web
analytics

In-Depth Bants

Sociopolitical Issue thread

Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by akui » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:08 am

We've talked about a lot of these kind of issues actually on our main :D&P: thread, so if anyone want to continue the discussion to a deeper level, welcome.

Recent ones:
- Otaku culture & objectifying/sexualizing women and children
- Heteronorm and LGBT+ representations
- Female sexuality erasure/gender stereotypes
- Celebritism

:daddy: :daddy: :daddy: :daddy: :daddy: :daddy:
akui
blobfish
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:50 am
Location: Snowy Pear
Pronouns: She/Her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by phamnotof » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:22 am

oh i'm glad this thread exists! didn't want to get into unnecessary arguments on the main thread, but i definitely welcome a place to vomit my thoughts
1) i don't enjoy people putting definitive labels on D (and P as well, but i'm keeping this mainly to D talk because it's easier and there's a lot more material to analyze) - that being said, i can't help but see him as not-straight and honestly do believe that his glass closet is only held together by heteronormativity.
2) but it's not exactly a state of being out, is it? like what he is doing might be consciously commenting on heteronormativity by just sort of being out rather than coming out, but we obviously can't deny that esp. YT does have a huge culture of queer baiting that makes this complicated in a whole another way. i honestly don't believe that's what he's doing though, the tone of it is different from what other YT ppl who've been known to do this. it does create uncertainty though, and there will always be people (some of whom will say it due to internalized homophobia, some of whom will say it for completely different reasons) who, at this point, can still dismiss it as being fanservice-y/queer-baity
3) like there's a whole mess of a) dismissing the queer struggles b) fetishizing them that is just really difficult to navigate in one conversation - coming out isn't easy, it's personal but inevitably also political
but i also don't think dan could flat out come out *more* on his channel than he has now without the question phan being resolved somehow - and i do think they want to keep whatever they are private, so this might be dan's way of still being himself while protecting his privacy
phamnotof
morning quiff
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:57 am

About labeling them, I actually think labeling Dan as bi is very valid, because he has labelled himself bi. I believe that we should respect someone's self identification, and unless he says specifically, that he doesn't know what he is, or that he's anything other than bisexual, I think we should respect his identity as a bisexual man.

Of course, then there is the argument about bisexual people being really protective of Dan's bisexual identity, because they want representation, and Dan, for all intents and purposes, has declared himself part of the bi community, which is very important.

I find it really weird how people are only against labels when it comes to bisexuality. Gay, lesbian, and straight people are all labelled as such in mainstream media, while it seems that people just don't seem to include bisexuality at all. Even in OITNB, which has a lead who could very easily be called bisexual, they only once mention the word, and most of the time, it's just, "straight turned lesbian", which gets old and annoying.

honestly, I get the "don't label them" argument for Phil, because he has mentioned that he doesn't like labels, but it really annoys me when people use that argument for Dan, because he has clearly labeled himself, and people refuse to acknowledge it, which I think is something a lot of bisexual people deal with.
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by phamnotof » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:20 am

jhamba wrote:About labeling them, I actually think labeling Dan as bi is very valid, because he has labelled himself bi. I believe that we should respect someone's self identification, and unless he says specifically, that he doesn't know what he is, or that he's anything other than bisexual, I think we should respect his identity as a bisexual man.

Of course, then there is the argument about bisexual people being really protective of Dan's bisexual identity, because they want representation, and Dan, for all intents and purposes, has declared himself part of the bi community, which is very important.

I find it really weird how people are only against labels when it comes to bisexuality. Gay, lesbian, and straight people are all labelled as such in mainstream media, while it seems that people just don't seem to include bisexuality at all. Even in OITNB, which has a lead who could very easily be called bisexual, they only once mention the word, and most of the time, it's just, "straight turned lesbian", which gets old and annoying.

honestly, I get the "don't label them" argument for Phil, because he has mentioned that he doesn't like labels, but it really annoys me when people use that argument for Dan, because he has clearly labeled himself, and people refuse to acknowledge it, which I think is something a lot of bisexual people deal with.


First off, thanks for the thoughtful response! I'm gonna try to explain why I'm not 100% comfortable with definitively (definitively being the operative word) labeling Dan as bi. I apologize for my awkward English and making this slightly about myself.

I basically have two things about this. First off, I should say that I *think* he's bi, it's the most logical conclusion to how he currently presents himself and is cemmented by many old posts.

But my thing with the whole "respecting his self-identification" is that I struggle to think of it as respecting when really, these are all statements he doesn't want me to have seen. He's deleted them all, they're to be found in password-protected archives - any definitive labels are in no way a part of his current online existence, and that's all by choice. We might speculate about the reasons for that, but it's a thing.

And look, I'm bi. Dan and Phil being successful and happy and bisexual and proud of that is important to me, too. But I also know that I went through a lot of labels in my days before I found one that felt really, really right. It's unlikely that after years of stating he's bi on various sites, Dan'd find another label more comfortable and right for himself, but it's happened to some people I know and will happen again. I mean, look at Alan Cumming's relationship and history with his labels.

It's a fair point that he's not stated anything other than "sexually ambiguous" publicly since he took down those dailybooths/formsprings/tweets, but he also did go through a period in which he made it really really obvious that he wanted people to think he was straight (for which, again, there were *reasons*, obviously) and while he never said it, he didn't say he was bi, either. I hope he does. I think it's gonna make a difference when it's something that you not only see (and he's been doing a great job of simply being himself shamelessly regardless of labes, which I love) but have a confirmation that you don't have to hunt for and that's easily accesible to his really broad, influential audience.
phamnotof
morning quiff
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:30 am

phamnotof wrote:First off, thanks for the thoughtful response! I'm gonna try to explain why I'm not 100% comfortable with definitively (definitively being the operative word) labeling Dan as bi. I apologize for my awkward English and making this slightly about myself.

I basically have two things about this. First off, I should say that I *think* he's bi, it's the most logical conclusion to how he currently presents himself and is cemmented by many old posts.

But my thing with the whole "respecting his self-identification" is that I struggle to think of it as respecting when really, these are all statements he doesn't want me to have seen. He's deleted them all, they're to be found in password-protected archives - any definitive labels are in no way a part of his current online existence, and that's all by choice. We might speculate about the reasons for that, but it's a thing.

And look, I'm bi. Dan and Phil being successful and happy and bisexual and proud of that is important to me, too. But I also know that I went through a lot of labels in my days before I found one that felt really, really right. It's unlikely that after years of stating he's bi on various sites, Dan'd find another label more comfortable and right for himself, but it's happened to some people I know and will happen again. I mean, look at Alan Cumming's relationship and history with his labels.

It's a fair point that he's not stated anything other than "sexually ambiguous" publicly since he took down those dailybooths/formsprings/tweets, but he also did go through a period in which he made it really really obvious that he wanted people to think he was straight (for which, again, there were *reasons*, obviously) and while he never said it, he didn't say he was bi, either. I hope he does. I think it's gonna make a difference when it's something that you not only see (and he's been doing a great job of simply being himself shamelessly regardless of labes, which I love) but have a confirmation that you don't have to hunt for and that's easily accesible to his really broad, influential audience.


while I think you have a point with the part about him not wanting those posts to be seen, by now, he's stopped freaking out about those posts. I feel like it's unfair to base our assumptions on what he has said in one small period of time where he was freaking out about his relationship.

As for the part about him being implying that he was straight, at that point, he only denied being gay. he didn't say that he was straight, or that he was not bisexual (and, he got those questions as much as he got "are you gay" questions). About these issues, Dan strongly implied things, but he never outright said them. And, looking at his pattern of answering things at that point of time, I'm going to take his bisexuality as gospel truth. If he states his sexuality, and it is anything other than bi, I will of course respect it, but until the time he denies being bisexual, or he states his sexuality as anything else, I will go on defending his bi status.

(also, about respecting what he doesn't want us to see, I think most of us are far beyond that point. If I have proof that he has lied, why would I go on pretending that his version of events is the truth?)
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by kooshka » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:35 am

phamnotof wrote:
But my thing with the whole "respecting his self-identification" is that I struggle to think of it as respecting when really, these are all statements he doesn't want me to have seen. He's deleted them all, they're to be found in password-protected archives - any definitive labels are in no way a part of his current online existence, and that's all by choice. We might speculate about the reasons for that, but it's a thing.


This exactly is why I'm a bit uncomfortable with labeling Dan - yes, he said that, but that was a long time ago and he has deleted those statements. These things change, take David Bowie for example; he has gone through stating that he's gay, then bi, then straight. It can put a lot of pressure on people if they see you as a representative of some sexual orientiation. And while I personally believe he's bi and admit it's nice to have famous people to represent us, unless he states out loud that he's bi again, we shouldn't force these labels on him.
kooshka
living flop
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jaej » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:40 am

i think very blunt, factual, 'i am 100% certain' statements on their sexualities are a bit uncomfortable. i'm pretty certain about the fact that they're bi/otherwise attracted to multiple genders (with phil identifying kind of... loosely? a 'yes, BUT i don't like labels much' thing) but there's no way i can really know when they (mostly dan) have made some slight answers that contradict it - even if they were very planned to do just that.
i trust their answers of how they identify, and i think their hinting and other statements and mannerisms etc all point to that as the most logical conclusion, but really people aren't strictly logical and i could be wrong, so i'd never claim that i definitely know how they identify without a more clear, definitive answer, even if i can easily cross out a few options of things that they are not.
i think, a lot of the time, people trying to find a way to prove that they dont identify that way turn to bizarre or often offensive statements just to find another option, which is way i'm never really swayed by other opinions. so, i definitely know how i think they identify, but i can't say i definitely know how the identify. i just think i at least have a good guess

in general i think speculation of the sexualities of real people can be fine, but it depends on the way you do it. speculation definitely =/= blunt statements, and shouldn't affect the person's life/career. because, as much as any sexual identities are fine, they arent always treated that way.
less so in the uk, but with some people i wouldn't feel comfortable even saying "i think X person is Y because of Z" because if that possibility got around much in their country/culture, it could basically be defamation because of how it would be seen. my icon's sexuality has been debated+hinted at for 10+ years to a point where it's not controversial to debate, but the only fans who know (ie, literal stalkers) keep a tight, tight lid on any actual proof because that could have ended his career in korea
Last edited by jaej on Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
my name is jaejmine masters and i have something to say. dan and phil have fucked up japan.
User avatar
jaej
procrastinator
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:27 am
Pronouns: they/he

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:43 am

kooshka wrote:
phamnotof wrote:
But my thing with the whole "respecting his self-identification" is that I struggle to think of it as respecting when really, these are all statements he doesn't want me to have seen. He's deleted them all, they're to be found in password-protected archives - any definitive labels are in no way a part of his current online existence, and that's all by choice. We might speculate about the reasons for that, but it's a thing.


This exactly is why I'm a bit uncomfortable with labeling Dan - yes, he said that, but that was a long time ago and he has deleted those statements. These things change, take David Bowie for example; he has gone through stating that he's gay, then bi, then straight. It can put a lot of pressure on people if they see you as a representative of some sexual orientiation. And while I personally believe he's bi and admit it's nice to have famous people to represent us, unless he states out loud that he's bi again, we shouldn't force these labels on him.


but, why are we assuming that Dan's sexuality has changed, even though he's never mentioned it changing? Would we have done the same if he had said he was gay, or if he had said he was straight?

The difference between Dan and David Bowie is that David Bowie actually mentioned when he changed what he identified as, which Dan certainly did not.

I don't understand why bisexual people have to regularly reaffirm their bisexuality, or be delegated back to the straight zone, or the "don't label them" zone
Last edited by jhamba on Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I realized that, as mod, encouraging mermaid_bloods post is a bad idea, even if I agree
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by kooshka » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:56 am

jhamba wrote:but, why are we assuming that Dan's sexuality has changed, even though he's never mentioned it changing? Would we have done the same if he had said he was gay, or if he had said he was straight?

The difference between Dan and David Bowie is that David Bowie actually mentioned when he changed what he identified as, which Dan certainly did not.

I don't understand why bisexual people have to regularly reaffirm their bisexuality, or be delegated back to the straight zone, or the "don't label them" zone


While I do agree that no one should feel the need to reaffirm their sexuality or be constantly proving that they are what they are (like bi people who've only dated people of one gender), I think it says something that he hasn't touched the subject in years and the only way you'd know he's bi is through digging some deleted stuff. He could be pan, he could simply just not care anymore about sex or gender. I mean I don't really mind people calling him bi that much since he hasn't corrected anyone doing that (like he did when people called him gay), it just makes me a bit uncomfortable.
kooshka
living flop
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jesp » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:59 am

Mod Note

Just a reminder to try and keep things civil in here.
Image
User avatar
jesp
amazing admin/genius
amazing admin/genius
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:35 pm

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jaej » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:59 am

jhamba wrote:
but, why are we assuming that Dan's sexuality has changed, even though he's never mentioned it changing? Would we have done the same if he had said he was gay, or if he had said he was straight?

The difference between Dan and David Bowie is that David Bowie actually mentioned when he changed what he identified as, which Dan certainly did not.

I don't understand why bisexual people have to regularly reaffirm their bisexuality, or be delegated back to the straight zone, or the "don't label them" zone



definitely!
the only reason that isnt just pure bi erasure for belief that he's straight after saying he's bi are the small, not quite 'im not gay' statements like 'i don't date men'. personally, they don't change my mind at all, but i see why people who already want to be convinced that dan is straight could place way more emphasis on this to come to a conclusion that his sexuality must have changed.
i don't have any reason not to believe them, but if they've made strong efforts to seem ambiguous rather than overtly queer then i'll quietly go along with them and accept that maybe it isnt best to focus on it much when talking about them elsewhere.
my name is jaejmine masters and i have something to say. dan and phil have fucked up japan.
User avatar
jaej
procrastinator
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:27 am
Pronouns: they/he

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by phamnotof » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:09 am

jhamba wrote:
kooshka wrote:
phamnotof wrote:
But my thing with the whole "respecting his self-identification" is that I struggle to think of it as respecting when really, these are all statements he doesn't want me to have seen. He's deleted them all, they're to be found in password-protected archives - any definitive labels are in no way a part of his current online existence, and that's all by choice. We might speculate about the reasons for that, but it's a thing.


This exactly is why I'm a bit uncomfortable with labeling Dan - yes, he said that, but that was a long time ago and he has deleted those statements. These things change, take David Bowie for example; he has gone through stating that he's gay, then bi, then straight. It can put a lot of pressure on people if they see you as a representative of some sexual orientiation. And while I personally believe he's bi and admit it's nice to have famous people to represent us, unless he states out loud that he's bi again, we shouldn't force these labels on him.


but, why are we assuming that Dan's sexuality has changed, even though he's never mentioned it changing? Would we have done the same if he had said he was gay, or if he had said he was straight?

The difference between Dan and David Bowie is that David Bowie actually mentioned when he changed what he identified as, which Dan certainly did not.

I don't understand why bisexual people have to regularly reaffirm their bisexuality, or be delegated back to the straight zone, or the "don't label them" zone


I guess for me at least, deleting all of those statements did feel like taking it back in a way. Like certainly separating it from his public existence, and that's what most of his audience has access to. I think he made a lot of statements that didn't flat out said he was straight, but strongly implied it, and those are statements that, unlike his bi-statements, are still very much out there. They're now being overwritten with him being increasingly more comfortable expressing attraction to men and I *love* it, but he's yet to relink them to a concrete label. Which leaves a little room for speculation - and I'm really not *assuming* his label has changed, I'm just saying that there's a chance it might have. I doubt it, but as I said, I'm not comfortable making *definitive* statements, that's really all. Not about whether he likes men, I think he's made that clear in a public way, but you can like men (and women) and link it to various labels that work for you.

/There's also a gap between what I think of his personal identity and what I think of where he's at in his journey of connecting that to his public/online persona./
phamnotof
morning quiff
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:23 am

I kind of understand the definitive statements thing, but I also feel like that one is redundant, because we can't make definitive statements about anything at all. I mean, they could literally be robots for all we know. But, we can make educated guesses, and that's all we can do about their lives. For example, we assume that they are closest to bryony and wirrow, and we really don't have much proof of that? The proof we do have is convincing, though, and it's same for the bisexuality thing for me

I mean, if you personally choose not to label them, it's okay, but it really annoys me when people try to police other people and stop them from calling Dan bisexual. It especially annoys me when people use the word gay or straight to define them, because there is definitely no proof for either.
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by fancybum » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:53 am

jhamba wrote:but, why are we assuming that Dan's sexuality has changed, even though he's never mentioned it changing? Would we have done the same if he had said he was gay, or if he had said he was straight?

I don't understand why bisexual people have to regularly reaffirm their bisexuality, or be delegated back to the straight zone, or the "don't label them" zone

This is why that post in the main thread saying they feel like Dan is 'just gay now' gave me such a strong negative reaction yesterday. Bisexual people are expected to walk this fine line of equal attraction, but the second you're in a same sex relationship, that means you're gay now and the second you're in a different-sex relationship, oh so you're straight.
"He's mentioning guys too much, so he must be gay". :headdesk1:
Nevermind that gay is the label he most consistently rejected for himself. It's extremely frustrating.

kooshka wrote:While I do agree that no one should feel the need to reaffirm their sexuality or be constantly proving that they are what they are (like bi people who've only dated people of one gender), I think it says something that he hasn't touched the subject in years and the only way you'd know he's bi is through digging some deleted stuff. He could be pan, he could simply just not care anymore about sex or gender. I mean I don't really mind people calling him bi that much since he hasn't corrected anyone doing that (like he did when people called him gay), it just makes me a bit uncomfortable.

You may disagree, but I feel like he's living his life as a bi person right now. He doesn't openly discuss sexuality itself, sure, but he's (more and more with each passing day) not bothered with projecting an image of 'straightness'. And he clearly was bothered about it in 2012, so if that's what we're going to base negating his 2009 statement on (even though he himself never took any of the very available opportunities to do so in explicit terms), can we base everything he's done from 2014-16 on negating 2012? I see more consistency now in his words and actions than in 2012 (where I mostly just see fear and panic).

I'm always in this weird limbo of wanting to agree and nod along with people who want to live in a perfect world where sexuality doesn't matter so can we all just stop talking about it (because yeah wouldn't that be great), but that's not this world. If D&P don't want to 'officially come out' in any way, that's cool. But it does matter to people (like me, yes I'm selfish) who are queer and want to see people that they can identify with who are living fulfilling lives. And seeing Dan get more open and less afraid (?) with who he is makes me happy because, even without a label, he's normalising.. queerness? Casually mentioning men and women in the same breath as if it's totally fine (because it is, and such things contribute to that eventual 'perfect world' where it doesn't matter) is important and it kills me that people still want to brush off most of it as jokes/?baiting/generally insignificant.
It is significant, or else he wouldn't do it. He overthinks everything he does and says and posts, so specifically mentioning males in sexual contexts is deliberate af.

Somebody else in the main thread insinuated these mentions are just 'fuelling the rumour mill' (paraphrased) more than just coming out would, but look at what happened with Shane Dawson when he came out: Katie Couric (and sundry) phoning him up for an interview. He encouraged it to some extent, sure, but all of a sudden he's the face of bisexuality on the internet. What would happen to somebody with no gross past controversies who's also on national radio etc.? People would be falling all over themselves to get him as the perfect spokesperson for their LBGT+ cause, and dude he just wants to make videos and stay private (nevermind what a coming out of some kind from either of them would do in terms of phan-speculation/confirmation-> the two are intertwined for D&P).
So he's out without coming out. I'm rambling I'll stop now. But thank you for this thread.

I really really hope actual thumbs come back because I can't stand reading posts that say everything that needs to be said and just passing them by.
Thanks and have a great day! Oil me
Image
User avatar
fancybum
angel bean
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:06 pm
Location: bork

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:05 am

Off-Topic :
fancybum wrote:I really really hope actual thumbs come back because I can't stand reading posts that say everything that needs to be said and just passing them by.


our host doesn't have those (I mean, theoretically, to do this, we'd have to shift hosts, which would be a real pain, so I'd say it's pretty much impossible) :(
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by phamnotof » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:08 am

fancybum wrote:
jhamba wrote:but, why are we assuming that Dan's sexuality has changed, even though he's never mentioned it changing? Would we have done the same if he had said he was gay, or if he had said he was straight?

I don't understand why bisexual people have to regularly reaffirm their bisexuality, or be delegated back to the straight zone, or the "don't label them" zone

This is why that post in the main thread saying they feel like Dan is 'just gay now' gave me such a strong negative reaction yesterday. Bisexual people are expected to walk this fine line of equal attraction, but the second you're in a same sex relationship, that means you're gay now and the second you're in a different-sex relationship, oh so you're straight.
"He's mentioning guys too much, so he must be gay". :headdesk1:
Nevermind that gay is the label he most consistently rejected for himself. It's extremely frustrating.

kooshka wrote:While I do agree that no one should feel the need to reaffirm their sexuality or be constantly proving that they are what they are (like bi people who've only dated people of one gender), I think it says something that he hasn't touched the subject in years and the only way you'd know he's bi is through digging some deleted stuff. He could be pan, he could simply just not care anymore about sex or gender. I mean I don't really mind people calling him bi that much since he hasn't corrected anyone doing that (like he did when people called him gay), it just makes me a bit uncomfortable.

You may disagree, but I feel like he's living his life as a bi person right now. He doesn't openly discuss sexuality itself, sure, but he's (more and more with each passing day) not bothered with projecting an image of 'straightness'. And he clearly was bothered about it in 2012, so if that's what we're going to base negating his 2009 statement on (even though he himself never took any of the very available opportunities to do so in explicit terms), can we base everything he's done from 2014-16 on negating 2012? I see more consistency now in his words and actions than in 2012 (where I mostly just see fear and panic).

I'm always in this weird limbo of wanting to agree and nod along with people who want to live in a perfect world where sexuality doesn't matter so can we all just stop talking about it (because yeah wouldn't that be great), but that's not this world. If D&P don't want to 'officially come out' in any way, that's cool. But it does matter to people (like me, yes I'm selfish) who are queer and want to see people that they can identify with who are living fulfilling lives. And seeing Dan get more open and less afraid (?) with who he is makes me happy because, even without a label, he's normalising.. queerness? Casually mentioning men and women in the same breath as if it's totally fine (because it is, and such things contribute to that eventual 'perfect world' where it doesn't matter) is important and it kills me that people still want to brush off most of it as jokes/?baiting/generally insignificant.
It is significant, or else he wouldn't do it. He overthinks everything he does and says and posts, so specifically mentioning males in sexual contexts is deliberate af.

Somebody else in the main thread insinuated these mentions are just 'fuelling the rumour mill' (paraphrased) more than just coming out would, but look at what happened with Shane Dawson when he came out: Katie Couric (and sundry) phoning him up for an interview. He encouraged it to some extent, sure, but all of a sudden he's the face of bisexuality on the internet. What would happen to somebody with no gross past controversies who's also on national radio etc.? People would be falling all over themselves to get him as the perfect spokesperson for their LBGT+ cause, and dude he just wants to make videos and stay private (nevermind what a coming out of some kind from either of them would do in terms of phan-speculation/confirmation-> the two are intertwined for D&P).
So he's out without coming out. I'm rambling I'll stop now. But thank you for this thread.

I really really hope actual thumbs come back because I can't stand reading posts that say everything that needs to be said and just passing them by.


I largely agree witg this, esp. the bit about his newer statements largely negating 2012, but I'm just talking about the label here - and there's a lot of identities on the queer spectrum that include being attracted to men & women. So yeah, he probs identifies as bi in private, and he's certainly not living like your typical closet case trying to convince you he's straight, he's certainly not-straight in his public presentation of self, but you can be that outside of having a label.

And I definitely agree with you about him normalizing queerness, but sadly, we do live in an imprefect world that's also going to brush off what he does as fanservice/queer baiting (both which does happen on YT, too, sadly), and with this great thing of living out come drawbacks in the form of leaving room for heteronormative mindsets who wanna deny what's right in front of them.

and yeah, i do definitely think that him not wanting to be a spokesperson for the bi community (while also being protective of his privacy in general) is a big part of why things are the way they are and I'm really not judging him, this is all friendly analysis. :)
phamnotof
morning quiff
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by phamnotof » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:09 am

jhamba wrote:I kind of understand the definitive statements thing, but I also feel like that one is redundant, because we can't make definitive statements about anything at all. I mean, they could literally be robots for all we know. But, we can make educated guesses, and that's all we can do about their lives. For example, we assume that they are closest to bryony and wirrow, and we really don't have much proof of that? The proof we do have is convincing, though, and it's same for the bisexuality thing for me

I mean, if you personally choose not to label them, it's okay, but it really annoys me when people try to police other people and stop them from calling Dan bisexual. It especially annoys me when people use the word gay or straight to define them, because there is definitely no proof for either.


:platonic: :respekt2:
phamnotof
morning quiff
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by kooshka » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:17 am

Queer is a nice term when talking about him, it's quite open and while it's still a label, it's less defining than bi, straight or gay or whatever you have. And I have to say for clarifications sake that I'm much less irked about people calling him bi than straight or gay since it's obvious he's neither of those. I'm mostly bothered with the subject just because I feel like his public persona just doesn't wish to be labeled, I don't know how he himself views the subject but other people will judge people through labels and it might not be desirable for some.

(Oh and I also wanted to say that you all have very good points! It's a good conversation, I love how civil this place seems to be)
kooshka
living flop
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by Catallena » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:03 am

kooshka wrote:Queer is a nice term when talking about him, it's quite open and while it's still a label, it's less defining than bi, straight or gay or whatever you have.


Queer is still a slur to many people though. I know the LGBT community is becoming more and more accepted and that especially young people are taking it back (which is great if that's how people want to identify of course) but I'd be careful with applying the label to others. If you want to label yourself as queer that's cool and no one should give you crap for it, but don't do it to other people. You don't know how they think about that word or what to associate it with. A friend of mine who has trouble putting a label on her sexuality (and doesn't know whether she even wants to) recently had to deal with someone who insisted on calling her queer which triggered her really badly.

-
In the main thread someone brought up being worried about teens doing things like anal because they see obsess over their (cis gay male) ships doing it. It reminded me of a recent development on Tumblr I'm worried about. Lately, there's an insane increase of NSFW Phan blogs. It's not a new concept, but it was usually done by adult fans. Now there are 13 to 16 year olds with porn blogs where they reblog (hardcore) porn and share 'headcanons' about Dan and Phil's sex life.
The problem is that 80% of these contain very heavy BDSM themes and I don't think that's right. It's good if teens kinda know what is out there and are aware of certain kinks so that they don't feel like 'freaks' if they fantasize about things that aren't common, but a 15 year old with no sexual experience whose only knowledge about sexual relationships comes from fanfiction writing things like dom/sub, little!dan, daddy kinks, degradation and extreme age gaps makes me uncomfortable. Especially when those same 15 year olds talk about what those kinks mean to them personally. The age gap thing especially, I've seen a 21 year old phandom member LDR date a 15 year old and it wasn't pretty.
And while writing doesn't hurt people, enough grown ass adults got themselves into trouble in their bedrooms after Fifty Shades Of Trash. I don't wanna know what teenagers come up with after reading fanfiction like that. I had a friend in high school who messed around with blood play during sex because she saw it on the internet... yeah you can guess how that ended.

Basically... Should I just shut up and let the kids explore their sexuality and kinks this way (after all I read my first -extremely vanilla- 'lemon' at the tender age of 13 too) or am I not a crazy concerned old person and am I allowed to be concerned?
Stan is only one letter away from Satan.
Image
User avatar
Catallena
cat whiskers
 
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:56 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by phamnotof » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:30 am

can I just say that I love this thread?

Catallena wrote:Queer is still a slur to many people though. I know the LGBT community is becoming more and more accepted and that especially young people are taking it back (which is great if that's how people want to identify of course) but I'd be careful with applying the label to others. If you want to label yourself as queer that's cool and no one should give you crap for it, but don't do it to other people. You don't know how they think about that word or what to associate it with. A friend of mine who has trouble putting a label on her sexuality (and doesn't know whether she even wants to) recently had to deal with someone who insisted on calling her queer which triggered her really badly.


yep, exactly, that's my thing with the word, too, I wish we had an umbrella term for not-straight that didn't have harmful connotations for some people but we really don't, as far as I know

and re: smut & teenagers -
1) it's not a new thing, really, before fanfic, it was looking at porn and/or porn magazines at an early age. i started reading fanfic at, idk, 10? and i will say, i know more about consent and safety and kink communities and how they work than all of my college friends, and that's not meant to sound braggy, but like, i had to talk a (female) friend out of trying anal sex recently (who's 20, for the record) without prep & lube. so if anything, fanfic and what fandoms talk about is MUCH more complex than education people outside of them generally get, unless they're lucky with schools and people close to them/really really willing to look by themselves
2) that being said, what i'm uncomfortable with *is* the lack of education when it comes to stuff like BDSM/kink. i think exploring is great, but sadly, it's simplified and misunderstood by many people and it can lead to trouble. but i think this calls for improving how we talk about it more than anything, i do still think that exploring is healthy regardless of your age. learning what you like early ideally leads to looking for more info & not running into trouble when you *are* ready to start actually doing it
3) ugh, let me insert a little whine about how most of the phandom talks about dom/sub dynamics & how so many people don't seem to understand that their correlation with top/bottom dynamics isn't a given. and generally, conversations about top/bottom dynamics, those make me weep - they lack complexity, are heteronormative af, and - frankly - show a misunderstanding of how bowel movement works in general
phamnotof
morning quiff
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:34 am

Catallena wrote:
kooshka wrote:Queer is a nice term when talking about him, it's quite open and while it's still a label, it's less defining than bi, straight or gay or whatever you have.


Queer is still a slur to many people though. I know the LGBT community is becoming more and more accepted and that especially young people are taking it back (which is great if that's how people want to identify of course) but I'd be careful with applying the label to others. If you want to label yourself as queer that's cool and no one should give you crap for it, but don't do it to other people. You don't know how they think about that word or what to associate it with. A friend of mine who has trouble putting a label on her sexuality (and doesn't know whether she even wants to) recently had to deal with someone who insisted on calling her queer which triggered her really badly.

-
In the main thread someone brought up being worried about teens doing things like anal because they see obsess over their (cis gay male) ships doing it. It reminded me of a recent development on Tumblr I'm worried about. Lately, there's an insane increase of NSFW Phan blogs. It's not a new concept, but it was usually done by adult fans. Now there are 13 to 16 year olds with porn blogs where they reblog (hardcore) porn and share 'headcanons' about Dan and Phil's sex life.
The problem is that 80% of these contain very heavy BDSM themes and I don't think that's right. It's good if teens kinda know what is out there and are aware of certain kinks so that they don't feel like 'freaks' if they fantasize about things that aren't common, but a 15 year old with no sexual experience whose only knowledge about sexual relationships comes from fanfiction writing things like dom/sub, little!dan, daddy kinks, degradation and extreme age gaps makes me uncomfortable. Especially when those same 15 year olds talk about what those kinks mean to them personally. The age gap thing especially, I've seen a 21 year old phandom member LDR date a 15 year old and it wasn't pretty.
And while writing doesn't hurt people, enough grown ass adults got themselves into trouble in their bedrooms after Fifty Shades Of Trash. I don't wanna know what teenagers come up with after reading fanfiction like that. I had a friend in high school who messed around with blood play during sex because she saw it on the internet... yeah you can guess how that ended.

Basically... Should I just shut up and let the kids explore their sexuality and kinks this way (after all I read my first -extremely vanilla- 'lemon' at the tender age of 13 too) or am I not a crazy concerned old person and am I allowed to be concerned?


Actually, I've had a few of these concerns myself. While I usually think that children should decide what they should do, and how they should do things by themselves, I find the general trend of fanfics very disturbing sometimes.

I do think that the fanfic is more of a reflection of larger society than of fandom culture, though. while fandom culture can be extremely depraved, those people often recognize that their smut is depraved. On the other hand, I see a lot of fucked up fanfiction, which is romanticized, and the author doesn't even realize they're writing a toxic relationship.

And, the uncommon power play fetishes make me really uncomfortable, too, but I think that's my problem. I do think that kids should definitely be able to explore their kinks and sexuality this way. I think being exposed to things like this at a young age will make you realize what a silly concept some of the things were, and it can lead you to be better educated, just because you're exposed to so much, and you can make your own opinions on things like this.

The part about a 21 year old dating a 15 year old is the most disturbing part about what you have just described. I think adults should know better than to date children. I don't think that situation in question is a part of fandom culture, I think it's an adult using an alternative subculture to prey on their victims (this is very very common). I don't know how situations like that can be prevented. I think parenting your children well is the only way, but so many parents aren't equipped to teach their children things like this? This can go into a whole other essay, haha
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by kooshka » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:44 am

Catallena wrote:
kooshka wrote:Queer is a nice term when talking about him, it's quite open and while it's still a label, it's less defining than bi, straight or gay or whatever you have.


Queer is still a slur to many people though. I know the LGBT community is becoming more and more accepted and that especially young people are taking it back (which is great if that's how people want to identify of course) but I'd be careful with applying the label to others. If you want to label yourself as queer that's cool and no one should give you crap for it, but don't do it to other people. You don't know how they think about that word or what to associate it with. A friend of mine who has trouble putting a label on her sexuality (and doesn't know whether she even wants to) recently had to deal with someone who insisted on calling her queer which triggered her really badly.

Good point. I'm from a non-English speaking country so here it's a relatively unknown term for anyone who's not LGBTA+ themselves, so it's fairly positive here. I tend to forget that, sorry.

As for the other point, with people that young, it's really easy to over/underestimete them. So saying "you're too young for this!!" doesn't apply to everyone, but some people ARE too immature to understand sexual stuff to their full end and might have too lighthearted approach to these things. (TMI, idk maybe, but I found my kink in the tender age of 16 and practised it and turned out ok). I think the point should be in telling people about the safe ways of enjoying whatever the things they like are, which 50 shades failed to do miserably. Like Dan said, there's nothing wrong with anal sex, but you can practise it in a wrong way (applies to all sex basically).
kooshka
living flop
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jaej » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:51 am

looking back as someone who recently turned 19, it's not so much a case of people being too young, but of young people who are still vulnerable or likely to pick these things up who are being exposed to unhealthy behaviours. it's not a case of reading kinky fics but of reading that show something being practiced unsafely and praised.

a lot of those blogs also write about degradation as a kink a lot. even without getting into the actual problematic aspects of those blogs, it's really bizarre to me that people are sending in asks about people they dont know and who they dont know whether or not would consent to these things. one i saw in particular had a lot of 'omg do a fic where phil makes fun of dan's small dick!!' which is just a bit... unusual when it's about 2 other people who you do not know and who probably wouldn't actually, like, approve of that.

aside from that, issues with these blogs (more than with fanfic)
- degradation seems to general be shown as 'i will treat this male as a woman and use gendered terms/slurs
- the misunderstanding of actual sugar daddy stuff is a bit worrying. one of my close friends has had daddies before, and was explaining to me the way it is far more like sex work, and not having a boyfriend who's 4 years old. there's a difference between that and enjoying calling someone daddy, and the distinction isnt really shown
- the power dynamic stuff always leads to someone being completely submissive and getting no say in what happens and i don't like young people seeing that as normal. in general, i see the respect for dan in these communities as, like... nothing.
- 'if you're having trouble in a relationship because one person is having emotional difficulty with themself/their sexuality, the correct answer is to have rough sex with them and degrade them and make it clear that you're a more important, powerful person!'
- the age/power gap stuff is definitely worrying. not much else to say.i mean, the actual age/power gap makes me nervous to look back on

i think having a community giving teenagers a safe space to have teenage feelings and discuss sex is good, but those sites definitely arent the spaces for that. i mean, one i saw actually tried some kind of matchmaking service at one point. it had a list of people with their ages (some of them literally 13!!!!) listing if they were dom or sub and what their kinks were and a link to their ask box :rage: :philtrash:
my name is jaejmine masters and i have something to say. dan and phil have fucked up japan.
User avatar
jaej
procrastinator
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:27 am
Pronouns: they/he

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by PolarFox » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:59 am

I feel like there has been generally alot more NSFW blogs on tumblr and people reblogging nsfw posts. Specially when I'm at family gatherings when I don't want to talk to people, so I just scroll. And it kind of makes me feel uncomfortable, seeing all these people aged 14-17 having these blogs, since I'm few months close to my 18 birthday and I have too many personal irl experiences with these stuff (long story of me dating three years older manipulative dude because I wanted to exorcise the homo out of me... Or become the sexualised bisexual, according to his wishes. Little did my gay heart know what I was doing). And the people usually know sex only from reading fanfictions.

Talking about your kinks and sexuality and exploring them is fine, I guess, as long as you're of age of consent (here it's 15) or preferably adult, when it comes to kinks. Also reading something more educational than fanfictions ffs. And some kinks are toxic af and should stay in fantasies.

When it comes to my case, I was lucky I didn't come out of all this with nothing more than regret of my past choices and angriness at my much younger myself (and I'm still 17 ffs), but that might be that I live in a country that is very open about sex (as long as it's two cis hetero people lol) and stuff, but a lot of people in other countries aren't that lucky.

And the age gaps, for as much as I have slight thing for those, aren't good for people to write about. 18 and 22? Well knock yourselves out, but 13 and 16? Nope nope nopity nope go away with that. That very rarely ends well. And not gonna even speak about bigger age gaps. I could ramble for hours about one of my best friends, who is 18 in a relationship with 28 years old dude. Not very healthy relationship I must say, as they, even both adults, are in different stages of life and stuff.

And our favourite power dynamics. I always cringe so much. Nothing like that is set in stone and people seem to forget, that:
1) powerbottoms exist
2) the submissive one should be the one in charge basicaly, having a say on what is okay and what is not.
3) VERSATILE PEOPLE ARE A THING

Also BDSM? I'm not shaming anyone who is into it, but jfc, wait 'till you're proper adult and then, before you do anything, study how to do it properly without anyone getting hurt.
It's maybe nice to fantasize about things, but that doesn't equall them being pleasant irl.
So pls, be concerned, educate kids. And mainly, educate kids about consent, legal age and noncishetero sex. We need it as salt. I mean, I would have no idea how to not straight sex without a lot of googling and watching educational LGBTQ+ youtubers. I mean, our school sex ed was basicaly "here, use condom if you don't want to get std and buy hormonal birth control so you don't get pregnant" for two hours when we were 15. And that was it.
...am I running off-topic? Soz if I am. And soz if I don't make sense. :facepalm:

To the sexuality discussion: don't stick a label on him. I would stick (haha) with "probably not straight", till proven othervise. Maybe we'll once see "reasons why dan's a fail" sexuality struggles edition. Or maybe he'll talk about it in a liveshow some day. Idk. Bisexual could work too, I guess.

Edit: I'm writing this for so long that few another amazing posts have been posted and I agree with y'all.
Image
Awww! You clicked on my signature!
User avatar
PolarFox
procrastinator
 
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:00 am
Location: Alderaan
Pronouns: she/her

Re: Sociopolitical Issue thread

PostPosted by jhamba » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:04 am

jaej wrote:looking back as someone who recently turned 19, it's not so much a case of people being too young, but of young people who are still vulnerable or likely to pick these things up who are being exposed to unhealthy behaviours. it's not a case of reading kinky fics but of reading that show something being practiced unsafely and praised.

a lot of those blogs also write about degradation as a kink a lot. even without getting into the actual problematic aspects of those blogs, it's really bizarre to me that people are sending in asks about people they dont know and who they dont know whether or not would consent to these things. one i saw in particular had a lot of 'omg do a fic where phil makes fun of dan's small dick!!' which is just a bit... unusual when it's about 2 other people who you do not know and who probably wouldn't actually, like, approve of that.

aside from that, issues with these blogs (more than with fanfic)
- degradation seems to general be shown as 'i will treat this male as a woman and use gendered terms/slurs
- the misunderstanding of actual sugar daddy stuff is a bit worrying. one of my close friends has had daddies before, and was explaining to me the way it is far more like sex work, and not having a boyfriend who's 4 years old. there's a difference between that and enjoying calling someone daddy, and the distinction isnt really shown
- the power dynamic stuff always leads to someone being completely submissive and getting no say in what happens and i don't like young people seeing that as normal. in general, i see the respect for dan in these communities as, like... nothing.
- 'if you're having trouble in a relationship because one person is having emotional difficulty with themself/their sexuality, the correct answer is to have rough sex with them and degrade them and make it clear that you're a more important, powerful person!'
- the age/power gap stuff is definitely worrying. not much else to say.i mean, the actual age/power gap makes me nervous to look back on

i think having a community giving teenagers a safe space to have teenage feelings and discuss sex is good, but those sites definitely arent the spaces for that. i mean, one i saw actually tried some kind of matchmaking service at one point. it had a list of people with their ages (some of them literally 13!!!!) listing if they were dom or sub and what their kinks were and a link to their ask box :rage: :philtrash:


I always love your posts so much. The last paragraph is a really good point. At what point does fanfiction stop being a safe space for teenagers to discuss sex, and start becoming a place for them to learn shitty ideals? But, on the other hand, the general tumblr culture is pretty good with consent, and enough exposure to that is helpful.

I don't know. It's a complex topic, and not just related to fandom.
jiggly wrote:dalel is dead, phalel lives.
User avatar
jhamba
hobbit hair
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:00 am
Pronouns: she/her

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

The 2017 Dan and Phil Survey!