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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by blueapple_x » Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:58 pm

alittledizzy wrote:
coffeepenguin wrote:
blueapple_x wrote:So I've been curious about this for a long time because everyone seems to have different definitions for certain words and oftentimes use things synonymously. I figured I'd post about it here.

How do you define fanservice and shipbaiting and queerbaiting? What makes these three things different from each other? How do they apply to D+P? How do they NOT apply to D+P? Please give specific examples if possible.


yay definitions! :love2:

I like your definition of fanservice, but with the other two, I feel like it's not relevant if it's a joke or not. Here's my attempt:

Fanservice (in fiction/art/media/etc.) - intentionally including something or depicting something in a way that is known to please fans without it being necessary for the story/the message of the piece. Pretty much the same definition could be applied to youtubers, in Deppy's case, for example, everything PINOF for the last three years at least is fanservice, talking about ships and bands they don't particularly care about is fanservice. The thing with fanservice is people involved are generally open about admitting it is what it is.

Shipbaiting (in fiction and stuff) - intentionally hinting at a possibility of two (or more?) characters starting a relationship while never or only in the very end going through with it. Could be viewed as a form of fanservice, if the fans are ok with it and accept that the ship won't become canon. The way johnlock is treated by Sherlock writers is shipbaiting (what with many different characters consistently assuming they're a couple and them being described as perfect partners for each other). Usually denied by people involved in it. When applied to youtubers, it's kissy thumbnails, boyfriend tags, some jokes could be viewed as this. In Deppy's case, that "Dan and Phil sex tape" is shipbaiting, half of their early online interaction is shipbaiting if they were not together at the time, Dan and Tyler's collabs are somewhat shipbaity, imo, but I guess it's just how Tyler rolls. Voldy is shipbaiting af, if we are to believe the prank excuse (which I don't), because it doesn't contain any reference to it being fake in the video itself or in the description (like, if it was a prank, there would have been another video, or comment, or something for the reveal later, so in any case for some time that video would have been viewed as real without anything to immediately disprove it, that's textbook shipbaiting for me)

Queerbaiting (in fiction and stuff) - intentionally coding a character as not straight with subtext (clothes, hobbies, manner of speaking, plot devices) while never confirming or outright contradicting/denying it in the text or outside of it (for example, in interviews). Started a long time ago as a legitimate way of introducing LGBTQ+ characters that only a part of the audience would recognise as such and the homophobic bosses wouldn't notice, nowadays, as LGBTQ+ characters "earned" their place in the mainstream, is more about not recognising at the beginning that a character could be read as not straight, then realising it's a popular belief with the fans, playing it up for some time until, inevitably, disproving it and facing a well earned backlash. Teen Wolf is a perfect example with the way the possibility of a character being bisexual was handled (I mean, on some point, Stiles's being hit on by a girl he previously saw dating another girl, so he says he thought she liked girls. She replies that you can like both and that she also likes boys. Then she asks if Stiles likes girls, which he confirms, and also if he likes boys - cue his confused face and a cut. WTF). For me, queerbaiting is inherently harmful and can't ever be brushed off as a joke, because it's hard not being straight in our very heterosexist world as it is. With real people it's more complicated, but, for example, female authors of published gay erotica writing under male pseudonyms are queerbaiting. In Deppy's case, what Dan's doing with all his male attraction mentions is either him being bi or queerbaiting, I don't see any other possibility.


I'm not even gonna answer the question about defining the terms, because this is basically what I would have said. Fantastic post, all very well said, and very reflective of the actual definitions of those terms - complete with intention, which plays a huge part in each of them.

If we're looking at the grand picture here, so far it seems like everyone is saying essentially the same/similar things for the most part or things I agree with anyway.

coffeepenguin, you went pretty in depth with the definitions and I enjoyed reading it :thanks: . The ones I gave were meant to be very basic and more directed to youtubers, so I guess I should've clarified that (sorry lol). When I said "it's not always obvious if it's a joke/fake for shipbaiting and queerbaiting, which I'd argue is relevant/applicable, I meant whoever is doing it is more or less trying to bait people into thinking one thing about a situation, that isn't actually true/isn't going to happen (hence my usage of joke/fake).

dizzy, I agree with the intention being a huge part of everything. Nowadays, I think deppy's intentions are fanservice. Whether or not each fan reads it that way is another story.

melon lord and nephilimcat, Thanks for giving specific examples of how you thought the definitions would hypothetically apply/not apply to D+P. You brought up some good points!
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by eevee » Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:58 pm

Going off of the baiting question, do you think it's still queer or ship baiting if what they're baiting ends up being canon in the end? For example, Sherlock isn't over yet, yet it's a posterchild for baiting. What if they end up together in the end?
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by blueapple_x » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:11 pm

eevee wrote:Going off of the baiting question, do you think it's still queer or ship baiting if what they're baiting ends up being canon in the end? For example, Sherlock isn't over yet, yet it's a posterchild for baiting. What if they end up together in the end?

I think you'd have to look at each moment individually and the intention of the person/people in each moment. I'm going to bring it back to D+P just so everyone's on the same page.

For argument's sake:
If D+P were never together at any point in 2009/2010 and were purposely fabricating things/manipulating the audience to think phan is real, I'd consider that shipbaiting at the time.

If D+P later became a couple long after they had stopped shipbaiting, technically 2009/2010 would still be shipbaiting to me because at the time they were never a couple. For anything after they stopped shipbaiting, I wouldn't consider it shipbaiting if it became canon in the end.

Sorry if I worded that in a confusing way lol
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by alittledizzy » Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:15 pm

eevee wrote:Going off of the baiting question, do you think it's still queer or ship baiting if what they're baiting ends up being canon in the end? For example, Sherlock isn't over yet, yet it's a posterchild for baiting. What if they end up together in the end?


If john and Sherlock get together in the end its not baiting, it was storyline progression. I think real people can't actually be compared to fictional characters in these situations because fictional characters are a story being planned and manipulated by writers, whereas real people are living real lives and can't anticipate the consequences of their actions or what obstacles/plot twists are gonna happen.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by nephilimcat » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:16 am

eevee wrote:Going off of the baiting question, do you think it's still queer or ship baiting if what they're baiting ends up being canon in the end? For example, Sherlock isn't over yet, yet it's a posterchild for baiting. What if they end up together in the end?


When it comes to real people: No. When you are together and hint that, I wouldn't call it shipbaiting. Especially when it comes to queer couples, it would be more of a coming out journey for them.

When it comes to fictional people: Depends on the writers. If they planned to write the characters as a couple or came to the realisation that they would be cute together, I wouldn't clarify it as shipbaiting. But if they just denied even the possibility all the time while simultaneously throwing in references that keep the viewers interested and suddenly the characters realise they love each other after seasons of not making any process, I think it is shipbaiting.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by spider » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:35 pm

coffeepenguin wrote:I really don't think there would be much backlash if they handled it correctly, and someday, sooner or later, they'll have to, they can't remain silent forever.

They can remain silent forever if they want to. Hope they will not but it is not impossible.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by coffeepenguin » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:10 pm

spider wrote:
coffeepenguin wrote:I really don't think there would be much backlash if they handled it correctly, and someday, sooner or later, they'll have to, they can't remain silent forever.

They can remain silent forever if they want to. Hope they will not but it is not impossible.


Yeah, I guess, you're right. I've just tried to come up with different scenarios, but in all of them they actually have a possibility to completely haru their past. It was wishful thinking from my part, damn Deppy for being so good at that :sadgarbage:
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by eevee » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:17 pm

coffeepenguin wrote:
spider wrote:
coffeepenguin wrote:I really don't think there would be much backlash if they handled it correctly, and someday, sooner or later, they'll have to, they can't remain silent forever.

They can remain silent forever if they want to. Hope they will not but it is not impossible.


Yeah, I guess, you're right. I've just tried to come up with different scenarios, but in all of them they actually have a possibility to completely haru their past. It was wishful thinking from my part, damn Deppy for being so good at that :sadgarbage:


I agree that they could just stay silent forever. They've gotten it down to a science. They're so used to living that way, it must be second nature to them at this point. Obviously it doesn't bother them that much or they would've come out by now. It's been so long and they still haven't confirmed anything, on the contrary they deny certain things (and we get #busgate). Honestly, when I discovered them in 2011, I never thought in 2016 that I'd be talking about if they shared a bed on a tour bus or not. They really surprised me. But I feel like at this point, they're very set in their ways. I don't see anything changing right away.

It makes me sad, but obviously it doesn't make them sad, so I can't really complain. Yes I do wish we'd get an answer but that's an inherently selfish thing to wish. Maybe in 2023 we'll still be discussing them, just like this. Maybe by then, everything will be different. Honestly we don't know. But I'm not very optimistic to be honest.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by papierklemmen » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:25 am

this is kind of on topic and offtopic at the same time, with everyone's definition of queerbaiting and what not (and we know the term is fairly recent) but i've been thinking about the infamous charlieskies and how it might have looked like he he was trying to out dan, but his meltdown aside, i think some stuff he said (including his "phan" jokes), looked like he, along with being a bitter asshole, was sometimes frustrated that they played up the ambiguity.
like this tweet:
Image

on one hand it could be interpreted as him hinting at their sexualties, on the other... idk to me it sounds a lot more like resentment towards queerbaiting.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by nephilimcat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:26 am

papierklemmen wrote:this is kind of on topic and offtopic at the same time, with everyone's definition of queerbaiting and what not (and we know the term is fairly recent) but i've been thinking about the infamous charlieskies and how it might have looked like he he was trying to out dan, but his meltdown aside, i think some stuff he said (including his "phan" jokes), looked like he, along with being a bitter asshole, was sometimes frustrated that they played up the ambiguity.
like this tweet:
Image

on one hand it could be interpreted as him hinting at their sexualties, on the other... idk to me it sounds a lot more like resentment towards queerbaiting.


Maybe, but some of the tweets are clearly made to tease a queer person in the closet. You can say all you want about Phan, but if Dan is straight, I'll eat a broom. He even addressed his sexuality on several occasions recently, all hinting at male attraction but not labeling himself. Since Dan isn't disrespectful, I highly doubt he'd do that if he was straight.
Charlie probably knew or assumed something, decided to tease him and then Dan got defensive. Why would he? As a non-homophobic straight person, you would laugh it off or something, especially since Dan is known for avoiding drama. So it was clearly something that hit a spot and brought out the "best" in Dan. Ever since Charlie found out how easy he could tease him, he continued. I don't think all of the things he said are true, but there's probably at least some truth in them. I doubt Charlie was trying to hint something, out Dan and Phil or call them out as his main goal, I just think he wanted to mess with Dan and found it funny how easy it was to provoke him.
In my opinion, that's all there is to it: Charlie behaved like an asshole and Dan was too deep in the closet to behave reasonably.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by IckleMissMayhem » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:48 am

papierklemmen wrote:on one hand it could be interpreted as him hinting at their sexualties, on the other... idk to me it sounds a lot more like resentment towards queerbaiting.


If anyone was doing any baiting, it's Charlie.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by papierklemmen » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:23 am

And here I go, making the same mistake you spent a few pages talking about :facepalm: I of course meant that he was expressing resentment towards shipbaiting, not queerbaiting.

His whole twitter meltdown about "balls" :roll: was definitely addressing Dan's sexuality specifically, be it that he knew/suspected that Dan liked guys, or that he knew some embarrassing moments from Dan's past he could share (experimenting? drunk makeouts with male friends? we've all been there), or that he knew nothing and it was all smoke but he wanted to poke fun at Dan because he knew people would react to it the way they did.

I'm talking about more isolated twitter incidents, like the one I linked or when he teased Phil about Dan and "phan", like some of the stuff here:
Image


he was obviously a bitter asshole and wanted attention, but I just thought that his attitude was a mix of friendship jealousy AND addressing shipbaiting
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by nephilimcat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:32 am

papierklemmen wrote:And here I go, making the same mistake you spent a few pages talking about :facepalm: I of course meant that he was expressing resentment towards shipbaiting, not queerbaiting.

His whole twitter meltdown about "balls" :roll: was definitely addressing Dan's sexuality specifically, be it that he knew/suspected that Dan liked guys, or that he knew some embarrassing moments from Dan's past he could share (experimenting? drunk makeouts with male friends? we've all been there), or that he knew nothing and it was all smoke but he wanted to poke fun at Dan because he knew people would react to it the way they did.

I'm talking about more isolated twitter incidents, like the one I linked or when he teased Phil about Dan and "phan", like some of the stuff here:
Image


he was obviously a bitter asshole and wanted attention, but I just thought that his attitude was a mix of friendship jealousy AND addressing shipbaiting


I don't see him resenting or criticising them for shipbaiting in those tweets at all. He reacted to completely normal, phan unrelated tweets by making them about Phan. The tweet with the MacBook and the power cable, for example, doesn't even have anything to do with Dan or any other human than Phil. As IckleMissMayhem mentioned, he was the one who was shipbaiting - just because you aren't part of a ship, doesn't mean you can't use it for yourself. Making phan related comments was an easy way for him to get attention from Deppy's viewers and of course he could also wind them up while doing so.
If he resented their shipbaiting, he would have chosen phan related tweets or videos and would have called them out on it or made it more obvious that he wasn't a fan but someone who tried to prove a point. Instead he made himself look like a rude fan and phan shipper. I've seen similar tweets from actual fans. If anything, he was trying to call out the Phandom, not shipbaiting, but I also doubt that.
As I said, he was just jealous, bitter and mean and if he knew/suspected something about Phan, he was maybe trying to make them come out.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by papierklemmen » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:52 am

nephilimcat wrote:If he resented their shipbaiting, he would have chosen phan related tweets or videos and would have called them out on it or made it more obvious that he wasn't a fan but someone who tried to prove a point. Instead he made himself look like a rude fan and phan shipper. I've seen similar tweets from actual fans.


ok I agree with everything you said (there are a lot of ways to look at the "evidence"), except the bolded part. he was obviously being sarcastic af, none of this is similar to tweets from actual fans in tone - fans can read sarcasm, can't they? aside from attention seeking, his tweets reek of bitterness, but it's hard to tell if it's just his own issues or he had a problem with the "phan" phenomenon.

sorry i know it's a stretch, i just wanted to reach a bit :lol:
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by IckleMissMayhem » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:59 am

nephilimcat wrote: As IckleMissMayhem mentioned, he was the one who was shipbaiting

No i didn't. I said baiting. (As in the now thankfully illegal sick kind with bears and chains and dogs in a pit.) Often done in public/for an audience. Attack the victim repeatedly until they're forced to lash out themselves, or get ripped to shreds.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by kusunoki masashige » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:17 am

papierklemmen wrote:
nephilimcat wrote:If he resented their shipbaiting, he would have chosen phan related tweets or videos and would have called them out on it or made it more obvious that he wasn't a fan but someone who tried to prove a point. Instead he made himself look like a rude fan and phan shipper. I've seen similar tweets from actual fans.


ok I agree with everything you said (there are a lot of ways to look at the "evidence"), except the bolded part. he was obviously being sarcastic af, none of this is similar to tweets from actual fans in tone - fans can read sarcasm, can't they? aside from attention seeking, his tweets reek of bitterness, but it's hard to tell if it's just his own issues or he had a problem with the "phan" phenomenon.

sorry i know it's a stretch, i just wanted to reach a bit :lol:


This is a topic I think about a lot, actually. How to interpret the tweets of their youtube-friends/-acquaintances.
Charlies tweets don't make him sound like a phan shipper to me, but they also don't sound necessarily sarcastic or like he's calling them out for shipbaiting or anything like that. It sounds to me like a mixture of teasing deppy, making fun of the shippers maybe, attention-seeking and shit-stirring. He made fun of deppy or the situation because he could, because the fact that shipping them is a thing made it possible for him to make these comments without anyone knowing if he was hinting at a truth or just joking about "phan".

Now the first tweet you mentioned, papierklemmen, reads completely different to me.

papierklemmen wrote:Image

on one hand it could be interpreted as him hinting at their sexualties, on the other... idk to me it sounds a lot more like resentment towards queerbaiting.


He sounds seriously bitter and frustrated with them playing up the ambiguity, you're right, but it was more concerning the "violent denial and reassurance of a heterosexual lifestyle" part of it, I think. Like nephilimcat said, I've never seen him reacting bitter to any phan-related tweets from Dan or Phil (but thinking about it, do these even exist post-2010?) It sounds more like him resenting the no-homoing going on back then to me. But it can all be interpreted in different ways, as always…

What stands out to me, though, is that none of their friends and colleagues from 2009/2010, a lot of them non-straight themselves and some of them probably bitter because deppy started ignoring them, ever called them out for shipbaiting or "milking a non-existent homosexual relationship" or anything (except maybe Charlie, but I still don't read his comments that way). Unless it happened and I just haven't heard of it, which would be completely possible.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by papierklemmen » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:46 am

kusunoki masashige wrote:He sounds seriously bitter and frustrated with them playing up the ambiguity, you're right, but it was more concerning the "violent denial and reassurance of a heterosexual lifestyle" part of it, I think. Like nephilimcat said, I've never seen him reacting bitter to any phan-related tweets from Dan or Phil (but thinking about it, do these even exist post-2010?) It sounds more like him resenting the no-homoing going on back then to me. But it can all be interpreted in different ways, as always…

What stands out to me, though, is that none of their friends and colleagues from 2009/2010, a lot of them non-straight themselves and some of them probably bitter because deppy started ignoring them, ever called them out for shipbaiting or "milking a non-existent homosexual relationship" or anything (except maybe Charlie, but I still don't read his comments that way). Unless it happened and I just haven't heard of it, which would be completely possible.


yep, as you said it can all be interpreted in different ways. it's no point picking apart contextless tweets, but i love doing it so why not!!! :2thumbsup:
here, have some linguistic pseudoanalysis (yes, i am a linguist, but i graduated ages ago and i majored in japanese, also we know linguists suck anyway - remember phil's onomatopoeia):
to me it mostly sounds like resenting no-homoing because of the word "blatant" which, in my head, is subconsciously followed by "lies", or anything negative of any sort. blatant lies, blatant lack of interest, blatant propaganda... granted i'm not a native english speaker, but nothing "blatant" is ever good, and here he uses it with "homo intensity" - why would a bi/gay (i'm not sure what he identifies with) person refer to something "homo" in a negative light?
also, flirting... i don't know what to say about the word flirting, but it sounds off in this context lol.

interesting point about their friends and colleagues from 2009/2010 - i'm wondering that myself. but at the end of the day, it's safe to say that there is no "milking of a non-existent homosexual relationship" in the eyes of those who's not invested in them. after a year of casual watching i didn't suspect anything, because they are very blatant (HA!) in their mocking of shipping culture. they never cross the line into the real world - all "shipping" moments are played up jokes and they make sure it gets through to the viewer. i figure a gay friend wouldn't be offended to see them mock their shippers - it's out of their control and they do the best they can in this situation.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by opendoor » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:05 am

papierklemmen wrote:Image

on one hand it could be interpreted as him hinting at their sexualties, on the other... idk to me it sounds a lot more like resentment towards queerbaiting.

kusunoki masashige wrote:

yep, as you said it can all be interpreted in different ways. it's no point picking apart contextless tweets, but i love doing it so why not!!! :2thumbsup:
here, have some linguistic pseudoanalysis (yes, i am a linguist, but i graduated ages ago and i majored in japanese, also we know linguists suck anyway - remember phil's onomatopoeia):
to me it mostly sounds like resenting no-homoing because of the word "blatant" which, in my head, is subconsciously followed by "lies", or anything negative of any sort. blatant lies, blatant lack of interest, blatant propaganda... granted i'm not a native english speaker, but nothing "blatant" is ever good, and here he uses it with "homo intensity" - why would a bi/gay (i'm not sure what he identifies with) person refer to something "homo" in a negative light?
also, flirting... i don't know what to say about the word flirting, but it sounds off in this context lol.


I'll preface this by saying I'm not an linguist, just a lover of words, but as for your analysis of the word 'blatant', I agree it has negative connotations. 'Blatant' is the word that stuck out for me, too, but for different reasons.
My thought was that Charlie could be using the 'blatant' as a synonym for 'undeniable' or 'unconcealable', rather than 'shameless', which I think is the interpretation you've gone for. (The word has too many meanings, help).
Therefore "blatant homo intensity" contrasts with "violent denial". A violent denial isn't necessarily an honest one. Essentially Charlie is saying that they can't hide the homo. He is bitter that they're trying to hide it, because the attempt is transparent, and also because it reasserts "the heterosexual lifestyle". Flirting can be faked for queer-baiting purposes but 'blatant homo intensity', not so much. The fact that he said 'blatant homo intensity' and 'flirting' makes me think that this isn't in fact an accusation of baiting, and that even though Charlie is judging them for concealing it, there is a real relationship underneath.

This is just an interpretation, and I still think it could be a baiting accusation, especially if by 'blatant', Charlie meant 'shameless', though that doesn't really make sense in the context of Charlie's other tweets about them where he constantly brought up them having a relationship into unrelated conversations. Though Charlie isn't exactly known for consistency...
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by melon lord » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:42 am

As a fellow lover of words (hey there word people I see you :illuminati: ) I love analysing.

The thing is with charlie is that every dig is always directed at Dan. As though Dan is this big bad corrupting force in Phil's life. Like, from that exchange it sounds like a bitter, drama-llama version of "you've changed, man" towards Phil, with shade at Dan.

Can I assume that prior to Dan becoming a huge part of Phil's life, Phil was potentially more open about his sexuality? Maybe not to Charlie's degree, but also honest enough about it. And now, I don't get why Dan would make him "act hetero", since you'd assume it'd be the opposite, but why would Charlie even care how they act? :daddy:

"blatant homo intensity" doesn't explain if the homo is real or fabricated. :ribena: Which is where the baiting comes in. So the tweet either goes two ways:

a) "You're using bisexuality/m-m pairing as a selling point and you're disregarding the fact that some people can't just turn it off and deny everything, like you are. You love pushing the boundaries as much as you feel comfortable with and then retreat back to your little hetero safe space when it gets too awkward for you"

b) "You're obviously flirting and clearly want to bishi bashi but you try and squash it out with the hetero because being available to thirsty fangirls is crucial to your popularity and your moral integrity is terrible because of it, because you would rather deny your feelings and instinct to save face to people rather than deal with it and accept it"

Either way it doesn't relate to him directly unless maybe phil would have been too ashamed/not ready at the time to be seen/acknowledged with a guy and that really hurt charlie so when he sees Phil act so... bisexual towards Dan he becomes bitter like "why wasn't he okay with me?"
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by alittledizzy » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:15 am

Ooh, Charlie talk - my favorite topic and I'm too busy working to contribute to the extent I'd like.

But I will point out that Charlie only had the negative attitude toward closeted/successful youtubers from around 2012 onward. If you're taking his comments as evidence to legitimize or de-legitimatize Dan and Phil as a couple/their sexuality then you should be looking at some of his older tweets, too - not just the ones where he had a bone to pick with them. A few that immediately come to mind:

Charlie openly talking about their sexuality (almost as if he weren't aware he was supposed to not):
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But citing that their relationship is no one's business:
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And again:
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melon lord wrote:Either way it doesn't relate to him directly unless maybe phil would have been too ashamed/not ready at the time to be seen/acknowledged with a guy and that really hurt charlie so when he sees Phil act so... bisexual towards Dan he becomes bitter like "why wasn't he okay with me?"


This part is interesting to me too, because Charlie and Phil only met irl once (pre-Dan) that we know of, but I'd probably say Phil definitely made more sexual jokes with Charlie on twitter/let Charlie get away with saying more romantic/sexual things about him than Dan did so I don't really know that Phil's reluctance to be out had a lot to do with it. But Phil's reluctance to be the one pursuing a relationship in general might have been. Despite Phil being years older I really think they were on the same level when it came to relationship experience. And (as someone who thinks voldy is real) we know Dan made the first move with Phil by kissing him.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by nephilimcat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:17 am

IckleMissMayhem wrote:
nephilimcat wrote: As IckleMissMayhem mentioned, he was the one who was shipbaiting

No i didn't. I said baiting. (As in the now thankfully illegal sick kind with bears and chains and dogs in a pit.) Often done in public/for an audience. Attack the victim repeatedly until they're forced to lash out themselves, or get ripped to shreds.


Oops, sorry, I misunderstood that, I didn't know that baiting meant that as well :facepalm:

melon lord wrote:Either way it doesn't relate to him directly unless maybe phil would have been too ashamed/not ready at the time to be seen/acknowledged with a guy and that really hurt charlie so when he sees Phil act so... bisexual towards Dan he becomes bitter like "why wasn't he okay with me?"


Something like this is what I believe to be the likeliest reason for Charlie's behaviour. At one point, Phil did things with Dan he never did with him/chose Dan over him/replaced him with Dan. And being replaced hurts a lot. Being hurt and jealous can bring out the worst in a human. I really think that if he had any specific intentions, he would have addressed it differently. To me, all his tweets scream "I'm jealous, I'm angry and I'll be an asshole because I can't get over it". Wow, with this analysis, I kind of feel sorry for Charlie. It's no excuse for his behaviour, but if this was the reason, I kind of understand how he could be like that.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by alittledizzy » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:28 am

nephilimcat wrote:
melon lord wrote:Either way it doesn't relate to him directly unless maybe phil would have been too ashamed/not ready at the time to be seen/acknowledged with a guy and that really hurt charlie so when he sees Phil act so... bisexual towards Dan he becomes bitter like "why wasn't he okay with me?"


Something like this is what I believe to be the likeliest reason for Charlie's behaviour. At one point, Phil did things with Dan he never did with him/chose Dan over him/replaced him with Dan. And being replaced hurts a lot. Being hurt and jealous can bring out the worst in a human. I really think that if he had any specific intentions, he would have addressed it differently. To me, all his tweets scream "I'm jealous, I'm angry and I'll be an asshole because I can't get over it". Wow, with this analysis, I kind of feel sorry for Charlie. It's no excuse for his behaviour, but if this was the reason, I kind of understand how he could be like that.


He didn't, though - Phil and Charlie met irl one time in March of 2009. Charlie and Stephen were talking and close the entire time Phil and Charlie were also close. In May of 2009 Charlie and Phil stopped talking as much, and Charlie and Stephen got closer. In June of 2009, Charlie and Stephen started dating - the same month that Dan started tweeting Phil, but before they were actually close.

Now, it's entirely possible that looking back years later Charlie was mad at himself for picking Stephen over Phil or mad at Phil for not pursuing him harder. But Phil choosing Dan over Charlie is the one conclusion that is just completely ruled out by the actual timeline. If there was any kind of emotional response happening it would have been from Phil, upset that Charlie chose Stephen over him, and using Dan as a rebound. (Which I don't actually think happened, because I don't think Phil was that upset over 'losing' Charlie for long, but is still a more plausible scenario.)
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by papierklemmen » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:38 am

we also shouldn't forget that he lied that he'd dated phil. so... as always, back to square one. :shrug:

p.s. what is with this fandom and lies :lol:
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by alittledizzy » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:44 am

papierklemmen wrote:we also shouldn't forget that he lied that he'd dated phil. so... as always, back to square one. :shrug:

p.s. what is with this fandom and lies :lol:


He said he dated Phil, but was not in a relationship with Phil. Those two terms don't necessarily mean the same thing, so I don't think he lied. You can be dating multiple people at once (for example, if Charlie was interested and pursuing Stephen and Phil at the same time) without being in a relationship.
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Re: Bingo Board Bants

PostPosted by pearshaped34 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:51 am

papierklemmen wrote:we also shouldn't forget that he lied that he'd dated phil. so... as always, back to square one. :shrug:

p.s. what is with this fandom and lies :lol:


Well to be fair we don't know for sure it was a lie. He has said both that he dated Phil and that he did not date Phil so he lied but we don't really know which of those statements was the false one. And probably never will.

Or as alittledizzy says maybe he was just playing word trickery and both statements could be true and he did date Phil without ever being in a relationship with him.
Last edited by pearshaped34 on Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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