ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

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liola
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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by liola » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:27 am

Am I the only one rolling their eyes reading the "I have other reasons but I will explain in my next video" like... why? Why can't you write them in a post, for instance since you're communicating that you're aware of the issue to your patreon audience only? I know she doesn't need this tricks to get people to watch her videos but to me is a bit of a low reach.

It also doesn't exclude the fact that she apparently knowingly featured a transmedicalist non-binary exclusivist in her video, and I cannot understand what possible reason there can be that would justify that. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth honestly, and it's starting to be a common point with her which just makes me sad because I respect her and her opinions and knowledge a lot. Just not great.
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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by Katka » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:29 pm

poweroftriangles wrote:She does so much research, it's hard to believe she missed this
At the risk of sounding petty but I'm starting to question how well she researches her topics. As I've said before, she called Oscar Wilde English. You just have to Wikipedia him to find out he was in fact Irish and why it's not cool to call him English at all. This might seem like a small thing in comparison but Oscar Wilde and his trials are a major negative turning point in British lgbtq history so it leaves me salty. And as much as I love Dan, his posh English voice was really not the best choice for Wilde considering all this.

I'm with liola on the explanation. Her inclusion of Buck in the video made a lot of nonbinary trans people - and binary trans people as well - feel bad and she should have just cleared it up properly. "I'm gonna tell you in my next video" sounds to me like she's trying to grab clicks while she's at it and that's turning me off her real quick. Might be she's just better at explaining things on video than written down but she could have just dropped a video then instead of this. She did some really good videos in the past and I'm glad she made those but she's moving in a weird direction recently.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by spacedementia » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:09 pm

i don’t think she’s milking it for clicks necessarily, because I’m willing to bet the majority of her funding comes thru patreon donors, anyway. it’s probably just the theme of the next video, and she wants the full 20-something minutes to explain fully. although a dumb way to go about it, i don’t think she has ill intent. when she befriended theryn, theryn had a complete change of heart and apologised for everything. i’m hoping that’s the case here, though i really don’t see how it could happen. still, nat needs to look into some pr or something.

i’m gonna wait for a real answer on this, but if it’s not decent, it’ll be the nail in the coffin and i’m going to unsub. first there’s the interview where she supports marianne williamson and kim petras, then she’s still supporting jeffree star, and then she’s milking this buck angel controversy right after the whole twitter issue.

(a very petty and ultimately non consequential aside: im kind of an oscar wilde stan, and actually, he adopted an english accent at oxford. also, multiple accounts claimed he spoke in kind of a sing-songy, articulate voice (people dug this all up to prove whether or not an alleged recording was actually his). dan was actually a pretty great choice imo, except for the fact his tone was probably a bit high pitched to be accurate. not that they would care too much about the accuracy of a voiceover that lasts a few seconds. I mean, no one even bothered to double check that he was, in fact, irish. :? )

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by Katka » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:52 pm

spacedementia wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:09 pm
(a very petty and ultimately non consequential aside: im kind of an oscar wilde stan, and actually, he adopted an english accent at oxford. also, multiple accounts claimed he spoke in kind of a sing-songy, articulate voice (people dug this all up to prove whether or not an alleged recording was actually his). dan was actually a pretty great choice imo, except for the fact his tone was probably a bit high pitched to be accurate. not that they would care too much about the accuracy of a voiceover that lasts a few seconds. I mean, no one even bothered to double check that he was, in fact, irish. :? )
Same, hi. :D I realise he had an English accent but I still don't think Dan was a good choice. I guess you've seen The Happy Prince? I think Rupert Everett did very well in the scenes where Oscar is addressing the crowd at the theatre or just generally "being Oscar". At least his delivery is very close to what I always thought Wilde might have spoken like. Less "posh" or whatever you wanna call it and more dramatic like with a real impact. People loved to listen to him after all. Idk, it's not even that important.

I could also get into how quoting from "Dorian Gray" like every line from that book was actually Wilde's own opinions riles me up loads but let's not and pretend we did.

(This wasn't meant to turn into a critique of Dan's five second long voice acting, he did well enough, I'm sorry.)

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by obsessivelymoody » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:45 pm

I think Natalie fucked up with the whole Buck Angel situation, but I don't think she—or anyone for that matter—deserves the sheer amount of plain bullying and hate she's had to go through over the last while. I personally could barely watch her Octobee AMA stream because she just seemed so uncomfortable and anxious, and it was super upsetting.

Idk. She's not perfect. It sucks that she inadvertently hurt so many people, but it's clear that she didn't mean to. I do wish she could release some kind of statement—perhaps through her assistant to make it easier—so it doesn't make the Buck Angel thing seem like some weird stunt for her videos. But even then, the way this situation has escalated into something fuelled in such intense hatred is horrible to see.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by Katka » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:18 pm

Natalie's actions are literally the cause for a lot of bullying and hate directed at nonbinary and trans people on social media these last few weeks as well and no one is sticking up for them like this. Her stans are trying to uncancel Buck Angel despite all of the horrible things he has said and done just because she featured him in a video. Instead of apologising, she defended that choice and Buck in her stream. I'm sorry, but I can't feel too much sympathy for her right now when it's the nonbinary and trans communities suffering because of her thoughtless tweets and actions.

No one deserves to be bullied but she's not being bullied. She's being rightfully criticised for a series of major fuck ups. No one is perfect, I agree, and everyone is allowed to fuck up and learn but she's not learning and she's making the same hurtful mistakes over and over again. And, really, I can't take her serious when she says she loves nonbinary people when she can't even apologise for featuring someone as hateful as Buck Angel in a video.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by obsessivelymoody » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:43 pm

I didn't realise stans were literally trying to do that. I should research better before I post and make an opinion. And as a cis person, I sincerely apologize for inserting myself into this conversation in the first place because I don't have a place in this discussion. I'm upset and sad that people are hurt and being bullied and hated on, and I hope the people bullying can get a grip and educate themselves on the topic, and if they can't do that I hope they can fuck off.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by Katka » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:29 pm

i'd like to add that I also hope Natalie is okay. I'm not okay with what she said and did lately but I do not believe she is a bad person or had bad intentions. Sadly that won't undo the damage done but no one in this situation deserves to be bullied or hated, not Natalie, nor the trans and nb-people who are angry with her because they are affected by what she said.

I have to say, as a nb person, seeing Buck featured in her video and then her defending it was rough so I'm not her fan at the moment but I do still believe she means well so hopefully she will take the criticism to heart this time and do better in the future. I think she's one of the most intelligent voices on Youtube at the moment, she's just a bit ignorant about some things but everyone can learn.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by poweroftriangles » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:29 pm



I watched the entire thing!

Honestly? I think this is one of her best videos. She argues her case really well, does an excellent job of breaking down what Twitter cancel culture comprises, goes in depth into the James Charles and Buck Angel controversies. Then she addresses her own problematic tweets and other things. It's a long video, but it's a well done one, classic alcohol-fueled Natalie ;)

I can't imagine being at the receiving end of that kind of targeted abuse - however much you may disagree with her, some of that stuff is seriously unwarranted. I've watched all her videos and I don't agree with her on every single thing but she does not come across as a bad person. In fact I think she's one of the most reasonable people on the internet.

She didn't address the lizard people thing. Oh well. She hasn't said it in a while afaik, so I hope she's learnt about it.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by flarequake » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:14 pm

I watched it the other night and there seemed little for her to actually apologise for. Buck Angel’s attitudes about things particularly seem to have been misunderstood somehow, unless I’m forgetting something. I love her setting of a literal (almost) rubbish dump. Started wanting a burger thanks to the bloody McDonald’s wrappers.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by kavat » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:10 am

This video shows very much that she's a human, something I think people on twitter forget sometimes. You see an account with a snazzy picture and a blue checkmark and that morphs into something inhuman, like a corporation or a robot without feelings.

I know some people got hurt, i'm not dismissing that. There was some real level headed criticism and I think she took to that. But she definitely didn't deserve the rampant hate she got, in the quantity she got. Some people seem to be looking for "who are we hating today" and targets that person, rather than uplifting people they think do good.

I also think it's ridiculous with the whole guilt by association thing, like someone who liked a post about someone supporting someone who featured a "bad person" in a video is now cancelled... Come on. With that logic none of us would be deemed worthy. He without sin throw the first stone, and all that.
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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by Katka » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:00 am

flarequake wrote:I watched it the other night and there seemed little for her to actually apologise for. Buck Angel’s attitudes about things particularly seem to have been misunderstood somehow, unless I’m forgetting something
He's still deepy problematic and I don't think we should be going around redeeming him. He's the one who outed Lana Wachowski against her will, he's gatekeeping a lot of trans and nb folks out of trans spaces. This is not just about some tweets Buck has written, it's about his toxic behaviour towards other trans people over the course of more than a literal decade. He literally supports Graham Linehan as well. Buck is trans himself but he's also very, very transphobic, especially towards people who aren't trans in the way he thinks is the right way.

I don't think Natalie is a bad person. I think she's misinformed about nb people and she made a very bad call featuring someone like Buck in her video. She keeps receiving criticism for this because she refuses to apologise for featuring Buck and that's not okay. She has caused a lot of nb and trans people hurt over the past few weeks. The people whose tweets she featured in her latest video are getting harrassed now as well. And I really hope she stops and thinks about that some time soon.

Because of course she doesn't deserve hate. But she also doesn't get to play the victim in this situation like she did nothing wrong. She made mistakes and she hasn't fully owned up to them yet. I hope she will so we can all finally move forward but I don't think people will be okay with her basically saying "Sorry, but..." all the time instead of just "Sorry". But whatever you think about Natalie, let's not redeem Buck Angel just because she thinks we should. Really. Let's not.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by flarequake » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:30 am

Okay. I took what she said about him cos she seemed to know.

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Re: ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

Post by Katka » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:34 pm

Yes, I don't blame you. I don't even really blame her because she seems to have a very personal relationship with his work that means a lot to her. I just wish people would look beyond what she said and see the whole picture before they decide if they want to support him. In the end I just hope everyone is okay. Natalie as well as the people who got harrassed by her stans (which is not her fault, creators can't control what their audience does).

I really hope this whole business goes away soon so everyone can move on. I want to see what kind of videos Natalie will make in the future without these issues on her mind.

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