If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

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LeftHandedism
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by LeftHandedism » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:11 pm

Danting wrote:Okay I've never posted here before but I'm old and I've been a fan of dan and phil off and on SINCE THE BEGINNING and I remember the days when I used to ship them like some of you do now. It was fun back then, when there weren't literally one million phannies doing it. Since then I've grown and discovered a lot about my own sexuality and that helps me realise how I wish to view .
Thanks for your post .

I'm interested in hearing more about what it was like in the beginning. What made you ship them then? Did you see pinof when it came out? Did you hear about the vday vid when it leaked (the first or second time)? What made you stop shipping them?

I think anything you'd like to share would be interesting to us johnny-come-latelies who don't really know what it was like 7-8 years ago, but can only look backwards to that time.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Danting » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:35 am

LeftHandedism wrote:
Danting wrote:Okay I've never posted here before but I'm old and I've been a fan of dan and phil off and on SINCE THE BEGINNING and I remember the days when I used to ship them like some of you do now. It was fun back then, when there weren't literally one million phannies doing it. Since then I've grown and discovered a lot about my own sexuality and that helps me realise how I wish to view .
Thanks for your post .

I'm interested in hearing more about what it was like in the beginning. What made you ship them then? Did you see pinof when it came out? Did you hear about the vday vid when it leaked (the first or second time)? What made you stop shipping them?

I think anything you'd like to share would be interesting to us johnny-come-latelies who don't really know what it was like 7-8 years ago, but can only look backwards to that time.
(I guess this is a little off topic but...)

OK so this is just my view on everything, and it was long ago so Im sorry if I get stuff wrong.
I was a huge fan of Charlie McDonnell, Alex Day, Tom Milsom and their gang. They were also pretty much running vidcon and the general "British youtubers" fandom. Thats also where shipping started for me, with cherimon fanfic I was all about nerfighters, dr who music, DFTBA and all that stuff hehe... I guess people still are but its not as "mainstream" as it used to be.
Alex and Charlie were somewhat similar to dnp, they lived together and made loads of collabs etc. Their fandom was similar to this but smaller. (everyone remembers dans shipping video yes?? :) )
I did see pinof when it was released, I think it was the first time I saw dan actually, I only knew phil before. I wasn't a fan initially, I just happened to see their videos around youtube.

Shipping phan really started when they moved in together in manchester. It was just fan fiction and that stuff, I never really had on opinion on if it was real or not then. I guess I assumed it wasn't because I was uses to cherimon, which REALLY wasn't a thing. I loved the idea of it though. (I'm a simple person who appreciate beautiful people in my dreams heh) It was fun until it got too far for me and I wasn't comfortable with it anymore.

ALSO VIDCON 2012 was so good! Most youtubers could walk around among the crowds without causing mayhem, which was nice. (I played the piano with tom milson, that was the highlight of my life for so long and then it came out that he was a rapist and now I just wanna cry looking back at it)

The vday video wasn't intended to be released, it doesn't really matter if it was real or not to me. I saw it just after it leaked but I never really thought about it much tbh. We don't know what context they were planning to release it and if what dan said about it is true they probably had some kind of plan. I think its very human to think of a joke/ video and then change your mind about it because the joke got too much when you actually see it in full. It really could mean anything or nothing, again, we don't know and never will.

iwishiwasacasual wrote:
Danting wrote:As someone who identify as queer I REALLY DONT GET IT I understand queerbating, oppression and all that but I don't think they're feeding the phans, I think they're being themselves and thats 100% fine by me. I'm queer and I have many straight friends who behave very similarly to DnP. I also have gay friends who act very "straight", its just who they are. nail polish and appreciation for the same gender means nothing to me in terms of the persons sexualty, I am only happy to see people who are open minded regardless of sexuality and gender.
i'm fine with this if they're together or queer or whatever but if they are two single straight dudes 'playing gay' for views it doesn't take a genius to realise that's a dicky thing to do.
I really get you and I agree, but I also think that if thats how they are with each other as people and as friends, they should also have the right be like that on camera. I have friends I can kiss on the lips and spoon in bed and its still platonic. I think they should be allowed to make the videos they do and still be straight, if thats their sexuality. (not saying it is)
I don't like looking at the way someone behaves and say that that makes them for sure (insert sexualty) because thats a standard. And then go on to saying that if their sexuality does not match their behaviour they're not allowed to act that way.
Perhaps you're right and they just do it for views and money. that would be sad, it really would.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Countllamas » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:22 pm

I read through the whole thread and I have a lot of thoughts right now that I need to sort into a readable post, but I just wanted to contribute to this discussion because it comes up quite a lot:
Danting wrote:
iwishiwasacasual wrote:
Danting wrote:As someone who identify as queer I REALLY DONT GET IT I understand queerbating, oppression and all that but I don't think they're feeding the phans, I think they're being themselves and thats 100% fine by me. I'm queer and I have many straight friends who behave very similarly to DnP. I also have gay friends who act very "straight", its just who they are. nail polish and appreciation for the same gender means nothing to me in terms of the persons sexualty, I am only happy to see people who are open minded regardless of sexuality and gender.
i'm fine with this if they're together or queer or whatever but if they are two single straight dudes 'playing gay' for views it doesn't take a genius to realise that's a dicky thing to do.
I really get you and I agree, but I also think that if thats how they are with each other as people and as friends, they should also have the right be like that on camera. I have friends I can kiss on the lips and spoon in bed and its still platonic. I think they should be allowed to make the videos they do and still be straight, if thats their sexuality. (not saying it is)
I don't like looking at the way someone behaves and say that that makes them for sure (insert sexualty) because thats a standard. And then go on to saying that if their sexuality does not match their behaviour they're not allowed to act that way.
Perhaps you're right and they just do it for views and money. that would be sad, it really would.
I agree with most of the opinions in "Why I don't ship Phan" even if they contradict each other, and I say yes to all of the above! It would be really problematic and treacherous of them to fake affection for views, especially since they are aware of things like queerbaiting (Dan mentioning it while talking about YoI) and how tumblr/the fanbase reacts to them.
But accusing them of queerbaiting always irked me a lot, because of the reasons Danting described above. There's this preconceived idea of how male platonic relationships look like and everything that doesn't fit the pattern is deemed as 'gay' or 'queer' behaviour. It's an over-generalization, but I think it's fascinating how that reasoning sometimes applies to both shippers and casual viewers with heteronormative glasses. There's nothing wrong with how they interact with each other on camera even if they are platonic straight best friends.
I've been observing slash fandoms of TV series and youtube drama surrounding queerbaiting/clickbaiting and deppy just don't tick the box there for me, as far as I know they've never stated or teased unambiguously or intentionally to be a couple, their brand has always been one of best friends that share a flat together.
I've seen the discussion about gaslighting a few pages back and how deppy do all of this not to intentionally screw with the heads of their audience but rather to ensure their privacy. They stated their opinion on private issues & sharing them with the internet quite clearly and people should respect that, even if it means that they'll never explain the nature of their relationship/open up about personal details.
I know it's slippery ground since they basically opened up a window into their private life by filming in their rooms/sharing domestic details from the start and it's only natural that people want to know more, people are curious, but that gives no one the right to know the whole truth. It's still their decision what they share with the internet and what stays private.
Also I don't agree with the statement that they act touchy for views. Maybe I'm biased here but their interactions seem natural to me. On a 'casual viewer level' they don't necessarily come across as a couple in my opinion, you have to look very closely and even the small 'slip-ups' that they decide to leave in are ambiguous. I believe that the dynamic they are displaying on screen is genuine, even though they might leave out a potential romantic relationship.
(I'd love to hear a detailed view on how exactly they are queerbaiting from someone who believes that this is what they are doing)
Someone on the previous page mentioned that they leave in those small moments of affection for views. Maybe they do, but it's not like they plan to be touchy/flirty with each other in the first place, at least it seems like that to me (I could be terribly wrong and underestimate their acting skills though). It's different with TV shows, if queercoding is included there's almost no way that it is not deliberate. I just don't see how deppy subtly slipping in relationship dynamics as they do as of now could be deliberate queerbaiting and I think if that's how they act on a day-to-day basis they have every right to display that. I even think they repress a lot of jokes/affections which they might not do if there wasn't a large fanbase interpreting everything they do as either proof or anti-proof. They've come a long way since 2012 and I just think it's more likely that they are more comfortable doing what they are doing rather than faking it for views.
That's just my opinion though, I could be wrong. And as I said, if someone has a detailed view on queerbaiting and wants to share it with me, feel free to do so, it can also be via PM ;)

that's it for now, that was longer than I expected, whoopsie

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Danting » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:15 pm

Countllamas wrote: Also I don't agree with the statement that they act touchy for views. Maybe I'm biased here but their interactions seem natural to me. On a 'casual viewer level' they don't necessarily come across as a couple in my opinion, you have to look very closely and even the small 'slip-ups' that they decide to leave in are ambiguous. I believe that the dynamic they are displaying on screen is genuine, even though they might leave out a potential romantic relationship.
(I'd love to hear a detailed view on how exactly they are queerbaiting from someone who believes that this is what they are doing)
I'd be very interested to hear that too.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:43 pm

i probably should just leave this alone but the queerbaiting discussion is a guilty pleasure of mine, i don't know why it's a pretty weird thing to enjoy discussing.

i strongly believe that they play up 'phan' for views. i believe that whether or not they are in a relationship (and tbh it's kind of irrelevant to me at this point) they do in fact include footage of them being more affectionate or flirty because they know that is what their audience likes. i'm not in any way saying that they don't act like this off camera even if they are just platonic bros (like you said two guys acting more affectionate then the average male platonic friendship doesn't necessarily mean that they're together or anything).

what i'm trying to say is that even if they are just friends who act in a way that people perceive as couple-y they know that a large part of their audience do actually think they are together and they are choosing to keep on including things that the shippers are going to see as evidence that they are together, so even of that is just how they act off camera (which is highly likely) they are still knowingly adding fuel to the flame and simultaneously not doing anything make people believe otherwise.

this probably doesn't make a lot of sense because i left halfway through writing it to go watch their new video because i'm apparently at rock bottom now but what ever i'm having fun

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Danting » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:08 pm

iwishiwasacasual wrote:i probably should just leave this alone but the queerbaiting discussion is a guilty pleasure of mine, i don't know why it's a pretty weird thing to enjoy discussing.

i strongly believe that they play up 'phan' for views. i believe that whether or not they are in a relationship (and tbh it's kind of irrelevant to me at this point) they do in fact include footage of them being more affectionate or flirty because they know that is what their audience likes. i'm not in any way saying that they don't act like this off camera even if they are just platonic bros (like you said two guys acting more affectionate then the average male platonic friendship doesn't necessarily mean that they're together or anything).

what i'm trying to say is that even if they are just friends who act in a way that people perceive as couple-y they know that a large part of their audience do actually think they are together and they are choosing to keep on including things that the shippers are going to see as evidence that they are together, so even of that is just how they act off camera (which is highly likely) they are still knowingly adding fuel to the flame and simultaneously not doing anything make people believe otherwise.
Okay but if that is how they act as platonic friends, (or whatever they are to each other) why should they have to change it for people to respect them and their privacy in the matter?

(hope you enjoyed the video )

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:39 pm

i'm not saying they would have to change their behaviour but staying silent on things to do with their relationship would be a very calculated act because in doing that they're in a way encouraging the shippers, which you know, kinda dicky.
edit: i very much enjoyed the video, thank you for asking :D

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Countllamas » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:30 pm

iwishiwasacasual wrote:i'm not saying they would have to change their behaviour but staying silent on things to do with their relationship would be a very calculated act because in doing that they're in a way encouraging the shippers, which you know, kinda dicky.
edit: i very much enjoyed the video, thank you for asking :D
I get you, but that's the side of the fandom, that's the POV of a phan. We don't actually know how they see things. I believe they are hyper-aware of what's going on in the fandom and calculate it quite a lot, but they are not there to cater to what they call the "1%" of the fandom who stalk them/press them for answers. It might just be that they accepted that people ship them and they try to find a balance between catering to people who think they are cute together vs. keeping their actual relationship/sexual preferences/dating life private. People tend to forget what they might be dealing with if they are really that aware of how the phandom thinks in detail, it's a miracle how they cope with that. If they are taking advantage of the shipping I say it's earned, they worked hard to get where they are now and maybe it's a way of coping with it better to just go with it and accept it. We don't actually know if they see that a majority of people are dead serious about the shipping and the conspiracies...

I don't think they are innocent here, they definitely care about that sweet money income and keeping people interested but I think it's unfair to accuse them of baiting. You get the content that they are promising in their titles & thumbnails, they don't put their lingering glances and accidental touches in the thumbnail, they don't give their videos titles like "master of erotic massages" (to quote the most recent video :3). That's all what fans pick up on & a casual wouldn't even notice. I would even go so far and say that if there's more flirting they are keeping it to a minimum here. They don't really have control over people who are 100% convinced that they have a secret relationship, and I think it's absolutely okay to not address it. They don't promise anyone a coming out with what they are doing. The answers to the questions "are you single", "are you just friends", and "what is your sexuality" are probably too complex to answer with yes or no or just one sentence, for reasons we can only speculate about, so it's more convenient to completely ignore the topic. Saying that ignoring the question is only encouraging shippers alludes to that they have to answer it, because it's the only way to stop it and I don't agree with that.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sparkle » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:41 pm

Question:

How much do you think is influenced by their management/network?

like how much do you think is encouraged/discouraged by them to get that 'are they aren't they' balance? All of these discussions assume that they act alone but they don't, and the cynic in me wonders how strategic this is? Dan and Phil have to have an agreement of what they won't share, even if its just between themselves, so I wonder who else is saying what is and what isn't acceptable?

Does anyone know the dates for when they've changed who their management are etc? Because it would be interesting if we could track changes to that and what was going on at the time? Like I wonder if anything changed around the time of the baking video? Or when they allowed themselves to be a 'package' more than two individuals?

I'm just curious, because they are intensely private people, and their personal relationships are so guarded. Maybe they are both in a relationship and are playing up to phan so the fans are happy and don't stalk whoever they are dating.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Countllamas » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:55 pm

^^ that is a very interesting question I admittedly didn't think about a lot, I'd like to know too.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by alittledizzy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:07 pm

(For the purposes of this I'm assuming when people say queerbaiting they mean shipbaiting. I know shipbaiting a queer couple has some overlap, but I think it would be wholly unfair to accuse either of them of literal queerbaiting unless you really think they're straight. But that's a different conversation.)

What never works for me about the queerbaiting argument is that it assumes the worst of them, holds them to some strange skewed standard, and leaves no room for actual closeted people to slowly acclimate themselves to anything. The only way to appease someone who resents them for queerbaiting would be for them to either come out as a couple (forcing them out of the closet whether they want to be out or not) or be incredibly clear about not being together - which they've technically already done, and if you don't think they're together why isn't that being the only official statement enough to satisfy you? If they've never said they're together, it's not queerbaiting.

I'll also just second what countllamas already said - nothing about their content is actually baiting. There are no almost-kiss thumbnails. They don't tweet out sexually suggestive things about each other. They don't play around in liveshows with any kind of are-they-aren't-they.

Are they financially profiting off of the ship? Absolutely. But that's not an argument that needs to involve a 'together or not' aspect. Profiting off of a relationship is what literally every single youtuber that's part of a couple and involves their significant other in their onscreen career does. Is it somehow more wrong for Dan and Phil? And, since we've established that the only official word they've ever given is that they're not together and they're not doing anything to actively be seen as a couple that doesn't reflect a reality of their life (they really do live together, they really do travel together, they really do go on trips together, they really do socialize with the same friends, they really do have a channel together and therefore film together a lot) then why are they held to a standard that means they're morally obligated to not profit off of the fact that people enjoy seeing them together?

I don't jump into this thread often because I do respect that some people don't think they're together and while I might not agree everyone's got the right to their opinion. But this whole queerbaiting topic never fails to make me feel like people are being way too entitled and way too unforgiving of couples trying to draw a line between on camera and off camera. If they're uncomfortable then it's because fans are awful and disrespectful and can't just be because they're working out stuff for themselves. If they divulge too much, it's profiting or whatever-baiting; if they don't divulge enough it's cashing in on the mystery. If they're very comfortable it's because it's just all for show and again also only has to do with fans and can't possible be because things in their personal life are good and what they are onscreen is reflective of it.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:58 pm

i meant to put a little disclaimer at the end of what i wrote saying that this is all entirely hypothetical because as i have recently changed my opinions on the whole "is dan queer thing?' (my thoughts: yeah probs) so you can't really accuse them of queerbaiting and what i meant to argue was that if they were two straight dudes then they should shut down the shippers.

and a little disclaimer for this post is that i'm very tired so i might not have fully absorbed what any of you are saying making all of what i've written irrelevant.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by goingbackto505 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:46 pm

Countllamas wrote: Someone on the previous page mentioned that they leave in those small moments of affection for views. Maybe they do, but it's not like they plan to be touchy/flirty with each other in the first place, at least it seems like that to me (I could be terribly wrong and underestimate their acting skills though). It's different with TV shows, if queercoding is included there's almost no way that it is not deliberate. I just don't see how deppy subtly slipping in relationship dynamics as they do as of now could be deliberate queerbaiting and I think if that's how they act on a day-to-day basis they have every right to display that. I even think they repress a lot of jokes/affections which they might not do if there wasn't a large fanbase interpreting everything they do as either proof or anti-proof. They've come a long way since 2012 and I just think it's more likely that they are more comfortable doing what they are doing rather than faking it for views
the thing is, I can't even call what they're doing "queerbaiting" per se, because I don't know whether they're queer or not. I think I've mentioned in my first post on here that while I was watching their gaming videos for the first time I saw them as two platonic friends/colleagues and didn't even catch any particular moments to analyze, it didn't even cross my mind. without knowing their 2009/10 history and everything that comes with it, I just don't really get why people would assume they're currently a couple, because I personally don't see that much of romantic/sexual chemistry between them now and mostly all the heart-eyes Howell/love-eyes Lester seem like a reach to me. as if friends can't look at each other with affection. except for that one gif I included, for example, because that moment had no actual substance behind it, and no commentary either, it was during one of their gameplays and they for some reason deliberately decided to put it on fullscreen instead of putting it in the corner on the small one. it's just strange how they didn't edit it out knowing their fanbase. but whatever lol. the main and probably the only real issue I have with DnP, basically, is their fanservice, or like Dan says, them "giving the fans what they want". they know their most vocal audience very, very well and, again, even though the whole thing was partly ironic and "not to be taken seriously", a quote from Dan's diss track comes to mind:"The only reason you get views is you’re another white guy that people ship with his friend cause they think it’s kawaii".
around 41:50 he says: "Domestic? You’re welcome. Yep, you know, that domestic phanservice.. I deliver. I know what the people want. Dorito-themed banter, that’s why you’re all here. Does anyone else give you this? Or is this just a Dan and Phil-thing?"
I know what "post-baking universe" means to the shippers, but what does it mean to Dan and Phil and why did Dan specifically point it out? what changed around that time and why was the change calculated? was it branding-related, or something else? those are just a couple of DnP things that bother me.
and like iwishiwasacasual said,
iwishiwasacasual wrote:i'm fine with this if they're together or queer or whatever but if they are two single straight dudes 'playing gay' for views it doesn't take a genius to realise that's a dicky thing to do.
although I def. can't assume they're straight, and I don't think they're "playing gay", they surely do "play house" not that there's anything specifically wrong with that.
I know pretty much everyone on here will disagree with me, but I wish either Dan, or Phil, or both of them, would address the shippers that spread the belief that phan is real everywhere, simply because the amount of fetishization and over-sexualization going on in the phandom is disturbing, to say the least, and I'd imagine, whether it's real or not, knowing the fact that are very private people, it has to be uncomfortable for them, and I wish more of their fans would respect them. but I suppose they want it like that since that's the main thing that keeps both of them relevant and talked about. Phil's most popular videos are pinofs, phan is a part of their branding, so it's convenient for them to keep quiet and let the shippers do the advertising for them. even though the way the phandom acts was the only reason why I used to *avoid* DnP's content. oh, and because of onision's creepy "obsession" with both of them thank god I gave them the chance though, today's gaming video alone quite possibly made my week
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sugar » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:31 pm

edit: ignore this i posted in the wrong thread :roll:
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by julian » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:55 pm

Jumping into this thread as someone who believes their relationship is romantic to counter some anti-points. I totally respect everyone's opinions to not believe they're in a romantic relationship, but I think some of the points used against them being a couple aren't real anti-reasons.

First of all, Dan's reaction to Phan vs Dan's reaction to people thinking he's not straight. I see where you're coming from here, but just put yourself in their shoes (or specifically Dan's shoes). Imo, in his situation, I'd be more inclined to deny being in a relationship than deny being not-straight. Remember back in 2009 when Dan openly said he was bi? And answered numerous asks about it? On the other hand, he never said anything about his relationship with Phil. Yes, they were very flirty and there were a lot of things which would imply ~something more~ but my point is, their relationship has never been open despite both of them stating non-heterosexuality in the foetus years. This shows how "out" they are individually vs as a couple: they've always been more willing to say they're not straight than to say they're dating. So, reasonably, they'd deny being together more agressively than being bi/gay/whatever the Phandom thought. Personally, in their situation, I'd be the same because being ambiguous about a relationship is both a lot more specific and a lot more suspicious than not explicitly saying "I'm not attracted to men". Most people don't explicitly state their sexuality, but with relationships, it's often quite black-and-white; you either are or aren't romantic/more-than-platonic. There's no default sexuality, but a default positive relationship with someone is purely platonic, and people are going to assume that until told otherwise (I mean, there will be situations where people assume you to be a couple, but that's just being pedantic and you know what I mean).

To people who think they're straight, do you really think that lowly of them? Because if they were, they'd be textbook queerbaiting (especially Dan). If either of them were straight, my opinion of both would diminish drastically, because regardless of whether or not it was a conscious decision, if it never occured to them that their behaviour might be interpreted as queer to their largely LGBTQ+ audience, then that just shows ignorance. And, of course, if the decision was a conscious one, that's just plain shitty and would paint them as homophobic manipulators.

To people who think they're not necessarily straight but aren't dating, they would still be shipbaiting imo. While I definitely think the boundaries people set for m/m friendships are ridiculous and two men should definitely be able to be emotionally intimate with each other without it being read as ~gay~, their absolute aversion to addressing the shippers would read to me as queerbaiting, plus certain things which were definitely done to pander to the shippers (and I don't think that's necessarily wrong if they are in a relationship, but if they aren't, that adds a layer to the shipbaiting argument, doesn't it?). If I was in their position and our relationship wasn't romantic, I would do more to specify that we weren't together. Because they've definitely treated their relationship with more ambiguity lately, and if they are not and never were in a relationship, that would definitely amount to shipbaiting in my opinion. The individual actions aren't necessarily shipbaiting, but the whole dynamic around addressing Phan feels like, in a situation where they're completely platonic, shipbaiting.

Re: "if they were together, they'd have been outed by someone by now". Who would out them? There are people who have said nasty things about DnP, sure, but you'd have to really hate someone to out them. Emma Blackery in particular is queer herself, right? I would never out someone, not even if I hated them. Also, she wasn't close to DnP at any point, and I doubt they'd be out to some random ex-fangirl they don't know personally.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by alch » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:20 pm

emerald wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:55 pm
Re: "if they were together, they'd have been outed by someone by now". Who would out them? There are people who have said nasty things about DnP, sure, but you'd have to really hate someone to out them. Emma Blackery in particular is queer herself, right? I would never out someone, not even if I hated them. Also, she wasn't close to DnP at any point, and I doubt they'd be out to some random ex-fangirl they don't know personally.
Didn't MusicalBethan try to out them at one point? I swear I remember hearing that she'd said they were together. And she seemed to know them pretty well.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sunshinias » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:25 pm

alch wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:20 pm
emerald wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:55 pm
Re: "if they were together, they'd have been outed by someone by now". Who would out them? There are people who have said nasty things about DnP, sure, but you'd have to really hate someone to out them. Emma Blackery in particular is queer herself, right? I would never out someone, not even if I hated them. Also, she wasn't close to DnP at any point, and I doubt they'd be out to some random ex-fangirl they don't know personally.
Didn't MusicalBethan try to out them at one point? I swear I remember hearing that she'd said they were together. And she seemed to know them pretty well.
I remember seeing this when I was reading through the old GG threads and I think what happened was that she gossiped to her friends about it and then they told a GG user?

From the GG thread 1, page 8:
BrunetteBarbie wrote:
toTheBasementPeople wrote:
BrunetteBarbie wrote:A girl who does YouTube goes to my college, and someone in one of my classes said that she's met Dan and Phil a few times that they've been together for years. Apparently they're open about it with other Youtubers but hide it from everyone else :?
Who was it?
:hk:
musicalbethan? I don't watch her so I don't really know anything about her but I think she has a fair amount of subscribers.
BrunetteBarbie wrote:
Ali9799 wrote:Well then that's their mistake. Telling untrustworthy people. Since you're not good friends with her, brunettebarbie, why did she tell you?
I swear this is the perfect example of the fact that a secret isn't quite a secret when you tell someone else. They told her, she told you, and you told us,we are the Internet. The Internet tells everyone I wouldn't be surprised if a screen shot of what you just said was spread around the Internet and used as some more "phan evidence"
She didn't, I said that someone else said it :roll: I'm not saying like I HAVE PROOF 100% THAT THEY ARE IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP, I'm just saying its something I heard. It might not be true, I don't really care. I like Dan and Phil and I think they are together but I don't really give a shit.
:sunshine: ~let in a little sunshine~ :sunshine:

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by nocturnal » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:21 am

emerald wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:55 pm
Jumping into this thread as someone who believes their relationship is romantic to counter some anti-points. I totally respect everyone's opinions to not believe they're in a romantic relationship, but I think some of the points used against them being a couple aren't real anti-reasons.

First of all, Dan's reaction to Phan vs Dan's reaction to people thinking he's not straight. I see where you're coming from here, but just put yourself in their shoes (or specifically Dan's shoes). Imo, in his situation, I'd be more inclined to deny being in a relationship than deny being not-straight. Remember back in 2009 when Dan openly said he was bi? And answered numerous asks about it? On the other hand, he never said anything about his relationship with Phil. Yes, they were very flirty and there were a lot of things which would imply ~something more~ but my point is, their relationship has never been open despite both of them stating non-heterosexuality in the foetus years. This shows how "out" they are individually vs as a couple: they've always been more willing to say they're not straight than to say they're dating. So, reasonably, they'd deny being together more agressively than being bi/gay/whatever the Phandom thought. Personally, in their situation, I'd be the same because being ambiguous about a relationship is both a lot more specific and a lot more suspicious than not explicitly saying "I'm not attracted to men". Most people don't explicitly state their sexuality, but with relationships, it's often quite black-and-white; you either are or aren't romantic/more-than-platonic. There's no default sexuality, but a default positive relationship with someone is purely platonic, and people are going to assume that until told otherwise (I mean, there will be situations where people assume you to be a couple, but that's just being pedantic and you know what I mean).

To people who think they're straight, do you really think that lowly of them? Because if they were, they'd be textbook queerbaiting (especially Dan). If either of them were straight, my opinion of both would diminish drastically, because regardless of whether or not it was a conscious decision, if it never occured to them that their behaviour might be interpreted as queer to their largely LGBTQ+ audience, then that just shows ignorance. And, of course, if the decision was a conscious one, that's just plain shitty and would paint them as homophobic manipulators.

To people who think they're not necessarily straight but aren't dating, they would still be shipbaiting imo. While I definitely think the boundaries people set for m/m friendships are ridiculous and two men should definitely be able to be emotionally intimate with each other without it being read as ~gay~, their absolute aversion to addressing the shippers would read to me as queerbaiting, plus certain things which were definitely done to pander to the shippers (and I don't think that's necessarily wrong if they are in a relationship, but if they aren't, that adds a layer to the shipbaiting argument, doesn't it?). If I was in their position and our relationship wasn't romantic, I would do more to specify that we weren't together. Because they've definitely treated their relationship with more ambiguity lately, and if they are not and never were in a relationship, that would definitely amount to shipbaiting in my opinion. The individual actions aren't necessarily shipbaiting, but the whole dynamic around addressing Phan feels like, in a situation where they're completely platonic, shipbaiting.
I really only lurk here but I did want to rise from the shadows a bit to share my opinion on the whole shipbaiting thing, as it is something that gets brought up a lot by shippers, and people who just want to hate on DnP. I'm not an anti, used to be a shipper, now I sort of lean towards 'no', but it's far from a concrete opinion, and I do think it would be cool if they were actually a couple.

I definitely think queerbaiting (and by extension, shipbaiting) is a problem, but IMO it's kind of a finer line between actual real people than it is between two characters. Youtubers who use almost-kisses as deceptive thumbnails, or clickbaity titles about coming out when they're straight, etc? Very annoying and falls into bait territory for sure. But DnP...I just don't see it tbh. I would be curious to know what things you consider to be pandering, because I honestly don't find most of their actions nowadays to be abnormal for people in a strictly platonic relationship.

They're not overly touchy feely on camera, and they don't joke about being in a relationship. When asked about whether Phan was real or not, Dan denied it pretty vehemently by comparing sex to Phil to sex with his grandma, granted that was years ago now but just pointing out that, at least at one point, they (well, mostly Dan lol) were not adverse to addressing the shippers. I feel like they did what they could to specify they weren't together, but they've come to accept that shippers gonna ship regardless of whether or not they deny.

Hopefully this didn't come off as rude or incoherent, I'm having one of those nights where I'm super tired but can't sleep :(

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by alch » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:46 am

nocturnal wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:21 am
But DnP...I just don't see it tbh. I would be curious to know what things you consider to be pandering, because I honestly don't find most of their actions nowadays to be abnormal for people in a strictly platonic relationship.
I mean, I'm pretty pro-phan so I may not be the best person to answer this (feel free to correct me)

Honestly, their pandering isn't something that would actually suggest they're together, everything they do still leaves room for doubt. Their baiting is just stuff that will make shippers excited and prove gif-fodder.

Like, take their TATINOF fanfic irl segment or their fics in TABINOF. I'd certainly call that baiting, but it's still not an un-platonic thing to do. But it still

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by lionheart » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:46 pm

I know this thread is sorta dead because there really aren't many anti-Phan people who come here, but yeah I think about this whole thing sometimes and it bugs me for days at a time :?

I've always leaned towards 'no' - primarily because it has been denied by them multiple times in the past, and the fact that they push that they're 'friends' or 'best friends' (like, that's what their joint branding is essentially) is just kinda weird if they are and have been dating for however long. I don't really see any sexual chemistry between them either... At least not in recent years, although I do see some kind of *something* from their very early videos together.

At the same time, I can't assume that they're not together because some things just don't add up from the outside. I'd be surprised if they had managed to get away with dating other people as I'm sure they'd be spotted *somewhere* at some point, and they do seem to do everything together anyway. They could, of course, just not be that interested in dating at all, or they could really be *that* sneaky but idk :shrug: I've never quite had a friendship like those two, but I have had friends who I'd do pretty much everything with at certain points in my life - the kind of friends who you're glued at the hip to, so to speak - so I don't think it's entirely unlikely that they could just have one of the loveliest friendships I've ever seen :platonic: and let's not forget, it does good for their business for them to be physically close to one another (in terms of sharing a house together etc.)

I'm rambling really, the mystery surrounding them just kinda bothers me sometimes. I don't want them ever to feel like they have to tell us for real what the truth is, they're incredibly private people after all, but oh boy would it be nice to know for sure :lol:

Also as a final note, as a couple other people have mentioned across the site, I do tend to dislike the way that a lot of the Phandom just assume they are a couple and pretty much force that opinion on others. I know I'm in a minority to be leaning more towards no than yes, but the reality is that NONE of us really know the truth and we quite possibly never will. I just don't like that it's pretty much assumed that they're together. All we have to go on is stuff from videos, where they do push friendship (in spite of whatever innuendos or whatever we might pick up on), tweets, instagram stuff - all of which, really, doesn't give much away at all about their private lives. I think Dan and Phil have this wonderful knack of seeming like they show us a lot of their lives and making us feel like we know them really well, when in reality most of their day-to-day life and what they really get up to is super private.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by whatdoiknow » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:06 am

lionheart wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:46 pm
Also as a final note, as a couple other people have mentioned across the site, I do tend to dislike the way that a lot of the Phandom just assume they are a couple and pretty much force that opinion on others. I know I'm in a minority to be leaning more towards no than yes, but the reality is that NONE of us really know the truth and we quite possibly never will. I just don't like that it's pretty much assumed that they're together. All we have to go on is stuff from videos, where they do push friendship (in spite of whatever innuendos or whatever we might pick up on), tweets, instagram stuff - all of which, really, doesn't give much away at all about their private lives. I think Dan and Phil have this wonderful knack of seeming like they show us a lot of their lives and making us feel like we know them really well, when in reality most of their day-to-day life and what they really get up to is super private.
I agree with a lot of this. I don't have a problem with people being sure they are together and saying that, and I don't really think people can "force" their opinion on people so I don't know if I agree with that specific part. But I do find that sometimes people can be maybe a bit... condescending? to people that don't think they are together or are not completely sure. I am perfectly fine with people being sure they are together and celebrating that and talking about it however they want.

My only problem is when some people get on a bit of a high horse and kind of make fun of others for not seeing what they see. It doesn't bother me personally because that sort of thing doesn't affect me, but I do feel bad for maybe younger or just insecure people having others make fun of them or talk down to them. I don't think this happens too often, but I do see it happen sometimes. Like you said, at the end of the day nobody really knows the truth. If you are certain in your mind they are in a relationship, that's totally cool and you can talk about it however you like (I actually love seeing people talk about their relationship from the side of believing 100% they are together), just don't be rude to others that don't share your opinion. This obvs goes for both sides.

For context, my opinion of "shipping phan" - I would say I ship then in the sense that I read fanfic, think they would make a great couple, love reading posts about them and seeing cute gifs, etc etc. Do I ship then in the sense of believing they are together? I think I've talked about this in the main thread discussion, so I'll just say briefly that I'm not on one side or the other; I can totally see them being together (and I see it more and more over time - I'm a big picture sort of person, and the more I see, the more these things add up to point to the big picture of them being together), but I am not 100% sure. Basically, I wouldn't be all that shocked if they were in a relationship or if they were just close friends.

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