If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by anathema » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:29 pm

melon lord wrote:I've been thinking about this for a while and I just like to theorise anyway because I have no life.

TL;DR I think Dan had a huge crush on Phil that wasn't reciprocated.
1) To explain, I think Dan had a huge fanboy/senpai moment with Phil and got really attached to him. He mentioned in one of his tumblrs that he was not the best example of a human being and was prone to lying a lot back then. I mean, he was phil trash no1. Same tastes, similar style, I think he had an infatuation with him and tried as hard as he could to get his attention. I think he really, really tried to be everything Phil would want. I think his infatuation sprung up curiosity over his sexuality and whether he is for real or not is another story, I feel that maybe it was just a phase he went through due to Phil. Not that he "wasn't" bisexual at the time and lied, just... got carried away.

2) In ISG 3 there was a question @2:35 about unrequited love from a friend.



He says "A tough situation that actually happens to quite a lot of people. The fact is if you don't feel the same way about her, that is just something that she will have to get over. It is awkward, and it will probably give her emotional heart cramps for a very long time, but if your friendship is special, there is no reason for it to end"

The last bit struck me as interesting. :thumb: Now sure, it's very reasonable advice any way you look at it, from any person. But people usually go down the "cool it off and let them heal on their own" route, the whole "friendship is special and we don't want it to go away" is less chosen because let's be real, heartbreak sucks balls. The fact that he's that type of person says a lot about where he prioritises the people he cares about. "if the friendship is special", eh Dan?

3) His meltdown on tumblr. I think his huge rant over phan which is basically an outright denial of it, maybe hit a few nerves. I mean yeah it's annoying as fuck to be in Dan's position but his rant sounded like a lot of suppressed emotions let out at once. Like "it's p-l-a-t-o-n-i-c" means "it's not anything because I wanted it to be but Phil didn't and I have to deal with the what ifs all the time due to fans". I think by now he'll have moved on and probably cooled down a bit, maybe even settled more on how he feels about sexuality or other people. But I can't say why that time was so intense for him.

4) Dan is a precious cupcake (pistachio cupcake amirite 8-) ) and it seems like Phil, despite his childish persona, seems a lot more independent and roamy than Dan. Like genuinely, almost everyone he calls a friend is through Phil. There is the "jealous dan returns" video and he just seems miffed honestly, while Phil is saying about all the new roomates they could have. Like Phil just seems more like the guy who could survive just by being more outgoing and sociable and Dan is the shy wallflower that clings to his friend (no shaming I'm the same ngl). Phil is so often going to his family for visits, while Dan is left alone. How often is Phil alone while Dan is out? I know he tries to front that he's actually got a life but I think to an extent his internet branding is on point.

I had more points but I'm brainfarting right now so will add when remembered
Very interesting theory. I've seen similar theories a couple of times but yours is the only one I've seen that actually has something to back it up :lol: . I do have one question though; so, back when they first met, they had all those ""flirty"" tweets. Now that I think about it, most of them were Dan to Phil, which would make sense, but I do think a couple were Phil to Dan. (And then you've also got things like the PINOF hug.) So, assuming Phil knew about Dan's crush early on into their friendship, why would Phil be so careless (for lack of a better word) about what he said/did? Like, if I was Phil in that situation, I would try and not do anything to "suggestive"/misleading so as to not make the other person feel bad.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by melon lord » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:59 pm

spider wrote::thanks: melon lord your post has the best explanation I have seen from a non shipper. Have not seen anyone mention the ISG answer before.

How do you explain Voldy? Do you think it was a prank like Deppy said? Wouldn't it be cruel to Dan because of his feelings for Phil? It was only a couple months after they met so wouldn't Dan not have enough time to move on from his feelings? Especially if he was still hurt about it in 2012.
anathema wrote: Very interesting theory. I've seen similar theories a couple of times but yours is the only one I've seen that actually has something to back it up :lol: . I do have one question though; so, back when they first met, they had all those ""flirty"" tweets. Now that I think about it, most of them were Dan to Phil, which would make sense, but I do think a couple were Phil to Dan. (And then you've also got things like the PINOF hug.) So, assuming Phil knew about Dan's crush early on into their friendship, why would Phil be so careless (for lack of a better word) about what he said/did? Like, if I was Phil in that situation, I would try and not do anything to "suggestive"/misleading so as to not make the other person feel bad.
My theory is that for a long time they were in that "new friend" honeymoon phase, so everything seemed super close and personal. I remember when I became close with a friend at the time and we'd hold hands together and be joined at the hip and talk as though we just discovered each other's soulmate. Now we just shitpost and we cool. :lol: But I mean that for Dan at least, Phil has had a profound impact on him as a person. He really, really tried to get his attention (as he mentioned a lot). I think Phil would be really into the idea of such a close friend but as it turns out, a lot of people enjoy friendships with someone until they find out that the other person has feelings for them and they are like "oops sorry about that".

Also their unconfirmed sexuality can add an extra layer of intimacy. It's more of a social "norm" that guy friends are just bros and not touchy feely or emotionally expressive. If you see two girls acting the way deppy do you might assume they are just besties because women are more open to interpretation and are raised to be more open and available. With males as soon as two friends sit so close their shoulders touch everyone screams "gay!1!!!!!11".

I sway a lot on voldy. Part of me thought wow that's a really intimate moment. Another part of me feels like it really could have been an inside joke between them as a troll moment. Of course I'm not Phil, but if I personally was making a video like that, I wouldn't go into so much detail over what happened because the person is presumably already there. Phil gave so much context and scenario in the video that there is no doubt in your mind.

^ It's like if you go to your friend and be like "hey remember [person]'s party?" they'll remember everything (assuming that they do recall and you don't have to remind them) without you needing to explain, because it was a shared memory. Phil was like "hey remember when we went to Dil's party at the beach by that one house where we sat on those stairs and looked at those stars and then we rolled around and made sand angels and then I kissed you and you blushed and then [...]"

Basically voldy reminds me of this moment :lol:

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I think that time when Dan was SUPER distant with Phil and almost warped himself into another dimension to avoid any phan/touching/shipping bait is when he had to heal and come to terms with the idea. I don't think it happened quickly. I feel like for a long time they were both super intense for each other -> they became domestic and maybe Phil didn't feel the same way -> Dan had to accept it and also they tried to keep their friendship going while living together.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by spaceguitar » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:06 am

Makes sense melon lord. I know I certainly thought about that unrequited scenario when I originally saw that ISG moment. The only thing that bothers me about that theory is that Dan wasn't just flirty with Phil- he implied that they had sex (Uma Thurman just watched me have sex). And then in Voldy Phil also implies that they messed around. Basically, I'm not sure that they were entirely platonic.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by melon lord » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:12 am

That can be either Dan being an internet attention seeker and lying about it, or they did mess around as you said. Like his statement can only branch out two ways.

Kill Bill was a huge thing for him back then. I don't even know if they still mention it anymore. It seems buried in the past with everything else. Even the so precious Tonberry is hanging around somewhere in their house.

Also in the tour of Dan's brain you have the heartbreak with a bandage bit. I don't recall him mentioning ever about serious heartbreak from his female exes, prior to Phil. Unless honestly he's messed around with other Youtubers, although I doubt it.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by spider » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:58 am

Like your theory a lot melon lord. You explained it well. Do you have any other examples you can think of?

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Zaz » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:06 am

spider wrote:Like your theory a lot melon lord. You explained it well. Do you have any other examples you can think of?
Same i think it is an interesting theory and you gave good example to back it up, what bothers me is their relationship now. I'd like to know if you still think its the case now between them. Because if it really is an unrequited crush, can you imagine the pain? And living with the person, letting the intimacy grow, imo you can't get over sb that way. You're bound to fall deeper for your friend. And i know the advice dan gave in isg but we could also understand heartache on a larger scale, for example his relationship with his family?
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by peekatyou » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:48 pm

You have a very interesting theory indeed melon lord, but can I ask you what you think the reason was for Phil to reject Dan's feelings?
I'm open to all theories but my personal one is that very early on they both were super into each other and with time things slowly - in a natural way - started to change, and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was Dan who was the first one to back off, and Phil just kinda went along with it with 'yeah, sure, whatever works for you works for me' attitude. Now, it's hard to remain friends after something like that has happened, let alone best friends, but from what we can see they somehow managed to do that very successfully.
Now that I actually think about the 'Dan's crush wasn't reciprocated' theory, I feel like it would've taken Dan like a million years to overcome the pain of rejection. Apparently he had crippling self-esteem at the time they met, and had Phil told him something along the lines of 'sorry I'm not going there,' I think Dan would've left him without hesitation - because why stay?.. So I'm inclined to believe it's the fact that Phil reciprocated Dan's affection that made everything we have now possible.
Anyway, just my thoughts on this whole thing.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by wowza » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:36 pm

I find that a lot of phan shippers use the V Day video as proof, but I see it as proof that phan isn't real.

I saw a post by this blog called "counterphan", and since I am lazy as heck to rephrase it, I am going to quote a big point that makes me think the video was a prank.
The main reason I don’t think it’s real is that it actually feels tailor-made for shippers. People say everything on there can be backed up by tweets, formspring, etc, but it’s actually the other way around. If you think about it, nearly everything in the vid comes from things they publicly posted - mostly tweets but also a few formsprings and dailybooths. The tweets etc. came first, so rather than them referring to the vid, the vid is referring to them. Every reference Phil makes is something that their subscribers knew about, with a few extra details added to turn friendship scenarios into romantic date scenarios (like the kisses, holding hands, etc.). It’s all too perfectly parallel, it’s like they had a checklist of everything people interpreted as cute and coupley, or as ambiguous and possibly sexual, up to that point and fit as much of them as they could into one video - the day they met, filming the Christmas Adventure, Dan spending a week at Phil’s, watching Wall-E, Starbucks, saying Maaariooo, cherry everywhere, the Halloween gathering, long skype calls, going to see Avatar 3-D, Interrupted By Fireworks, Holding My Thoughts in My Heart, Dan buying Phil loads of birthday presents - it’s all there, right down to the clothing they wore, all things they talked about or did in pics, tweets, or videos. If look at their tweets and compare them to what Phil says in the video, he’s practically quoting parts of his and Dan’s tweets! That doesn’t seem spontaneous or romantic. And do really think the song they would associate with their most romantic moments would be a video game song?

The only two instances we don’t have more specific references (like a twee) to are them going on Manchester Eye that first day, and the abandoned hospital, but these may have just been the couple of things that were lost (we don’t have the blogtv recordings for instance, nor do we have every dailybooth or formspring). But we do know that they were in Manchester that first day and what they were wearing, and we know that they filmed a video outside in the snow and what they were wearing that day.

My second reason is related to the first. Because it was made for the shippers (I know that some have argued that there weren’t any shippers back then, and I disagree but I won’t get into that here), it’s all kept very cutesy and PG. Once again, it seems aimed more at the viewers/subscribers. It’s all very sweet and romantic but in kind of a generic way. Phil says some romantic things you’d expect any couple to say, but avoids saying anything truly significant and specific to their relationship (I’m talking about deeper things here, not just what they wore and where they went). Instead he spends most of the video enumerating things they did, which Dan and everyone else already knows about, why focus on that? If phan was real, then at this point they would have been in a romantic relationship for several months at least, and they had already developed a deep connection months before that, even before they met irl. By this point, if it was real, they most likely had had sex more than once, plus many more intimate moments of kissing and cuddling and sharing their deepest thoughts, feelings, hopes & fears, etc. If this was truly meant for Dan’s eyes and ears only, than why all the oblique references? He never makes any reference to something intimate that was said in private (again something more that what you would expect any actual adult couple to say) and he never makes any overt reference to the physical nature of their relationship (I’m talking about more than a couple of briefly mentioned kisses and I don’t count the cherry reference because it’s so oblique it can actually mean anything or nothing. And they never said the cherry reference was about lube, that’s an inference someone else made and everyone else just ran with it). Also, Phil never makes a reference that we can’t understand, when in reality, if they were in a relationship, they would have inside references that would mean something only to the two of them. They would’ve had deep discussions we’ve never heard. I think it’s significant and telling that he never says anything real, like why he fell in love with Dan, or why he still loves him, like what was it about him that made him lovable? His eyes, his laugh, his dimpled smile, his sense of humor? The way it feels to hold him, or be held by him? Remember, this is supposed to be a video love letter specifically for Dan and he doesn’t think anyone else is going to see it. He would have no reason to hold back, they’re both adults here. Why not show a little affection, mention something a bit more physical? Kiss the camera, show a little skin, heck, even a wink or a camera hug. Or mention something much more intimate, something personal they’ve never shared with anyone else but each other. But there’s nothing like that, nothing at all. Phil is a 22 year old man here, and we know from his older videos and tweets (from like 2008-2009), he’s really not that innocent as he appears now, probably even less so in private. And if he made this while Dan was in India, why didn’t Phil say “I miss you, I can’t wait til you get home” or something along those lines? These are all the kinds of things you say and do when you’re happy and in love, especially when you’re doing something romantic for your loved one on Valentine’s Day. The only part that sounds genuine to me is at the very end when he says “I’m so happy to have you in my life, and… you are the best person in the world. So thank you, for being so amazing.” But that could be easily said to a friend. And why didn’t he say “you are the best boyfriend?”

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by NarrysCanary » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:13 pm

I like your theory melon lord, it's well explained and founded ! :thumb:
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by anathema » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:15 pm

wowza wrote:I find that a lot of phan shippers use the V Day video as proof, but I see it as proof that phan isn't real.

I saw a post by this blog called "counterphan", and since I am lazy as heck to rephrase it, I am going to quote a big point that makes me think the video was a prank.
The main reason I don’t think it’s real is that it actually feels tailor-made for shippers. People say everything on there can be backed up by tweets, formspring, etc, but it’s actually the other way around. If you think about it, nearly everything in the vid comes from things they publicly posted - mostly tweets but also a few formsprings and dailybooths. The tweets etc. came first, so rather than them referring to the vid, the vid is referring to them. Every reference Phil makes is something that their subscribers knew about, with a few extra details added to turn friendship scenarios into romantic date scenarios (like the kisses, holding hands, etc.). It’s all too perfectly parallel, it’s like they had a checklist of everything people interpreted as cute and coupley, or as ambiguous and possibly sexual, up to that point and fit as much of them as they could into one video - the day they met, filming the Christmas Adventure, Dan spending a week at Phil’s, watching Wall-E, Starbucks, saying Maaariooo, cherry everywhere, the Halloween gathering, long skype calls, going to see Avatar 3-D, Interrupted By Fireworks, Holding My Thoughts in My Heart, Dan buying Phil loads of birthday presents - it’s all there, right down to the clothing they wore, all things they talked about or did in pics, tweets, or videos. If look at their tweets and compare them to what Phil says in the video, he’s practically quoting parts of his and Dan’s tweets! That doesn’t seem spontaneous or romantic. And do really think the song they would associate with their most romantic moments would be a video game song?

The only two instances we don’t have more specific references (like a twee) to are them going on Manchester Eye that first day, and the abandoned hospital, but these may have just been the couple of things that were lost (we don’t have the blogtv recordings for instance, nor do we have every dailybooth or formspring). But we do know that they were in Manchester that first day and what they were wearing, and we know that they filmed a video outside in the snow and what they were wearing that day.

My second reason is related to the first. Because it was made for the shippers (I know that some have argued that there weren’t any shippers back then, and I disagree but I won’t get into that here), it’s all kept very cutesy and PG. Once again, it seems aimed more at the viewers/subscribers. It’s all very sweet and romantic but in kind of a generic way. Phil says some romantic things you’d expect any couple to say, but avoids saying anything truly significant and specific to their relationship (I’m talking about deeper things here, not just what they wore and where they went). Instead he spends most of the video enumerating things they did, which Dan and everyone else already knows about, why focus on that? If phan was real, then at this point they would have been in a romantic relationship for several months at least, and they had already developed a deep connection months before that, even before they met irl. By this point, if it was real, they most likely had had sex more than once, plus many more intimate moments of kissing and cuddling and sharing their deepest thoughts, feelings, hopes & fears, etc. If this was truly meant for Dan’s eyes and ears only, than why all the oblique references? He never makes any reference to something intimate that was said in private (again something more that what you would expect any actual adult couple to say) and he never makes any overt reference to the physical nature of their relationship (I’m talking about more than a couple of briefly mentioned kisses and I don’t count the cherry reference because it’s so oblique it can actually mean anything or nothing. And they never said the cherry reference was about lube, that’s an inference someone else made and everyone else just ran with it). Also, Phil never makes a reference that we can’t understand, when in reality, if they were in a relationship, they would have inside references that would mean something only to the two of them. They would’ve had deep discussions we’ve never heard. I think it’s significant and telling that he never says anything real, like why he fell in love with Dan, or why he still loves him, like what was it about him that made him lovable? His eyes, his laugh, his dimpled smile, his sense of humor? The way it feels to hold him, or be held by him? Remember, this is supposed to be a video love letter specifically for Dan and he doesn’t think anyone else is going to see it. He would have no reason to hold back, they’re both adults here. Why not show a little affection, mention something a bit more physical? Kiss the camera, show a little skin, heck, even a wink or a camera hug. Or mention something much more intimate, something personal they’ve never shared with anyone else but each other. But there’s nothing like that, nothing at all. Phil is a 22 year old man here, and we know from his older videos and tweets (from like 2008-2009), he’s really not that innocent as he appears now, probably even less so in private. And if he made this while Dan was in India, why didn’t Phil say “I miss you, I can’t wait til you get home” or something along those lines? These are all the kinds of things you say and do when you’re happy and in love, especially when you’re doing something romantic for your loved one on Valentine’s Day. The only part that sounds genuine to me is at the very end when he says “I’m so happy to have you in my life, and… you are the best person in the world. So thank you, for being so amazing.” But that could be easily said to a friend. And why didn’t he say “you are the best boyfriend?”
Wait, how do you feel like voldy being a prank = phan isn't real? I think it's more than likely a prank too, but I don't think that really disproves phan in anyway.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by CallMeAyana » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:23 pm

wowza wrote:I find that a lot of phan shippers use the V Day video as proof, but I see it as proof that phan isn't real.

I saw a post by this blog called "counterphan", and since I am lazy as heck to rephrase it, I am going to quote a big point that makes me think the video was a prank.
The main reason I don’t think it’s real is that it actually feels tailor-made for shippers. People say everything on there can be backed up by tweets, formspring, etc, but it’s actually the other way around. If you think about it, nearly everything in the vid comes from things they publicly posted - mostly tweets but also a few formsprings and dailybooths. The tweets etc. came first, so rather than them referring to the vid, the vid is referring to them. Every reference Phil makes is something that their subscribers knew about, with a few extra details added to turn friendship scenarios into romantic date scenarios (like the kisses, holding hands, etc.). It’s all too perfectly parallel, it’s like they had a checklist of everything people interpreted as cute and coupley, or as ambiguous and possibly sexual, up to that point and fit as much of them as they could into one video - the day they met, filming the Christmas Adventure, Dan spending a week at Phil’s, watching Wall-E, Starbucks, saying Maaariooo, cherry everywhere, the Halloween gathering, long skype calls, going to see Avatar 3-D, Interrupted By Fireworks, Holding My Thoughts in My Heart, Dan buying Phil loads of birthday presents - it’s all there, right down to the clothing they wore, all things they talked about or did in pics, tweets, or videos. If look at their tweets and compare them to what Phil says in the video, he’s practically quoting parts of his and Dan’s tweets! That doesn’t seem spontaneous or romantic. And do really think the song they would associate with their most romantic moments would be a video game song?

The only two instances we don’t have more specific references (like a twee) to are them going on Manchester Eye that first day, and the abandoned hospital, but these may have just been the couple of things that were lost (we don’t have the blogtv recordings for instance, nor do we have every dailybooth or formspring). But we do know that they were in Manchester that first day and what they were wearing, and we know that they filmed a video outside in the snow and what they were wearing that day.

My second reason is related to the first. Because it was made for the shippers (I know that some have argued that there weren’t any shippers back then, and I disagree but I won’t get into that here), it’s all kept very cutesy and PG. Once again, it seems aimed more at the viewers/subscribers. It’s all very sweet and romantic but in kind of a generic way. Phil says some romantic things you’d expect any couple to say, but avoids saying anything truly significant and specific to their relationship (I’m talking about deeper things here, not just what they wore and where they went). Instead he spends most of the video enumerating things they did, which Dan and everyone else already knows about, why focus on that? If phan was real, then at this point they would have been in a romantic relationship for several months at least, and they had already developed a deep connection months before that, even before they met irl. By this point, if it was real, they most likely had had sex more than once, plus many more intimate moments of kissing and cuddling and sharing their deepest thoughts, feelings, hopes & fears, etc. If this was truly meant for Dan’s eyes and ears only, than why all the oblique references? He never makes any reference to something intimate that was said in private (again something more that what you would expect any actual adult couple to say) and he never makes any overt reference to the physical nature of their relationship (I’m talking about more than a couple of briefly mentioned kisses and I don’t count the cherry reference because it’s so oblique it can actually mean anything or nothing. And they never said the cherry reference was about lube, that’s an inference someone else made and everyone else just ran with it). Also, Phil never makes a reference that we can’t understand, when in reality, if they were in a relationship, they would have inside references that would mean something only to the two of them. They would’ve had deep discussions we’ve never heard. I think it’s significant and telling that he never says anything real, like why he fell in love with Dan, or why he still loves him, like what was it about him that made him lovable? His eyes, his laugh, his dimpled smile, his sense of humor? The way it feels to hold him, or be held by him? Remember, this is supposed to be a video love letter specifically for Dan and he doesn’t think anyone else is going to see it. He would have no reason to hold back, they’re both adults here. Why not show a little affection, mention something a bit more physical? Kiss the camera, show a little skin, heck, even a wink or a camera hug. Or mention something much more intimate, something personal they’ve never shared with anyone else but each other. But there’s nothing like that, nothing at all. Phil is a 22 year old man here, and we know from his older videos and tweets (from like 2008-2009), he’s really not that innocent as he appears now, probably even less so in private. And if he made this while Dan was in India, why didn’t Phil say “I miss you, I can’t wait til you get home” or something along those lines? These are all the kinds of things you say and do when you’re happy and in love, especially when you’re doing something romantic for your loved one on Valentine’s Day. The only part that sounds genuine to me is at the very end when he says “I’m so happy to have you in my life, and… you are the best person in the world. So thank you, for being so amazing.” But that could be easily said to a friend. And why didn’t he say “you are the best boyfriend?”
Well, this post really made me doubt Phan for a moment, but.. They could have just uploaded the "JUST A PRANK!!" video (or whatever it's supposed to be called) after the video became unprivated. Phil did confirmed that it is a prank (if it's a cover-up or just the truth, we'll never know), but it would have been better if they made a video about it to avoid the stirring of a drama. Like, back in 2012, I'll just assume that most of the phandom already knows about the drama, and it would have been better if they outright denied it in a video (or something). Instead of clearing it up, they acted suspicious (in Dan's case, anyway), and it lead to more drama. Though, the shipping did them some good.
Anyways, there's my two cents, and.. I think I forgot something, but.. that's for another time since I can't remember it.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by spider » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:16 am

Zaz wrote:I'd like to know if you still think its the case now between them. Because if it really is an unrequited crush, can you imagine the pain? And living with the person, letting the intimacy grow, imo you can't get over sb that way. You're bound to fall deeper for your friend. And i know the advice dan gave in isg but we could also understand heartache on a larger scale, for example his relationship with his family?
There isn't a rule that you are going to fall more in love. Dan probably decided their friendship was more important than his crush and even though it was painful he chose to have their friendship and move on. They always said they are 'best friends' and that is obviously the most important thing to them.
peekatyou wrote:I'm open to all theories but my personal one is that very early on they both were super into each other and with time things slowly - in a natural way - started to change, and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was Dan who was the first one to back off, and Phil just kinda went along with it with 'yeah, sure, whatever works for you works for me' attitude. Now, it's hard to remain friends after something like that has happened, let alone best friends, but from what we can see they somehow managed to do that very successfully.
This doesn't make sense to me that they 'backed off'. It sounds like they became less attached to each other and Phil just said he does not even leave the house without Dan. They only are more 'super into each other' after so many years. If phan was ever real it does not seem like it ever became not real.
wowza wrote:I find that a lot of phan shippers use the V Day video as proof, but I see it as proof that phan isn't real.
This quote is all old things that were discussed too many times already but for some reason I wrote this long reply so it will be in a spoiler.
wowza wrote:I saw a post by this blog called "counterphan", and since I am lazy as heck to rephrase it, I am going to quote a big point that makes me think the video was a prank.
If you think about it, nearly everything in the vid comes from things they publicly posted - mostly tweets but also a few formsprings and dailybooths.
They shared everything online at that time. They even shared travel plans like train tickets. It doesn't mean anything that almost everything in the video was said online.
And do really think the song they would associate with their most romantic moments would be a video game song?
Is this really something to say about these 2 big nerds who have nerdy things all over their flat? :roll:
Because it was made for the shippers (I know that some have argued that there weren’t any shippers back then, and I disagree but I won’t get into that here), it’s all kept very cutesy and PG.

he never makes any overt reference to the physical nature of their relationship (I’m talking about more than a couple of briefly mentioned kisses and I don’t count the cherry reference because it’s so oblique it can actually mean anything or nothing. And they never said the cherry reference was about lube, that’s an inference someone else made and everyone else just ran with it).
He drew them in bed in only underwear and Dan with a bulge.

What does cherry mean if it's not lube? Why did he say 'so much cherry everywhere' with only a black screen right after the picture of them in bed in their underwear? Why did they compare cherry and pina colada in the formspring question?
Remember, this is supposed to be a video love letter specifically for Dan and he doesn’t think anyone else is going to see it. He would have no reason to hold back, they’re both adults here. Why not show a little affection, mention something a bit more physical? Kiss the camera, show a little skin, heck, even a wink or a camera hug.

Phil is a 22 year old man here, and we know from his older videos and tweets (from like 2008-2009), he’s really not that innocent as he appears now, probably even less so in private.
He was making a video saying 'I love you' not a strip tease. Why would he show more skin or be more sexual? The other things sound like they are nitpicking 'why did he do the hand heart instead of something else'.
These are all the kinds of things you say and do when you’re happy and in love, especially when you’re doing something romantic for your loved one on Valentine’s Day. The only part that sounds genuine to me is at the very end when he says “I’m so happy to have you in my life, and… you are the best person in the world. So thank you, for being so amazing.” But that could be easily said to a friend. And why didn’t he say “you are the best boyfriend?”
You left out that he said 'I just want to say that I love you so much' right before the quote.

If he said 'best boyfriend' there are other people who could be more important like his platonic best friend or his family member. It means more that he said he thinks Dan is better than anybody else in the world.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by mio » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:28 am

Spoiler because old voldy discussion
I was about to point the same things out as spider!
Also what I never really understood was the argument that it must be a prank because there are so many verifiable details mentioned in it. If I were to make an april fools joke about something that creeps me out, I'd be sure to NOT make it look too real, especially since it will be taken out of context. Also why would it have to withhold a sherlockian online investigation if it's really just a joke that will go on for a few hours, a day max. Most april fools jokes work in a way that you are confused/shocked at first but fairly quickly catch on that it's just a prank and feel stupid for even believing it in the first place. Like the crafts channel, it's funny and over the top so that at the end of the first video it was pretty clear that this is just a joke. There was nothing like this in the vday video and also there was apparently no "IT'S JUST A PRANK LOL" video/post/anything that they prepared like CallMeAyana said. If the point of doing this video was throwing the shippers off and showing them how ridiculous the idea of Phan is, then it wasn't really thought through very well.

So yeah, you can of course assume that they made this video full of real and/or invented scenarios instead of a generic "I love you" video to make it really damn believable, thus giving the shippers even more details and background of their private lives to speculate on and research about (which are the things they supposedly were creeped out by). Or you can just guess that Phil mentions all these things because like, they are actually things that happened.
Anyway on the topic of unrequited crushes and such, I think this is a solid theory.
I personally think that the early stuff of them flirting and messing around is real, but at some point one of them realized that it wasnt working or they rushed ahead with the relationship thing too quickly (to me the whole timeline of 2009/2010 reads like a messy head-over-heels teenager lovestory that might as well cool down just as quickly) so they decided they were better off as friends, especially since they were working so well together in terms of humour and joint projects.
It's true that in this case it sounds like the process was more painful for Dan, judging from his reaction in 2012.
How their relationship developed after that since they've grown more and more attached to each other again, who knows..?
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by annetamiau » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:21 pm

re: the unrequited crush theory. I don't see how it makes sense. It's like incredibly masochistic to continue living with someone you have one-sided feelings for, if it's not out of obligation (because you can't afford rent on your own and have a contract, or something like this). Even if you tried to focus on the friendship because you value each other immensly as friends, think of the drama if the person you love got in a relationship or had one night stands. I don't think anyone would want to listen to the person they love having sex next room (flat walls are usually thin, you know). It would kill the friendship, I'm quite sure.

As I see it, only two scenarios make sense: either they have never been together or they have been together all the time. I don't see how you can go from more than friends to friends (even if you feel a unique connection), continue living together and socialising together and going on holiday together and not kill the friendship in the process.

Also, voldy: it's like extreme mental gymnastics to explain it as a prank, you have to be blind and deaf to believe it.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by mio » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:56 pm

annetamiau wrote:re: the unrequited crush theory. I don't see how it makes sense. It's like incredibly masochistic to continue living with someone you have one-sided feelings for, if it's not out of obligation (because you can't afford rent on your own and have a contract, or something like this). Even if you tried to focus on the friendship because you value each other immensly as friends, think of the drama if the person you love got in a relationship or had one night stands. I don't think anyone would want to listen to the person they love having sex next room (flat walls are usually thin, you know). It would kill the friendship, I'm quite sure.
Honestly... during my younger "crazier" days (17-20 or so) a lot of my friends (myself included) would hook up with each other and start short, imprudent relationships. A lot of these people are still good friends with each other today, no matter who messed around with whom at some point or not. I feel like this is even more common in the lgbtq community (though I can mostly speak of girl/girl couples). Also crushes are intense, but mostly they do pass...
Doesn't mean that this is true for Deppy, just saying it's nothing unthinkable
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by annetamiau » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:11 pm

mio wrote:
annetamiau wrote:re: the unrequited crush theory. I don't see how it makes sense. It's like incredibly masochistic to continue living with someone you have one-sided feelings for, if it's not out of obligation (because you can't afford rent on your own and have a contract, or something like this). Even if you tried to focus on the friendship because you value each other immensly as friends, think of the drama if the person you love got in a relationship or had one night stands. I don't think anyone would want to listen to the person they love having sex next room (flat walls are usually thin, you know). It would kill the friendship, I'm quite sure.
Honestly... during my younger "crazier" days (17-20 or so) a lot of my friends (myself included) would hook up with each other and start short, imprudent relationships. A lot of these people are still good friends with each other today, no matter who messed around with whom at some point or not. I feel like this is even more common in the lgbtq community (though I can mostly speak of girl/girl couples). Also crushes are intense, but mostly they do pass...
Doesn't mean that this is true for Deppy, just saying it's nothing unthinkable
I understand what you mean, it was the same when I was around that age, but there is a distinct difference, at least in my case. My friends and I never lived together, we saw each other frequently but we lived with our families. Also, hooking up as a teenager with your friends is not the same as being in a serious relationship (even if you start said relationship when you are 18-20), so I don't think it's the same kind of situation. After all, Dan went to university in Manchester in 2010 and they were living together in 2011, and have been living together ever since, so I don't think any of these compares to carelessly staring relationships with childhood friends as a teenager.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by melon lord » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:24 pm

annetamiau wrote:re: the unrequited crush theory. I don't see how it makes sense. It's like incredibly masochistic to continue living with someone you have one-sided feelings for, if it's not out of obligation (because you can't afford rent on your own and have a contract, or something like this). Even if you tried to focus on the friendship because you value each other immensly as friends, think of the drama if the person you love got in a relationship or had one night stands. I don't think anyone would want to listen to the person they love having sex next room (flat walls are usually thin, you know). It would kill the friendship, I'm quite sure.

As I see it, only two scenarios make sense: either they have never been together or they have been together all the time. I don't see how you can go from more than friends to friends (even if you feel a unique connection), continue living together and socialising together and going on holiday together and not kill the friendship in the process.

Also, voldy: it's like extreme mental gymnastics to explain it as a prank, you have to be blind and deaf to believe it.
Dan moving was a passage away from University and also away from his family. I have a feeling that he'd rather chew off his own arm than live in his home again. A lot of couples who break up have to live together for the time being due to obligations.

I mean, like I said, it's just my own theory. I can't always articulate it very well, and plot holes come up, but then plot holes also come up if they WERE together. If they were, imagine the strain that blatantly lying and hiding like that would have on a relationship. Not even just for them personally but also friends and fellow Youtubers, some of whom may not give a shit about

Honestly yeah those are the two big branches in the scenario, but what's that saying? "between two extremes, the truth lies somewhere in the middle"

Dan and Phil acted extremely flirty and provocatively with each other in the beginning but I don't see how the way Dan has spoken about Phil (like his grandma) or having to deny/be aware of himself all the time would be healthy on the relationship either. I'd be hurt if Dan referred to being with me as though being with his grandma, even if it was just something he said in a moment of emotion. Or if he had to constantly degrade me and devaluate me so that people don't suspect we're together.

I mean, hide from whom? Their families would know, first of all. You couldn't keep that a secret from family. Fans? Fans would love that shit. They already consume it and make a business out of it. Did management force them to sell the "single nerdy relatable handsome guy" angle to appeal to female fans while still be interesting and ambiguous enough to not raise suspicion? So what would be the problem? There would be no trouble being open and discreet about it or being together but making their own content like they do now.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by starlight-still » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:02 pm

melon lord This theory...I gotta let this one roll around in my head a bit because it's a pretty solid one.

In response to where Voldy fits in with all this- after looking at the 2009 tweets, I lowkey suspected that yes, they hooked up but maybe there was this big, public buildup to it but it fizzled out once it actually happened (from the physical/more-than-friends perspective). If YouTube was a smaller community where a lot of creators were, er, "collabing" off camera ifyouknowwhatImean, I can see deppy getting a lot of lenny faces from those who knew that they were meeting and had followed their correspondence leading up to when they first met. I could see Dan playing it cool enough with his feelings that making a prank video for the community audience was plausible. This was the point where they were just starting to see a fandom emerge around them and still learning about the mechanics of how what might be clearly a joke to those who knew them as fellow creators may not be so obvious to their fanbase. I also don't put it above Phil to be slightly less of an angel than we tend to think of him as and to put getting folks off his and Dan's jock above how difficult it may have been for Dan to fake something that he wanted and Phil didn't. In hindsight, maybe Phil realizes how cruel it was, hence the tireless removal of it from the Internet. Hmmm....

As another counterargument, my mind immediately went to Dan's answer to "Have you ever been in love?"

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He spoke of the first two instances in the past tense and the "real true requited love" in the present. There's a chance he was still playing to the audience at this point, giving them the perception that he and Phil were this love story for the ages when they weren't, part of that not the best example of a human being package.

The isg answer- I don't know if it was this clip or another one...has anyone seen another example of Dan saying something along the lines of "staying friends is worth it for the person, even if one might want more"? I'm not sure if I'm just remembering this example or if there was another one where he was even more

But could Phil have really been completely uninterested? I lean towards thinking it wasn't quite that extreme...emotionally unavailable perhaps, especially given that he'd just experienced a major loss. Maybe Dan waited it out in hope that it would change with time, and what time brought was a deep, caring friendship.

It's possible.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by CallMeAyana » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:11 pm

(Okay, I would have posted something on the main thread, but my parents will kill me if they find out that I'm still awake, and there are a lot of topics to cover there, so...)
About the things in voldy about being retraced to their Tweets: It's maybe because they really want to share it all to the world, and Phil elaborated some of those parts because he's reminscing it? You know what I mean? They want the world to know they're together, but since they need some little privacy too... voldy is (supposed to be) for their eyes only, you know what I mean?
I'm on mobile, and I feel cranky, so I'll leave this sheet of a reply here 'till I open my account again.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by arequian » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:18 pm

melon lord wrote:I mean, hide from whom? Their families would know, first of all. You couldn't keep that a secret from family. Fans? Fans would love that shit. They already consume it and make a business out of it. Did management force them to sell the "single nerdy relatable handsome guy" angle to appeal to female fans while still be interesting and ambiguous enough to not raise suspicion? So what would be the problem? There would be no trouble being open and discreet about it or being together but making their own content like they do now.
They're very private people, think for example how Dan manages the subject of his family, even Phil doesn't talk about his more than necessary. I think they would want privacy for their relationship (or a relationship with a third person, for that matter), and it's hard to have that when there's tens of thousands of people watching. Other youtubers have hidden (or tried to) their relationships for the same reason. I think there's plenty of possible reasons to hide a relationship when you're a public figure.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by annetamiau » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:21 pm

melon lord: regarding the 'why would they lie?' discussion, I don't think lying to their audience keeps them up at night or ever has, we are just a number, a source of income, and have no connection to them in real life. Whether they lie in regards to phan or not, they do keep things from their audience successfully (like the first book and TATINOF, no one saw that coming). They can just live life normally, it's not like other youtubers or a shop assistant would ask them 'are you together?' straight to their face and out of nowhere.

We are all speculating here, but what I meant in my first post was that, from all the possible scenarios, going from couple to best friends seems really unlikely to me because they have been living together all this time, not only that but socialising/working like a unit too. I mean every theory has its plot holes, but in my opinion lovers to friends doesn't make sense given their situation.

As for Dan being rude to Phil in 2012 and all that stuff, Dan was more blatant and 'agressive' in his denials, but Phil said 'we met through a mutual friend' first, asked Dan if he was single at least once (that I can remember) and upped the girlfriend/wife mentions a lot, so I do think they were on the same page during that period of time (in general).
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by melon lord » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:59 pm

There is a difference between hiding your family which has no relation to your content at all and just wants to be left in peace by intense fans, and the person you're collabing/living/making content with regularly who has also helped you build your brand and channel and oh also is heavily suspected to be your partner.

Also this was way back then when the fandom wasn't so big. If we talked now then yes I would appreciate the privacy until you were at *least* sure the relationship was a secure one, but back then it was a huge experimental time for the british youtube scene and also for since they were small enough to not have anyone care but important enough to have their relationship validated by their audience.

I honestly don't know what was up with both of them during 2012 and also why things changed now. If anything the fandom growing and their brand growing means that they are becoming a ticking clock. Eventually it will be pointless to even think about coming out.

Would it even be worth having that kind of relationship? Hiding from everyone? If it's "common knowledge" in the Youtube scene there's no way nobody has blabbed because they are decent people.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by spider » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:51 am

melon lord wrote:I mean, hide from whom? Their families would know, first of all. You couldn't keep that a secret from family. Fans? Fans would love that shit. They already consume it and make a business out of it. Did management force them to sell the "single nerdy relatable handsome guy" angle to appeal to female fans while still be interesting and ambiguous enough to not raise suspicion? So what would be the problem? There would be no trouble being open and discreet about it or being together but making their own content like they do now.
Deppy saw other Youtuber couples break up badly with all the fans knowing and probably did not want to make their relationship public in case that happened. Like arequian said they are also really private people and their relationship is for themselves and not for fans.
melon lord wrote:If it's "common knowledge" in the Youtube scene there's no way nobody has blabbed because they are decent people.
Charlieskies implied a lot that they are together. Somebody from the old forum said Musical Bethan also said they are together.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by anathema » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:55 am

spider wrote:
melon lord wrote:I mean, hide from whom? Their families would know, first of all. You couldn't keep that a secret from family. Fans? Fans would love that shit. They already consume it and make a business out of it. Did management force them to sell the "single nerdy relatable handsome guy" angle to appeal to female fans while still be interesting and ambiguous enough to not raise suspicion? So what would be the problem? There would be no trouble being open and discreet about it or being together but making their own content like they do now.
Deppy saw other Youtuber couples break up badly with all the fans knowing and probably did not want to make their relationship public in case that happened. Like arequian said they are also really private people and their relationship is for themselves and not for fans.
+1 Also, you have to remember this was 2009 and at that time the internet was not super SJW-ey and there wasn't nearly as much LGBT+ acceptance. (Just go look at the comments on Phil's older videos (or anyone's, for that matter). Gay slurs left and right :roll: :roll:).
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by peekatyou » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:50 am

spider wrote:
peekatyou wrote:I'm open to all theories but my personal one is that very early on they both were super into each other and with time things slowly - in a natural way - started to change, and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was Dan who was the first one to back off, and Phil just kinda went along with it with 'yeah, sure, whatever works for you works for me' attitude. Now, it's hard to remain friends after something like that has happened, let alone best friends, but from what we can see they somehow managed to do that very successfully.
This doesn't make sense to me that they 'backed off'. It sounds like they became less attached to each other and Phil just said he does not even leave the house without Dan. They only are more 'super into each other' after so many years. If phan was ever real it does not seem like it ever became not real.
spider thank you for your comment. By 'backed off' I meant they stopped being involved romantically with each other (I just worded it poorly, I'm sorry, I'll try to be more clear now) - it didn't have to mean they stopped caring for each other deeply and lost the connection they'd had. It's not like a friendship cannot be at the same level as a romantic relationship in terms of, I don't know, spiritual intimacy (sounded cheesy), is it?.. (I've just realized I hate being the one going 'they're just friends!!1' but since I've already started all that jazz I feel like there's no way back, so let's jump right into it.)
Phil said he never leaves the house without Dan. Are you referring to his last video? If you are, I mean he could pick the 'Dan!' answer just to make phans go 'awww,' I bet he knew they would like it. But if he said the truth, and he really never goes outside without Dan, - there are plenty good reasons for that. They have the same job, which means they have to leave the house at the same time in order to arrive at the same business meeting or something, I'm sure you know what I'm saying. And if we're talking about going outside as in socializing, again - it makes perfect sense to take your best friend with you if you're leaving for let's say a cup of coffee with your other friends, especially if you share those friends (which they apparently do.)

Also I thought I'd add one thing to the topic of them living together. It's not like I'm the first one to say that, obviously - if they were working in completely different fields and lived in one flat, that would make me raise my eyebrows, but since they literally have the same job - and it's not a regular one, they have to help each other make videos in the said flat - I feel there's absolutely nothing wrong with them living together until their intertwined careers are over or one of them decides to start a family of his own. Basically, I view their flat more as a workplace, I guess.
I'll wrap it up by saying I'm not committed to this theory and would absolutely love to be proven wrong.
But if I had to choose between 'phan's always been real' and 'it's never been real,' I'd choose the former - some of you say the 'lovers to friends' scenario is nearly impossible and I can see myself agreeing with that, but I don't think I would ever agree with 'they've been just friends from the beginning and the video was a prank!' Just no.
also reuploading my comment because I made a grammar mistake I couldn't stop cringing at. I'll be more careful next time

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