If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Our two favourite full time internet nerds who never go outside!
User avatar
sparkle
Ar·tic·u·late
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:12 pm
Pronouns: she/her
Location: UK

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sparkle » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:22 pm

Susanisnotafish wrote: I relate to your oscillation and your reasoning a lot. I also rely only on the Halloween gathering arm thing and voldy as Phan "proof" and often find it hard to discount their Phan denials. I won't be 100% sure they're in a romantic relationship unless they say so or have a child (even then, would they not confirm their relationship status? "Can't two bros raise a child without being shipped?")

As far as no one "catching them touching", I can believe that they just never do that in public. After all, they live together and can do whatever they want physically most of their lives. All closeted relationships (even straight ones such as extramarital affairs) are hidden. I personally (with no evidence as to why) feel that if they are a couple and they've told anyone it would only be Bryony and Wirrow and Phil's family. They've been friends with Bryony since they met, but she may not have known since then. Same with Phil's family. They may have only been told in the last few years. These people would be trustworthy and never betray them imo.

I think another reason Dan doesn't even want to expressly state his sexuality could be fear of what has happened to Evan Edinger since coming out as demisexual. I also wonder if not wanting to cause any more drama for Dan's younger brother could even play a part.

Also, what did they lie about about bubble bobble? I'll try doing a search to see if I can find out.

Hope this helps you to know you're not alone in your oscillation. We'll never really know until we know, and there's no prize for the ones who guessed right. The speculation and debate are quite enjoyable/frustrating/depressing depending on the day. I'm glad they are more than just a ship and are really great, caring, and entertaining individuals, so when I'm frustrated not knowing about Phan I can just focus on all those other things. They're my first and only OTP btw, so like a first anything, it's very near and dear to my heart and affects me quite deeply.
Its their denials which cast doubt on it for me. There has been no explicit confirmation, (theres been innuendo and assumption) but there has been explicit denial. Regardless of the context, there has been denial. Do I think that we can trust the denial? Not completely, but you can definitely see from his tone and actions that they were angry. I will never be sure of them being together until they confirm it. And tbf, they could get married and say it was for tax purposes and I still wouldn't be sure. A confirmation to me would either be a 'we are not together' or 'we are together', explicitly addressed. No innuendo, no joking, no pranks, no passive aggressive tumblr. (basically a voldy 2.0, that is what would convince me) Without the denials, if they had just let it be, I think this conversation would be very different.

True, I didn't necessarily think of affairs, but it IS a possibility that they are both hyper against PDA and therefore keep everything inside? And I also agree that the people that know the definitive truth (complete yes or complete no, which is something we as spectators do not know) will be that very small group of people. Who are obviously extremely trustworthy or simply don't care to be engaged in the speculation.

The point about Dans brother is good too, I completely forgot about that drama. I found out who he was by complete accident, I never intentionally searched out anything on him and yet I found photos of him on Tumblr by accident. If Dan announced he was with Phil, I sadly do think people would search out his brother as a 'back up' because 'he is like a mini-Dan'.

The Bubble Bobble thing was in their video. They presented it that Dan had never played it, but I think it was the week Dan spent at Phil's in December 2009, they got to level 100. If it was a game that went so much to Phil I highly doubt they wouldn't remember playing it together.

I'm glad I'm not alone. I was a pretty big purveyor of Frerard back in the day. But they actually kissed on stage. Regardless of D&P's relationship status, they have a solid relationship, and that is enough for me.
supplier of phandom tinfoil
there is a 99% chance that I am projecting onto Dan at any one time



User avatar
Katka
#relatable
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:22 pm
Pronouns: they/she

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Katka » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:02 pm

I just realised I never gave my reasons for being agnostic/not a shipper in this thread even though I was sure I did so here they are after all this time. Please note that these are based on my interpretations of their relationship just like every other opinion when it comes to phan and I really don’t mean to attack anyone. I might be dead wrong about all of these! (Also this is super long, sorry.)

- Their behaviour: As I’ve stated before I feel like interpreting their behaviour towards each other as couply is at least somewhat heteronormative. Like, can we really just decide something is couply (like the way they talk, look at each other, treat each other etc.) and therefore they must be a couple? I think that’s too easy. In my opinion Dan and Phil have never done anything that couldn’t be interpreted as something best friends do (yes, I’m including visiting Phil’s family together and going on holiday here) and I just don’t want to be that person who decides only couples get to do a certain thing and everyone who does it must therefore be a couple, especially if it’s super non-romantic, non-sexual things like going on holiday with someone’s family. I just think deciding a certain type of behaviour is couply isn’t fair and quite a bit heteronormative because not all couples are the same and neither are all friendships.

(This is also the reason I can’t deal with any of the queerbaiting and “they’re pretending to be together for the views!” accusations. They have never in the history of ever outright said they were together or even alluded to it after their channels blew up, they’ve just acted a certain way towards each other and some people interpret that as them being together or them queerbaiting. No pretending has happened here, only interpreting. "Male friends don’t do that so Dan and Phil must be pretending to be a couple for the views!” Nah, mate.)

- Dan said they aren’t together: Yes, I know this was in 2012 and Dan was rude and angry and lied a lot but this is the closest thing to an answer we have and disregarding it just because it doesn’t fit the phan story isn’t right or fair, I think. When asked about his sexuality, Dan was very evasive back then, never denied liking men or being bisexual and never said he was straight. I feel like if he and Phil really were together he’d handled the phan questions the same way. He would have said something evasive so he wouldn’t have to outright lie about a true thing. But he said they weren’t together quite graphically and I think that means something.

- The timelines are wrong: I’m not sure how well known this is but the timelines are wrong. The creators took old tweets and events out of context (like the “Phil kissed a boy” tweet for example) to use them as evidence when they weren’t. Some dates don’t even match up. I think the phan timeline was made with phan goggles super glued to the creators’ faces and it shows. I don't think they had malicious intentions or anything but I do think the timelines were made to proof phan was real so... confirmation bias, I guess. The timelines were the reason I nearly shipped them for a while in 2013 or 2014 or something but then I found out that a lot about the timelines didn't add up.

(This happens with anti-phans too though. The "I like vagina" tweet also gets taken out of context a lot to proof something but it's not that easy. It wasn't Dan randomly trying to seem straight, it was a reply to a tweet asking if he was gay and I always took it more like "I like women too" and not like "I only like women".)

- No confirmation: Yeah, this is basically my main reason. They have never in any way confirmed their relationship but they have denied it. So I've decided for myself to just take them at face value here. If they ever came out and confirmed their relationship, I'd be happy for them but as long as that doesn't happen, I'll believe they're not together since that's what they want us to believe. The thing is, relationships are something super personal and I don't really feel comfortable labeling something a relationship when it hasn't been confirmed. But that's just me, I'm not saying everyone has to feel this way of course!
sparkle wrote:How the HELL have they kept everything secret for this long if they are together? One slip, that is all it would take. Basically every time they are out of the house they would have to be actively NOT touching each other, and have been since 2009. That seems impossible.
And this of course. I just don't think it's possible to hide a relationship for seven years without slipping up, no matter how careful you are. This goes for their friends as well. Remember when Jim accidentally outed Zalfie or when Colleen Ballinger outed Joey Graceffa and his boyfriend before they were official? I think something like this would have most definitely happened to deppy too if it were real. (I also think with all the attention phan got and still gets some arsehole who knows the truth would have used it to their advantage by now and outed them for the views.)
(used to be Birdie)

ananas
crusty sponge
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by ananas » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:45 pm

Katka wrote:
- Dan said they aren’t together: Yes, I know this was in 2012 and Dan was rude and angry and lied a lot but this is the closest thing to an answer we have and disregarding it just because it doesn’t fit the phan story isn’t right or fair, I think. When asked about his sexuality, Dan was very evasive back then, never denied liking men or being bisexual and never said he was straight. I feel like if he and Phil really were together he’d handled the phan questions the same way. He would have said something evasive so he wouldn’t have to outright lie about a true thing. But he said they weren’t together quite graphically and I think that means something.


And this of course. I just don't think it's possible to hide a relationship for seven years without slipping up, no matter how careful you are. This goes for their friends as well. Remember when Jim accidentally outed Zalfie or when Colleen Ballinger outed Joey Graceffa and his boyfriend before they were official? I think something like this would have most definitely happened to deppy too if it were real. (I also think with all the attention phan got and still gets some arsehole who knows the truth would have used it to their advantage by now and outed them for the views.)
I agree with the whole post, but especially with these paragraphs.
In 2012 Dan answered the phan questions quite aggressively. Especially his answer where he compared Phil's private parts to one's own grandmother's. I would never say something like that about anyone I've been with. Then again, maybe they wrote it together or something, but it was unnecessarily rude in my opinion.
I haven't seen the video myself, but I have seen some anti proof analysis on it, and lean more to that side. (also why in the world would a popular youtuber upload such a private video on his channel if he never planned on releasing it, just send it by email or something )
This is the "why you don't ship phan thread, so I'm not really trying to convert anybody etc. these are just my thoughts, not looking for arguments!

iwishiwasacasual
glabella
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:01 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: england

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:37 am

hi, i just made an account so i thought i'd finally write out some of the stuff i've been dying to say over the past few weeks.

i've been a fan of dan's since like 2012, i was like super casual though (i refused to watch any phil videos for ages), and i was kind of one of those "i'm not like other girls" people so i seriously looked down on like the people who got like really into the fandom (and now i'm one of them, younger me is weeping).

i always thought shipping dnp was dumb as fuck, but harmless (i thought it was just like cherimon), but i've been slowly slipping further and further into the fandom since gamingmas because i started to check the tumblr tag, first to laugh at all of the shippers losing their shit and then just because.

over the last few months i've had nothing else to do so i started researching all of the shit, old tweets, timeline, vday. but despite all of this stuff i still don't think they're actually together. i think its because i looked down on the shippers for so long i just can't let myself become one (i know i shouldn't be ashamed of my interest even if they're cringy as fuck)

and if i'm completely honest the most sensible part of my brain thinks that they're just two straight guys who noticed their audience liked the idea of phan and started to play it up for views, but i still like to enjoy the fandom and the excitement and positivity surrounding the mystery so i just let myself forget that so i can awwww over cute moments.

although i realise i might be too willing to deny the idea of phan because the other day i saw a fake tweet that i thought was real (phil tweeting that he and dan are a power couple) and my mind immediately started thinking of heterosexual explanations so maybe i'm biased :/

User avatar
captainspacecoat
long-time wanker
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:31 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: Australia

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by captainspacecoat » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:23 pm

iwishiwasacasual wrote:
and if i'm completely honest the most sensible part of my brain thinks that they're just two straight guys who noticed their audience liked the idea of phan and started to play it up for views, but i still like to enjoy the fandom and the excitement and positivity surrounding the mystery so i just let myself forget that so i can awwww over cute moments.
I understand not thinking they're together (I personally think they are, but at the end of the day they've outright denied it so I get why people would think they're not), but I don't get how it's "sensible" to see them as straight, especially Dan. He has done his very best over the past year or so to be read as not-straight as far as I'm concerned. Like what more does he have to do other than outright make a coming out video/post (which he is under no obligation to do if he doesn't want to)? I think it's unfair to consider it sensible to view Dan and Phil as straight, when they seem to be making no effort to be perceived that way. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt when they make mentions of attraction to men, or when Dan discusses queer issues in his live shows, or when he explicitly stated in his RYC that he doesn't like labels and that that baffles society etc.

iwishiwasacasual
glabella
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:01 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: england

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:18 pm

captainspacecoat wrote:
iwishiwasacasual wrote:
and if i'm completely honest the most sensible part of my brain thinks that they're just two straight guys who noticed their audience liked the idea of phan and started to play it up for views, but i still like to enjoy the fandom and the excitement and positivity surrounding the mystery so i just let myself forget that so i can awwww over cute moments.
I understand not thinking they're together (I personally think they are, but at the end of the day they've outright denied it so I get why people would think they're not), but I don't get how it's "sensible" to see them as straight, especially Dan. He has done his very best over the past year or so to be read as not-straight as far as I'm concerned. Like what more does he have to do other than outright make a coming out video/post (which he is under no obligation to do if he doesn't want to)? I think it's unfair to consider it sensible to view Dan and Phil as straight, when they seem to be making no effort to be perceived that way. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt when they make mentions of attraction to men, or when Dan discusses queer issues in his live shows, or when he explicitly stated in his RYC that he doesn't like labels and that that baffles society etc.
sensible is a bad word to use, what i really meant was the miserable, cynical part of my brain that doesn't want anyone else to have fun and thinks the worst of everybody and unfortunately for some reason i value that part of my brain more than others.

gnostic
morning quiff
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:40 pm

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by gnostic » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:28 pm

iwishiwasacasual wrote:
captainspacecoat wrote:
iwishiwasacasual wrote:
and if i'm completely honest the most sensible part of my brain thinks that they're just two straight guys who noticed their audience liked the idea of phan and started to play it up for views, but i still like to enjoy the fandom and the excitement and positivity surrounding the mystery so i just let myself forget that so i can awwww over cute moments.
I understand not thinking they're together (I personally think they are, but at the end of the day they've outright denied it so I get why people would think they're not), but I don't get how it's "sensible" to see them as straight, especially Dan. He has done his very best over the past year or so to be read as not-straight as far as I'm concerned. Like what more does he have to do other than outright make a coming out video/post (which he is under no obligation to do if he doesn't want to)? I think it's unfair to consider it sensible to view Dan and Phil as straight, when they seem to be making no effort to be perceived that way. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt when they make mentions of attraction to men, or when Dan discusses queer issues in his live shows, or when he explicitly stated in his RYC that he doesn't like labels and that that baffles society etc.
sensible is a bad word to use, what i really meant was the miserable, cynical part of my brain that doesn't want anyone else to have fun and thinks the worst of everybody and unfortunately for some reason i value that part of my brain more than others.
It's a hurt prevention mechanism, really
Just here for the marketing skills

User avatar
Stakhanov
hobbit hair
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:27 pm
Pronouns: he / him

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:47 pm

iwishiwasacasual wrote:
captainspacecoat wrote:
iwishiwasacasual wrote:
and if i'm completely honest the most sensible part of my brain thinks that they're just two straight guys who noticed their audience liked the idea of phan and started to play it up for views, but i still like to enjoy the fandom and the excitement and positivity surrounding the mystery so i just let myself forget that so i can awwww over cute moments.
I understand not thinking they're together (I personally think they are, but at the end of the day they've outright denied it so I get why people would think they're not), but I don't get how it's "sensible" to see them as straight, especially Dan. He has done his very best over the past year or so to be read as not-straight as far as I'm concerned. Like what more does he have to do other than outright make a coming out video/post (which he is under no obligation to do if he doesn't want to)? I think it's unfair to consider it sensible to view Dan and Phil as straight, when they seem to be making no effort to be perceived that way. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt when they make mentions of attraction to men, or when Dan discusses queer issues in his live shows, or when he explicitly stated in his RYC that he doesn't like labels and that that baffles society etc.
sensible is a bad word to use, what i really meant was the miserable, cynical part of my brain that doesn't want anyone else to have fun and thinks the worst of everybody and unfortunately for some reason i value that part of my brain more than others.
I can't speak for you but what made me doubt for a long time is not cynicism (i feel like the term i misapplied here) but just rational thinking accompanied with a skeptical attitude. My position never was that Dan or Phil were definitely straight, but that lacking a clear claim by them the burden for proof and evidence lied with those that claimed they were gay.
A clarification here: i always accepted Phil was bi because there was a lot less contradiction in his statements (*input classical evidence for PHil's bisexuality here. I'm sorry can't find the best stuff, i eh fact-checked in the group chat and he said he was bi on his old myspace ). Phil isn't one to talk about his sexuality much (though recently... he's made a lot of male attaction comments too) so i highly value the few things he does say about it. He is the final authority on it anyway, he should choose whatever label he wants, or not.
Same goes for Dan, and he did say he was bisexual on formspring very early into his rise to prominence on social media, but he did also say not to take his own formspring to serious. And denied he was gay multiple times. I know, that still leaves room for him being bisexual but it's just that most of the times, when men colloquially say they are not gay.. they implicitly also mean to say they are not bisexual. Most of the times though, i know that is something of a hetero normative interpretation, it's just one that is accurate for the friends and culture i live in 'in real life'.

Apart from their own statements there's a lot to interpret from other things they say and do. They certainly are not the easiest act to follow. It doesn't help that most of what they say almost always reaches us in a context that is rife with innuendo, humor and subject to their own redaction. It's also easy to get lost in one's own confirmation bias.
That's said, it's fair to say that they both have often made statements, albeit almost always jokingly, that would suggest they supportive or interested themselves in homosexual romance.
When I started watching them late 2015 i had to form my opinion on the basis of a very complete history. Despite the very dedicated work of many a (ph)fan the information we have sucks It's always a tweet here, interpreting a half sentence or innuendo there ... it's reading the tea leaves basically. What has changed the last couple or so years in my opinion, is that their references of sexuality has become more frequent, more open .. most of all there's a whole lot of little mentions now where i think it's less obvious to attribute the statement as a joke. In some of the 'gay' references they have been making as of late it's hard to see the comedic purpose. They seem more aimed at expressing a genuine preference. It's hard to think of an example at the top of my head but i feel that it's been part of a slow evolution towards a bit more of openness about their sexuality. Also, specifically thinking about the gay stuff Dan says i have to say as a gay man myself he either is feeling exactly the same emotion or me or he's scarily good as a straight guy at thinking the exact same (and quite gay) thoughts as me

So yes, for a good while now I've decided that both of them are very likely at least bisexual. I don't think it's necessarily 'evident' though if you're new. I've changed my mind only over time and only because I follow them closely, and because there's a lot of interest about it in the communtiy so nothing get's lost :D
I have to point out that i do think there's a possibility that they are (mostly) straight. It could simply be that they are just very good at pretending to have a sexual interest in males. I know some reject this because they think that's wrong, or queerbaiting and that Dan and Phil simply aren't that way. I think that's a bad reason to conclude something about their sexuality. Their real sexuality is not connected with their moral character as people.
The lord knoweth that a lot of straight guys actually, in my experience, can be quite damn flirty, joke and bant like they are the biggest queens in town yet in reality not really have a romantic or real sexual interest at all in the same sex. Personally I don't think that is wrong. I think human sexuality is complex anyway and you can flirt around with guys without it necessarily having to mean much. It can just be kind of a harrowing situation if you're a gay guy yourself, because for you the feelings expressed might very real indeed
I'm not looking for another as I wander in my time
Walk me to the corner, our steps will always rhyme
You know my love goes with you as your love stays with me
It's just the way it changes like the shoreline and the sea

User avatar
alittledizzy
actual demon phannie
actual demon phannie
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:09 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by alittledizzy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Stakhanov wrote:I have to point out that i do think there's a possibility that they are (mostly) straight. It could simply be that they are just very good at pretending to have a sexual interest in males. I know some reject this because they think that's wrong, or queerbaiting and that Dan and Phil simply aren't that way. I think that's a bad reason to conclude something about their sexuality. Their real sexuality is not connected with their moral character as people.
I think you misunderstand why people object to that; it's not that their sexuality is connected to their moral character as people, it's that their behavior toward their audience in regard to sexuality is connected with their moral character as people.

If they were "pretending to have a sexual interest in males" because that's what their audience wanted when in reality they were straight, that is the actual, literal definition of queerbaiting. And queerbaiting is a moral issue.

(And if they were straight guys and the joking/flirting were genuine but only joking, then they have literally no excuse to not just say they're straight when faced with an audience assuming at this point almost universally that they are not straight.)

ananas
crusty sponge
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by ananas » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:40 pm

Stakhanov wrote:
iwishiwasacasual wrote:
captainspacecoat wrote:
iwishiwasacasual wrote:
and if i'm completely honest the most sensible part of my brain thinks that they're just two straight guys who noticed their audience liked the idea of phan and started to play it up for views, but i still like to enjoy the fandom and the excitement and positivity surrounding the mystery so i just let myself forget that so i can awwww over cute moments.
I understand not thinking they're together (I personally think they are, but at the end of the day they've outright denied it so I get why people would think they're not), but I don't get how it's "sensible" to see them as straight, especially Dan. He has done his very best over the past year or so to be read as not-straight as far as I'm concerned. Like what more does he have to do other than outright make a coming out video/post (which he is under no obligation to do if he doesn't want to)? I think it's unfair to consider it sensible to view Dan and Phil as straight, when they seem to be making no effort to be perceived that way. Why not give them the benefit of the doubt when they make mentions of attraction to men, or when Dan discusses queer issues in his live shows, or when he explicitly stated in his RYC that he doesn't like labels and that that baffles society etc.
sensible is a bad word to use, what i really meant was the miserable, cynical part of my brain that doesn't want anyone else to have fun and thinks the worst of everybody and unfortunately for some reason i value that part of my brain more than others.
I can't speak for you but what made me doubt for a long time is not cynicism (i feel like the term i misapplied here) but just rational thinking accompanied with a skeptical attitude. My position never was that Dan or Phil were definitely straight, but that lacking a clear claim by them the burden for proof and evidence lied with those that claimed they were gay.
A clarification here: i always accepted Phil was bi because there was a lot less contradiction in his statements (*input classical evidence for PHil's bisexuality here. I'm sorry can't find the best stuff, i eh fact-checked in the group chat and he said he was bi on his old myspace ). Phil isn't one to talk about his sexuality much (though recently... he's made a lot of male attaction comments too) so i highly value the few things he does say about it. He is the final authority on it anyway, he should choose whatever label he wants, or not.
Same goes for Dan, and he did say he was bisexual on formspring very early into his rise to prominence on social media, but he did also say not to take his own formspring to serious. And denied he was gay multiple times. I know, that still leaves room for him being bisexual but it's just that most of the times, when men colloquially say they are not gay.. they implicitly also mean to say they are not bisexual. Most of the times though, i know that is something of a hetero normative interpretation, it's just one that is accurate for the friends and culture i live in 'in real life'.

Apart from their own statements there's a lot to interpret from other things they say and do. They certainly are not the easiest act to follow. It doesn't help that most of what they say almost always reaches us in a context that is rife with innuendo, humor and subject to their own redaction. It's also easy to get lost in one's own confirmation bias.
That's said, it's fair to say that they both have often made statements, albeit almost always jokingly, that would suggest they supportive or interested themselves in homosexual romance.
When I started watching them late 2015 i had to form my opinion on the basis of a very complete history. Despite the very dedicated work of many a (ph)fan the information we have sucks It's always a tweet here, interpreting a half sentence or innuendo there ... it's reading the tea leaves basically. What has changed the last couple or so years in my opinion, is that their references of sexuality has become more frequent, more open .. most of all there's a whole lot of little mentions now where i think it's less obvious to attribute the statement as a joke. In some of the 'gay' references they have been making as of late it's hard to see the comedic purpose. They seem more aimed at expressing a genuine preference. It's hard to think of an example at the top of my head but i feel that it's been part of a slow evolution towards a bit more of openness about their sexuality. Also, specifically thinking about the gay stuff Dan says i have to say as a gay man myself he either is feeling exactly the same emotion or me or he's scarily good as a straight guy at thinking the exact same (and quite gay) thoughts as me

So yes, for a good while now I've decided that both of them are very likely at least bisexual. I don't think it's necessarily 'evident' though if you're new. I've changed my mind only over time and only because I follow them closely, and because there's a lot of interest about it in the communtiy so nothing get's lost :D
I have to point out that i do think there's a possibility that they are (mostly) straight. It could simply be that they are just very good at pretending to have a sexual interest in males. I know some reject this because they think that's wrong, or queerbaiting and that Dan and Phil simply aren't that way. I think that's a bad reason to conclude something about their sexuality. Their real sexuality is not connected with their moral character as people.
The lord knoweth that a lot of straight guys actually, in my experience, can be quite damn flirty, joke and bant like they are the biggest queens in town yet in reality not really have a romantic or real sexual interest at all in the same sex. Personally I don't think that is wrong. I think human sexuality is complex anyway and you can flirt around with guys without it necessarily having to mean much. It can just be kind of a harrowing situation if you're a gay guy yourself, because for you the feelings expressed might very real indeed
In response to Stakhanov: Thank you for the post! It's very interesting to see the point of view of a gay guy :thumb: This community seems to have a lot of girls/women of which a lot of them are straight, it's nice to hear a different perspective.

User avatar
Stakhanov
hobbit hair
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:27 pm
Pronouns: he / him

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:43 am

alittledizzy wrote:
Stakhanov wrote:I have to point out that i do think there's a possibility that they are (mostly) straight. It could simply be that they are just very good at pretending to have a sexual interest in males. I know some reject this because they think that's wrong, or queerbaiting and that Dan and Phil simply aren't that way. I think that's a bad reason to conclude something about their sexuality. Their real sexuality is not connected with their moral character as people.
I think you misunderstand why people object to that; it's not that their sexuality is connected to their moral character as people, it's that their behavior toward their audience in regard to sexuality is connected with their moral character as people.

If they were "pretending to have a sexual interest in males" because that's what their audience wanted when in reality they were straight, that is the actual, literal definition of queerbaiting. And queerbaiting is a moral issue.

(And if they were straight guys and the joking/flirting were genuine but only joking, then they have literally no excuse to not just say they're straight when faced with an audience assuming at this point almost universally that they are not straight.)
I don't think I misunderstand the objection. I just don't think everybody makes as clear a distinction as you do. My impression is that some do reject the possibility it's all an act on emotional grounds because that behavior would conflict with how they see Dan and Phil as people.
Especially with younger fans (I'm thinking early teens here) I feel like they often throw different things into one bag. Some view it as a binary issue where D&P either are gay or queerbaiting.
I think there is a lot of grey area, both in the concept of what really constitutes queerbaiting and how unethical it is.
I don't want to repeat the whole queerbaiting discussion but imo, even if it turns out Dan and/or Phil is straight as an arrow it's still doesn't follow they were queerbaiting. And I don't really view lying or even consciously exploiting your sexuality for profit as that qualitatively different from other forms of dishonesty or commercial exploitation.

@ananas
Well thanks it's not that I possess any more information than straight white girls would. But different perspectives can always help to prevent group think.
I have to say that I'm struck by just how many non-straight women are on this forum if you compare it with general population averages, but yea the men seem to be almost non-existent on here :(
Makes me a bit sad because it enforces my idea that your average straight male still very much wouldn't want to be involved involved in anything like being a fan of
Though it can also (largely) just reflect the genuinely different preferences between men and women. You sort of have to be extremely interested in two guys and their (homo-erotic) interactions to post a lot on this forum, and i guess that's probably not something you will be when you're an average guy.
I'm not looking for another as I wander in my time
Walk me to the corner, our steps will always rhyme
You know my love goes with you as your love stays with me
It's just the way it changes like the shoreline and the sea

User avatar
goingbackto505
spork
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by goingbackto505 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:12 pm

I've been debating about whether I should make a post on here or not for some time, since, from what I've gathered, almost everyone on this site (who am I kidding, it seems like everyone and their mother ships them) ships and many firmly believe they're together and can do no wrong. I wouldn't want to bring negativity, but since this thread exists, why not lol. I'm sorry in advance, it's going to be a looooooong and unorganized post/ramblings, everybody has already mentioned all of that before, but anyways..
this is just me expressing my opinion, so personally, even though I would be beyond happy if Dan and Phil were together, I find shipping real people creepy and invasive in general, so that's probably the main reason why I'm not a 'phannie'. especially considering the fact that they have never officially said they're a thing and especially because it's known how uncomfortable they're about discussing their personal lives publicly. I just want to respect their wishes, I guess. many people dismiss all of Dan's 2012 rants, answers and denials, but when I read these particular posts, I simply couldn't (and still can't) imagine that that was him lying. it seemed so genuine to me, like he really, really was holding those thoughts inside and then finally let them out:
Image
Image
obviously, all of you have already seen those rants of his a bazillion times, and all those rants are generally disregarded as Dan's "no homo Howell"/"over-dramatic" period, but all I'm getting from them is that Dan was 1000000% done and that whole situation was really stressing him and Phil out. I don't think it was just because of the voldy video being leaked everywhere, and I don't think it's because people were asking him if he's gay or not, which no doubt was frustrating for him as well. imo what was particularly pissing him off is that people collectively assumed/decided that he and Phil were/are in an actual relationship together, which resulted in them "spreading lies and rumors behind his back". I think when he started to get a larger fanbase, he began to want people to take him and his content seriously, and what he actually got was the exact opposite of that. the majority of his and Phil's fans, even to this day, are in it for the shipping and because they find them (typically Dan) attractive, and maybe are sort of okay with it now that they're rich af and have this rare privilege where they can literally not upload for weeks/months and still get a ton of views, even if the actual long awaited videos are mediocre at best. the abomination known as my horse prince, Dan's ISG vids and his weak attempts at trying to be this #relatable #meme #inevergooutsidelol #whatisanexercise persona for 12 year olds, or Phil, despite being a genuinely creative person, simply being lazy and uncreative with his video ideas and just posting something lame, like sponsored videos, forced chatter, or letting Dan curl his hair.. purely so that the shippers would cream themselves over how domestic™ they are being. still, the phans will be happy with almost everything, as long as their otp look at each other, or breathe the same air, really. and Dan and Phil know that now, so they're pretty much secure and think they can allow themselves to be lazy and live in "blissful ignorance".
what bothers me and puts me off the most when it comes to believing that phan is real and the concept of shipping them, is that Dan (and in a way Phil) was SO against people assuming they're together or assuming their sexualities, he denied phan left and right and was clearly uncomfortable with it all, and then they write two books, go on tours and suddenly they seem unbothered and even encourage the shippers with the obvious fanservice. Dan said he was lying and attention-seeking in 2009/10, and I personally can see how it might be true, since he was young, naive, in a way dumb and possibly just going with the trend/crowd. I really don't want to think DnP would stoop so low, but I have this nagging feeling that at this point they sold out and are just giving the fans what they want again and are exploiting the fact that people ship them for their monetary gain. because it's hard for me to imagine how Dan could so easily go from his 2012 statements to what we have now. they never address anything anymore and it bothers me, as well as seems shady. like, there is a large group of 10-15 year olds who basically dehumanize, fetishize and sexualize everything DnP do or say right in the comment sections of their videos, those same 10 year olds make everything about "phan proof", have the "top or bottom" arguments, and just say nothing. I really don't want that to be true, but lately their content just screams "ship/queerbaiting" to me. Dan once said he "doesn't swing that way":
catrific called him one of her only "straight guy friends", to quote pewdiepie:"Why is everything Dan and Phil, everyone wants to see them fuck when it's never gonna happen", voldy seeming scripted and too good to be true to me.. that and when I was watching a video of them together for the first time, all I got was that they're two best friends and it all seemed very platonic to me, are the main reasons why I'm not a shipper and don't believe they're together. it's possible, though, that they had something brief in 2009/10, like Dan was experimenting with Phil, or something like that, and now they're just bffs. and the fact that they haven't been spotted on dates/with some other women/men yet is not a valid argument for me tbh, they could just have casual sex and most of the places they visit are expensive and their tweenage fangirls wouldn't be able to stalk them there.

this is just one possible way for me to express my thoughts RE: phan, sometimes I see their 2009/10 tweets and it makes me smile because of how cute it all was and sometimes I kind of let myself believe they're a couple. but ultimately, it's none of my business either way, I watch them because I adore their friendship and because they're really funny together. I just wish they would address the creepiness of the shippers, and if they're not queer (and I truly hope they're queer, bc otherwise it would be queerbaiting by default, which would mean I can't support them anymore), then they should just say so. alternatively, if they are in a secret relationship with each other/are bisexual, pansexual or whatever else, then obviously they don't have to tell the internet about it, it'd just be a matter of privacy. that's basically it I guess
Image

iwishiwasacasual
glabella
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:01 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: england

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:57 pm

goingbackto505 wrote:I've been debating about whether I should make a post on here or not for some time, since, from what I've gathered, almost everyone on this site (who am I kidding, it seems like everyone and their mother ships them) ships and many firmly believe they're together and can do no wrong. I wouldn't want to bring negativity, but since this thread exists, why not lol. I'm sorry in advance, it's going to be a looooooong and unorganized post/ramblings, everybody has already mentioned all of that before, but anyways..
this is just me expressing my opinion, so personally, even though I would be beyond happy if Dan and Phil were together, I find shipping real people creepy and invasive in general, so that's probably the main reason why I'm not a 'phannie'. especially considering the fact that they have never officially said they're a thing and especially because it's known how uncomfortable they're about discussing their personal lives publicly. I just want to respect their wishes, I guess. many people dismiss all of Dan's 2012 rants, answers and denials, but when I read these particular posts, I simply couldn't (and still can't) imagine that that was him lying. it seemed so genuine to me, like he really, really was holding those thoughts inside and then finally let them out:
Image
Image
obviously, all of you have already seen those rants of his a bazillion times, and all those rants are generally disregarded as Dan's "no homo Howell"/"over-dramatic" period, but all I'm getting from them is that Dan was 1000000% done and that whole situation was really stressing him and Phil out. I don't think it was just because of the voldy video being leaked everywhere, and I don't think it's because people were asking him if he's gay or not, which no doubt was frustrating for him as well. imo what was particularly pissing him off is that people collectively assumed/decided that he and Phil were/are in an actual relationship together, which resulted in them "spreading lies and rumors behind his back". I think when he started to get a larger fanbase, he began to want people to take him and his content seriously, and what he actually got was the exact opposite of that. the majority of his and Phil's fans, even to this day, are in it for the shipping and because they find them (typically Dan) attractive, and maybe are sort of okay with it now that they're rich af and have this rare privilege where they can literally not upload for weeks/months and still get a ton of views, even if the actual long awaited videos are mediocre at best. the abomination known as my horse prince, Dan's ISG vids and his weak attempts at trying to be this #relatable #meme #inevergooutsidelol #whatisanexercise persona for 12 year olds, or Phil, despite being a genuinely creative person, simply being lazy and uncreative with his video ideas and just posting something lame, like sponsored videos, forced chatter, or letting Dan curl his hair.. purely so that the shippers would cream themselves over how domestic™ they are being. still, the phans will be happy with almost everything, as long as their otp look at each other, or breathe the same air, really. and Dan and Phil know that now, so they're pretty much secure and think they can allow themselves to be lazy and live in "blissful ignorance".
what bothers me and puts me off the most when it comes to believing that phan is real and the concept of shipping them, is that Dan (and in a way Phil) was SO against people assuming they're together or assuming their sexualities, he denied phan left and right and was clearly uncomfortable with it all, and then they write two books, go on tours and suddenly they seem unbothered and even encourage the shippers with the obvious fanservice. Dan said he was lying and attention-seeking in 2009/10, and I personally can see how it might be true, since he was young, naive, in a way dumb and possibly just going with the trend/crowd. I really don't want to think DnP would stoop so low, but I have this nagging feeling that at this point they sold out and are just giving the fans what they want again and are exploiting the fact that people ship them for their monetary gain. because it's hard for me to imagine how Dan could so easily go from his 2012 statements to what we have now. they never address anything anymore and it bothers me, as well as seems shady. like, there is a large group of 10-15 year olds who basically dehumanize, fetishize and sexualize everything DnP do or say right in the comment sections of their videos, those same 10 year olds make everything about "phan proof", have the "top or bottom" arguments, and just say nothing. I really don't want that to be true, but lately their content just screams "ship/queerbaiting" to me. Dan once said he "doesn't swing that way":
catrific called him one of her only "straight guy friends", to quote pewdiepie:"Why is everything Dan and Phil, everyone wants to see them fuck when it's never gonna happen", voldy seeming scripted and too good to be true to me.. that and when I was watching a video of them together for the first time, all I got was that they're two best friends and it all seemed very platonic to me, are the main reasons why I'm not a shipper and don't believe they're together. it's possible, though, that they had something brief in 2009/10, like Dan was experimenting with Phil, or something like that, and now they're just bffs. and the fact that they haven't been spotted on dates/with some other women/men yet is not a valid argument for me tbh, they could just have casual sex and most of the places they visit are expensive and their tweenage fangirls wouldn't be able to stalk them there.

this is just one possible way for me to express my thoughts RE: phan, sometimes I see their 2009/10 tweets and it makes me smile because of how cute it all was and sometimes I kind of let myself believe they're a couple. but ultimately, it's none of my business either way, I watch them because I adore their friendship and because they're really funny together. I just wish they would address the creepiness of the shippers, and if they're not queer (and I truly hope they're queer, bc otherwise it would be queerbaiting by default, which would mean I can't support them anymore), then they should just say so. alternatively, if they are in a secret relationship with each other/are bisexual, pansexual or whatever else, then obviously they don't have to tell the internet about it, it'd just be a matter of privacy. that's basically it I guess
i was going to come up with a really articulate thought out response to the queerbaiting discussion but fuck it that's far too much effort, you get this word vomit instead.

one of the most irritating things surrounding dnp is the attitude to the ‘creepy fans’ i’m not trying to attack you or anyone else who thinks like this because i used to do it too (plus some of the fans are totally creepy )but i’m sick of people pushing the idea that poor, defenceless dan and phil are at the mercy of the evil shippers. especially because there's always an undercurrent of sexism in these arguments because people just love to shit on young girls who dare to love and be passionate about things

like you said yourself dnp are rich, and a lot of that money is coming from those shippers, it’s not dan’s fave pretentious male fans that are buying merch and copies of their books, it’s the shippers and maybe me that one time. don’t feel bad about shipping people them because they make a fuck load off of ‘phan’ and they know it. that’s why they probably won’t ever address it because they wouldn’t want to alienate those fans.

(none of this means to say that a lot of the fans behaviours aren’t problematic, the fetishisation of gay/bi men is a serious problem within all fandoms and that needs to be acknowledged and obviously like the serious stuff like stalking is bad but all of this has been said 100 times)

regardless of their relationship status they probably play up phan for views because that’s what the most engaged parts of their audience are there for, if they are actually together, they’ve found a gold mine. good for them. but if they’re not and they are just two straight guys profiting off a gay relationship by manipulating a group of largely young queer girls into thinking that they themselves are queer, that’s just kind of awful. (that’s probably not the case even if they are straight because unless they are actual super villains their actions would probably be much less deliberate, it would be much more likely that they just kind of slip into ‘acting gay') (i hate the way i phrased that)

as for all of the ‘low effort content’ (hair curling, isg,) eh i just can’t bring myself to give a shit, even if i don’t find a video personally entertaining someone else probably does so???. And plus i feel like the more people talk about ‘quality’ content the closer i feel like they’re getting to jack howard levels of pretentiousness and i just zone out.

i'm not here to convince you 'phan is real' or anything because i don't really think it is eithe, i swing between basically what you think and ' awww they're so cute together'

i’m so sorry if this came out really aggressive, like is said i actually agree with most of what you said, in fact when i first started reading what you wrote i thought me from a few weeks ago had gotten idb. i've only been posting for a few days ago so i know how nerve wracking it can be to put your thoughts out there and you expressed your opinions really well. jesus christ i sound really condescending

User avatar
goingbackto505
spork
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by goingbackto505 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:52 pm

iwishiwasacasual wrote: one of the most irritating things surrounding dnp is the attitude to the ‘creepy fans’ i’m not trying to attack you or anyone else who thinks like this because i used to do it too (plus some of the fans are totally creepy )but i’m sick of people pushing the idea that poor, defenceless dan and phil are at the mercy of the evil shippers. especially because there's always an undercurrent of sexism in these arguments because people just love to shit on young girls who dare to love and be passionate about things

like you said yourself dnp are rich, and a lot of that money is coming from those shippers, it’s not dan’s fave pretentious male fans that are buying merch and copies of their books, it’s the shippers and maybe me that one time. don’t feel bad about shipping people them because they make a fuck load off of ‘phan’ and they know it. that’s why they probably won’t ever address it because they wouldn’t want to alienate those fans.
I totally get what you mean and I agree with you in a lot of ways, it's just, when I read Dan's opinions on it all I can't help but feel bad for them, even though it's definitely stupid of me lol. I simply don't like how fetishized they are, to the point where so many phan shippers don't even view them as humans/content creators at all, they're just two fictional characters from the phanfic. it's annoying, and yes, I personally find it creepy, regardless of age or gender. but considering the fact that Phil is 30 and Dan is 26, and their fanbase mostly consists of young people, it's kind of shitty of them to condone those things. I was mainly writing from 2012 Dan's POV, if that even makes sense. he used to be so creeped out\against people invading their privacy like that, and now, like i've said before, he capitalizes off of that. it's mostly Dan and Phil's fault that it's got to this point, i realize that, but I still somehow feel bad for them because they're more than what the majority of their fans take them for. before I started watching their videos, I didn't even want to check out their channels, just because of how obnoxiously entitled the phandom seems to act everywhere, and because of the way they talk about DnP. not to mention the cringe factor. but turns out they're actually funny youtubers and genuinely nice guys (or so it seems) and they actually can make good content. yet I have never seen youtubers being sexualized, or shipped like that before, so it still kind of baffles me. they're the larry of youtube. I'm also against assuming other people's sexualities and the whole fetishization of the LGBTQ+ community in general, and that's what annoys me the most about phan shippers. like you yourself said:
(none of this means to say that a lot of the fans behaviours aren’t problematic, the fetishisation of gay/bi men is a serious problem within all fandoms and that needs to be acknowledged and obviously like the serious stuff like stalking is bad but all of this has been said 100 times)
that's what I wish DnP would address. but obviously they never will, even though once during his younow broadcast (I suppose it was fairly recently? idk) Dan dared say that he's not just "a ken doll for you to objectify and ship and wish I lived the life you wanted". I mean, if it bothers him, maybe he should address it properly, but it really seems like they sold out and will stay mute.
regardless of their relationship status they probably play up phan for views because that’s what the most engaged parts of their audience are there for, if they are actually together, they’ve found a gold mine. good for them. but if they’re not and they are just two straight guys profiting off a gay relationship by manipulating a group of largely young queer girls into thinking that they themselves are queer, that’s just kind of awful. (that’s probably not the case even if they are straight because unless they are actual super villains their actions would probably be much less deliberate, it would be much more likely that they just kind of slip into ‘acting gay') (i hate the way i phrased that)
exactly, and that would be a huge deal breaker for me. even though, yes, it's hard for me to imagine that they're some evil manipulators, and I don't want to think of them like that, but that's still sort of possible, because those two never address absolutely anything and I can't take their numerous declarations of attraction towards anime characters and pop singers seriously anymore (again, regardless of gender), because god knows if it's sarcasm, jokes, fanservice or them being genuine. anyway, we have pretty much the same opinions on this topic
as for all of the ‘low effort content’ (hair curling, isg,) eh i just can’t bring myself to give a shit, even if i don’t find a video personally entertaining someone else probably does so???. And plus i feel like the more people talk about ‘quality’ content the closer i feel like they’re getting to jack howard levels of pretentiousness and i just zone out.
lol I didn't mean to sound pretentious, but now that I re-read that part I understand how it may sound. it's just, Dan always makes those "quality content" jokes whenever they make a /low quality video/, and given the fact that they upload almost as frequently as TomSka, and PJ uploads every week.. but whatever, they know they can do better than that, and they also know they don't have to. the phandom would watch them watch paint dry. dunno for how long they'll manage to keep casual viewers entertained, though

btw, I didn't think you sounded condescending or aggressive, at all, don't worry! :) I totally get where you're coming from, + I also agree with many of the things you said. I'm sure with time the way I view will change, I'm new to the phandom and I don't consider myself a part of the phandom, but I still felt the need to make that post, maybe because I've read too many youtube comments from phan shippers in the past few months
Image

User avatar
sparkle
Ar·tic·u·late
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:12 pm
Pronouns: she/her
Location: UK

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sparkle » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:18 am

In regards to the above, I wonder if they ever regret handling the situation the way they did? Lets just say the video hadn't been leaked in 2011/12 and instead had been leaked today. I wonder what they'd do differently. If they'd never addressed it (and I can see why Dan did, it was hard enough having people speculate on my sexuality in high school, and I only had maximum 1,000 people who could have cared, Dan had maximum 500 times that amount of people and rapidly rising). I wonder if their relationship would have been less fetishised, and I wonder how different their interactions would be? I always want to see what they cut from their content because I'm so damn curious.

I didn't realise how much I would like them to talk openly about the impact shipping has had on their relationship until literally now. With my sociology hat on, I'm curious as to what that does to you. Even more if they are just friends, as I'm curious as to how that affects the prospects of relationships. Can you imagine hiding a relationship because people you don't even know will lose their collective shit because their ship has sunk??

Also, I have half-formed thoughts about the Emma Blackery drama being fan anti-proof but I'm tired so I can't articulate myself properly. Basically, if she'd have known something when she was being a twat to them on twitter, would she not have said? Or are YouTubers bound by NDAs/something similar.
supplier of phandom tinfoil
there is a 99% chance that I am projecting onto Dan at any one time

User avatar
sapienveneficus
drama llama
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 3:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sapienveneficus » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:00 am

sparkle wrote: Also, I have half-formed thoughts about the Emma Blackery drama being fan anti-proof but I'm tired so I can't articulate myself properly. Basically, if she'd have known something when she was being a twat to them on twitter, would she not have said? Or are YouTubers bound by NDAs/something similar.
I'm personally in the shipping camp, but I do often wonder about this. Not the situation with Emma specifically, but with the YouTube community in general. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that fans like myself are correct in our assumption that Dan and Phil are together and have been for quite some time. It would stand to reason that several members of the YouTube community would be aware of this fact. So, how is it that no one has ever let this secret slip?

Alternatively, if they're not together, and are playing up their flirting and banter for the camera, why has no one in the community ever called them out? I am under no illusions about the YouTube community. It's not made up of all care bears and girl scouts (the two most wholesome groups I could think of). YouTubers are people, and people get jealous. Dan and Phil are ridiculously successful, and it's true that they owe a good deal of that success to their shipper community. So why has no one ever "exposed them?"

I think this silence from the YouTube community could be used equally to make a case by both camps (shippers and non shippers). If YouTube creators are required to sign NDAs they could just as easily be forbidden from disclosing details of a real relationship as they could from disclosing details of a fabricated one.

It's interesting to ponder. The secrets of YouTube.
"Someone, somewhere is into that." Daniel Howell

iwishiwasacasual
glabella
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:01 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: england

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:16 am

sapienveneficus wrote:
sparkle wrote: Also, I have half-formed thoughts about the Emma Blackery drama being fan anti-proof but I'm tired so I can't articulate myself properly. Basically, if she'd have known something when she was being a twat to them on twitter, would she not have said? Or are YouTubers bound by NDAs/something similar.
I'm personally in the shipping camp, but I do often wonder about this. Not the situation with Emma specifically, but with the YouTube community in general. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that fans like myself are correct in our assumption that Dan and Phil are together and have been for quite some time. It would stand to reason that several members of the YouTube community would be aware of this fact. So, how is it that no one has ever let this secret slip?

Alternatively, if they're not together, and are playing up their flirting and banter for the camera, why has no one in the community ever called them out? I am under no illusions about the YouTube community. It's not made up of all care bears and girl scouts (the two most wholesome groups I could think of). YouTubers are people, and people get jealous. Dan and Phil are ridiculously successful, and it's true that they owe a good deal of that success to their shipper community. So why has no one ever "exposed them?"

I think this silence from the YouTube community could be used equally to make a case by both camps (shippers and non shippers). If YouTube creators are required to sign NDAs they could just as easily be forbidden from disclosing details of a real relationship as they could from disclosing details of a fabricated one.

It's interesting to ponder. The secrets of YouTube.
i think people tend to assume other youtubers know but why would they? dnp aren't really that close with many other youtubers, certainly not emma blackery (i'm wildly uneducated on their relationships with other youtubers thought so maybe i should just shut up). i always personally assumed that if they were actually together hardly any other youtubers knew and they all just assumed that dnp merely act couple-y for views and considering how lots of them tend to look down on dnp fans they probably just assume anyone who thinks phan is real is just some dumbass 13 year old.
goingbackto505 wrote:lol I didn't mean to sound pretentious, but now that I re-read that part I understand how it may sound
i wasn't calling you pretentious, i just refuse to miss a chance to announce my disdain for jack howard and honestly i'm deeply sorry for suggesting that something you said was in anyway similar to his shitty opinions. that is literally the worst insult.

User avatar
captainspacecoat
long-time wanker
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:31 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: Australia

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by captainspacecoat » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:54 am

sparkle wrote:
Also, I have half-formed thoughts about the Emma Blackery drama being fan anti-proof but I'm tired so I can't articulate myself properly. Basically, if she'd have known something when she was being a twat to them on twitter, would she not have said? Or are YouTubers bound by NDAs/something similar.
I think most people probably just know that the fall-out from doing that - either exposing dnp as being in a relationship or presenting concrete evidence that they are not in a relationship (e.g. evidence of other partners) - would be too huge. Dan and Phil have such a loyal, obsessive following and the backlash another youtuber would receive from doing that would be massive and unavoidable.

With Emma, I feel like she may not have known anything for sure - she was never close enough to them to have been told in person, so she could only have known through the grapevine. Given that she was friends with Charlie, I feel that it's likely he may have told her whatever he knew, but were they ever close enough for her to fully trust him? I'd also argue that that whole infamous twitter exchange between Charlie and Dan, which Emma chimed in on if I remember correctly, was the closest she ever came to publicly inferring dnp are together. She clearly aligned herself with Charlie, who threatened to reveal """"something""" about Dan that he didn't want public (whether that Dan's not straight, or in a relationship with Phil, or just an empty threat).

goingbackto505 I think there's a big difference between fetishising/sexualising dnp in such a way that invades their privacy and effectively dehumanises them, and simply consuming the aspects and examples of their relationship that they provide us with, acknowledging their chemistry and history that they have openly shared with us, and coming to the conclusion that based on these interactions over the past almost 8 years they may be in a relationship of some sort.

Forcing Dan and Phil to see erotic fanart/fanfic involving them, asking them and their family members whether they're together, encroaching upon their boundaries by stalking them in airports or finding out where they live etc is flat-out bad behaviour, and should never be encouraged. But I fail to see anything wrong with people who simply gain enjoyment/fulfilment from the idea of """shipping phan""", and do so in such a way that doesn't force Dan and/or Phil to see anything they wouldn't want to, and is done in a respectful and private way for the fan's own enjoyment. So long as people aren't insisting they know more about Dan and Phil than Dan and Phil themselves, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it.

Of course, there is a wider problem in fandoms of girls (mostly straight) fetishising m/m relationships, at the discomfort of actual gay/bi men. I have no doubt that there are people in the phandom who simply get off on the idea that two attractive white men may be in a sexual relationship, and I agree that those attitudes should be addressed. But I don't think it's fair to compare dnp to larry (or other popular rpf m/m ships), as dnp have a history of interactions lasting eight years to plausibly suggest that they may be in a relationship, while as far as I'm aware there is very little substance to larry beyond a few flirtatious interactions years ago. Am I right in thinking they've barely interacted in years? The two just can not be compared, Dan and Phil are two guys who have been in constant contact since they met, who have lived together for six years in 3 different places, who holiday with each others families etc etc. The wider context of Dan and Phil's relationship is objectively more plausible than many other rpf ships.
goingbackto505 wrote: it's hard for me to imagine that they're some evil manipulators, and I don't want to think of them like that, but that's still sort of possible, because those two never address absolutely anything and I can't take their numerous declarations of attraction towards anime characters and pop singers seriously anymore (again, regardless of gender), because god knows if it's sarcasm, jokes, fanservice or them being genuine.
I personally don't understand this, as if they made constant mentions of attraction toward women it would never be doubted or considered a joke - they would be presumed straight or maaaaaybe bi. It's exhausting to me that people are so wary of taking seriously their mentions of male attraction, and depressing as someone who is closeted but does make mentions of female attraction from time to time. I think Dan especially has tried his absolute hardest over the past two-ish years to make it as clear as possible without explicitly "coming out" that he isn't straight, and it feels like a disservice to him to suggest that he may actually be straight and joking

malday
trash
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:56 pm

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by malday » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:17 am

Of course phan isn't real, they're just two straight bros who built their lives together, and vacation together, and go on dates together, and move in together(3 times) and maybe will buy a house together and get a dog together.

They're not just queerbaiting but also dogbaiting and housebaiting and pandering to the gay agenda at the same time!
Image

User avatar
goingbackto505
spork
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by goingbackto505 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:02 am

captainspacecoat wrote:goingbackto505 I think there's a big difference between fetishising/sexualising dnp in such a way that invades their privacy and effectively dehumanises them, and simply consuming the aspects and examples of their relationship that they provide us with, acknowledging their chemistry and history that they have openly shared with us, and coming to the conclusion that based on these interactions over the past almost 8 years they may be in a relationship of some sort.

I respect your opinion, of course, and yeah, there is a difference, but personally I think it's one thing to come to the conclusion and enjoy the chemistry you might see/feel between them in a respectful way, and it's another thing to spam their @ mentions, youtube comments and everything with how "omg they shared a drink!!!1", "omg guys stop trying to cover up the fact that you slept in the same bed!!!", basically I don't like the way people try to over-analyze their every move and word and how everything is phan proof, even a simple glance or a light tap on the shoulder. not everything has to be romanticized and sexualized and the phandom is reaching for the starts with their desire to find the "proof" every time DnP upload a video.
But I fail to see anything wrong with people who simply gain enjoyment/fulfilment from the idea of """shipping phan""", and do so in such a way that doesn't force Dan and/or Phil to see anything they wouldn't want to, and is done in a respectful and private way for the fan's own enjoyment. So long as people aren't insisting they know more about Dan and Phil than Dan and Phil themselves, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it.
I don't want nor try to force my opinions on others here, it's simply how I feel when it comes to shipping real people, most of all those people who never said they're together, but yeah, of course everyone can ship whatever, since nobody's stopping anyone. I just find the whole concept weird and think Dan and Phil deserve to be appreciated as individuals and as content creators more, and not for being a ship, but that's just my opinion. they want us to view them as best friends, and that's the vibe I initially got from them, so I'm just going to continue enjoying their friendship, or whatever it is they have, but to each their own. I compared them to larry because many phan shippers are just as obsessive and intrusive when it comes to shipping. the over-analyzing, the continuous invasion of Dan and Phil's privacy, the fact that they literally treat them like objects/fictional characters and, despite the fact that they denied being together many times, most phan shippers don't seem to care anyway and just call them liars. also, judging by all the hate on the girls who interact with Dan or Phil, aside from maybe Louise, it's scary to imagine what the phandom might do if either Dan or Phil ever end up in a relationship with someone else. the history of interactions Dan and Phil have could easily be platonic, 2009/10 could be either them having a brief thing in the past or just them joking, or following the British youtube culture of that time. it could be anything, so I can't form a clear opinion here, but the option which seems the most plausible to me is that they had something in the early stages of them knowing each other, and now they're just friends who live together because it's convenient for them. or they were always just friends. I would love to be wrong, though.
I personally don't understand this, as if they made constant mentions of attraction toward women it would never be doubted or considered a joke - they would be presumed straight or maaaaaybe bi. It's exhausting to me that people are so wary of taking seriously their mentions of male attraction, and depressing as someone who is closeted but does make mentions of female attraction from time to time. I think Dan especially has tried his absolute hardest over the past two-ish years to make it as clear as possible without explicitly "coming out" that he isn't straight, and it feels like a disservice to him to suggest that he may actually be straight and joking
I'm sorry if what I said upset you, but I specifically put the "regardless of gender" in-between parenthesis, so I meant to say that I don't take any of their declarations of attraction seriously at this point, be it towards Jennifer Lawrence, Haru or some sexy swim guy. I can't assume their sexualities based on all those mentions, that's what I was trying to say. again, I only suggest the possibility of Dan being straight because that's still a possibility. I mentioned this tweet before
Image
and Dan saying he "doesn't swing that way" when he was talking about Alexander Rybak. I'm not saying he's straight, I have no idea what his sexuality is and tbh I don't really care, as long as he isn't indeed a straight guy who takes advantage of the fact that he's being shipped with another dude in order to get more views and money. like I've said before, I don't want to think of him like that, but that's just something that's been bothering me, nothing more, nothing less.

honestly, I just expressed my opinions, since this thread allows that. they're not together unless they say they are, I'm with PJ on this one, everyone can believe in what they want
Image

ananas
crusty sponge
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by ananas » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:22 pm

goingbackto505 wrote:I've been debating about whether I should make a post on here or not for some time, since, from what I've gathered, almost everyone on this site (who am I kidding, it seems like everyone and their mother ships them) ships and many firmly believe they're together and can do no wrong. I wouldn't want to bring negativity, but since this thread exists, why not lol. I'm sorry in advance, it's going to be a looooooong and unorganized post/ramblings, everybody has already mentioned all of that before, but anyways..
this is just me expressing my opinion, so personally, even though I would be beyond happy if Dan and Phil were together, I find shipping real people creepy and invasive in general, so that's probably the main reason why I'm not a 'phannie'. especially considering the fact that they have never officially said they're a thing and especially because it's known how uncomfortable they're about discussing their personal lives publicly. I just want to respect their wishes, I guess. many people dismiss all of Dan's 2012 rants, answers and denials, but when I read these particular posts, I simply couldn't (and still can't) imagine that that was him lying. it seemed so genuine to me, like he really, really was holding those thoughts inside and then finally let them out:
Image
Image
obviously, all of you have already seen those rants of his a bazillion times, and all those rants are generally disregarded as Dan's "no homo Howell"/"over-dramatic" period, but all I'm getting from them is that Dan was 1000000% done and that whole situation was really stressing him and Phil out. I don't think it was just because of the voldy video being leaked everywhere, and I don't think it's because people were asking him if he's gay or not, which no doubt was frustrating for him as well. imo what was particularly pissing him off is that people collectively assumed/decided that he and Phil were/are in an actual relationship together, which resulted in them "spreading lies and rumors behind his back". I think when he started to get a larger fanbase, he began to want people to take him and his content seriously, and what he actually got was the exact opposite of that. the majority of his and Phil's fans, even to this day, are in it for the shipping and because they find them (typically Dan) attractive, and maybe are sort of okay with it now that they're rich af and have this rare privilege where they can literally not upload for weeks/months and still get a ton of views, even if the actual long awaited videos are mediocre at best. the abomination known as my horse prince, Dan's ISG vids and his weak attempts at trying to be this #relatable #meme #inevergooutsidelol #whatisanexercise persona for 12 year olds, or Phil, despite being a genuinely creative person, simply being lazy and uncreative with his video ideas and just posting something lame, like sponsored videos, forced chatter, or letting Dan curl his hair.. purely so that the shippers would cream themselves over how domestic™ they are being. still, the phans will be happy with almost everything, as long as their otp look at each other, or breathe the same air, really. and Dan and Phil know that now, so they're pretty much secure and think they can allow themselves to be lazy and live in "blissful ignorance".
what bothers me and puts me off the most when it comes to believing that phan is real and the concept of shipping them, is that Dan (and in a way Phil) was SO against people assuming they're together or assuming their sexualities, he denied phan left and right and was clearly uncomfortable with it all, and then they write two books, go on tours and suddenly they seem unbothered and even encourage the shippers with the obvious fanservice. Dan said he was lying and attention-seeking in 2009/10, and I personally can see how it might be true, since he was young, naive, in a way dumb and possibly just going with the trend/crowd. I really don't want to think DnP would stoop so low, but I have this nagging feeling that at this point they sold out and are just giving the fans what they want again and are exploiting the fact that people ship them for their monetary gain. because it's hard for me to imagine how Dan could so easily go from his 2012 statements to what we have now. they never address anything anymore and it bothers me, as well as seems shady. like, there is a large group of 10-15 year olds who basically dehumanize, fetishize and sexualize everything DnP do or say right in the comment sections of their videos, those same 10 year olds make everything about "phan proof", have the "top or bottom" arguments, and just say nothing. I really don't want that to be true, but lately their content just screams "ship/queerbaiting" to me. Dan once said he "doesn't swing that way":
catrific called him one of her only "straight guy friends", to quote pewdiepie:"Why is everything Dan and Phil, everyone wants to see them fuck when it's never gonna happen", voldy seeming scripted and too good to be true to me.. that and when I was watching a video of them together for the first time, all I got was that they're two best friends and it all seemed very platonic to me, are the main reasons why I'm not a shipper and don't believe they're together. it's possible, though, that they had something brief in 2009/10, like Dan was experimenting with Phil, or something like that, and now they're just bffs. and the fact that they haven't been spotted on dates/with some other women/men yet is not a valid argument for me tbh, they could just have casual sex and most of the places they visit are expensive and their tweenage fangirls wouldn't be able to stalk them there.

this is just one possible way for me to express my thoughts RE: phan, sometimes I see their 2009/10 tweets and it makes me smile because of how cute it all was and sometimes I kind of let myself believe they're a couple. but ultimately, it's none of my business either way, I watch them because I adore their friendship and because they're really funny together. I just wish they would address the creepiness of the shippers, and if they're not queer (and I truly hope they're queer, bc otherwise it would be queerbaiting by default, which would mean I can't support them anymore), then they should just say so. alternatively, if they are in a secret relationship with each other/are bisexual, pansexual or whatever else, then obviously they don't have to tell the internet about it, it'd just be a matter of privacy. that's basically it I guess
I just wanted to say I agree with all your responses, it was very interesting to read!

User avatar
goingbackto505
spork
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:52 pm
Pronouns: she/her

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by goingbackto505 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:24 pm

ananas wrote:I just wanted to say I agree with all your responses, it was very interesting to read!
oh, thank you so much! I'm glad to know that you agree :D tbh the more I think about this whole topic, the more confused I get lol. all I can say for sure though is that those two are very self-aware, smart individuals and whatever is happening in the phandom is mostly under their control, for now at least. if they had a serious problem with what people assume, they would've spoken out by now (2012 Dan would), but since they're silent and let their viewers believe in what they want to believe, then maybe their pretty luxurious lifestyle overshadows everything else for them at this point. I also tend to forget sometimes that they control and edit every frame of their videos, so they show us exactly what they want us to see. like, practically nothing in their videos is a "slip-up", it's just there. there are things they don't cut out intentionally, even though they know exactly how the phandom reacts to/over-analyzes everything (because they read the comments). and whatever motivates them to act intentionally flirty on camera sometimes is something I don't understand. it's fanservice either way though, simply because they choose to leave moments like this in the videos and because videos like this exist lol.
Image
I think some things they do aren't meant to be interpreted as platonic and are clearly there for the shippers. want to keep the "are they/aren't they" thing going. idk, I'll just keep watching them for their banter and because Phil happens to be my fav
Image

Danting
smol bean
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:50 am

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Danting » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:27 pm

Okay I've never posted here before but I'm old and I've been a fan of dan and phil off and on SINCE THE BEGINNING and I remember the days when I used to ship them like some of you do now. It was fun back then, when there weren't literally one million phannies doing it. Since then I've grown and discovered a lot about my own sexuality and that helps me realise how I wish to view .

When you grow up you go through a lot of changes. Hormonal, developmental, spiritual, etc etc and it NEVER STOPS. This of course is true for sexuality too, at least I've never been able to look at my own sexuality and felt comfortable defining it in any way. When I was 19 I could totally have said that I was bi on formspring and that would not be true today. dan and phil might've been a thing back then for like a week and that was it. They could've ended their sexual relationship and still managed to stay best friends. (been there done that ) They might also never have touched each other and they might be married. We have literally no idea.

what bothers me the most about this is the constant witch hunt. SO WHAT IF THEY BUM, SO WHAT IF THEY DONT?
What right does anyone think they have to display "proof" about anyone else's sexuality at any point in time? I would hate if anyone tried to out me in this way, whatever my sexuality might me. I would also hate to have MY definition of MY sexualty completely disrespected by people who just have to prove that I am what they want me to be.

Have we ever considered what we might ruin with this gossip? perhaps they are too scared to get into relationships because that person would be stalked to death by their fans and there would be nothing they could do to stop it. Imagine the hate a potential partner of dan or phil would have to endure. (I'm not saying from everyone, I'm sure there'd be loads of love too)

I know fame and money really has a flip side, and this is really it. I'm not saying its not OK to ship or have an otp but the length that people go to in order to prove its real irl freak me out. just enjoy the fantasy, what is it to you??

Why can't people who are completely straight wear/ do stereotypically queer things without being bashed for it? As someone who identify as queer I REALLY DONT GET IT I understand queerbating, oppression and all that but I don't think they're feeding the phans, I think they're being themselves and thats 100% fine by me. I'm queer and I have many straight friends who behave very similarly to DnP. I also have gay friends who act very "straight", its just who they are. nail polish and appreciation for the same gender means nothing to me in terms of the persons sexualty, I am only happy to see people who are open minded regardless of sexuality and gender.

This does seem like a generally very nice forum though and I know a lot of what I said has been discussed by good people here before. I really had to vent though and I hope no ones offended.

User avatar
fancybum
angel bean
Posts: 1416
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:06 am
Location: bork

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by fancybum » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:40 pm

Danting wrote: Why can't people who are completely straight wear/ do stereotypically queer things without being bashed for it? As someone who identify as queer I REALLY DONT GET IT I understand queerbating, oppression and all that but I don't think they're feeding the phans, I think they're being themselves and thats 100% fine by me. I'm queer and I have many straight friends who behave very similarly to DnP. I also have gay friends who act very "straight", its just who they are. nail polish and appreciation for the same gender means nothing to me in terms of the persons sexualty, I am only happy to see people who are open minded regardless of sexuality and gender.
What constitutes being 'bashed' in this scenario? A straight person being called not-straight/queer?
Thanks and have a great day! Oil me

iwishiwasacasual
glabella
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:01 am
Pronouns: she/her
Location: england

Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by iwishiwasacasual » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:06 pm

Danting wrote:As someone who identify as queer I REALLY DONT GET IT I understand queerbating, oppression and all that but I don't think they're feeding the phans, I think they're being themselves and thats 100% fine by me. I'm queer and I have many straight friends who behave very similarly to DnP. I also have gay friends who act very "straight", its just who they are. nail polish and appreciation for the same gender means nothing to me in terms of the persons sexualty, I am only happy to see people who are open minded regardless of sexuality and gender.
are we watching the same people? of course they feed the 'phans'. ive said the same things in this thread but dan and phil know what their most committed fans is here for, phan. i'm going to quote someone else because i'm lazy:
goingbackto505 wrote:they control and edit every frame of their videos, so they show us exactly what they want us to see. like, practically nothing in their videos is a "slip-up", it's just there. there are things they don't cut out intentionally, even though they know exactly how the phandom reacts to/over-analyzes everything (because they read the comments)
they know what the fans think when the act 'flirty' or 'couple-y' and those are the fans they want to keep engaged because they're the ones buying shit and rewatching videos.

i'm fine with this if they're together or queer or whatever but if they are two single straight dudes 'playing gay' for views it doesn't take a genius to realise that's a dicky thing to do.

i would talk about the other stuff you've written because i think you have some valid points and i hope i didn't come off as too dismissive or anything but if i know the people on this website you're probably going to have some other people disagreeing with you so i'll just stop here.

Post Reply