i love hearing everyone's different experiences!! i started watching dnp casually in 2012 but got into the thick of it in 2014. like DEEEP, tumblr, fanfics, everything. i was semi big in the phanart tumblr space when i was like 15 which is hilarious to me, and i did draw shipping art (i have a lot of regrets). i remember when people were finding their address based on the view outside their apartment (yikes) and being in all kinds of group chats on twitter. one of the groupchats had ShittyWatercolour in it which is kind of weird looking back as im sure most of us were minors and he was in his 20s, but at the time we thought it was soooo cool bc he would talk to dan sometimes and tell us about it.
anyway, i fell off around 2018 a little before the hiatus and now am fully back as an adult who is much more respectful🫶🫶 i wonder if i interacted with any of you on twitter back in the day!!
Dan and Phil Part 104: DAPG IS BACK FROM THE DEAD
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howadorableright
- sad dimple
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 2:00 am
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back back back back again
So I just watched Second thought’s video on the big YouTubers who are quitting or scaling down. It reminded me of what Phil talked about in draw my life 2, and what Dan talked about in Quitting YouTube.
I think (or maybe hope), that we were lucky that they got over this hurdle of working non stop, and in stead of quitting, they figured out how to still put out content, but also have a life separate from that… like how we don’t always get content from vacations or other interesting stuff they do in their free time. It’s probably the only sustainable way to be a content creator.
Plus, I’ve really enjoyed how chilled the content is a lot of the time. It really makes them my favorite comfort content creators, I always know I’ll laugh and have a good time when they upload
I think (or maybe hope), that we were lucky that they got over this hurdle of working non stop, and in stead of quitting, they figured out how to still put out content, but also have a life separate from that… like how we don’t always get content from vacations or other interesting stuff they do in their free time. It’s probably the only sustainable way to be a content creator.
Plus, I’ve really enjoyed how chilled the content is a lot of the time. It really makes them my favorite comfort content creators, I always know I’ll laugh and have a good time when they upload
I wish I had better memory to remember how and when I got into Dan and Phil, but I am pretty sure it was from some collab with Charlie and Alex nerimon back in the day. I was aware of all the british youtubers at the time and I would check their videos every now and then but knew absolutely nothing about their personal lives - don't think I even realised Dan and Phil lived together until they moved and posted the London apartment tour. Since then I would maybe once every few years remember them, binge through all the new videos, and then sort of forget about them until next time lol. I remember the baking videos being my fave and one thing that always helped me with homesickness while I was in uni was the festive day in the life, I could put it on in the middle of April and it would still bring a smile to my face and was just so comforting!!
It's really strange though that while I watched both of their videos and actually liked Phil more, I only remember Dan's videos from those early years. The panic button, his accent, how he got fired, the hamster escape story, etc but somehow I can't think of a single specific Phil video from that time.
What's interesting to me is that I actually listened to a lot of Radio 1 at the time cause I enjoyed Nick Grimshaw and it was definitely a surprise seeing Dan and Phil in his Vines or when he'd mention them for something cause it was a case of worlds colliding (I never listed to Dnp on the radio, their show just was not at all my thing). There was the Edinburgh fringe cabaret thing I remember and then also a time when Radio 1 did this whole honesty thing. They had a spinning confessions wheel with prompts like "You don't know that I know..." "I've never told you..." and I remember different DJs would do them across the week, and as they announced Dnp I remember the breakfast show discussing what they would be confessing and someone said "their love for each other" and everyone laughed. I never quite could put to words why it bothered me or stuck with me for all those years, their colleagues joking like that
I think I first ventured into fandom spaces around the start of the two apartments theory. I saw a comment about it somewhere, checked gurugossiper where someone referenced this place and then I spent the next few years just on and off lurking here, read back 20 pages in one go and then leave lol. There was also a tumblr page that had google spreadsheets about EVERYTHING like literally every single interaction which freaked me out
so I stayed away from anything Dnp related on there.
I feel like I got fully invested in them around the start of the Stereo shows, I listened to the first live one and then I was hooked, it was so great to have something to look forward to and I absolutely loved their unedited dynamic and humour.
It's really strange though that while I watched both of their videos and actually liked Phil more, I only remember Dan's videos from those early years. The panic button, his accent, how he got fired, the hamster escape story, etc but somehow I can't think of a single specific Phil video from that time.
What's interesting to me is that I actually listened to a lot of Radio 1 at the time cause I enjoyed Nick Grimshaw and it was definitely a surprise seeing Dan and Phil in his Vines or when he'd mention them for something cause it was a case of worlds colliding (I never listed to Dnp on the radio, their show just was not at all my thing). There was the Edinburgh fringe cabaret thing I remember and then also a time when Radio 1 did this whole honesty thing. They had a spinning confessions wheel with prompts like "You don't know that I know..." "I've never told you..." and I remember different DJs would do them across the week, and as they announced Dnp I remember the breakfast show discussing what they would be confessing and someone said "their love for each other" and everyone laughed. I never quite could put to words why it bothered me or stuck with me for all those years, their colleagues joking like that
I think I first ventured into fandom spaces around the start of the two apartments theory. I saw a comment about it somewhere, checked gurugossiper where someone referenced this place and then I spent the next few years just on and off lurking here, read back 20 pages in one go and then leave lol. There was also a tumblr page that had google spreadsheets about EVERYTHING like literally every single interaction which freaked me out
so I stayed away from anything Dnp related on there. I feel like I got fully invested in them around the start of the Stereo shows, I listened to the first live one and then I was hooked, it was so great to have something to look forward to and I absolutely loved their unedited dynamic and humour.
I first started to get into them in early 2014; I was a precocious 12 year old and found out about their videos from a friend who had a fan account on instagram for them.
I basically watched all of their videos over the next couple of months - I was young, so not really too involved in the fan spaces at this time. I feel like this is discussed a lot here and I don't want to project onto Dan and Phil but as a neurodivergent young person (not implying Dan and Phil are necessarily neurodivergent), it was kind of a big deal to have someone talk about social awkwardness and being introverted and not really fitting in. The term "cringe attack" is still in my lexicon today lol.
Watching back some of their older videos now, they lowkey inadvertently cultivated one of the most unique and recognisable genres on YouTube in the early 2010s, lol. I don't think enough people give them credit for this. Yes, it was highly derivative of whatever was popular on the Internet at the time but they seriously created an ecological niche in the YouTube vlogger foodchain and by God did they defend it fiercely for years.
I was in secondary school around the time of their two "peaks" (I would say the first peak was the radio 1 era and the second was TATINOF etc.) and they really were like the social rejects' One Direction; people wore their merchandise, people drew cat whiskers on their faces during our lunch break. I literally made friends with people at school through Dan and Phil. They were absolutely massive amongst the weird teenage girl crew.
Anyway, later on during 2014 I started listening/watching to their radio shows. I must have been pretty into them by the end of 2014 because I vividly remember anticipating pinof 6 and refreshing Phil's youtube page for the video whenever it was posted. I made my first fan account for them on Instagram at the end of 2014.
I knew what 'Phan' was because my friend who had introduced them to me in the first place had told me about it. I didn't really know what to make of their relationship and tbh the diehard shipping didn't really appeal to me. Shipping was a way bigger thing back then (not sure if this is just a perspective bias but you don't really hear about 'shipping' too much these days really) and included things like Larry so I just assumed that Phan kind of came under the same umbrella of silliness and that it was just a bromance. I loved their dynamic so much and my opinion was that if they are happy in a relationship together, this would make me happy for them.
I went to TATINOF in 2015, bought their book etc., was very active in the phandom on Instagram making the most 2015-coded tumblr-esque collages of them both with song lyrics etc. and flower crowns.
However, by 2017, I had sort of grown out of them and my fan account was long deactivated (rip). I would watch the occasional Dan and phil games video, I would still watch some of their main channel uploads (for example, I watched Dan's diss track but I didn't learn it off by heart, which is probably what I would have done when I was 12).
When Dan uploaded his coming out video in 2019, I was surprised because I never expected him to ever discuss his sexuality but really proud of him. I thought his video was amazing and I re-watched it so many times. And thus another Dan and Phil phase begun.
My next major Dan and Phil phase was when they were doing the Stereo liveshows. In hindsight, it was definitely the combination of 1) a lockdown and using them as an emotional crutch 2) me coming to the end of my education and feeling really reflective and 3) just straight nostalgia for 2014 but guys, I was DEEP in a Dan and Phil phase at this time. Their little anecdotes on the behind the scenes stuff was what got me through February/March of 2021. I would listen to the songs they played on their radio show, like the regression was stronggg
And then cut a long story short my current Dan and Phil phase is this one because of the revival of the gaming channel. I use the term 'phases' but honestly they are my favourite internet creators/influences/[insert job title] and I will always be in a Dan and Phil phase, they hold such a special, nostalgia-tinged place in my heart
Sorry this was so long and I'm not sure if any of you guys can relate but this was my experience of getting into dan and phil and my love for them ever sinceeeee
I basically watched all of their videos over the next couple of months - I was young, so not really too involved in the fan spaces at this time. I feel like this is discussed a lot here and I don't want to project onto Dan and Phil but as a neurodivergent young person (not implying Dan and Phil are necessarily neurodivergent), it was kind of a big deal to have someone talk about social awkwardness and being introverted and not really fitting in. The term "cringe attack" is still in my lexicon today lol.
Watching back some of their older videos now, they lowkey inadvertently cultivated one of the most unique and recognisable genres on YouTube in the early 2010s, lol. I don't think enough people give them credit for this. Yes, it was highly derivative of whatever was popular on the Internet at the time but they seriously created an ecological niche in the YouTube vlogger foodchain and by God did they defend it fiercely for years.
I was in secondary school around the time of their two "peaks" (I would say the first peak was the radio 1 era and the second was TATINOF etc.) and they really were like the social rejects' One Direction; people wore their merchandise, people drew cat whiskers on their faces during our lunch break. I literally made friends with people at school through Dan and Phil. They were absolutely massive amongst the weird teenage girl crew.
Anyway, later on during 2014 I started listening/watching to their radio shows. I must have been pretty into them by the end of 2014 because I vividly remember anticipating pinof 6 and refreshing Phil's youtube page for the video whenever it was posted. I made my first fan account for them on Instagram at the end of 2014.
I knew what 'Phan' was because my friend who had introduced them to me in the first place had told me about it. I didn't really know what to make of their relationship and tbh the diehard shipping didn't really appeal to me. Shipping was a way bigger thing back then (not sure if this is just a perspective bias but you don't really hear about 'shipping' too much these days really) and included things like Larry so I just assumed that Phan kind of came under the same umbrella of silliness and that it was just a bromance. I loved their dynamic so much and my opinion was that if they are happy in a relationship together, this would make me happy for them.
I went to TATINOF in 2015, bought their book etc., was very active in the phandom on Instagram making the most 2015-coded tumblr-esque collages of them both with song lyrics etc. and flower crowns.
However, by 2017, I had sort of grown out of them and my fan account was long deactivated (rip). I would watch the occasional Dan and phil games video, I would still watch some of their main channel uploads (for example, I watched Dan's diss track but I didn't learn it off by heart, which is probably what I would have done when I was 12).
When Dan uploaded his coming out video in 2019, I was surprised because I never expected him to ever discuss his sexuality but really proud of him. I thought his video was amazing and I re-watched it so many times. And thus another Dan and Phil phase begun.
My next major Dan and Phil phase was when they were doing the Stereo liveshows. In hindsight, it was definitely the combination of 1) a lockdown and using them as an emotional crutch 2) me coming to the end of my education and feeling really reflective and 3) just straight nostalgia for 2014 but guys, I was DEEP in a Dan and Phil phase at this time. Their little anecdotes on the behind the scenes stuff was what got me through February/March of 2021. I would listen to the songs they played on their radio show, like the regression was stronggg
And then cut a long story short my current Dan and Phil phase is this one because of the revival of the gaming channel. I use the term 'phases' but honestly they are my favourite internet creators/influences/[insert job title] and I will always be in a Dan and Phil phase, they hold such a special, nostalgia-tinged place in my heart
Sorry this was so long and I'm not sure if any of you guys can relate but this was my experience of getting into dan and phil and my love for them ever sinceeeee
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Levitating
- #relatable
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:00 am
I love reading your stories!
In the meantime: how cute is the new doll? https://youtooz.com/products/amazingphil
Do you think Phil knows about omegaverse? It's something I've learned about just recently myself but wonder how 'famous' it is in fandom culture ahah
I've also enjoyed their last video together. It was so relaxed and fun.
In the meantime: how cute is the new doll? https://youtooz.com/products/amazingphil
Do you think Phil knows about omegaverse? It's something I've learned about just recently myself but wonder how 'famous' it is in fandom culture ahah
I've also enjoyed their last video together. It was so relaxed and fun.
Delightful video, excellent choice of gifts. The otomatone duet was the cutest thing and as much as Dan (pretends to) hate it, he still got the golden pig a tiny friend.
@Levitating Omegaverse stuff is pretty big in a lot of fandom circles, including the phandom. It has even crossed over from fanfic to actually published books I think. There's no way Phil doesn't at least know about the basics.
Oddly enough, it was the Yogscast that got me into Dan and Phil. This was back in 2013, when Zoey Proasheck came out and started doing Minecraft videos with her partner. I was but a young gay in highschool (and the closet), so that series immediately became my comfort watch. Then, while I was browsing their tag on Tumblr (as one did), I came across a list of queer gaming channels on YouTube, and DAPG was on the list! So I actually had no idea they were pretending to be straight/just-roommates. I just went, "Oh, cool, boyfriends playing the Sims together. #goals". And that was that! I of course watched PINOF when I found out about it (I think they plugged it on the gaming channel?), and the other Joint Content™ videos shortly after, but I never really had any interest in their solo videos, so I didn't know much about them as individuals at all.
Several times before, I had looked into fandoms around gay guys hoping to find other people like me, and instead found a lot of teenage girls seemingly incapable of not being Uncomfortably Weird About It. Needless to say, it only took one Tumblr search to reveal the same phenomenon with Dan and Phil. So I avoided those spaces and ignored the YouTube comments and stayed pretty much outside of the unfolding drama. By coincidence, I was shortly afterward forcibly outed by a couple of teenage girls with the same attitudes of being Uncomfortably Weird About It, so when everything went down, I was firmly on Dan and Phil's side and regarded the fandom antagonistically if not with outright hostility. There's still a part of my subconscious that associates the fandom's hobbyist sleuthing (e.g. the second apartment thing) with the distress of having my own sexuality sleuthed and exposed, however unfair that might be. To be honest, the return of DAPG, with both of them comfortably out, has been quasi-therapeutic in a way I wasn't expecting, and it's been nice to see the fandom chilling out and maturing as well. There's been a sense of closure, I guess. We're all adults. It's 2024. Dan ended homophobia forever by dressing up as a nun. The world is healing.
Several times before, I had looked into fandoms around gay guys hoping to find other people like me, and instead found a lot of teenage girls seemingly incapable of not being Uncomfortably Weird About It. Needless to say, it only took one Tumblr search to reveal the same phenomenon with Dan and Phil. So I avoided those spaces and ignored the YouTube comments and stayed pretty much outside of the unfolding drama. By coincidence, I was shortly afterward forcibly outed by a couple of teenage girls with the same attitudes of being Uncomfortably Weird About It, so when everything went down, I was firmly on Dan and Phil's side and regarded the fandom antagonistically if not with outright hostility. There's still a part of my subconscious that associates the fandom's hobbyist sleuthing (e.g. the second apartment thing) with the distress of having my own sexuality sleuthed and exposed, however unfair that might be. To be honest, the return of DAPG, with both of them comfortably out, has been quasi-therapeutic in a way I wasn't expecting, and it's been nice to see the fandom chilling out and maturing as well. There's been a sense of closure, I guess. We're all adults. It's 2024. Dan ended homophobia forever by dressing up as a nun. The world is healing.
I still see loads of fangirls going crazy over them and little moments about them on tiktok, they are probably very young teens too. So i agree the ones that watched them for a long time have grown up from being uncomfortably weird about them but the new generation of fans, i feel they are like that again.
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Levitating
- #relatable
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- Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:00 am
What do you mean by "looking into fandoms"? You entered chatrooms and started following Tumblr accounts and asked for people's genders?
Just curious to know how you knew they were all girls! To me, queer/'aesthetic' fandoms do seem a female-dominated spaces, , but do not have actual numbers, if not a recent article on K-pop fandom. (*aesthetic = where the idol also happens to be known particularly for his beauty)
Because if it is female-dominated, I just feel compelled to add an annoying "not all women" behave like that and that, simply, when there is a majority, the numer of its weirdos will be louder (and feel greater) than the corresponding weirdos in the minority.
On the Omegaverse: thank you for clarifying! I do not particularly like it (it has a lingering sensation of being misogynist
) so happy for DnP not to acknowledge it.Yeah i agree with levitating, this feels a little "ugh those crazy fangirls, always girls going crazy over men, it's so weird and abnormal. Men aren't like that, they are normal" when to be honest the only raison i'm uncomfortable with people doing it is because dan and phil themselves might see the discussion and the crazy things said. I think some things should be kept in private chats. And also i think note would be surprised at how the invasiveness of their privacy could be done by cis gay men too. Or just nonbinaries and any human in general.
Searching Tumblr tags, mainly.
At the time, it was common for people to put their age and gender in their Tumblr profiles. I don't know if that has changed.
I agree, and I apologize if I came across as implying otherwise.Levitating wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:30 am Because if it is female-dominated, I just feel compelled to add an annoying "not all women" behave like that and that, simply, when there is a majority, the numer of its weirdos will be louder (and feel greater) than the corresponding weirdos in the minority.
Nothing to do with "crazy" or "abnormal". Everyone was Uncomfortably Weird about something or other in high school.
We get a livestream! And it’s for charity!! And I’m free to watch it live!!! Woohop!!!!
Also, the people who suggested gifts for Phil and the Dan who picked them out did a good job. The alpha shirt is so funny and the little golden pig is so cute.
Also, the people who suggested gifts for Phil and the Dan who picked them out did a good job. The alpha shirt is so funny and the little golden pig is so cute.
I'm having a stress.
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howadorableright
- sad dimple
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i will say as a high school girl at the time almost everyone i was interacting with in the dnp space was also a teen girl! not everyone for sure but i would say like 80% that i was interacting with identified as a girl at that time. of course, it is to be said that it makes sense that i was in those spaces bc that was my demographic so i most likely would not have come across many older fans but thats just my personal experience. no hate all love 🫶
back back back back again
I'm glad none of the twitter craziness reached this forum because from what I've heard, some "fans" have been trying to cancel D&P since the latest gaming video for posting during the strike for Palestine (which wasn't about not posting during that time so idk what they're on about) and for having audible as a sponsor. So as with these situations those people have been moaning about how D&P need to apologize/do something/delete the video etc. How the stream is not good enough/soon enough and stuff like that. I'm only hearing about this second hand and it's exhausting enough.
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literally_formless
- butt chair
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I wasn't a fan before 2021 so I don't feel personally defensive about Note's post but I hope it's not too out there to agree that the look of a fandom can be very monolithic and the loudest voices, especially in a big fandom as it was at the time, make a big difference to who wants to join it. Dan and Phil could see their own YouTube analytics and it sounds like even they thought their audience was teenage girls in the US and UK by a big majority.
Wow, I did not expect my anecdote to turn into a whole discussion. Just to be clear in case I came across as sexist, I can personally testify that the ways in which teenage girls are weird about gay guys are basically harmless compared to the ways in which teenage guys are weird about it—Dan has told plenty of stories about that! Similarly, Dan and Phil regularly commented on their fans being teenage girls at the time, so I didn't realize it was a controversial thing to bring up. I didn't think my comment would be anything more than one out of a dozen other comments of people sharing their history and the degree to which they experienced fandom drama. The overall point I was making was "things are a lot better and more healthy than they used to be," which I don't think of as a controversial statement; maybe I overemphasized the degree to which they used to not be. If I did offend anyone, I sincerely apologize for that.
EDIT: I checked my original comment and I did not make any assertions about "only girls did this" or that "it is only teen girls". I said that when I looked at the Dan and Phil fandom, the people that I found were teenage girls. That's what my experience was; that's what happened. It's not a statistic, it's an anecdote. There may be some blowing out of proportion happening here.
EDIT: I checked my original comment and I did not make any assertions about "only girls did this" or that "it is only teen girls". I said that when I looked at the Dan and Phil fandom, the people that I found were teenage girls. That's what my experience was; that's what happened. It's not a statistic, it's an anecdote. There may be some blowing out of proportion happening here.
The thing is, boys also do this with lesbians. And there is much to that, going so far as guys realising they are trans fem because of it. I think you should be more open in your thinking and not this black and white. Yes some don't have good intentions, but not everyone as we have seen many girls who shipped dan and phil realised they were lesbians.
You talk about all the stalking, the invasiveness or the shipping and freak out in general ?
Maybe there is some misunderstanding, i have been posting while at work and i might have not reflected on what you said enoug but that's how i understand what you say. Please correct me if i'm wrong !
Considering i wasn't there when it happened i trust people when they say only girls. I'm talking about other places. But i was there for like, the origin of the two appartement theory, where does it come from ? I actually don't remember, i didn't participate in it but i remember seeing it. I do know things like floor plans where shared and if i saw correctly it wasn't teens.howadorableright wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 4:26 pm i will say as a high school girl at the time almost everyone i was interacting with in the dnp space was also a teen girl! not everyone for sure but i would say like 80% that i was interacting with identified as a girl at that time. of course, it is to be said that it makes sense that i was in those spaces bc that was my demographic so i most likely would not have come across many older fans but thats just my personal experience. no hate all love 🫶
And sorry if i come across as rude lol it is not my intentions. I didn't know it might have been rude the way i'm disagreeing with anyone. I'm sorry, i like being opiniated online and english is not my native language so maybe i express myself weirdly. Absolutely no hard feelings.
Regarding the strike, personally saw very few people respecting or sharing that strike at all, including among other celebrities. Apparently people were asking others to not go to school or their job to support palestine ? I don't know how that would work ?
I agree, and I have no idea how I might have conveyed otherwise. People were accusing me of saying teenage girls were the only ones who got weird about gay guys, so I mentioned that teenage guys also do that, and in a worse way.
I don't... what is this about? Here is the entirety of what I said: "Several times before, I had looked into fandoms around gay guys hoping to find other people like me, and instead found a lot of teenage girls seemingly incapable of not being Uncomfortably Weird About It." That is what happened to me. I can assure you it 's true; I was there, being me! I guess I didn't think that sentence obligated me to list off every possible combination of gender, orientation, age, and being weird about it. I certainly didn't think it would turn into... all of this. It was just a thing that happened to me, so I mentioned it in my comment because it was relevant. I didn't think people were going to argue with me about whether the things that happened to me were real or not, or even really discuss it at all, because that didn't happen with anyone else's comments about their personal history.
Last edited by Note on Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I got into Phil around 2008. There was something weird and edgy about him...yeah ... he was a bit derivative of Fred at times but Phil was charming and hooked me in. Phil truly is one of the OG Youtubers and never gets the credit for sticking with it like he did. He and Charlie, Craig (Wheezywaiter) and a couple more. I didn't subscribe but I searched out his videos every week. My favorite video of his in the old days was AmericanPhil which was just a weird vlog of him in Florida which was actually kinda fun. And short. I think he has privated that one.
As for Dan ... he suddenly appeared in 2009 and never left. Lol. That's my summation of that.
Phil's new video is cute and I can't believe he's going to be 37. This is making me feel really old. (I'm older than Phil but still ... yeesh. Lol)
As for Dan ... he suddenly appeared in 2009 and never left. Lol. That's my summation of that.
Phil's new video is cute and I can't believe he's going to be 37. This is making me feel really old. (I'm older than Phil but still ... yeesh. Lol)
Yeah i don't know Note. I think we'll agree to disagree on this one. You can have your opinion and i have mine.
I think there is something deeper about all of this and tells a lot about humanity, not to be a "this is so deep ugh" kind of cringe person but yes, i probably could have long lenght conversations with someone about what the phandom and how people acted with dan and phil all means. I have been a critic of it and also a defender. I just find it interesting.
I think there is something deeper about all of this and tells a lot about humanity, not to be a "this is so deep ugh" kind of cringe person but yes, i probably could have long lenght conversations with someone about what the phandom and how people acted with dan and phil all means. I have been a critic of it and also a defender. I just find it interesting.
I don't even understand what we're disagreeing about? I agree with everything you've said. Are you disagreeing that the things I mentioned happening to me actually happened? Because I can promise they did; I was there.
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literally_formless
- butt chair
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This is embarrassing, y'all.
No i'm not disagreeing with that
I have been writing a long answer to this but i think it's too controversial and irrevelant for this forum so i'll stop there unfortunately. I think it's the kind of discussion that would fit reddit or something !