Dan & Phil Part 31: You're stuck with me for life

[melon lord]

I don't disagree that the "phan come out already" and vday screenshots are innapropiate! Those totally are. The silly challenges on the other hand seem harmless to me. If someone wants to joke about dan proposing to phil or vice versa and make it into a challenge they should be allowed. I agree that they're not our puppets to act out our phantasies etc. but given the past pinofs, they've been pretty complacent about acting things out which leave me with the impression that they don't care as much as we do. Even the tumblr tag, when someone sent a pic of them kissing they barely reacted so I bet they're used to it. At the end of the day, they have the power to choose what questions they want and don't want to use. They also edit so they'll get to choose how the video turns out, not the fans.

The thing is, a silly fake marriage proposal or whatever would be funny and harmless with two people who don't have a huge, messy history between themselves, and the fans know that. Like, if it was Dan and... idk, Tyler? It'd be funny because we understand it's all free of complications and something to have a laugh at when they overact or act funny. But Dan and Phil have a really old, deeply rooted past with Phan™ and it clearly struck a nerve at some point in their life, which is why it's extra-sore when the fans poke at old wounds.

Like, I understand what you're saying. The boys are grown up and it's not 2012 anymore. I am confident they can handle it because it's not only fans that mock them, but their peers too, which is even worse tbh. But those questions

a) become a self-fulfilling prophecy for Dan's "is this what you fucking wanted" rants because, well... that's what fans harass them about, isn't it? He calls them out on their thirst and they don't even back down, they just double on the effort to get a reaction out of them, then they'll go around either feeling grossly proud of themselves or suddenly feel guilty once they get harassed by the Phan Police

b) have no usefulness whatsoever. They have the opportunity to ask something ridiculous or challenge them to something funny, and they waste their time typing out personal questions that they secretly hope will be the last drop spilling over the edge of the glass. All these fans are thinking to themselves "hah I'm so clever, I'll ask them about this, they are bound to react to it, right?" while having creepy fantasies about the idea that they actually might kiss or propose on camera. On a purely practical standpoint it's such a waste of effort and time to bother with asking these things, which makes me question the fans's mental horizon.

c) Honest to goodness those fans just want recognition if their fantasy becomes true. They'll retweet and reblog and make gifs and they'll feel like they are the ruler of the universe because they have this perverse obsession with getting deppy to act on what they say. So the shock value escalates with each passing hour because they are desperate to get some twisted 15 minutes of fame.

d) voyeurism

e) It makes us seem bad. Yeah, I know deppy are smarter than that and they understand that we don't all act that way, but just like Dan throws some salt around at criticism/behaviours he sees online from fans and we the forum members are like "eh??? where'd he see that?", he doesn't see a varied, complex spectrum of people that like his content. He sees a shapeless, faceless blob called "fans", on the internet, in thousands and millions, that all flood him with whatever comes out their arse head. It doesn't make me want to associate myself with the invisible label that is "Dan and Phil fan".


I've lost count here tbh I'm perfectly sure they'll just eyeroll and pick the questions that aren't weird, but the debate isn't about how they handle it, it's about how fans act, and that discussion could take hours, and a lot of alcohol in my case.

[ladygaga]

off topic but important (sorry if this has been mentioned already?!) - I noticed that Phil's recent sleepless video has been properly captioned!

i'm not an expert on any of this but it would seem Phil has turned on the community captions feature, which means viewers can submit a transcript of what is being said to insert into the video
(to submit captions on a video replace 'watch' in the URL with 'timedtext_video'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2H2ZH8fZIU&t=44s

for some reason not all of his videos allow this yet i'm not sure why

this is awesome

[malday]

i'm not going to quote every opinion from the last 3 pages, but i agree with many of the observations of the last few weeks and they were said better than I could.

17.45 "I was already terrified of going because it was a social situation..."

I wonder if the submissiveness with cutting off his own train of thought when Phil asks (tells) or asking permission to tell a story is related to how Dan feels about his own ability to socialise. because I do think his whole career, in a way, is socialising. sometimes it feels like watching one giant long very intimate therapy session, and i don't get that feeling from Phil. how Dan presents himself online, how he acts at awards shows, how he speaks to followers in liveshows, how he speaks to (or avoids) peers, what he prints in their books, it's all the same process. making a video or presenting yourself online can be a solitary act of self-expression, you can do it and walk away. but not so much when you're earning income from it. it becomes a constant two-way stream. what he experiences is not what 99% of us experience, and how we use social media and how we operate in society as an individual. what makes Dan easy to relate to and a great online personality are also probably the reasons he shouldn't be doing this for a living, and that's a difficult dichotomy.

i relate to that sense of relief in letting someone take the decision from you, when you don't trust yourself/are exhausted with yourself and your own tendencies, particularly if they're being exacerbated during a period of time in your life. i don't think it's unhealthy to rely on someone in the way Dan seems to whenever they're together. i do wonder however how much he does it. i hope for his own sake that he's able to swing back again soon (for life is always a see-saw, not a one-way trajectory). i'm picking up on lots of behaviour i recognise from other periods the last month or so; increased fidgeting in liveshows, pulling silly facial expressions or grimacing to seemingly mask deadpan-ness, kind of out-of-the-blue shadiness (i do think he's fixated on the fanservice thing lately), sometimes jarring out-there sexuality, self-deprecating and nihilistic comments. attention seeking reblogging and liking online, etc. Mixed in with all this are amazing, positive things he should be owning and expressing, and genuinely funny moments, and pride in his personal relationships and friendships (i sense a renewed desire for the later, perhaps through hanging out with Pj lately from the spontaneous mentions; he represents someone established and familiar but not necessarily who he has been close to). the impulsiveness that comes from an unsettled period of change is a double-edged sword. Phil is also flourishing so fast it's hard to keep up, he becomes realer to me by the day, but it doesn't feel like watching the same movie as Dan's. their energy is balancing one another at the moment, and they are so very lucky to have that (and I think they know it and that is where the urgency and fondness still springs from). the one thing I relish more than watching two people who just work together is watching an individual come into their own, though. on their own terms, no apologies.

Sorry for replying to something from a few pages back, especially since the topic has moved on.

But i was intrigued by this analysis.

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

[majitzu]

off topic but important (sorry if this has been mentioned already?!) - I noticed that Phil's recent sleepless video has been properly captioned!

i'm not an expert on any of this but it would seem Phil has turned on the community captions feature, which means viewers can submit a transcript of what is being said to insert into the video
(to submit captions on a video replace 'watch' in the URL with 'timedtext_video'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2H2ZH8fZIU&t=44s

for some reason not all of his videos allow this yet i'm not sure why

this is awesome

Yeah he turned them on like a month or something like that ago, whoever he has never talked about it

[teamug]

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

Very opposite viewpoint from my own, not in any way less valid though. But wouldn't a narcissistic person rather talk to others than not? Or do you mean that Dan thinks too highly of himself to interact? Personally, I've thought the lack of socializing is from inability not unwillingness, mostly stemming from (IN MY OPINION) self-esteem, anxiety, and a need for external validation wherein he wants to control interactions and thus how he is perceived by others.

[kuensukki]

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

Very opposite viewpoint from my own, not in any way less valid though. But wouldn't a narcissistic person rather talk to others than not? Or do you mean that Dan thinks too highly of himself to interact? Personally, I've thought the lack of socializing is from inability not unwillingness, mostly stemming from (IN MY OPINION) self-esteem, anxiety, and a need for external validation wherein he wants to control interactions and thus how he is perceived by others.

I was about to say this!! People who have met dan IRL have said he's been shy and nervous, not because he isn't willing to interact with his fans, but just because that's the way he is. Even seeing vlogs and stuff you can see him clutching to his phone like security blanket. Rewatch the vlogs or dan clips from BONCAS and you can see how nervous and lost dan looked that phil had to look back and continue talking to him throughout. I honestly don't know how dan is changing but I don't think it's because he's becoming an existentialist, more that HES aware of his audience and what they want and is sometimes defensive or resentful about it. He also hasnt had a great year on his channel and is maybe aware of the pressures that are coming.

[mermaid blood]

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

Very opposite viewpoint from my own, not in any way less valid though. But wouldn't a narcissistic person rather talk to others than not? Or do you mean that Dan thinks too highly of himself to interact? Personally, I've thought the lack of socializing is from inability not unwillingness, mostly stemming from (IN MY OPINION) self-esteem, anxiety, and a need for external validation wherein he wants to control interactions and thus how he is perceived by others.

I was about to say this!! People who have met dan IRL have said he's been shy and nervous, not because he isn't willing to interact with his fans, but just because that's the way he is. Even seeing vlogs and stuff you can see him clutching to his phone like security blanket. Rewatch the vlogs or dan clips from BONCAS and you can see how nervous and lost dan looked that phil had to look back and continue talking to him throughout. I honestly don't know how dan is changing but I don't think it's because he's becoming an existentialist, more that HES aware of his audience and what they want and is sometimes defensive or resentful about it. He also hasnt had a great year on his channel and is maybe aware of the pressures that are coming.

I think there could be a case made for claiming narcissism if Dan displayed any narcissistic traits. social avoidance on it's own isn't one. where it gets mistaken for it is often when the observer isn't educated about social anxiety. social anxiety isn't shyness. but shy people can be. and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event. not saying this is why you're perceiving Dan the way you do, but it isn't uncommon among fans. not understanding how tehse behaviours and emotional states correlate and thinking they contradict one another, so one must be a fabrication for comedy/brand purposes (or actual narcissism). Of course there are many reasons to avoid socialising besides anxiety, but until I see Dan display any of them I will assume he is socially anxious and not believing himself superior. he's said it in his own words, displays uncontrollable physical cues and generally lives his life in a way that gives me more than enough reason. i wouldn't diagnose him with a functional disorder, that is only something that the institution and people who place value in the institution can do/accept.

a few days ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJgNEx8 ... =phanshows
17.42 "So I was already scared of going because it was a social situation..."

quoting myself from GG because i'm too lazy to extract the timestamps and rephrase them, just a random grab bag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju1d6xhCvdY#t=0
38.55 -
"No confidence. That entire weekend in Scotland was a kind of symbol for how much confidence I have yet to have. Cause a lot of people say 'wow Dan, you do a lot of public speaking and stuff, you must have X amount of confidence'. And I think definitely, as a lot of people say, doing Youtube videos helps you with your confidence and public speaking. But I'm obviously not confident enough with myself. It shows that I'm not confident about myself...you know what I mean? If I was confident about who I was, and how I looked, and how I sound, and what I'm going to talk about then I'd be like, *claps* Hi I'm Dan! Nice to meet you!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNLyimuZZA#t=765
12.20 - He cried himself to sleep after the above incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYoP9ZsHeNM&
10.43 - "I get very anxious about a lot of stuff. I'm a very paranoid and self-critical person."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYoP9ZsHeNM&
7.54 "I can be confident when I want to be. I can do public speaking - maybe. my knees will shake a lot. I can do a radioshow. but every now and then, i will just have random acts of inexplicable, excruciating awkwardness."
(there was way more to this one, if anyone has the timecode for the full live show i'd be very grateful. don't have time to go digging right now)

edit: didn't include the recent liveshow where he said his "confidence was a pile of ash", but that's an example of an honest statement that is so difficult to ignore and not incite discussion around, but if applied to the talk of mental health becomes problematic.

"I remember the 'thing' was leaving your room door open. It said 'hey, my metaphorical door is also open, come talk to me let's be friends'. I spent the first week playing Halo with the curtains drawn eventually realising you have to overcome your social anxiety if you want to use the fridge."

not Dan, but i found it interesting at the time nonetheless because Phil felt the need to differentiate when the question in the chat didn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmIrcOq ... =phanshows
40.50 - [Do you have tips for being socially awkward?]
Phil: "Um...I'd say it differs from people to people. A lot of people have got actual social anxiety which is something that I can't really relate to that much because I don't have it."

[jhamba]

Sorry for replying to something from a few pages back, especially since the topic has moved on.

But i was intrigued by this analysis.

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

Maybe, the reason people feel like Dan has an inability to socialize is because they go through similar feelings?

It's funny you talk about "Phil (of all people)", like Phil isn't a really social person in most of the vlogs where they appear together. He's clearly someone who is pretty confident in social situations. When I see him in vlogs, I can totally imagine myself clinging to him, because he's such a nice, social person, and would make life easier in terms of socializing with others.

I'm saying this as someone who appears very confident in most social situations, but actually does tend to have crippling (literally) social anxiety. Humans are complex creatures, and just because they're able to do well in some situations, does not mean they can do well in all situations. Dan, clearly is someone who does pretty well in a public performance, and is worse with one on one social interaction. For example, if you watch his video with connor franta, you could understand what I mean. He's someone who has mentioned his admiration for connor, but that video is awkward as hell. And, that's not because Dan was unwilling to socialize with Connor, but because he clearly felt very awkward in that situation.

Also, assuming that someone is a narcissist just because you can't comprehend why they do what they do is something that will harm you and the people around you. Just saying.

And, I don't even understand what you're trying to say with that last statement.

[swofro]

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

Very opposite viewpoint from my own, not in any way less valid though. But wouldn't a narcissistic person rather talk to others than not? Or do you mean that Dan thinks too highly of himself to interact? Personally, I've thought the lack of socializing is from inability not unwillingness, mostly stemming from (IN MY OPINION) self-esteem, anxiety, and a need for external validation wherein he wants to control interactions and thus how he is perceived by others.

I was about to say this!! People who have met dan IRL have said he's been shy and nervous, not because he isn't willing to interact with his fans, but just because that's the way he is. Even seeing vlogs and stuff you can see him clutching to his phone like security blanket. Rewatch the vlogs or dan clips from BONCAS and you can see how nervous and lost dan looked that phil had to look back and continue talking to him throughout. I honestly don't know how dan is changing but I don't think it's because he's becoming an existentialist, more that HES aware of his audience and what they want and is sometimes defensive or resentful about it. He also hasnt had a great year on his channel and is maybe aware of the pressures that are coming.

I think there could be a case made for claiming narcissism if Dan displayed any narcissistic traits. social avoidance on it's own isn't one. where it gets mistaken for it is often when the observer isn't educated about social anxiety. social anxiety isn't shyness. but shy people can be. and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event. not saying this is why you're perceiving Dan the way you do, but it isn't uncommon among fans. not understanding how tehse behaviours and emotional states correlate and thinking they contradict one another, so one must be a fabrication for comedy/brand purposes (or actual narcissism). Of course there are many reasons to avoid socialising besides anxiety, but until I see Dan display any of them I will assume he is socially anxious and not believing himself superior. he's said it in his own words, displays uncontrollable physical cues and generally lives his life in a way that gives me more than enough reason. i wouldn't diagnose him with a functional disorder, that is only something that the institution and people who place value in the institution can do/accept.

a few days ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJgNEx8 ... =phanshows
17.42 "So I was already scared of going because it was a social situation..."

quoting myself from GG because i'm too lazy to extract the timestamps and rephrase them, just a random grab bag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju1d6xhCvdY#t=0
38.55 -
"No confidence. That entire weekend in Scotland was a kind of symbol for how much confidence I have yet to have. Cause a lot of people say 'wow Dan, you do a lot of public speaking and stuff, you must have X amount of confidence'. And I think definitely, as a lot of people say, doing Youtube videos helps you with your confidence and public speaking. But I'm obviously not confident enough with myself. It shows that I'm not confident about myself...you know what I mean? If I was confident about who I was, and how I looked, and how I sound, and what I'm going to talk about then I'd be like, *claps* Hi I'm Dan! Nice to meet you!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hNLyimuZZA#t=765
12.20 - He cried himself to sleep after the above incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYoP9ZsHeNM&
10.43 - "I get very anxious about a lot of stuff. I'm a very paranoid and self-critical person."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYoP9ZsHeNM&
7.54 "I can be confident when I want to be. I can do public speaking - maybe. my knees will shake a lot. I can do a radioshow. but every now and then, i will just have random acts of inexplicable, excruciating awkwardness."
(there was way more to this one, if anyone has the timecode for the full live show i'd be very grateful. don't have time to go digging right now)

edit: didn't include the recent liveshow where he said his "confidence was a pile of ash", but that's an example of an honest statement that is so difficult to ignore and not incite discussion around, but if applied to the talk of mental health becomes problematic.

"I remember the 'thing' was leaving your room door open. It said 'hey, my metaphorical door is also open, come talk to me let's be friends'. I spent the first week playing Halo with the curtains drawn eventually realising you have to overcome your social anxiety if you want to use the fridge."

not Dan, but i found it interesting at the time nonetheless because Phil felt the need to differentiate when the question in the chat didn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmIrcOq ... =phanshows
40.50 - [Do you have tips for being socially awkward?]
Phil: "Um...I'd say it differs from people to people. A lot of people have got actual social anxiety which is something that I can't really relate to that much because I don't have it."

+1
Agree with everything merms said especially

not saying this is why you're perceiving Dan the way you do, but it isn't uncommon among fans. not understanding how tehse behaviours and emotional states correlate and thinking they contradict one another, so one must be a fabrication for comedy/brand purposes (or actual narcissism).

I can't say what I want to say articulately but some people do misunderstood social anxiety as arrogant and stuck up.

"Why won't he hang around with me? He gives great presentation the other day so it must not be because of his self confident issue whatsoever. He must think that he was better than me and think I am beneath him. What a stuck up douche."

As if putting up a mask (persona if you will) while doing your job is not a professional thing to do and it cancels out social anxiety.

and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event.

This is a great description of what social anxiety really is, thank you.

[DeadlyNova]

I can't say what I want to say articulately but some people do misunderstood social anxiety as arrogant and stuck up.

"Why won't he hang around with me? He gives great presentation the other day so it must not be because of his self confident issue whatsoever. He must think that he was better than me and think I am beneath him. What a stuck up douche."

As if putting up a mask (persona if you will) while doing your job is not a professional thing to do and it cancels out social anxiety.

and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event.

This is a great description of what social anxiety really is, thank you.

I don't have too much to contribute to this conversation, I just want to add, as someone with absolutely terrible social anxiety that's been a problem for me my entire life, I had a lot of people think I was stuck up because I wouldn't talk to them. Early on my life I would sometimes completely ignore people when they spoke to me because I was terrified to try to talk to them.

It wasn't as bad later in life, but I couldn't even order fast food until my late teens. My job is one where I have to interact with people constantly, so I tend to put on a completely different personality for it and it usually gets me through the day. But it's definitely exhausting.

[jesuisunèléve]

I'm always a little surprised when people really believe Dan has an inability to socialize, and really has to rely on Phil (out of all people) for backup. If he doesn't socialize it's because of unwillingness not inability, imo. An unwillingness that stems from what seems to me like a narcissistic type of personality.
Now, i feel like he is transitioning from an existential-crisis-having narcissist to truly living like an existentialist, because he has given some meaning to his life.

Very opposite viewpoint from my own, not in any way less valid though. But wouldn't a narcissistic person rather talk to others than not? Or do you mean that Dan thinks too highly of himself to interact? Personally, I've thought the lack of socializing is from inability not unwillingness, mostly stemming from (IN MY OPINION) self-esteem, anxiety, and a need for external validation wherein he wants to control interactions and thus how he is perceived by others.

I was about to say this!! People who have met dan IRL have said he's been shy and nervous, not because he isn't willing to interact with his fans, but just because that's the way he is. Even seeing vlogs and stuff you can see him clutching to his phone like security blanket. Rewatch the vlogs or dan clips from BONCAS and you can see how nervous and lost dan looked that phil had to look back and continue talking to him throughout. I honestly don't know how dan is changing but I don't think it's because he's becoming an existentialist, more that HES aware of his audience and what they want and is sometimes defensive or resentful about it. He also hasnt had a great year on his channel and is maybe aware of the pressures that are coming.

Deppy said in the LS that Dan was super stressed about losing his voice and the pressures the Boncas folks were putting on the two of them for performing the final act for the show. Dan had been having voice issues since Dublin and he spend hours steaming himself. Dan has said numerous times he's a perfectionist and has control issues: this situation was clearly out of his hands.

[jesuisunèléve]

And because I can no longer edit the above post:

Maybe Dan is feeling the stress of TATINOF coming to a close? I mean, it's been his life for the last 2 years and it's ending. That has to be a difficult transition, and we all have heard Dan voice his concerns about his relevance moving forward.

[MoonPride]

I can't say what I want to say articulately but some people do misunderstood social anxiety as arrogant and stuck up.

"Why won't he hang around with me? He gives great presentation the other day so it must not be because of his self confident issue whatsoever. He must think that he was better than me and think I am beneath him. What a stuck up douche."

As if putting up a mask (persona if you will) while doing your job is not a professional thing to do and it cancels out social anxiety.

and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event.

This is a great description of what social anxiety really is, thank you.

I don't have too much to contribute to this conversation, I just want to add, as someone with absolutely terrible social anxiety that's been a problem for me my entire life, I had a lot of people think I was stuck up because I wouldn't talk to them. Early on my life I would sometimes completely ignore people when they spoke to me because I was terrified to try to talk to them.

It wasn't as bad later in life, but I couldn't even order fast food until my late teens. My job is one

This is how people sum me up too, my social anxiety is so bad that I cannot hold a conversation irl and I come off looking like a stuck up douche bag. I certainly don't think I'm better than anyone but that's the impression people get. So I totally am able to sympathise with Dan and can commend him for his public speaking. Because doing that takes guts and I imagine at lot out of him mentally.

[anathema]

I can't say what I want to say articulately but some people do misunderstood social anxiety as arrogant and stuck up.

"Why won't he hang around with me? He gives great presentation the other day so it must not be because of his self confident issue whatsoever. He must think that he was better than me and think I am beneath him. What a stuck up douche."

As if putting up a mask (persona if you will) while doing your job is not a professional thing to do and it cancels out social anxiety.

and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event.

This is a great description of what social anxiety really is, thank you.

I don't have too much to contribute to this conversation, I just want to add, as someone with absolutely terrible social anxiety that's been a problem for me my entire life, I had a lot of people think I was stuck up because I wouldn't talk to them. Early on my life I would sometimes completely ignore people when they spoke to me because I was terrified to try to talk to them.

It wasn't as bad later in life, but I couldn't even order fast food until my late teens. My job is one where I have to interact with people constantly, so I tend to put on a completely different personality for it and it usually gets me through the day. But it's definitely exhausting.

. I hate when I see people say "oh, xyz couldn't be nervous talking to people because they've done performances." because it's really different. Once my sister had a teacher who was so shy (he didn't necessarily have social anxiety but I wouldn't be surprised if he did) he wouldn't even talk to people. But then, when it came to teaching in class, he was fine because he was in control of the situation, could prepare his lecture, etc. Though performing and things like that are scary for anyone, I think being good at that (or looking comfortable) =/= not having social anxiety, because it's different types of situations.

[Ticia]

[MoonPride]

Dan seriously makes me laugh. I am loving his full on Phil Trash mode right now.

[uglyamerican]

This is an interesting discussion, and I agree with many points that have been made. But the thing I want to stress is that everybody is different, and everyone has their own level of comfort in social situations. Personally, I have no trouble conversing about subjects that I find interesting or important, but horrible at general "small talk" (it actually bores me; and it shows - I tend to be awkward and/or smirk.) So I tend to hang in corners at parties, talking to people I already know (or my definition of "cool/arty" people,) and almost universally near the food / alcohol (because, yea, and good for hand props too.) The thing that annoys me are people who insist that people need to be "social" / outgoing, to the point of ostracizing people who are not gregarious / "popular." Fucking hate that. My goal is simply to be nice, and seek other genuinely nice and thoughtful people.

[corn flakes]

This is an interesting discussion, and I agree with many points that have been made. But the thing I want to stress is that everybody is different, and everyone has their own level of comfort in social situations. Personally, I have no trouble conversing about subjects that I find interesting or important, but horrible at general "small talk" (it actually bores me; and it shows - I tend to be awkward and/or smirk.) So I tend to hang in corners at parties, talking to people I already know (or my definition of "cool/arty" people,) and almost universally near the food / alcohol (because, yea, and good for hand props too.) The thing that annoys me are people who insist that people need to be "social" / outgoing, to the point of ostracizing people who are not gregarious / "popular." Fucking hate that. My goal is simply to be nice, and seek other genuinely nice and thoughtful people.

Everyone is different, I think dan feels uncomfortable in social situations where he isn't in control or has someone to relay in case he says something "wrong", it's only natural that when Phil or another close friend is there he feels better.

[Ticia]

If this is not photoshopped, I'M SHOOK (like the youngsters say).

EDIT: I went full demon. You never go full demon. That review actually exists from that Tripadvisor profile, but for the Sky Bar in Bangkok.

[kuensukki]

Apparently dan refusesed to hold Phil's hand during MG and fans aren't happy. I swear to god their extreme mood swings (aka saying choke me dad then gross away from holding his hand) are going to end up biting them in the butt

My theory: physical intamacy of any kind is for deppys private life only and something they rarely if ever will share with us. Hand holding I believe, is included in this.

[tylerrjoseph]

Apparently dan refusesed to hold Phil's hand during MG and fans aren't happy. I swear to god their extreme mood swings (aka saying choke me dad then gross away from holding his hand) are going to end up biting them in the butt

My theory: physical intamacy of any kind is for deppys private life only and something they rarely if ever will share with us. Hand holding I believe, is included in this.

i saw on twitter that it was actually phil who didnt react to her asking so dan didnt do it b/c he didnt have phils permission ect ect

[kuensukki]

If this is not photoshopped, I'M SHOOK (like the youngsters say).

Tic I'm having flashbacks to the Chinese dinner date they went to where someone else proposed and people spammed the comments saying it was phan when it was just another guy That being said, I read that comment in Phil's voice so...

tylerjoseph i just read that dan didn't grab his hand but maybe because phil wasn't prepared

[realeyesrealize]

Apparently dan refusesed to hold Phil's hand during MG and fans aren't happy. I swear to god their extreme mood swings (aka saying choke me dad then gross away from holding his hand) are going to end up biting them in the butt

My theory: physical intamacy of any kind is for deppys private life only and something they rarely if ever will share with us. Hand holding I believe, is included in this.

Apparently it was Phil who didn't want to hold Dan's hand? But your theory still stands and I agree so much with the mood swings thing, it must be very mentally tiring for them switching mindsets all the time. I hope someday they find peace.

[malday]

I enjoyed reading everyone's perspective and how you came to it.

I thought twice about using "narcissism" but i couldn't find a better word to describe it.
I didn't mean that he is over-confident, or looks down on others, but that he seems very focused on his own self, he seems contented with his worldview and his socializing or lack of socializing is probably motivated more by what interests him than by fear or anxiety.
What would be a better word for it?

I think there could be a case made for claiming narcissism if Dan displayed any narcissistic traits. social avoidance on it's own isn't one. where it gets mistaken for it is often when the observer isn't educated about social anxiety. social anxiety isn't shyness. but shy people can be. and the socially anxious can oscillate between avoiding speaking alltogether, withdrawn body language and rosacea; to appearing loud, extroverted, and fast talking (and misspeaking, actually). the later is overcompensatory behaviour (as opposed to 'shy', undercompensating behaviour) and leaves the person exhausted, emotionally drained and self-critical after the event. not saying this is why you're perceiving Dan the way you do, but it isn't uncommon among fans. not understanding how tehse behaviours and emotional states correlate and thinking they contradict one another, so one must be a fabrication for comedy/brand purposes (or actual narcissism). Of course there are many reasons to avoid socialising besides anxiety, but until I see Dan display any of them I will assume he is socially anxious and not believing himself superior. he's said it in his own words, displays uncontrollable physical cues and generally lives his life in a way that gives me more than enough reason. i wouldn't diagnose him with a functional disorder, that is only something that the institution and people who place value in the institution can do/accept.

I have anxiety and panic disorder, and the external stimulus from social situations causes my brain to react extremely and burnout easily.
I know first hand about blushing, freezing, meltdowns, nervous ticks, being loud and playing the clown to mask it and divert attention.
I recognized such cues in Dan's behavior. But to me he seems to cope with social anxiety well enough for it not to be the main reason he is not socializing.


And what i meant by my last sentence was that instead of worrying and looking for external validation to give his life meaning he is accepting the meaning is whatever makes him happy.

P.S. sorry if my sentences don't make sense, my english is rusty.

[alittledizzy]

Apparently it was Phil who didn't want to hold Dan's hand? But your theory still stands and I agree so much with the mood swings thing, it must be very mentally tiring for them switching mindsets all the time. I hope someday they find peace.

I don't think it's 'mood swings' so much as them defaulting to established behavior when a fan catches them off guard with a request clearly meant to provoke some kind of physical contact between them. They have no time to stop and discuss how things look when someone is literally right in front of them, they go the safest route. (And yeah, it ends up looking awkward as fuck, but I still can't blame them for it.)