Dan & Phil Part 58: Come in my lady door

[sugar]

wow...a lot has happened in the past day. i've spent hours just catching up.

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

I'm not at all saying that the n-word isn't bad or that Pdp can say it because people in some countries still use it. I already clarified in my last post that my whole point is about hypocrisy in society and by extension, within the Phandom. I'm pointing out that there are different standarts applied to different issues and words based on the culture/country/time period. I'm saying that people in society "caring" about a certain issue but not about a similar one almost seems manifactured and seems to only occur when a certain oppressed group finally starts rebelling against their oppressors to the point where the oppressors just want to shut them up and that's why they stop using a certain slur. Not out of care for the affected. They also keep using other harmful words directed at demographics that aren't in the position to speak up against it yet. This is hypocrisy, this is what I'm talking about. Misogyny is just an example I'm using. The way this relates to D&P being friends with Felix is that I've seen a lot of people considering whether their should unstan D&P just because they associate with a racist but Dan himself saying a misogynistic slur seems to be not that big of a deal for a lot of people for some reason? So what if he said it as a joke? It's still sexist. Anyways, this a very clear example of hypocrisy within the Phandom.

Also, I personally think it's okay to derail conversations to talk about different issues. The whole discussion of racism is still there, right? I'm now just turning it into a discussion of double standarts. And I actually agree that "hoe" isn't as bad as the n-word, but again, Dan saying that word was just an example. I could just as easily talk about his (actually their) use of ableist language as well. Most of the things you said about the history of the n-word can be said as well about the word "stupid" and the historical oppression of disabled people. To this day, disabled children get murdered by their parents (as a "mercy" killing) and get praised in the media for it. If someone rapes a disabled person in court they get sued as if they have raped an animal because disabled people are not seen as human. In the US disabled people are not legally allowed to marry one another. And so on. I'll link to that post again, in case you didn't read it, if you're interested in other major hardships the disabled community faces.

http://thediscourseblogs.tumblr.com/pos ... tual-thing

My whole point is this - if you are outraged/very dissapointed by D&P merely associating with a racist, you should feel the same way about D&P doing other problematic things, like themselves using the word "stupid". Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. Just because racist slurs are widely recognized and ableist ones are not does not make it okay to excuse one and not the other. If you care about social justice you should care about intersectionality as well

Also, I'm sorry but it's pretty late where I live and I have to go to bed. I'll probably respond to other people tomorrow.

Genuine question: why would stupid be ableist? I also think there's a difference between being friends with someone using a slur and generally using a slur you know is one and saying something that you never considered to be a slur. Bc honestly I haven't heard of stupid being a slur. Just that it's rude to say, which goes for a lot of words people use.

Sorry if this is weirdly formatted, i'm on mobile and i will sleep now

I already said this in a previous post but it's exactly the same as the r-word. Stupid used to be a diagnosis and now is being used as an insult/slur. Any intelligence-shaming word is ableist because it obviously demeans people with cognitive disabilities, although not all are slurs, just the ones with oppressive history behind them. I, too had never heard of stupid being a slur until last year. But as someone said earlier, google is free and even if you come from a racist country you can educate yourself about the n-word and not use it, same thing with any ableist slur. Granted, you wouldn't really need google to know that the n-word is a slur because in most places it is widely recognized as such, whereas ableist slurs are not, because nobody talks about ableism, ever. A disabled rights activist said that you can't speak fluent English without using ableist language, so I understand that a lot of people would be reluctant to change the entire way they speak but I do think that it is necessary and that we as a society should call out ableism whenever we see it. The reason why almost nobody knows that stupid and a bunch of other words used to be diagnoses is because we never talk about ableism.

I'm also going to bed now.

I also wanted to add, (I guess this sounds defensive) that I was not at all uncomfortable with the conversation about racism. I fucking loved it and I thought it was super interesting!

tbh i don't believe that even you think that 'stupid' is "exactly the same as the r word" seeing as you said stupid multiple times in your post and continue to refer to the other as 'the r word'. i think that people do know that using that slur is wrong which is why they call it 'the r word'. the thing people i think don't know is the origin of stupid so i don't think people using it can be seen as the same.

also, i'm a white female-aligned person and i don't see hoe even remotely close to as offensive as the n word.

nihilist-toothpaste you have a way with words and i think everything you say is spot on.

moving on to the video:

i really enjoyed it! immediately was a little bothered about the lights but it didn't affect my enjoyment of the video. these are the kind of games i wish they'd play more often in favor of all the google games and stuff that i consider games and not really gaming. and i'm not a gamer. i can't afford to play video games. i don't watch any other gaming channels. i know people think that the majority of the phandom don't want those kind of games but i think people will literally watch anything if it's dan and phil interacting with each other so i don't see it as a problem.

i do like their decorations. i really liked the game,it did spook me more like....anticipation. just a general sense of creepiness and elevated heartrate. i like stuff like that and i enjoyed this. i'm excited for the rest of spooky week. i wish i had more to say but typing with one hand from my arm surgery is kind of exhausting and tedious.

edit: top of the page...sorry.

ALSO: completely forgot to mention but their effort to refer to the character with gender-neutral pronouns really warmed me from the inside out. a lot of people would just say 'he' and get on with it but they (specifically dan) didn't and it stuck out to me nd i liked that.

[sonicgreen]

Spooky Week!
I'm usually the one jumping at every loud noise but just the design and mechanics of the game didn't scare me at all? Maybe the very end bit, but the boys were so much louder than the game I didn't get into it too much.
One thing that really bugged me was the editing? Their audio was much louder than the game, and all the face close-ups were more distracting than usual? (This could be because it was a dark game and they had full lights on?) I felt like I kept missing bits because of really sudden jump-cuts. I am taking into account that this was a 30 minute video, so condensing content had to happen. It just felt a bit too "chatty" and distracing for me. Overall pretty fun, most pumped for the Halloween baking video! Hope everyone had a nice Wednesday!

[Reizam]

I liked the video! I thought the game was an odd combination of cute and creepy. I didn't find it "scary" per say, but I did yell at the screen a few times when they were close to getting caught. I think the aspect of getting chased by someone who moves faster than you to be tense, especially if you can't defend yourself. I actually didn't notice the lights were on until I saw it pointed out on here.

As for my favourite scariest game they've played, I have to agree with most people about Silent Hill PT. I don't get impressed if a game just relies on a ton of jumpscares (I find them more startling than scary), but with PT it was a combination of the jumpscares plus horrifying imagery plus the anticipation of knowing you'll find even more horrifying imagery as you continue to pass through the same hallway over and over again. These are also the reasons why Outlast 2 is a close second for me (oddly enough the first Outlast didn't freak me out as much).

[relatablemood]

Only came to say that Catallena's roast of troll user had me in fits of laughter (is the first gif of an actress from the show Fight My Way? If not, she looks a lot like her). I can practically smell the desperation to divert attention away from the issue of racism - calling 'stupid' a slur and comparing it to the n word, really?!

If anything good came out of this, it's that a lot of people who follow deppy might be casual fans of pdp, as I was, and so became aware of the whole thing.

And also comment-spamming has worked in the case of, say, simply-kenna but I understand it's distasteful. Hopefully Dan and *Phil* (I highlight because does anyone know how Phil thinks of all of this? Besides attending that party obvs) at least acknowledge the issue on their own, but in a way that isn't all neutral and "oh I'll speak to him".

I am still lurking also, like I said I would be! Gotta get them timestamps you know O.o I want to apologise again to anyone who might recognise my username - esp the mods and people I had arguments with. I promise to post only with respect and when I'm in the best mental state, but this is really just a one off for now, especially if me posting causes even more negativity here.

It's just sad to see so much infighting here, even without the sock puppets popping up. People have to band together in these times to raise awareness and to support each other.

So just wanted to say that and also: do you think they'll continue Little Nightmares? It gets a little frustrating sometimes when they start games that are meant to be played in a series like Outlast or other games I'm forgetting about, and then drop it like it's a flash game or something. I want to see them react to the pair of cooks (twins?).

To everyone hurt by how Dan and Phil remain friends with pdp, and even just pdp himself if you were a fan or something like that, I hope you expose yourself to a lot of positivity in the next couple of weeks.

EDit: ugh, crap, I feel sick for posting now. Just wanna say again that this is a one off and I am absolutely not back to make drama, esp when everyone is feeling so low at the current situation. Sorry to all (and I mean all) that I was rude to in the past.

[pastelspectre]

Wow someone here has too many email adresses and too much time on their hands...

I know this is a Dan & Phil forum but since there isn't much new to talk about - PDP just uploaded a collab with Jacksepticeye. If anyone is involved in his fandom I'd love to hear how people there are reacting.

hello i am an extremely active member of jackaboy's community and i'd just like to say i'm fine with it, for me personally. i know jack well enough and know his personality well enough to know that he doesn't support or condone what Felix does. Jack is an incredibly caring and thoughtful person and i know he would never say or support those types of things. i don't think he is supporting what felix did or said by hanging out with him. i think they just hang out. 'cause they're friends. i dunno. i'm bad at explaining myself. but from what i have seen in the jacksepticeye tag, no one is freaking out, from what i see.

i hope i explained myself well.. i don't want to make jack sound like a bad person; that's the last thing i want to do since i love him dearly

but, erm. the video! little nightmares. it was entertaining. very spooky and intense. i was on the edge of my seat constantly haha. i already saw jack's full playthrough but i didn't mind watching dip and dot play it! i liked it a lot.

[imgroundedagain]

Helllooo! First time poster because I've never felt the need to join a conversation before but all the pewdiepie stuff has gotten far out of hand.

First off, it is absolutely not our place to say who Dan and Phil should or should not associate with. We are mere fans, watching them live through what little information they choose to share with us. To believe that a stranger has the liberty to decide who a person befriends is preposterous.

That being said, I understand why people are upset with Felix. The word he used in his liveshow has a strong connotation, and he has said himself that his actions were inexcusable. Whether you choose to forgive him or not has nothing to do with Dan and Phil. They had been friends with him before the fact, it would be absurd to abandon a friend because of a mistake they show remorse for.

To the people who are angry with Dan and Phil for their continued support of Felix: Keep in mind that we do not know how what position they take on the situation. It's something that has no place being discussed with their fanbase, and they know that. The only insight we have been given is that Dan had intentions of speaking to Felix about his words, we don't even have way of knowing if that conversation indeed took place. A birthday party is hardly the place for such a topic.

And might I mention that they had been present to celebrate Marzia's birthday, not Felix's.

If you have an adverse reaction to how Dan and Phil live their life, maybe you shouldn't be watching Dan and Phil.

[alch]

I didn't really find the new video scary, and as I've said, I'm super easily scared. I don't know, it just didn't seem creepy, which is what really gets me.

The most terrifying ones I've seen from spooky weeks were silent hills and outcast. those messed me up, man

[captainspacecoat]

If you have an adverse reaction to how Dan and Phil live their life, maybe you shouldn't be watching Dan and Phil.

I hate the whole idea of "if you don't like it, unsubscribe". Because there is so much about Dan and Phil that I love - I think that they have often demonstrated compassion and empathy, and intelligence, and I think they have amazing chemistry. I loved Dan's video about mental health, and think it was a great example of the good that he and Phil are able to do with their platform. Dan and Phil, the content they create and the community they inspire, have been so important to me for going on five years now. This Felix thing doesn't negate any of that.

But it is something that crossed a line for me, and as a dedicated viewer of Dan and Phil I (and others who feel the same as me) are entitled to question their motives. We are allowed to be critical. None of this criticism is coming from a place of hatred for Dan and Phil. In fact, I'd wager it's mostly coming from a place of love. A desire for two people who we've been rooting for to do better. I think it's so dangerous to shut down healthy criticism of two very wealthy and powerful people. It's okay to discuss these things, it's okay to recognise when someone you admire does something upsetting, it's okay to want them to be better than that. It's okay to admit to yourself that people you admire fucked up, and that maybe you misjudged them. I'm so appreciative of the discussion on here over the past few days, it's helped me to sort out my feelings and express how upset this has made me to other people who feel the same way. No one's forcing anyone to agree with us, we're just taking advantage of the purpose of this platform - a space to respectfully talk about Dan and Phil and the content they create and the things that they do. In this instance, they did something that has been perceived badly by a lot of people. This is the place to talk about it.

In other news, I watched the Spooky Week video and actually enjoyed it. I get scared quite easily, and the concept of something creepy constantly chasing you was enough to make me scared, or at least to feel suspenseful. If they continue to play games like that I think Spooky Week will be quite good, but it'll probably take me some time to fully be able to immerse myself in their content given the wider context of this whole Felix thing.

[dailybooth]

So just wanted to say that and also: do you think they'll continue Little Nightmares? It gets a little frustrating sometimes when they start games that are meant to be played in a series like Outlast or other games I'm forgetting about, and then drop it like it's a flash game or something. I want to see them react to the pair of cooks (twins?).

I don't see them continuing it as series, just because of how abysmal they are at series, bless their hearts. Tbh, as someone who knows zero about this game (or any games, for that matter), the video felt pretty opened-and-closed to me? Like at the end I thought "oh the character escaped that freaky house, cool" and didn't expect or need anything more from the playthrough.

Tho if they really wanted to revisist it sometime, I would be totally fine with that. I enjoyed the video a lot and the game seemed really interesting.

Also - back

[sugar]

i'm rewatching already so i've decided to do a little list of all the moments i liked/wanted to comment on in this video that i completely forgot in my last post.
now realizing maybe people would've like timestamps...oops. next time.

• dan saying the creepy figure is phil's mum and then "hey kath". i always love that familiarity

• honey i shrunk the kids IS a movie....isn't it? what are you talking about phil?

• phil: ooh, crack! should i go down in through here?
  dan: never say that again
  is dan hearing it in the drugs way or the dirty way? i can't tell since both came to mind for me.

• phil's face and attempt to fix it when he realizes what he's implying by saying they're climbing up his third leg...too funny

• dan's pronunciation of guillotine...is that the accepted pronunciation in the uk? hearing him say it twice just really...rubbed me in a pet peeve kind of way but seeing as phil didn't comment i must assume that a lot of people say it that way?

• random thought but dan's jumper really looks SO soft and phil saying it was like a teddy bear sees even cuter now.

• seems like phil gave up and let dan control for the last 10 minutes of the video. i don't know how i feel about it.
  just an observation.

• i love dan using "jesus wept" for some reason. is this his new "shitting down my (insert body part here)"?

[obsessivelymoody]

If you have an adverse reaction to how Dan and Phil live their life, maybe you shouldn't be watching Dan and Phil.

I hate the whole idea of "if you don't like it, unsubscribe". Because there is so much about Dan and Phil that I love - I think that they have often demonstrated compassion and empathy, and intelligence, and I think they have amazing chemistry. I loved Dan's video about mental health, and think it was a great example of the good that he and Phil are able to do with their platform. Dan and Phil, the content they create and the community they inspire, have been so important to me for going on five years now. This Felix thing doesn't negate any of that.

But it is something that crossed a line for me, and as a dedicated viewer of Dan and Phil I (and others who feel the same as me) are entitled to question their motives. We are allowed to be critical. None of this criticism is coming from a place of hatred for Dan and Phil. In fact, I'd wager it's mostly coming from a place of love. A desire for two people who we've been rooting for to do better. I think it's so dangerous to shut down healthy criticism of two very wealthy and powerful people. It's okay to discuss these things, it's okay to recognise when someone you admire does something upsetting, it's okay to want them to be better than that. It's okay to admit to yourself that people you admire fucked up, and that maybe you misjudged them. I'm so appreciative of the discussion on here over the past few days, it's helped me to sort out my feelings and express how upset this has made me to other people who feel the same way. No one's forcing anyone to agree with us, we're just taking advantage of the purpose of this platform - a space to respectfully talk about Dan and Phil and the content they create and the things that they do. In this instance, they did something that has been perceived badly by a lot of people. This is the place to talk about it.

In other news, I watched the Spooky Week video and actually enjoyed it. I get scared quite easily, and the concept of something creepy constantly chasing you was enough to make me scared, or at least to feel suspenseful. If they continue to play games like that I think Spooky Week will be quite good, but it'll probably take me some time to fully be able to immerse myself in their content given the wider context of this whole Felix thing.

I couldn't agree more. I think this is important to consider and read as people's opinions continue to clash and often in turn create arguments.

[Ilovethemohyesido]

Silent Hill and Outlast was terrifying! I didn't remember that Phil actually played Outlast, I thought only Dan did it.

I liked how in the video they started with the whole "let's switch back and forth" one life each, and then it went as usual Dan playing the whole game.

Is Halloween baking after Spooky Games or in the middle of it?

[Ilovethemohyesido]

• phil's face and attempt to fix it when he realizes what he's implying by saying they're climbing up his third leg...too funny

• random thought but dan's jumper really looks SO soft and phil saying it was like a teddy bear sees even cuter now.

When did he say the third leg thing? I have to see that video again.

And the jumper, after two LS, I finally could see it properly, it looks so confy!!!

[alch]

Silent Hill and Outlast was terrifying! I didn't remember that Phil actually played Outlast, I thought only Dan did it.

During spooky week 2016 they played Outlast 2 together

[parallel]

ALSO: completely forgot to mention but their effort to refer to the character with gender-neutral pronouns really warmed me from the inside out. a lot of people would just say 'he' and get on with it but they (specifically dan) didn't and it stuck out to me nd i liked that.

I also noticed that! It was really nice that they went out of their way to do that

[sunshinias]

I am still lurking also, like I said I would be! Gotta get them timestamps you know O.o I want to apologise again to anyone who might recognise my username - esp the mods and people I had arguments with. I promise to post only with respect and when I'm in the best mental state, but this is really just a one off for now, especially if me posting causes even more negativity here.

EDit: ugh, crap, I feel sick for posting now. Just wanna say again that this is a one off and I am absolutely not back to make drama, esp when everyone is feeling so low at the current situation. Sorry to all (and I mean all) that I was rude to in the past.

Don't feel bad about posting! This is a discussion board and I, for one, appreciate the different points of view, as long as we don't drag out an argument after it's clear both sides aren't going to change their opinion.

[sugar]

• phil's face and attempt to fix it when he realizes what he's implying by saying they're climbing up his third leg...too funny

• random thought but dan's jumper really looks SO soft and phil saying it was like a teddy bear sees even cuter now.

When did he say the third leg thing? I have to see that video again.

And the jumper, after two LS, I finally could see it properly, it looks so confy!!!

go to around 9:53 for the third leg comment!

[goldenmermaid]

• dan's pronunciation of guillotine...is that the accepted pronunciation in the uk? hearing him say it twice just really...rubbed me in a pet peeve kind of way but seeing as phil didn't comment i must assume that a lot of people say it that way?

haha that's how we say guillotine here (probably butchering the french) ... how do you pronounce it??

[alch]

haha that's how we say guillotine here (probably butchering the french) ... how do you pronounce it??

everyone I know says it like "gee-oh-teen"

[scientia]

haha that's how we say guillotine here (probably butchering the french) ... how do you pronounce it??

everyone I know says it like "gee-oh-teen"

^ basically the French pronunciation

[parallel]

haha that's how we say guillotine here (probably butchering the french) ... how do you pronounce it??

everyone I know says it like "gee-oh-teen"

That's interesting. I've never heard it pronounced any way other than "gill-oh-teen". I wonder why Americans are more faithful to the French pronunciation?

(does this need to be put in a spoiler for off-topic? feel free to do so if you think so, mods. idk myself lol)

[autumnhearth]

I found the secret for me to make it through Spooky Week: knitting with the lights on. From just listening and glancing up from my knitting, that game seemed pretty darn cute and only mildly creepy. Yeah, I’m a wuss.

Love the decorations this year, very classy. It was nice to see how glossy and soft Dan’s jumper was. I liked when they were climbing the book shelves and were very whispery.

awsugar I think Dan said it was like the sequel to ‘Honey I Shrunk the Kids’ and Phil said that’s ‘Honey I Blew Up the Kid’ (as in he was just telling Dan the sequel already exists and this is what it was called).

[VengefulBlue]

up here in vermont, i hear both gill-oh-teen and gee-uh-teen. it seems like flatlanders (people who moved here within a generation or two) say 'gill', while third generation+ vermonters say 'gee'. but we're right below quebec, so maybe that has some effect?

(haven't watched the vid yet since it's dark and i'm a scaredy cat, but i had to chime in on this bc dialectic variations are so interesting)

edit: also if phil said the sequel to 'honey i shrunk the kid's is 'honey i blew up the kid', i'm pretty sure he's wrong. i definitely remember watching 'honey we shrunk ourselves', tho maybe it's a trilogy??

[autumnhearth]

Nope, Phil’s right. ‘Honey We Shrunk Ourselves’ was the third one.

[Ewok]

haha that's how we say guillotine here (probably butchering the french) ... how do you pronounce it??

everyone I know says it like "gee-oh-teen"

That's interesting. I've never heard it pronounced any way other than "gill-oh-teen". I wonder why Americans are more faithful to the French pronunciation?

(does this need to be put in a spoiler for off-topic? feel free to do so if you think so, mods. idk myself lol)

That's so funny I'm not the only one who noticed this. It made me do a double take when Dan said it, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say Gill-o-teen
I'm in California and we say Gee-o-teen. Or at least that's the only way I've ever heard anyone say it. Haha