Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

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Ablissa
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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by Ablissa » Thu May 02, 2019 9:32 am

I'm... I have no words. I never thought I would see people on this forum (other than Stakhanov, who obviously already has) justifying the fact that literal children are being subjected to sexual jokes without their consent.

- He joined the group chat and was told their ages.
- He still joked about sex in their presence.
- They expressed discomfort, which did not stop him.
- He knew they were minors, and yet, he still talked about angry sex with Dan, diaper play, etc.
- He's 33. They're 11-16. He could be their father.
- It's okay to want more friends in fandom. It's decidedly better to stick to your own age group, for a variety of reasons. For me, the age gap alone would be enough reason. I don't want to have friends who are 11 or 14, because I'm not 11 or 14
- If he did disclose his age prior to joining the group chat (he claims he did, I don't know), AND behaved appropriately, it would not have bothered anyone. And if it did still bother the minors, they would be allowed to not want a 33 year old in their space.
- Imagine a scenario where you, the adult, have a child, and a person twice their age joins them at a convention or something, only to talk to them about sex despite the child's discomfort. Would that be okay with you?

The argument that the person who tweeted was focused on his age is irrelevant. I'm very much an adult and not the least bit offended. To this person, this minor, it was relevant, because guess what, an adult was talking to them about sex without their consent. WHY are we blaming victims here? I thought this forum was a safe space, I really did.

Also. You are missing the point.
In my initial post about Stakhanov, I made it clear that his forum conduct (which had been roughly the same since I joined this forum 3 years ago) had always been wrong. Please read my quote and stop saying that he is only being blamed for off-site things when he's NOT.
Ablissa wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:05 am
First things first: I could go and pull up receipts - forum quotes - of him defending homophobia, racism, and a variety of other issues. This he will of course deny, because he likes to redirect, but if you're a long time poster here, you will know I am right. Just go through his post history if you're bored enough, I'm honestly not - but I will if it comes to it and people demand it.
The receipts are there and none of this is made up. This isn't me being biased. I feel like I can speak for ~95% of users of this forum when I say that Stakhanov has stated some very problematic things in the past, often hurting people who are affected by the issues of which he speaks so freely.

He has also, on numerous occasions, belittled other users for having different opinions. I called him out for 'mansplaining' and it really is something he is guilty of. He takes on a patronizing voice, all the while being falsely polite so as to avoid being banned. I know for a fact that some people have felt REALLY bad after receiving one of his responses. He says things that are triggering to people who have to deal with, for example, homophobia in their daily lives.
It's worth noting that he tends to continue arguing until the other poster gives up - here's an example off the top of my head: viewtopic.php?p=103851#p103851. This is the type of thing other users have to deal with whenever engaging in conversation with him.

His forum attitude alone is enough to make people upset.

(...)

Again, if this is insufficient proof that no one is being unjustly bullied here, I'm happy to go and really dig up the posts in question. However I hope that for most people, this will explain why some of us choose to reply to Stakhanov and don't let him off easy when he continues to behave in the same way he always had.

Lastly... I'm sure that Stakhanov can be a nice person and may very well be nice in real life. I don't intend this to be a personal attack. Please treat it as a response to the posts I quoted.
Again. The issue with Stakhanov is more than just him being inappropriate with minors.
Which doesn't make me any less baffled as to how we can victim blame literal kids as opposed to the very much sound-of-mind adult. The adult is always the one held accountable. This isn't me, this is the law.



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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by black_rat » Thu May 02, 2019 9:45 am

glitterintheair wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:30 am
Yes, I am uncomfortable.

Knowing that someone on this forum - who claims that the Phandom is mostly a young and immature fanbase that fetishize Dan and Phil - engaged with minors by making sexual comments about Dan even after they disclosed their age and, on top of that, he doesn't even think that he did something wrong... yeah, it makes me uncomfortable.
Knowing that people might think that this forum would welcome people who act like that and that everyone might agree with that behavior makes me uncomfortable.
Knowing that there's people who defend such behavior and are victim blaming makes me uncomfortable. And it concerns me.
As I said, it is your right to feel uncomfortable. You are allowed to feel anyway you want to feel about this situation. But people are not allowed to expect any action from the moderator team. And people are not allowed to ignore forum rules because they feel uncomfortable. So I wonder what people want out of this situation, in discussing it here. Because all I am seeing is people bullying someone until they leave the platform, and the moderators seem to be fine with it.

I feel uncomfortable as well. I feel uncomfortable if moderators misuse their power. I feel uncomfortable if moderators treat some users differently than others. And I am allowed to feel this way. I am even allowed to complain to the moderators about this, as this is against their rules. Just not sure how much that actually brings me.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by liola » Thu May 02, 2019 9:50 am

black_rat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:45 am
glitterintheair wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:30 am
Yes, I am uncomfortable.

Knowing that someone on this forum - who claims that the Phandom is mostly a young and immature fanbase that fetishize Dan and Phil - engaged with minors by making sexual comments about Dan even after they disclosed their age and, on top of that, he doesn't even think that he did something wrong... yeah, it makes me uncomfortable.
Knowing that people might think that this forum would welcome people who act like that and that everyone might agree with that behavior makes me uncomfortable.
Knowing that there's people who defend such behavior and are victim blaming makes me uncomfortable. And it concerns me.
As I said, it is your right to feel uncomfortable. You are allowed to feel anyway you want to feel about this situation. But people are not allowed to expect any action from the moderator team. And people are not allowed to ignore forum rules because they feel uncomfortable. So I wonder what people want out of this situation, in discussing it here. Because all I am seeing is people bullying someone until they leave the platform, and the moderators seem to be fine with it.

I feel uncomfortable as well. I feel uncomfortable if moderators misuse their power. I feel uncomfortable if moderators treat some users differently than others. And I am allowed to feel this way. I am even allowed to complain to the moderators about this, as this is against their rules. Just not sure how much that actually brings me.
This is really unfair, to the users and to the moderators as well. Don't you think people have raised bad feelings about the users before? Don't you think his posts have been labeled as trolling by users multiple times, and his response was always "you are calling me a troll but I'm not, this is me explaining things and you just don't understand". Users AND moderators have explained to him why the way he expresses himself ON the forum and ON forum instances make him feel like a troll, and the response has been fair, If it was really a matter of attacking him and everyone agreed on it, we wouldn't even be having a discussion right now.

You're right that there's the rule of moderators not policing off forum behaviors, but I hope you realize that this is a matter slightly more delicate than a disagreement on a video or a shipping matter. Also, as a extensive user of the forum, and someone whose posts have been used before by outsiders to prove that HIS opinions is the forum's opinion, I feel like - again - pointing out that it's something a lot of us disagree with can only benefit the conversation.
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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by Ablissa » Thu May 02, 2019 9:53 am

black_rat wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:45 am
I feel uncomfortable as well. I feel uncomfortable if moderators misuse their power. I feel uncomfortable if moderators treat some users differently than others. And I am allowed to feel this way. I am even allowed to complain to the moderators about this, as this is against their rules. Just not sure how much that actually brings me.
Actually, the moderators are being extremely unbiased here. If they went by what the users want, Stakhanov would have earned himself a ban based on trolling, attacking people and addressing them in a condescending manner in endless, pointless discussions. He would have been banned long ago. He has made numerous users feel bad, upset, uncomfortable, angry - and that was all before this whole twitter situation.

You are still allowed to feel uncomfortable, of course, and we all need to respect that. I just want to clarify that the mods are being really, really good on this forum. You can disagree with the rest if you so wish.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by black_rat » Thu May 02, 2019 10:05 am

Ablissa wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:32 am

Also. You are missing the point.
In my initial post about Stakhanov, I made it clear that his forum conduct (which had been roughly the same since I joined this forum 3 years ago) had always been wrong. Please read my quote and stop saying that he is only being blamed for off-site things when he's NOT.
If his forum conduct is wrong, then there are steps the moderator team can (and I think has) taken. Also you are not the authority on judging if what he says or does is wrong.
Ablissa wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:32 am
The adult is always the one held accountable. This isn't me, this is the law.


Forum rules say that he cannot be held accountable for this incident from twitter. The law is carried out in court or where ever, not here.
Ablissa wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:32 am
His forum attitude alone is enough to make people upset.
Yeah, people get upset about a lot of things. That's fine. If there is a rule that has been broken, then something can be done about it. If there hasn't been, then you have to deal with feeling upset.
Ablissa wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:53 am
Actually, the moderators are being extremely unbiased here. If they went by what the users want, Stakhanov would have earned himself a ban based on trolling, attacking people and addressing them in a condescending manner in endless, pointless discussions. He would have been banned long ago. He has made numerous users feel bad, upset, uncomfortable, angry - and that was all before this whole twitter situation.
But that is not what unbiased means. Moderators should follow their own rules and not what is a popular opinion. If as you say what he has done can be classified as trolling, then the moderaters ignored it. That would also not be good.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by jestbee » Thu May 02, 2019 10:16 am

Would you prefer moderators silence users' concerns around someone's inappropriate behaviour towards children? That they somehow ban people from discussing their discomfort at Stakhanov's actions in this situation, but also his behaviour across the forum in general?

Because that's what you're suggesting.

I haven't posted on the forum often but I've been reading the main thread for a long time and every instance of the conversation getting derailed, or stuck, or close to trolling in nature has been by him. He often refuses to listen to other viewpoints, defends atrocious behaviour including racism and homophobic language, and is so condescending that I'm surprised it's taken this long for him to get a warning.

I can only assume that what you attribute as "stubborn" is actually a delight in disagreeing, in negative attention, and in feeling like he is somehow better/smarter/above everyone because he doesn't ship dnp and is somehow the only one that knows what's going on in any given situation. That everyone else is wrong.

It makes people who come here not want to be here, I myself had to take a giant step back because his argumentative posts spiked my anxiety. I know I'm not the only one.

The forum is viewed in a negative light, and people don't use it, because his posts have been held up as the view of the whole place on multiple occasions and people don't want to be somewhere where people think as he does.

The situation with the private messaging off-site is disgusting, and people have a right to express their opinions on that, and not be silenced. (Just as you are allowed to defend that behaviour as you obviously wish to do)
But please dont be mistaken, this isn't about one incident, it isn't just a minor thing where people are jumping all over him for mere dislike or 'bullying'.

It's a long standing issue, a pattern of behaviour, and I think people are at the point where they've had enough!

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by freesocks » Thu May 02, 2019 10:40 am

I was going to stay out of this because I don’t post here, but I have seen people say multiple times that they are concerned by the reputation this person gives the forum and so I am going to give my opinion as someone who doesn’t have history with the people here. I have been following this issue because, as an adult, I am concerned about minors in fandom spaces and am think adults have a greater responsibility than what I have seen expressed from anyone else here, which is one of the reasons I have a big problem with the way this situation is being handled. I have personally seen other users (one who is even an admin) be accused of minors on Tumblr of making them uncomfortable, which, if the protection of minors is of utmost importance to users here, should raise a red flag and, if the reputation of the forum is a concern the fact that one of these people is an admin and has access to information required to register, etc, should at the very least be discussed in the same manner as this is being discussed, yet I have never seen that. In the case of another person who at least used to be a frequent poster here, I even saw it framed as bullying when minors and adults who were concerned expressed that on Tumblr. It seems to me that the rules here are selectively enforced, not only in the case of concern over safety of minors, but also in terms of general etiquette. The mod team is comfortable scolding this one user for being condescending, but multiple users have complained over time about how others speak to him and that it seems like bullying and it makes them uncomfortable, yet they are never warned. I understand finding things someone does morally repugnant and not wanting to interact with them, but the moderators should be addressing things in an objective way (sticking to the rules), rather than a subjective way (allowing certain behaviors because they think they are justified by the previous actions of the person they are directed at - two wrongs don’t make a right). The uneven application of the rules makes is something I find to be very concerning, especially if minors are involved (and who this concern is truly about), who rely on us, as adults, to have better judgement than them at times. They are more likely to trust moderators and admins as figures of authority and if the moderators present the idea that this forum is a space that goes out of their way to be safe for minors when in reality it is only concerned about the safety of minors around one specific user, that to me is an issue. If you are going to take the concerns of all minors seriously, should we start threads on these other accusations against other users that were made on Tumblr? It seems like a witch hunt to me, but since I’m not a regular user here, I’m not that invested. My main concern and reason for writing this is that it seems pretty clear to me that their is a certain in-group here that is exempt from the same regulation as others, yet I don’t see that acknowledged and I think it’s misleading that the idea continues to be pushed that nepotism isn’t playing a role here and everyone is just filled with altruistic concern.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by liola » Thu May 02, 2019 11:29 am

I hope you realize that there's a difference between someone making sexual jokes around minors knowingly, and ignoring their concern and not understanding why it makes them uncomfortable, and people being uncomfortable with people writing smut fabrication. Because that is mostly what we're talking about. If someone reads my stuff, and then lately says it makes them uncomfortable because they're a minor, all I can say is that I tagged it as explicit and mature and not for minors, and that's all I can do. If a minor follows and engages with an adult without disclosing their age, how can someone know? But when the age is disclosed, the adult has to be the one pulling back. This didn't happen in the case of Stakhanov.

I understand that you're calling for fairness, but there's also a difference between being uncomfortable with adults in fandom spaces, which is the accusations to users and admin that you're talking about, and being uncomfortable with an adult knowingly engaging with minors and ignoring their discomfort when it comes to sexual jokes.
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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by fancybum » Thu May 02, 2019 11:39 am

Lol like what is this convo even turning into? That guy hasn't been banned, he's completely free to keep posting about D&P in the main thread and anything else in any other thread. This thread only exists to keep him from derailing, yet again, the main thread with another one of his exhaustive lists of complaints and deflections. Literally all that had to happen was for him to acknowledge 'you know what, I didn't intend to be creepy, but I can see how it could have made other people uncomfortable', and I think people would have chilled out a bit (not to say people will like him, because he's still who he is, but I doubt it would have blown up to *gestures vaguely* all this). He didn't have to acknowledge he was being a creep, just accept literally any amount of personal responsibility for an unfortunate at best (and easily avoidable with a bit of common sense) interaction with minors, as an adult who should know what the word inappropriate means in the relevant contexts and avoid being it around strangers who also have a high chance of being children (what with being in this fandom and him knowing most are minors). The fact that he not only doesn't see anything wrong with, but defends it with a tangent about differing sex education between countries (??) is extremely concerning. It's wild. There's no sitewide conspiracy to dislike him, I think most people (if not all) here and elsewhere who dislike him came to that conclusion all on their own (I personally came to it all the way back on gg). How nice that there are people who haven't come to that conclusion, that's great for everybody. Differing opinions! And potential adults he can befriend instead of children.
freesocks wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:40 am
I have personally seen other users (one who is even an admin) be accused of minors on Tumblr of making them uncomfortable, which, if the protection of minors is of utmost importance to users here, should raise a red flag and, if the reputation of the forum is a concern the fact that one of these people is an admin and has access to information required to register, etc, should at the very least be discussed in the same manner as this is being discussed, yet I have never seen that. In the case of another person who at least used to be a frequent poster here, I even saw it framed as bullying when minors and adults who were concerned expressed that on Tumblr.
Tumblr doesn't have a private group chat capability and blocking is free. The issue isn't simply 'adults doing things minors don't like in a general sense', the issue is 'one specific grown adult joining a group chat full of children and knowingly making them uncomfortable more than once and then vehemently refusing to understand why people think that's concerning because his adult man feelings are always more important than those of young girls'. If you don't want to understand the difference here, and the actual issue, just so you can deflect then you do you.
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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by freesocks » Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am

liola wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:29 am

I understand that you're calling for fairness, but there's also a difference between being uncomfortable with adults in fandom spaces, which is the accusations to users and admin that you're talking about, and being uncomfortable with an adult knowingly engaging with minors and ignoring their discomfort when it comes to sexual jokes.
I do not have a problem with adults in fandom spaces. I am an adult in a fandom space. My point wasn’t to judge the people those accusations were made against as I don’t have nearly enough knowledge of the situations to do that, just as I don’t have enough knowledge of the situation with this user to play judge and jury. My concern, as you pointed out, is with fairness and the fact that those issues were never discussed and debated as this is being discussed and debated. It is your opinion that the claims made by those minors were illegitimate, but you are just one person and, no offense, but as a stranger on the internet, why should anyone put trust in your moral code and take your word for it, especially if concern for minors is the top priority? If this forum is going to moderate based on things that happen on other platforms, shouldn’t those accusations also be discussed and a set of standards and rules be made so there are clear guidelines to ensure that things are being handled fairly and that minors (and adults) are safe putting their trust in those who manage this forum? It’s very likely that the majority of people here would agree with you that the complaints I mentioned had no merit given the fact that a large portion of posters here are fan fiction writers and also friends with the accused, which would be fine because all communities are free to set their own guidelines, but the problem here is that their are no guidelines for moderating what happens off this forum and until now the mods refused to do it, so there IS a lack of fairness which should be rectified or the forum should acknowledge that fairness is not their concern and that the owners of this forum feel free to act upon their discretion based on their personal beliefs.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by glitterintheair » Thu May 02, 2019 12:10 pm

freesocks wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:40 am
I have personally seen other users (one who is even an admin) be accused of minors on Tumblr of making them uncomfortable, which, if the protection of minors is of utmost importance to users here, should raise a red flag and, if the reputation of the forum is a concern the fact that one of these people is an admin and has access to information required to register, etc, should at the very least be discussed in the same manner as this is being discussed, yet I have never seen that. In the case of another person who at least used to be a frequent poster here, I even saw it framed as bullying when minors and adults who were concerned expressed that on Tumblr.
If a minor engages with explicit content that's tagged as such and then they're uncomfortable with it, there's nothing an adult can do about it. If I, an adult, post a work of fiction on the internet, I have no control over the people who consume it. That's true to any form of media, whether is fanfiction, fanart, books, movies or tv shows. Therefore, if a minor decides to engage with such content and gets upset, it's in their right to stop engaging with it, to block the poster, to do whatever would make them feel better. That's not the same as an adult joining a freaking groupchat of minors on twitter to talk about sexual topics with them even after finding out their age and acting like we're the bad guys for expressing concern over it.
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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by liola » Thu May 02, 2019 12:21 pm

freesocks wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:54 am
liola wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:29 am

I understand that you're calling for fairness, but there's also a difference between being uncomfortable with adults in fandom spaces, which is the accusations to users and admin that you're talking about, and being uncomfortable with an adult knowingly engaging with minors and ignoring their discomfort when it comes to sexual jokes.
I do not have a problem with adults in fandom spaces. I am an adult in a fandom space. My point wasn’t to judge the people those accusations were made against as I don’t have nearly enough knowledge of the situations to do that, just as I don’t have enough knowledge of the situation with this user to play judge and jury. My concern, as you pointed out, is with fairness and the fact that those issues were never discussed and debated as this is being discussed and debated. It is your opinion that the claims made by those minors were illegitimate, but you are just one person and, no offense, but as a stranger on the internet, why should anyone put trust in your moral code and take your word for it, especially if concern for minors is the top priority? If this forum is going to moderate based on things that happen on other platforms, shouldn’t those accusations also be discussed and a set of standards and rules be made so there are clear guidelines to ensure that things are being handled fairly and that minors (and adults) are safe putting their trust in those who manage this forum? It’s very likely that the majority of people here would agree with you that the complaints I mentioned had no merit given the fact that a large portion of posters here are fan fiction writers and also friends with the accused, which would be fine because all communities are free to set their own guidelines, but the problem here is that their are no guidelines for moderating what happens off this forum and until now the mods refused to do it, so there IS a lack of fairness which should be rectified or the forum should acknowledge that fairness is not their concern and that the owners of this forum feel free to act upon their discretion based on their personal beliefs.
I'm sorry but what are we talking about then? You're admitting to not have enough knowledge on the situation and also not having been an extensive poster on here. People who have been engaging with the user for months and years are telling you what he did to make them uncomfortable, both on this forum and off. There is actual proof of what he did, while the things you're pointing out are at most speculations. You do understand the difference, right? It's not a matter of personal belief, it's a matter of looking at the situation presented with facts.

This isn't friends coming together because they decided to have fun going against one single users. I have never engaged with fancybum outside of the forum and i'm pretty sure we've disagreed on on-forum stuff a few times, but we can still see the same issue.

Again, you cannot compare fanfiction writers rating and tagging their stuff appropriately and minors engaging with it anyway, and an adult voluntarily engaging with minors even after they disclosed their age AND their discomfort. There really is no comparison.
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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by Katka » Thu May 02, 2019 1:00 pm

It’s such a red flag when someone uses the term „witch hunt“ to describe a deserved call out, lmao. Let’s compare justified criticism on an online forum to the murder of thousands of innocent people, shall we? (Seriously, guys, don’t do this. It doesn’t look good, especially in today’s political climate when right-wing politicians love the term so much. Just saying.)
”liola” wrote: If someone reads my stuff, and then lately says it makes them uncomfortable because they're a minor, all I can say is that I tagged it as explicit and mature and not for minors, and that's all I can do.
This basically. I don’t like smut and I don’t feel comfortable with it, especially if it involves real people. And what I do is… not read it. It’s super easy, especially when people tag it properly. No one opens and reads an entire story that’s rated 18 and over and tagged as smut by accident. They actively seek it out and in the case of minors actively seeking out content that is not made for them, we need to hold parents accountable, not the creators.

If a kid buys a horror book that clearly isn’t meant for them and then feels uncomfortable, I doubt anyone would attack, say, Stephen King for having written and published the book in the first place. It’s the same with fiction on the internet. If it’s properly tagged and there are content notices, the creator has already fulfilled their responsibility. The rest is out of their hands.

I don’t get why this situation is even compared to smut fic and fanart. The only way it would be the same is if someone linked smutty fanart in a group chat with minors without warning them what the link contained. We’re talking about directly interacting with minors in an inappropriate way. Not creating content aimed at adults (!) that minors might accidentally see if they ignore tags, ratings and content notices.
”fancybum” wrote: Literally all that had to happen was for him to acknowledge 'you know what, I didn't intend to be creepy, but I can see how it could have made other people uncomfortable', and I think people would have chilled out a bit (not to say people will like him, because he's still who he is, but I doubt it would have blown up to *gestures vaguely* all this).
And that’s the truth. Stakhanov wasn’t banned. He wasn’t even warned for his behaviour on Twitter. He was warned for the way he decided to respond to the moderator’s note on this very forum. I’m pretty sure none of this would have happened if he’d admitted that he’d made a mistake. I actually believe that he didn’t mean to make anyone uncomfortable. But that’s what happened unfortunately and as someone in their 30s, he should be able to take responsibility for it but he posted wild take after wild take and that’s where things got really messy. That's how we got here.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by Ataraxia25 » Thu May 02, 2019 2:01 pm

Katka wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:00 pm
And that’s the truth. Stakhanov wasn’t banned. He wasn’t even warned for his behaviour on Twitter. He was warned for the way he decided to respond to the moderator’s note on this very forum. I’m pretty sure none of this would have happened if he’d admitted that he’d made a mistake. I actually believe that he didn’t mean to make anyone uncomfortable. But that’s what happened unfortunately and as someone in their 30s, he should be able to take responsibility for it but he posted wild take after wild take and that’s where things got really messy. That's how we got here.
THIS. That's one of the things that really bothers me. Some of you, on this discussion, seem to act as if Stakhanov was given a warning (just a warning, which means, as liola said, that he still can post on any thread, it's not like he was banned) given a warning based on his recent Twitter behaviour. That's not true. If I understood correctly, he was given a warning because of one of his replies in this thread, especially the bolded parts (I didn't put the whole post because it was very long)
Stakhanov wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:45 pm
The second question i'll answer with a question: Do you think it's ok for any adult to make any sort of sexual remark or joke, not about a specific minor itself to be clear, but just as a general comment? If people watch tv and an adult comments something like "She's got hot boobs" (to use a mild example of things that actually get said in our society) while a teen is present in the room, how are you judging that? How about a facebook post with a sexually suggestive joke while that person has minors following them? or what about the often sexual imagery and jokes that kids see everyday in music clips, movies and advertising?
The fact is that sexually suggestive jokes are not foreign to people under the age of 18, are everywhere in our culture, and are even one of the things that get celebrated about Dan and Phil by a lot of teens themselves. One may find some jokes distasteful or personally inappropriate, but that doesn't mean that a person making them is guilty of some grave offense.
Just today on the train, on my way back to work, a class full of teens joined the train and I heard some things that I could only describe as absolute filth. Yes, there's a difference between what teens tell among themselves and what adults ought to say to teens, but I don't think sex should be the terrible taboo to the point that any sexual joke made by an adult should be considered inappropriate. That's not how we organize the rest of society. We do accept that teens have some exposure to sexual themes. It's in our movies, it's in our music, and it's the video's we watch of Dan and Phil.

I answered your questions, though a simple "yes" or "no" doesn't inform you about what I actually think. I hope they were asked in good faith. Let me ask you two questions in return.

Do you think interacting as an adult fandom (in a forum, chat, or otherwise) with people that are younger than you (minors) or older than you is something that should be frowned upon and should our experiences be segregated by age?

Do you think the many mature fan content that gets produced and talked about by adults in this fandom, and that also reaches a lot of minors, is inappropriate and that the people who make it should take all kinds of special precautions that it doesn't?


But I really wanted to make that very clear because I hate injustice and saying or implying that this warning issued by the mods was unfair is... well... unfair.
<3 <3 <3

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by rizzo » Thu May 02, 2019 4:48 pm

Moderator Post

Stakhanov's warning was not directly caused by his actions on twitter. If that were the case, we would have taken action back when users originally began raising concerns. Instead we opted for non-specific reassurances to users such as this and this.

We feel that we made it expressly clear to him that he was not being moderated for anything that happened off-site. The group chat he was in is unaffiliated with IDB (and, to our understanding, does not have a member overlap with this forum) and did not factor into our decision making process.

The warning was issued when he shared his defense of his actions, which was voluntarily posted to this forum by him and thus made relevant to this forum and open to moderation. Had Stakhanov left the subject alone, we would have had no grounds by which to issue the warning and therefore none would have been issued.

We feel that under rule 10, defending the right as an adult to send sexual content to a minor in a private chatroom crosses the line of what is detrimental to the board.
10. No trolling - do not use excessively inflammatory, abusive, or hateful language, impersonate anyone, post spam, or otherwise act in a way that is a detriment to the board. The moderators reserve the right to decide if a poster is trolling. Trolling is grounds for an immediate ban.
Also, just as a further reminder: Stakhanov is not banned. He has received an official warning, but he is is capable of and allowed to post on this forum. We have been careful to distinguish behavior from opinions in our moderation. The behavior we classify as trolling is not about whether someone's opinions are in the minority, but how someone behaves on the forum. If it seems like we come down harder on one person, this probably means that we're taking past behavior on this forum in account.

This thread was stated initially to be a temporary place for users to express themselves and we feel as though the topic has now been covered extensively. As such, it will close for further posts at midnight UTC. The thread will remain visible to forum members as a matter of record, but may potentially be relocated to a more appropriate subforum. Should anyone have further concerns once this thread is closed, you are welcome to contact any member of the moderation team at any point.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by knq » Thu May 02, 2019 5:26 pm

As someone who was initially distressed by this issue, I'm very thankful to the moderation team for allowing this discussion to occur. Knowing people care, and seeing them care, is so important.

While this is irrelevant to the thread's initial topic, I want to add for anyone who might read our discussion: It was stated by someone here that Twitter's TOS requires people to be 18. That is not true. Twitter and most other social media websites require users to be 13 years old to sign up.

Twitter's TOS for your convenience: https://twitter.com/en/tos
You may use the Services only if you agree to form a binding contract with Twitter and are not a person barred from receiving services under the laws of the applicable jurisdiction. In any case, you must be at least 13 years old, or in the case of Periscope 16 years old, to use the Services.
There is no reason to assume minors are not present and welcomed by social media websites like twitter, instagram, facebook, and so on. :tu:

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by cocolero » Thu May 02, 2019 5:42 pm

So where are we... a general capitulation from this side of the house of where we are so that we can keep this clean. People are starting to miss stuff just because the conversation is a bit jumbled.
  • There is a fundamental disagreement as to whether Stak said anything overly inappropriate. People on this side of the house are repeatedly pointing out that we're talking about a fandom led by a guy who has regularly discussed all manner of sexual fetishes and regularly makes reference to them. To us, it seems unfair that kids can decide that what Dan said is fine but what Stak said is horrible. Still, it clearly bothers people, so it needs to be seriously considered. However, no matter how much we say to each other, we're clearly not going to agree on this.
  • I think everybody here missed that I and several others said a temporary ban based on trolling is appropriate. The problem was that the warning is based on activity which occurred outside the forum.
  • Everybody on this side recognizes that many posters who said the same general thing as Stak said on Twitter actually in this form have not run into any problems at all. Our assumption, then, is that this action is based on dislike for the individual, not on the rules.
  • Some on this side would say that people on an adult website should expect to encounter adult topics, especially when the website is otherwise filled with fiction in which people are being subjected to all manner of sexual torture.
  • There are no rules for any of us to follow as to what our behavior within the phandom but without the site should be.
  • People on both sides are disturbed by what is happening, but only one side is taking the other's concerns seriously. Just because we disagree on whether what happened is offensive or not doesn't mean we don't respect people's opinions on the matter. Similarly, just because some people don't agree that there is to some a clear ageist, pro-bullying and unfairness problem here doesn't mean the problem shouldn't be fairly considered.
Ultimately, it all comes down to what the warning said, of course, and the moderators were clear.
lefthandedism wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:57 pm

Stakhanov, by the terms set forth in that Note, we are issuing you an official warning for this post. We give specific reasons below.
Do you think interacting as an adult fandom (in a forum, chat, or otherwise) with people that are younger than you (minors) or older than you is something that should be frowned upon and should our experiences be segregated by age?
Adults purposefully interacting with minors when the discussion topic is sexual in nature is inappropriate. Most adults in a fandom space are capable of having conversations that are not sexual in nature.
Do you think the many mature fan content that gets produced and talked about by adults in this fandom, and that also reaches a lot of minors, is inappropriate and that the people who make it should take all kinds of special precautions that it doesn't?
Mature content produced by adults and posted on a public platform that minors can access, but that is clearly directed at other adults, is markedly different than sexually explicit remarks made by an adult to a minor in a closed conversation setting.
Yes, there's a difference between what teens tell among themselves and what adults ought to say to teens, but I don't think sex should be the terrible taboo to the point that any sexual joke made by an adult should be considered inappropriate.
This sentence makes very clear why your remarks are found inappropriate. Sexual behavior between an adult and a child is always inappropriate (in fact, illegal) not because of any societal "taboo" about sex, but because of the inherent power imbalance between them. An adult discussing sex with a child may not be illegal per se, but it is still inappropriate behavior because the power imbalance between them still exists. An off-hand remark or joke of a sexual nature is on a slippery slope which has at the bottom unequivocally inappropriate (and illegal) behavior. This is what makes people, including many on this forum, not only uncomfortable but upset.
How many of the bolded things happened on this site? None. Now, perhaps the moderators did it because they see it as a form of trolling, something I've repeatedly said I totally understand. What did they say about trolling?
lefthandedism wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:57 pm
At this point, it is borderline trolling and trolling is a punishable offense. Please consider making new points instead of continuously reiterating the same ones to people who have expressed that they are finished having a conversation with you.
None of the specific reasons say anything about trolling, as bolded they all discuss inappropriate action by a member on another website. The mods could of (and should of, in my opinion and no hate to the mods because this is a difficult situation) premised the ban on trolling. Now, if the specific reasons are wrong, then the mods need to come here and say that. Stak probably deserves a warning for trolling. He doesn't deserve one for maybe doing something to people who may have been lying about their age on an open forum on another website.

UPDATE: Lel and rizzo comes through and cleans it up. Thanks for clarifying things, and ensuring the warning is just. That's what we needed to hear. Thank you, and great job keeping this open for the right amount of time. It's certainly a lot better that everyone discusses it out in the open here rather than this stuff to go unaddressed and slowly poison everyone's relationships.
knq wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:26 pm
You may use the Services only if you agree to form a binding contract with Twitter and are not a person barred from receiving services under the laws of the applicable jurisdiction. In any case, you must be at least 13 years old, or in the case of Periscope 16 years old, to use the Services.
Thanks for including it! Helps everyone figure it out, but to translate from legalese without billing everyone $350 an hour:

In the US and the EU, you can only "form a binding contract" if you are 18 or over. If you're under 18, then it's your parent who signs the contract and must monitor the performance thereof. What this says is that even if your parent signs and monitors the contract, you can't be on Twitter if you're under 13.

OK. even that's dense legal BS. Soz. To make even clearer:

You can be here if you are 18, or if you have a parent's permission and monitoring if you're under 18, but in no event can you be here if you're less than 13.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by Katka » Thu May 02, 2019 5:58 pm

Listen, cocolero, I wish you'd read all the posts in this thread because they contain multiple answers to every point you've just made instead of just repeating your opinions without considering anything people have said to you - Just like Stakhanov does, by the way. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that had people so fed up with him to begin with. Every point on your list has been answered or even debunked over the course of the day but here you are making the same points again. It's honestly frustrating.

Anyways, I actually came here to say thanks to the moderators for handling this situation so well and giving us the opportunity to discuss what has happened. I'm a bit shaken that some people seem not to see anything wrong with what has happened but at the same time I'm glad to see that so many people care, like knq said. It reminded me that this place is a safe space after all and that it has great moderators. Thank you.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by jestbee » Thu May 02, 2019 6:09 pm

I dont have the energy to respond to every single bullet point of your incredibly long post but I want to again say that I find the comparison between Dan's jokes in his content, and those directly sent to people in private messages to be offensive.

Content is put out into the world and the end user is responsible for viewing it. In the case of minors, their parents or guardians are responsible for monitoring their viewing. In the case of older people who may find some content not to their taste/offensive its their responsibility not to view it.

We're not talking about the appropriateness of content, we're talking about private messages sent directly to minors after they asked him to stop.

Why is it that you can't seem to see the difference and insist on drawing the same comparison over and over?

I'm concerned, frankly, that you think they are the same.


Thank you to the moderators for allowing this conversation to happen, and for taking action in the way that you did. I can only hope that the warning is heeded and behaviours change.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by cocolero » Thu May 02, 2019 7:57 pm

Katka wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:58 pm
Listen, cocolero, I wish you'd read all the posts in this thread because they contain multiple answers to every point you've just made instead of just repeating your opinions without considering anything people have said to you - Just like Stakhanov does, by the way. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that had people so fed up with him to begin with. Every point on your list has been answered or even debunked over the course of the day but here you are making the same points again. It's honestly frustrating.
See, this is the problem. Just because there are people who disagree with each other doesn't mean there's a right "answer" to both sides' opinions. To the extent I'm repeating myself it's because everyone here is because we've reached a point where we will simply and honestly disagree. And that's why I'm happy the mods are shutting this down at midnight - the points have been made and everyone's opinion has been aired.

What is unacceptable is telling other people what they're supposed to think and that they didn't read or consider what everyone else said. Are you here next to me? Is it possible to consider something and still disagree with it? That's where we go from respectful discussion to bullying.

I have considered what other people said, and I fully understand that many are of the opinion that whatever Stak did was unforgivably wrong. I and many others, even considering the good points brought up, don't. That's not repetition, we truly want you to understand our perspective, as we have made an effort to understand yours.

Ultimately, this isn't about any of that. A member got a warning for being a long time troll, and it was a long time coming, in my opinion. Good.
jestbee wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:09 pm
I dont have the energy to respond to every single bullet point of your incredibly long post but I want to again say that I find the comparison between Dan's jokes in his content, and those directly sent to people in private messages to be offensive.
Here's where we just have a disagreement, and that's fine. It's great to disagree, otherwise the world would be intolerably boring!

I appreciate that you haven't assumed that I haven't considered your good points. Just to lay out my thinking to show you that I have -
  • Obviously there is a difference between broadcasting and entering a private channel.
  • Part of the big difference here is that some people see a channel which allows anyone to join as still being private, whereas others (especially users of Teamspeak or Discord) assume that if you can join a channel, it's public.
  • It also does matter that people who seek out adult content probably have less of a place to feel offended versus somebody who does not seek it out.
  • People obviously disagree over whether Dan's content is adult.
  • If Stak sent PM's to people after getting kicked or told not to contact people, that's obviously a severe consent problem.
jestbee wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:09 pm
Why is it that you can't seem to see the difference and insist on drawing the same comparison over and over?
Ah, so this is where our disagreement comes to the fore - we just fundamentally disagree over whether an open group is a private channel.

***NOTE - if I've missed something, and they specifically contacted individuals separately after all this happened via direct messaging... move aside because I'll get out the torches and lead the permaban parade.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by Katka » Thu May 02, 2019 8:14 pm

I'm not trying to tell you what to think. This is not about you having a different opinion. But you keep listing the same arguments in the same way, seemingly (!) without interacting with the many people who explained why you can't, for instance, compare Dan making sexual jokes with someone sending sexual jokes to minors in a group chat. You didn't quote anyone, you didn't respond to what we have said on the subject, you just made a list saying exactly what you've already said before. I shouldn't have assumed you didn't read the posts, you're right. It's just the impression I got from your list. The discussion just feels one sided when you do your best to explain something and the other person doesn't even interact with what you said, they just repeat their original arguments again. I'm sorry I got a bit harsh about it.

I'll not reply to this thread again because I think everything that needs to be said has been said and it will be closed soon, which is good. There's no need getting into more discussions at this point, I think, especially since we're all a bit shook from the situation still.

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Re: Relocated Off-Topic User Discussion

Post by cocolero » Thu May 02, 2019 9:05 pm

Katka wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:14 pm
The discussion just feels one sided when you do your best to explain something and the other person doesn't even interact with what you said, they just repeat their original arguments again.
That's... um... exactly how I feel. I originally assiduously quoted everyone, then some people disagreed, then I quoted them, then... everything fell apart. Some people kept saying the same thing, I'd answer, and then they'd get angry I didn't change my answer when I already answered once. :lol: I did pay close attention to what you said, but it's possible in all the kerfuffle that I didn't make it clear what answered what. I'm sorry if that's what happened. :love1:

Clearly everyone is shook, and we've had the opportunity to talk it out to death. This is a lot more healthy than any other way it could have been handled. :sunshine:

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