PewDiePie

[nephilimcat]

I'm genuinely curious what you/other people find funny about "death to all jews" or making a guy say "hitler did nothing wrong". It's not even about being offended, I just don't get how it's supposed to be a joke. Maybe I just havent spent enough time on 4chan in my teens to get it.

The way I see it humor works because it always has a grain of truth in it - if you say something completely detatched from reality without context, it wouldn't be funny.
So even if you say it "just as a joke" it will stick as some kind of association in people's heads - furthering prejustices or in the worst case validating assaulters.

I'm asking myself the same thing. I do sometimes find dark humour hilarious, but there are things that I just can't find funny and "death to all jews" is among it.

I don't know what exactly is so appealing about dark humour. Maybe it is the inappropriateness (is that a word?) of it or that it is so close to reality that it hurts. I am definitely all for equality for everyone, yet I still find myself laughing about some stuff that I wouldn't find funny if it was happening in real life. Mostly I sit there and think "ouch, that's nasty" and chuckle. Yet there are things that are too horrible for me to laugh about, like the holocaust or a tragedy that just happened/affects me personally.

I also find it important who the person is that tells the joke. If a feminist makes a sexist joke it's very different to when a sexist does the exact same thing. Because you know the feminist doesn't mean it, the sexist actually does. And the feminist and the sexist don't find the same joke funny for the same reason. The sexists finds it funny to oppress and demean women/people with feminine features, the feminist just likes to be inappropriate. And that is actually a huge difference.

As I said in the other post, the audience matters as well. You also mentioned how jokes can further prejudices or validate assaulters and that's definitely true. Using dark humour should always be restricted to a group of people who aren't going to believe in the content of the jokes. Children should never be exposed to dark humour because it can have a very bad influence on them.

You are also right that there is a grain of truth in humour. However, it doesn't mean that that truth is your own view, it can just be the event that happened and you find it funny because it is inappropriate, not because you actually like it.

It's difficult to describe the appeal of dark humour. I think it is something you have to be very, very careful with. I personally only joke about myself and my problems in a very dark way to be sure I don't offend anyone. I also sometimes feel bad because I find some dark humour funny, even though I know I don't actually believe in that stuff
Everyone should be careful with what they joke about and also consider not laughing everything away. Because that way we can excuse most things with dark humour and that would be fatal.

[Birdie]

I also find it important who the person is that tells the joke. If a feminist makes a sexist joke it's very different to when a sexist does the exact same thing. Because you know the feminist doesn't mean it, the sexist actually does. And the feminist and the sexist don't find the same joke funny for the same reason. The sexists finds it funny to oppress and demean women/people with feminine features, the feminist just likes to be inappropriate. And that is actually a huge difference.

Furthermore it's a way of taking back power. Most feminist comedians who throw in the occasional sexist joke make clear it's a joke by the way they deliver it. It's more about ridiculing these kinds of joke and taking back the power that actual sexists try to take away with their jokes. It's usually quite clear which one it is - it's in the delivery, the use of emphasis, the tone of voice etc. You can tell if you're looking at a sexist making sexist jokes or a feminist ridiculing them.

In a way that's why I actually think we should stop calling Felix' behaviour "dark humour". "The Life of Brian" is dark humour. Dark humour makes light of terrible things but it often doesn't make the victims of the terrible things the punch line, but turns the thing itself into a joke that usually doesn't feel comfortable to laugh at because it's still a terrible thing. But with dark humour done right you're never laughing at the victims, you're finding a way to make light of a horrible situation. Felix however is making cruel horrible "jokes" and doesn't care who gets hurt. That's not dark humour. Actually that's not humour at all, it's just being a horrible person who probably lacks basic empathy. I don't know why else you would find direct hate speech directed at Jews funny.

The way I see it humor works because it always has a grain of truth in it - if you say something completely detatched from reality without context, it wouldn't be funny.
So even if you say it "just as a joke" it will stick as some kind of association in people's heads - furthering prejustices or in the worst case validating assaulters.

All of this, yes.

[Philena]

mio, nephilimcat, and Birdie have crafted the most beautiful and eloquent replies. I'll just sum up my argument with the dated cliché: check your fucking privilege, mate!

[koalaselfie]

Just posting briefly in defence of my previously (very angered) post (and this isn't directed at anyone; I just reflected over the past day or so): I'm not taking back what I said and I am no longer supporting Felix in or on anything (not that that means much of course, but it's a start). However I have since realised two things: 1) a lot of my vitriol seemed to be personal insults which I can now see was a daft move, and 2) I did seem to blanket him as an entirely 'evil' person, which doesn't allow for nuance of character and potential personal growth, and I understand that. Yet, when I personally see no gap in a person's character for improvement at all - in sum, an extremely ignorant attitude which has almost no hope of improving even slightly, at least imo, and has regressed very recently without much sight of a return to a more PC attitude - then I feel fully justified in bundling Pewdiepie into the "human trash" heap.

Everyone's posts here on the issue have been extremely interesting, particularly concerning what "dark humour" actually is, which I hadn't fully considered.

[Philena]

Just posting briefly in defence of my previously (very angered) post (and this isn't directed at anyone; I just reflected over the past day or so): I'm not taking back what I said and I am no longer supporting Felix in or on anything (not that that means much of course, but it's a start). However I have since realised two things: 1) a lot of my vitriol seemed to be personal insults which I can now see was a daft move, and 2) I did seem to blanket him as an entirely 'evil' person, which doesn't allow for nuance of character and potential personal growth, and I understand that. Yet, when I personally see no gap in a person's character for improvement at all - in sum, an extremely ignorant attitude which has almost no hope of improving even slightly, at least imo, and has regressed very recently without much sight of a return to a more PC attitude - then I feel fully justified in bundling Pewdiepie into the "human trash" heap.

Everyone's posts here on the issue have been extremely interesting, particularly concerning what "dark humour" actually is, which I hadn't fully considered.

Well, that's absolutely understandable, though I contest there really was nothing wrong in your initial rant. And, yes! It was really his defense that offended me the most. You could tell that he just didn't get it, and if that's not the definition of rich white male privilege, then

And, yes, I like morbid/dark humor. But there has to be some intelligence, some unspoken irony, behind the punchline.

[Catallena]

Yes @ everyone on what dark humor truly is. I hate how it has become a synonym for offensive humor that just hates on ethnic minorities, women, LGBT+ and ~political correctness~, and how it is now so freely used as bad excuse to shield bigots. There are plenty of ways to do good tasteful (as far as that goes in this context of course) dark humor that is actually funny and witty. It's a specific type of comedy that needs to be done well and that needs many elements to make it work. Like Philena said, some intelligence and irony behind it all. I love humor like that. Felix just says offensive shit and then later claims it's a joke while complaining about SJWs. That's not comedy at all.

[Elemancy]

Yes @ everyone on what dark humor truly is. I hate how it has become a synonym for offensive humor that just hates on ethnic minorities, women, LGBT+ and ~political correctness~, and how it is now so freely used as bad excuse to shield bigots. There are plenty of ways to do good tasteful (as far as that goes in this context of course) dark humor that is actually funny and witty. It's a specific type of comedy that needs to be done well and that needs many elements to make it work. Like Philena said, some intelligence and irony behind it all. I love humor like that. Felix just says offensive shit and then later claims it's a joke while complaining about SJWs. That's not comedy at all.

Seconding this.

He tries to deflect blame away from remarks resembling anti-semitism when he says they have nothing to do with that whatsoever, but despite what he means, what he chooses to say still exists at a level of micro aggression that specifically relies on the taboo, offensive and controversial nature of the subject at hand to evoke the strongest reaction from the listener. To reiterate what everyone else has said, it just trivializes discrimination tactics used in the past in the name of humor, in turn detracting from serious conversations about the persecutions these same communities still face in the present. It makes those conversations frivolous in the eyes of other people, turning it into a matter of ''It's not that bad. People are starving, war exists and taxes are high-it’s just a joke. Get over it,' thereby shifting blame to those offended while casually shirking all accountability for someone else’s discomfort. There's an intentional and dangerous ignorance towards how this kind of dispassionate approach at personal responsibility can contribute to the very hate they allegedly meant to avoid. Just how Felix's 'death to all jews' becomes a slogan without merit in the eyes of avid fans even as many present day alt right neo Nazis use this exact approach to foment a very real agenda of discrimination without an ounce of humor or irony to ‘soften’ the impact of their words. Now, when brought up as a potential threat, it's been so lampooned to the point of ridicule that it's ignored and left to fester until something on a more catastrophic scale which can't be ignored happens, forcing hindsight and sobered discussions when suddenly things become more serious than first imagined.

Downplaying dangerous ideas and offensive terms doesn't defuse their impact and you can’t pretend what you say doesn’t matter in the face of examples which prove that it does. There’s a difference between self-deprecating, taking control of your own bleak circumstances and putting a personal spin on them to better cope with the pain and then taking someone else’s traumas, someone else’s conditions or concerns which have never affected you, and making them part of your variety hour skit on YouTube.

On its own, it’s the kind of potshot remarks you expect from a shock jock who will say whatever they know audiences will deem offensive or questionable with the end goal of producing a knee jerk reaction and therefore more revenue from people who will tune in to see what they’ll say next. Not because it’s inherently funny or original or contributes anything intelligent or conceptual, but because it’s the type of raw, crude opinions and behavior they know people will talk about. It would harm nothing of his credibility as someone with an 'uncensored no holds barred attitude' towards his content matter to at least consider the possibility that maybe, in some instances, personal context doesn’t always nullify the original context and taking the stance of ‘it’s 2017’ doesn’t make for a progressive attitude and less so as a redeeming excuse.

It just makes me question why someone with such an influential, recognized presence on a popular platform, who does have a demonstrable ability to be incisive and witty, wastes his time in the spotlight being the center of controversy for offhand comments and words that add nothing to his content other than generating more 'unwanted' discussion from media outlets and upset viewers which he consistently complains about. In his mind he probably looks at it all as this kind of torch and pitchfork agenda at limiting his creativity or censoring his opinions, when it comes more from a place of trying to comprehend why genocide and slurs are the top pick for comedic value.
And as Catallena said before, ignorance and 'comedy' can't always be an excuse, especially not when one informs the other in a consistently negative and toxic light. If in other videos on the same topic that Felix has covered where he implies creators take responsibility for their creative decisions in how they use their actions and words as cheap clickbait for views, then why can’t he do the same when it comes to how he tailors his commentary and humor?

[mio]

Really enjoying everybody's posts here, great discussion about what is (dark) humor!

I just happened to watch this video and it fits so perfectly for the Felix situation as well (and shows how douchebags like this always react the same way to criticism)

(btw I love that channel)

[antigone]

thoughts?

[nephilimcat]

thoughts?

Donald Trump is President of the US, people think they know that racism isn't okay, but they don't even know what racism is. Or they actually don't know that it isn't okay. In what kind of Utopia does he live?

[mio]

Somebody still interested in trash talking Felix? Because I am. please dont let this thread die.


Out of some masochistic curiosity I still watch Felix's rant videos and...

..is he completely going for the nazi/white supremacy rhetoric now? (from 9:50 on)
It's no wonder actual neonazis have begun to embrace him and people are writing stuff like "Heil Hitler" in the comments.


Edit: Yay, just now there is new discussion!

His tweets are such bullshit, if he thinks mentioning rascism in a negative way gives it more exposure then MAYBE YOU SHOULDNT USE LITERAL HATESPEECH IN YOUR VIDEOS EITHER.

And then there are people replying (with Deppy icons nevertheless ) that he runs a "comedy channel" that's "not about politics". Well if he was just doing comedy without being hugely problematic we wouldnt be having this issue in the first place...

[malday]

I don't really want to know what idiotpie is up to anymore.

I just what to point out that "death to all jews" and "hitler did nothing wrong" were never dark humor at all, they were purposely offensive phrases used to troll forums and imageboards.
Some people used them ironically as satire for real antisemitism but some people were serious about them. You couldn't really tell between the two sometimes.
And that's why real neonazis are praising him and coming to his videos. He is such an idiot.

this is the first part of that twitter question. maybe naming Tana Mongeau was not a good idea since she herself is in a racist shitstorm right now.

all these shitty youtubers really make me appreciate deppy even more.

[manged]

thoughts?

Lol at this pussy ass excuse. Lbr. It's more like, he feels no genuine obligation to speak out, because he has no commitment to the cause. It doesn't affect him or the people important to him. It's easier just to be dismissive, and have people assume he's against racism despite his past actions contradicting that. Frankly, he can keep any anti-racism/discrimination sentiments to himself; it would probably be misguided pandering anyway.

[Catallena]

thoughts?

Donald Trump is President of the US, people think they know that racism isn't okay, but they don't even know what racism is. Or they actually don't know that it isn't okay. In what kind of Utopia does he live?

mte Neo Nazis have gotten really confident lately and they're crawling out from under all kinds of places. We need to oppose them, not normalize this even further than it already has by talking the same kind of shit they are as an attempt at comedy. It's not a joke anymore, it's very real and very dangerous.

But to him it probably is because it won't affect him. Felix is truly a piece of shit.

[pilotlight]

thoughts?

He could not be more wrong.
Lately, I've heard more racist garbage (not just online, in person) than I ever have before, and I'm saying this as someone who grew up in a city that was about as white as it gets. People who wouldn't have express these thoughts publicly, at least not to a stranger or acquaintance, even a year or two ago they now feel safe just laying it out there, and I don't even live in the US. I don't know if they just assume that I'll sympathise because I'm white, but it's worrying how quickly it's becoming """acceptable""" and I can't imagine how stressful it must be for poc. Especially with the victim-blaming that goes along with it -- "Well if [minority] didn't make such a fuss there wouldn't be such a backlash, it's their own fault."

This devolved into a rant, I'm sorry. It's just frustrating, I almost expect regressive attitudes from older generations (not that they have an excuse either) but it's almost especially ennervating when young people, who have access to a wealth of information, choose to be ignorant. I mean, I'm not holding myself up as an example of someone that's knowledgeable about social issues but I know enough to not go around wishing death on entire ethnic groups for the lulz.

[silverwinter]

I don't really want to know what idiotpie is up to anymore.

I just what to point out that "death to all jews" and "hitler did nothing wrong" were never dark humor at all, they were purposely offensive phrases used to troll forums and imageboards.
Some people used them ironically as satire for real antisemitism but some people were serious about them. You couldn't really tell between the two sometimes.
And that's why real neonazis are praising him and coming to his videos. He is such an idiot.

this is the first part of that twitter question. maybe naming Tana Mongeau was not a good idea since she herself is in a racist shitstorm right now.

all these shitty youtubers really make me appreciate deppy even more.

[offtopic]not related to pewdiepie at all, but what happened with tana mongeau?[/offtopic]

[manged]

[offtopic]not related to pewdiepie at all, but what happened with tana mongeau?[/offtopic]

Tweets and footage of Tana saying the N-word/ generally being anti-black came up a while back. Then during one of Tana's stage show, idubbbz attended a meet and greet, posed for a photo and said "Say n*gger!" like in a "Say cheese!" sort of way. Tana later made a video about how it disturbed her, and once idubbbz fans found out, I guess they started coming for her and receipts for her anti-black history has resurfaced.

[silverwinter]

[offtopic]not related to pewdiepie at all, but what happened with tana mongeau?[/offtopic]

Tweets and footage of Tana saying the N-word/ generally being anti-black came up a while back. Then during one of Tana's stage show, idubbbz attended a meet and greet, posed for a photo and said "Say n*gger!" like in a "Say cheese!" sort of way. Tana later made a video about how it disturbed her, and once idubbbz fans found out, I guess they started coming for her and receipts for her anti-black history has resurfaced.

[offtopic]ohhh yeah, i saw tana's video, but i didn't know it was about idubbbz, thanks for clarifying [/offtopic]

[sweetmm]

Never understood how he managed to attract so many viewers, had always found him to be coarse and vulgar. I thought his viewers consist mostly of pubescent male.

[pleasehelpme]

"People already know racism isn't okay" right my friend got attacked for calling him out his fans using racial slurs against her so no Felix not everyone is aware of that

[malday]

I don't want to link his video because he's attention-whoring, but in his newest one, while "joking" he throws some real shade at Tana Mongeau, Philip DeFranco, Ricegum and Zoella.

at 2:59 he mentions deppy too.

[shoe]

I haven't been actively following the Felix situation, but this article was in my twitter feed so I'm putting it here for the archives. Is him loosing his contract with Maker Studios news?
PewDiePie looses Disney deal as a result of anti-Semitic imagery

[Reizam]

I haven't been actively following the Felix situation, but this article was in my twitter feed so I'm putting it here for the archives. Is him loosing his contract with Maker Studios news?
PewDiePie looses Disney deal as a result of anti-Semitic imagery

Wow, this is certainly news to me. Good, I'm glad he's getting what's coming to him by losing that deal with Maker Studios. I feel that he thinks he's untouchable due to his status on youtube, and can just get away with it by saying its "just jokes" and that everyone should chill out and that "it's 2017", etc (which is obviously bullshit, I mean just take a look around the world right now dude). If you're representing a company, you gotta take accountability for your actions or you face the consequences. Hopefully this will humble him a bit, but I haven't seen nor will see any vids of his to find out.

It's too bad, I used to really like Felix and even enjoyed his don't-give-a-shit attitude for a while, but he just ended up becoming a filthy frank knockoff who bullies other youtubers. I had to unsubscribe, then full-on hide his videos if they were in my recommends because I reached my breaking point with him.

[malday]

I haven't been actively following the Felix situation, but this article was in my twitter feed so I'm putting it here for the archives. Is him loosing his contract with Maker Studios news?
PewDiePie looses Disney deal as a result of anti-Semitic imagery

I didn't think Maker would do anything to him since they were catering to his every whim, giving him his own sub-network and producing Scare Pewdiepie 2.
I wonder what will happen to the other youtubers in RevelMode. Hope his stupidity doesn't end up costing them too.

He reaps what he sows.

[JLynne]

I'm actually concerned about how this will effect PJ and his team-- from the hints he and Felix have been dropping on social media, it seemed like they were in the middle of producing some sort of series or other big project with Maker. They even moved into the 'Revelmode" office that I assume Maker got for them. I'm not going to get into my thoughts on Felix because they're conflicted, but I'd really hate to see the KickthePJ crew caught in the fallout.