PewDiePie

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by sentinel » Sun May 27, 2018 9:09 pm

jaej wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:36 pm
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/59q9 ... itch-fails

every time he does something awful i think maybe he'll finally suffer from it but the worse he gets the more 4chan incel losers love him. he literally can't do anything wrong because they eat it up. an article like this just fuels how much they love him for owning those feminazi libtards or whatever reactionary bullshit words they're using this week. fuck this guy fr. sooo bored of awful men knowing exactly how to profit off of other awful alt right men and knowing how to claim they never meant for that to happen
Weird hill Vice has chosen to die on. Pewdiepie didn't attack Alinity because of who she is or what she wore specifically, but because she is the twitch version of reply girls. There are a ton of them on twitch and she can't sell sex while simultaneously decrying anyone who calls her out. While thot is not a nice thing to call anyone, it's calling her a twitch thot is not the same as calling her, say, a slut. If he had said "stupid twitch reply girls" the mental image would have been exactly the same (a.k.a. cleavage in the thumbnail with negative 500 content).
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by scientia » Mon May 28, 2018 4:09 am

jaej wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:36 pm
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/59q9 ... itch-fails

every time he does something awful i think maybe he'll finally suffer from it but the worse he gets the more 4chan incel losers love him. he literally can't do anything wrong because they eat it up. an article like this just fuels how much they love him for owning those feminazi libtards or whatever reactionary bullshit words they're using this week. fuck this guy fr. sooo bored of awful men knowing exactly how to profit off of other awful alt right men and knowing how to claim they never meant for that to happen
Like, I really like Marzia. On a completely unrelated note (cough), I don't think I could ever be with someone who says some of this shit ~jokingly~ or as part of a brand/image and has done so for years. It just doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by MythicalPinkTrashCan » Mon May 28, 2018 5:39 am

sentinel wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:09 pm
jaej wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:36 pm
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/59q9 ... itch-fails

every time he does something awful i think maybe he'll finally suffer from it but the worse he gets the more 4chan incel losers love him. he literally can't do anything wrong because they eat it up. an article like this just fuels how much they love him for owning those feminazi libtards or whatever reactionary bullshit words they're using this week. fuck this guy fr. sooo bored of awful men knowing exactly how to profit off of other awful alt right men and knowing how to claim they never meant for that to happen
Weird hill Vice has chosen to die on. Pewdiepie didn't attack Alinity because of who she is or what she wore specifically, but because she is the twitch version of reply girls. There are a ton of them on twitch and she can't sell sex while simultaneously decrying anyone who calls her out. While thot is not a nice thing to call anyone, it's calling her a twitch thot is not the same as calling her, say, a slut. If he had said "stupid twitch reply girls" the mental image would have been exactly the same (a.k.a. cleavage in the thumbnail with negative 500 content).
I am not in a place to google it, but isnr “thot” for “that hoe over there”? Was I fed something totally wrong and showing my age? So it’s still slut shaming, but a newer word for it.

But also, yeah. Don’t have any shame in your game Alinity. If I was in a place where I could make money doing what she isn’t doing, shit, I would be all over that.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by alittledizzy » Mon May 28, 2018 6:14 pm

MythicalPinkTrashCan wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:39 am
sentinel wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:09 pm
jaej wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 6:36 pm
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/59q9 ... itch-fails

every time he does something awful i think maybe he'll finally suffer from it but the worse he gets the more 4chan incel losers love him. he literally can't do anything wrong because they eat it up. an article like this just fuels how much they love him for owning those feminazi libtards or whatever reactionary bullshit words they're using this week. fuck this guy fr. sooo bored of awful men knowing exactly how to profit off of other awful alt right men and knowing how to claim they never meant for that to happen
Weird hill Vice has chosen to die on. Pewdiepie didn't attack Alinity because of who she is or what she wore specifically, but because she is the twitch version of reply girls. There are a ton of them on twitch and she can't sell sex while simultaneously decrying anyone who calls her out. While thot is not a nice thing to call anyone, it's calling her a twitch thot is not the same as calling her, say, a slut. If he had said "stupid twitch reply girls" the mental image would have been exactly the same (a.k.a. cleavage in the thumbnail with negative 500 content).
I am not in a place to google it, but isnr “thot” for “that hoe over there”? Was I fed something totally wrong and showing my age? So it’s still slut shaming, but a newer word for it.

But also, yeah. Don’t have any shame in your game Alinity. If I was in a place where I could make money doing what she isn’t doing, shit, I would be all over that.
You're not wrong about what it means. It's still slut shaming and when used by a man in a situation like that a derogatory insult for a woman based on her appearance and sexual appeal. But that's exactly what I'd expect someone like Felix to go for when he wants to insult a woman.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Katka » Tue May 29, 2018 9:37 pm

This is wild because Marzia had a similar "scandal" a few years ago where people slut shamed her for wearing a sheer top. Does Felix think his girlfriend also deserved that harrassment over what she chose to wear? Is Marzia cool with her boyfriend pulling the same thing on another female Youtuber when she was so upset when it happened to her? We might never know.

I think this Alinity quote sums up the situation quite well: "They’re trying to control my body—people telling me how I should dress and how I should act. They’re trying to diminish my value by saying, ‘This is just what you are, and you should get out of here.’" What Felix said wasn't "criticism" but even if it was: What right does he have to criticise a grown woman for what she decides to wear and how she presents herself on camera? This is extra rich from Mr. Nazi Uniform who threw a fit when people told him that maybe he shouldn't have worn that. But criticising women for short skirts and sheer tops that literally hurt no one is totally his right and he gets to tell women it's their own fault when they get harrassed over their clothes. Wild, really.

EDIT: I forgot to say how creepy I think it is that he endorsed someone threatening her with deportation over this. That's so fucked up.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by scientia » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:49 am



Have to admit I'm surprised, and somewhat pleasantly. I hadn't really thought twice about youtubers promoting this site until this video.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:20 pm

I saw that video too and wasn't really surprised, most of Felix' vids are mildly entertaining though not the kind of video's I feel compelled to watch. But occasionally he brings up a good issue and I usually broadly agree with his point of view. I certainly don't think he deserves to be vilified and I'm glad he and Marzia are friendly with Dan and Phil, he seems to be one of the few youtubers they keep some informal ties with.

The company that was getting promoted by so many youtubers is a sad sympton of how the need for mental health care is not being met for so many individuals. These paid plans for online therapy only holds appeal because therapy is just to expensive to afford for many people, so this sells as a cheaper alternative... but it's not necessarily a valid alternative. I'm no expert on the matter, I don't know what science and mental health professionals of these sorts of online forms of counseling and if they have their place within an effective treatment, but the root of the issue is imo that the great need for mental health should be met in a qualitative way and be protected from aggressive commercial exploitation like this.
Perhaps the intentions of the company were good, I have no reason to assume that the youtubers getting paid to promote this had bad intentions either and they probably all thought they could potentially help people in their audience.
But this is dirty reality of making sponsored video's: occasionally a unethical company will get through. So it's good that the people involved reflect on this and it's valid for Felix and others to bring this under attention, because the potential that a scam is getting promoted here that preys on people with a vulnerable mental health is a pretty serious matter.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by alittledizzy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:10 pm

As much as I try to stay away from things that I just feel negatively about, I gotta take a moment to quietly whisper 'what the fuck' over Ben Shapiro appearing in a Felix video.

If anyone questioned his stance against trans people/trans rights, or at the very least his utter apathy towards the suffering of other humans, this should really lay that question to rest.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by flarequake » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:48 pm

I haven't watched videos about Better Help yet, but I heard of it through Beckie (forgotten her full name) and found it was fine, but only talked to one therapist, I wouldn't know more generally.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by MythicalPinkTrashCan » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 pm

flarequake wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:48 pm
I haven't watched videos about Better Help yet, but I heard of it through Beckie (forgotten her full name) and found it was fine, but only talked to one therapist, I wouldn't know more generally.
I haven't watched the videos either, but my husband and I used the marriage counseling sister site of Better Help and we had only had to change once. My biggest problem with BetterHelp/Regain.us was that we could mark "Non-religious counselor" and we would get assigned to a person who had ticked both options. (and then tried to make us pray away our problems wtf) Same with the liberal/conservative option. You gotta pick one susan

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by opendoor » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:42 pm

TW Mentions of terrorism ahead.

I feel like anybody who defends him after this Christchurch tragedy is misunderstanding the issues, or such a devoted fan he could do anything and they'd find a way to excuse it.

Nobody's saying he made the shooter pull the trigger, we are saying that he helped bring hateful and racist alt-right ideas into the mainstream. Through his own statements/actions and through who he chose to follow and support, he created a mainstream space where people holding these views, including the shooter, felt comfortable and emboldened. He needs to denounce this way of thinking to his tens of millions of followers, and he needs to reflect on his own behaviour, and likely his own beliefs (he undoubtedly holds some of these beliefs himself, people do not get so immersed in alt-right life purely for the sake of satire).

Ofc there are more important things to talk about re: Christchurch and I have been thinking and talking about those things, but that doesn't mean Felix Kjellberg should not be held accountable for his own actions.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by scientia » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:27 pm

opendoor wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:42 pm
TW Mentions of terrorism ahead.

I feel like anybody who defends him after this Christchurch tragedy is misunderstanding the issues, or such a devoted fan he could do anything and they'd find a way to excuse it.

Nobody's saying he made the shooter pull the trigger, we are saying that he helped bring hateful and racist alt-right ideas into the mainstream. Through his own statements/actions and through who he chose to follow and support, he created a mainstream space where people holding these views, including the shooter, felt comfortable and emboldened. He needs to denounce this way of thinking to his tens of millions of followers, and he needs to reflect on his own behaviour, and likely his own beliefs (he undoubtedly holds some of these beliefs himself, people do not get so immersed in alt-right life purely for the sake of satire).

Ofc there are more important things to talk about re: Christchurch and I have been thinking and talking about those things, but that doesn't mean Felix Kjellberg should not be held accountable for his own actions.
I’ve been so mad that this whole white supremacist “bit” stuck around in the first place. He so so easily could have turned it around at the beginning and it wouldn’t still be a thing (regardless of his personal beliefs). Instead it has become part of his followers’ culture/memes. He is certainly to blame for not explicitly correcting any assumptions...but maybe I’m giving him too much credit and those actually are his beliefs.

I’m even madder at the brainless defenses I’m seeing people posting.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:51 pm

I have to say I wanted to avoid this debate because I have little faith in this forum as a place for frank debate nor a particular want to be painted as a "alt-right" or "white supremacy"-enabler, or whatever ridiculous insult I see hurled around in these heated debates about identity politics.
I see the nefarious influence of the US political culture online every day. To an extent, debating within it's framework of 'alt-right' vs 'alt-left' and the terms and conflicts that go with it is imo counterproductive and harmful. This is a debate that I primarily relate with the current political and cultural divide in the US. It's not a discourse that I'd wish to promote. This is not to say that the country in which I live has no political division or tensions, but that the amped up, at times completely ludicrous political discourse that is now rampant in the US is of an especially worrying and damaging nature. One that I sincerely hope doesn't gain traction where I live. But i fear that in this (so far) ever globalizing world, and the rising influence of a global internet culture, I'm forced to speak about things like political terrorism in a frame of reference that makes little sense when i take into account my daily reality and the national political debate, but is the dominant discourse Americans get exposed to. As the terrorist attack in Christchurch sadly illustrates, American politics is likely to hook into and carve out other societal issues and thus provide a fertile breeding ground for many terrorist attacks to come.
So I might give up on this conversation if I think it's pointless, unfairly moderated or feeds into the division and 'culture war' the perpetrator of the attacks wished to achieve, but let's attempt to have a civil debate without slurring who we disagree with.


The first sentence of your post (and I don't mean to say this to antagonize) suggests to me a misunderstanding of the issue itself.

It has never been (at least for me) about a "defense" of pewdiepie himself. I don't know him as an individual and to me he is just a youtuber-entertainer like every other, deserving the same fair shake as everyone who gets accused of being anything.
I'm subscribed to him, but only watch him casually. I certainly don't feel devotion towards him. I have a perception of his character, but am aware that view is just based on what we get to see of him on the videos he releases or things I happen to read about him. On the basis of what I've heard him say and do, he's not somebody who I think holds white supremacists views or condones them. Nothing has given me that impression so far. I have heard him denounce racism and make remarks in support of LGBT issues, women's rights, charities etc that offer contra-indications of him being any kind of white supremacist. He was horrified by the attacks and publicly tweeted about them. One can debate whether he should do more and maybe make a special video about it in which he could explain in some more depth his views about the alt-right, white supremacy, and some of his subscribers that might flirt or be part of the alt-right movement. Maybe that video is still to come. Maybe he finds it distasteful in the face of such a tragedy to bring the spotlights on him. It takes after all, quite a self-important and self-centered view to insert yourself in a debate like this. Maybe we should avoid playing into the cards of hateful terrorist that inserted pewdiepie into this. The national debate after all shouldn't be, as identity-politicians wish, about who's to blame or some youtuber. It should be about how we can counter this trend of political violence, how we can impact its root causes and how we can avoid giving to much attention and weight to the agenda of the terrorist.

I hope we can all agree that pewdiepie isn't directly responsible. He can't control it if someone shouts his name during a political attack, much like a good-faith muslim can't control if islamic fundamentalists invoke their religion for the atrocities they commit. In the same way, I think it's also not true to say that pewdiepie is in no way whatsoever connected to this event. The terrorist made it about him by shouting his name, no matter how much Felix personally detests being invoked.
So he does have a certain responsibility even if he isn't directly involved, but the whole question is - like it is with every issue- for what exactly do you think he's responsible, what was under his control, what we can fairly expect of him and how do you think he should wield his influence. Those are all complex issues and will probably be defined differently according to what you think is the right balance and how you interpret his actions.

I am certainly not somebody who thinks that everywhere responsibility could be assumed, it should be assumed. We're all complicit to an extent for everything that's going on. That Michael Jackson CD you enjoy? Supported a very weird guy at best Those clothes you wear? Might have been made by destitute workers in Bangladesh getting paid pennies an hour. That Iphone you bought? Could have bought a lot of malaria nets and saved tens of lives instead. Oh You only buy fairtrade, have a tiny ecological footprint and donate substantial amounts to charity? Congratulations, that means you're wealthy and that that privilege has been afforded to you by society. You are statistically likely just to inherited a lot of money of if you're really exceptional you've leveraged your privileged starting position to extracted surplus value in a less than perfect capitalist economic system.
These examples serve to illustrate my broader point that responsibility and blame are not black-and-white issues and when we're talking about the responsibility of pewdiepie in this debate, regardless of his character, there is a whole range of conclusions we can draw about him. It's doesn't have to be that he's either 'completely innocent' or 'an evil white supremacist-enabler'.

Personally, I think pewdiepies responsibility is limited. To me he's no different from a movie star, famous member of a boys band or cherished athlete. He's an entertainer at large. He makes videos about games, memes, and whatever is the rage of the day. He's not defending some political platform and he hasn't really promoted anything that I would say is related to the supremacist agenda. Yes, there is a smallish part of his audience that must have sympathy for alt-right. That's not surprising, after all the current "nationalist" in the white house got voted in by roughly half of the voters. Likewise, the 25 percent that voted for Le Pen in France, the 50+ percent that voted for Orban in Hungary, the voters for Lega Nord in Italy, the Bolsero-voters in Brazil, the Duterte voters in the Philippines etc. etc. all seemingly seem to be fine with policies that are deeply troubling and often very ethnocentric and loathsome from a human rights perspective. This is the reality of the world we live in, this is the political fight that really matters and it are or democratic institutions and the people we elect that will have to find solutions for the root causes. The discourse of these terrorists that view themselves as 'white crusaders from a temple-order' is political, and it must be defeated politically. Pewdiepie has 90+ million subs. It is to be expected that among them there will be some radicalized neonazi's because these people also watch youtube. If they didn't watch pewdiepie, they would watch others. If they like to make a rallying cry out of some words pewdiepie has said, or manage to infiltrate one of his videos under the guise of anime, that is cause for concern but it doesn't mean Felix himself is trying to 'mainstream' anything. It's a fringe part of his audience that wants to capture his platform. There is only
only a limited amount of things a video creator can do. Granted, maybe he should have done more. Maybe he should have explicitly denounced that part of his audience, if he already hasn't (I genuinely don't know as I only occasionally watch him and don't feel like watching hundreds of hours of his videos to come to a more informed conclusion about how much he has or hasn't spoken out on this.) I would be careful in jumping to conclusions about his personal beliefs, and to say he has emboldened people to feel comfortable to hold white supremacists beliefs is a claim I see no evidence for. White supremacists in my experience tend to be rather bold in their beliefs to start with, and usually aren't to shy to voice them online.

The bottom line is that i see no evidence that pewdiepie as an entertainer has actively organized some platform for white nationalists. In conjunction with the little i think i know about his character, I find it unfair to call him a white supremacist and i think it trivializes the term which should be reserved for actual white supremacists.

He's done some regrettable things that's for sure. I think he gives way to much space to people I consider bad-faith actors like Jordan Peterson, Charlie Kirk (?), Molynieux (?)... He may have been influenced by them, or he might just be a bit naive on them. I'm not sure, don't forget these are people from the US political culture and get a lot less exposure in for example the UK so it is possible he's only seen 'the best parts' of their shtick. I certainly know of people myself who have seen some debate with the 'intellectual' Peterson and are oblivious to some of the other things he says and does that make his agenda much more clear... If find Felix giving these people a forum much more damaging than the "Bad Words" he said, though it might have been picked up on by white supremacists to rally around a cause. I think Felix isn't necessarily that politically formed, but in the end I think it's a mistake to focus on his every view to begin with. The real problem here are the actual white nationalists that try to use internet culture to spread their racist ideology.

What really rallies and emboldens these people is the political discourse in the US. So please, I would hope that none are so misguided and blind to think that one youtuber has a significant responsibility in this. Rather than trying to divide youtubers into the 'pure and innocent' vs the 'evil and racist' and partake in this imo toxic witch hunt where the withes are burned first and the evidence is looked for later - if at all, It is my conviction we should focus our attention to what matters most and what is very clearly feeding into this trend of political violence.



opendoor wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:42 pm

TW Mentions of terrorism ahead.



I feel like anybody who defends him after this Christchurch tragedy is misunderstanding the issues, or such a devoted fan he could do anything and they'd find a way to excuse it.



Nobody's saying he made the shooter pull the trigger, we are saying that he helped bring hateful and racist alt-right ideas into the mainstream. Through his own statements/actions and through who he chose to follow and support, he created a mainstream space where people holding these views, including the shooter, felt comfortable and emboldened. He needs to denounce this way of thinking to his tens of millions of followers, and he needs to reflect on his own behaviour, and likely his own beliefs (he undoubtedly holds some of these beliefs himself, people do not get so immersed in alt-right life purely for the sake of satire).



Ofc there are more important things to talk about re: Christchurch and I have been thinking and talking about those things, but that doesn't mean Felix Kjellberg should not be held accountable for his own actions.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by opendoor » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:16 pm

Not to be rude but I don't have the time to unpack all that, it's very long and winding. I don't think you really engaged with what I said, and there's definitely things you've written I disagree with but I'm not going to write a manifesto on the topic. Maybe someone else feels like engaging but I'm out.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Nah that's fine like I said I don't think this is a particularly good place to debate the issues anyway but at least someone lurking around the forums can read a differing opinion instead of thinking everyone in the fandom thinks extremely negative about Felix. Which just isn't the case but one might get that impression reading his thread.

I don't know what you mean with not engaging your post I think I talked about every aspect you brought up and offered my own take. If that isn't engaging with what you say I don't know what is but I gather you don't have time to unpack it all ;)
It's unfortunate you think it's a long and winded post but I think a complex issue deserves more than a couple of platitudes so I like to offer some context to what I think and try my best to express myself in a foreign language.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by goodbants » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:02 pm

@Stakhanov

I know I messaged you privately but I just wanna come on here publicly and say I agree, I do not see Felix as a white supremacists. He has the largest audience on YouTube and cannot control what his audience members do. He was clearly very upset about what the shooter said. I think the issue isn’t as straightforward as people make it seem.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by AroboticPhil » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:23 am

(first time actually posting in ages and it's not even about dnp)
@opendoor Your post was very well written and I completely agree with you.
I also wanna say: anyone who truly condemns the alt right would make sure it was 100% clear that they condemn it. Not minding that white supremacists think you're one of them (because then you get the views, support and $$ from that audience) says it all. In our reality where events like this tragedy happen, if you're not actively condemning racism, (and especially if you're letting it happen in a space where you have so much influence) you are complicit in it. and a trash human being.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by goodbants » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:16 am

AroboticPhil wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:23 am
(first time actually posting in ages and it's not even about dnp)
@opendoor Your post was very well written and I completely agree with you.
I also wanna say: anyone who truly condemns the alt right would make sure it was 100% clear that they condemn it. Not minding that white supremacists think you're one of them (because then you get the views, support and $$ from that audience) says it all. In our reality where events like this tragedy happen, if you're not actively condemning racism, (and especially if you're letting it happen in a space where you have so much influence) you are complicit in it. and a trash human being.
I do condemn the alt right. In my opinion attacking Felix doesn’t make any progress because he’s not the root cause of it. He doesn’t do anything to spread hate imo. It’s a very small percentage of his audience that is alt right, because anyone with as many subs as PewDiePie has is gonna have some awful people in it. I just don’t see how painting certain youtubers as “evil” when that is an inaccurate accusation of them does any good.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Stakhanov » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:24 am

@goodbants I agree it's everything but straightforward. In my view It's also easy and even lazy to try pin the trend of white supremacist violence on an individual. It's much harder to understand the reasons that makes the alt-right such a political force to start with.

AroboticPhil wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:23 am
(first time actually posting in ages and it's not even about dnp)
@opendoor Your post was very well written and I completely agree with you.
I also wanna say: anyone who truly condemns the alt right would make sure it was 100% clear that they condemn it. Not minding that white supremacists think you're one of them (because then you get the views, support and $$ from that audience) says it all. In our reality where events like this tragedy happen, if you're not actively condemning racism, (and especially if you're letting it happen in a space where you have so much influence) you are complicit in it. and a trash human being.
Looks like we're still stuck trying to condemn individuals - without much regard for any kind of fair process. I dislike witch hunts just like I dislike mobs holding torches shouting nazi propaganda.

How do you know Felix "doesn't mind being thought of as a white supremacist"? Don't see any evidence for that and I do see him make statments denouncing the terrorist attack, being horrified that his name is used and supporting causes that I don't see a white supremacist supporting. To suggest he is willingly profiting from it is an even more extreme accusation to leverage against a person. Again I see zero evidence for that and would add that it also makes little sense for him to try profit from white supremacists since he is already doing quite well financially and would arguably do even better if this group of white nationalists wouldn't be associated with him.

A quick google search is enough to bring up an article about a statement he released where he does explicetely distance himself from white nationalists: https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/17/16162 ... e-response So i'm skeptical about your statement that he has never condemned racism.
The question of responsibility is a hard one, i think there's certainly things one could hold pewdiespie partly responsible for. I afford him the same responsibility as I do other private citizens who are famous. If you think he's complicit even though he basically has little control over which people watch his video's and the messages they take from it, I hope you are consistent and also consider every Trump voter complicit for the rise of the alt-right.
More fundamentally, finding people complicit and condemning them might give you a nice feeling about yourself but it doesn't change anything. Moral condemnation did not stop these right-wing terrorists, it did not stop Trump gettting elected and it did not even manage to bring more people to the voting booth.
This does not mean we should never morally condemn people, but it does mean that if we really want to seek solutions for this trend of rising political violence, we should not rely on just denouncing people on the internet. Moral condemnations should be targeted, proportional, and with a respect of individuals' rights. Saying pewdiepie is a white supremacist meets neither of those criteria.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by alittledizzy » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:41 pm

There's a difference in condemning individuals, and in being distraught when people with a platform don't do what they need to do to discourage themselves being used as an alt-right icon. If Felix doesn't hold these beliefs, then Felix is being used as an icon and he is clearly not distancing himself from it well enough if that is still happening.

Tomska is a great example of someone who likes to make videos with edgy humor that understands what direction his audience could go in and in no uncertain terms ensures that people know he doesn't accept or tolerate that.
Felix offers an 'I'm sickened' but doesn't do anything to acknowledge why his name was in that shooter's mouth. Tomska offers a direct message to people that watch his content that might think like that, a direct condemnation and a plea. When you have a platform with ninety million people, that's exactly when what you - or don't say - say matters the most.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by rizzo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:43 pm

I'll put it out there lightly that for a while - just about until this incident - I really believed that Felix was just an idiot who made some poor decisions he needed to learn from. As a Jew, I accepted and believed that the Fiver video he made was just a really poorly executed joke. In general, I'm of the opinion that dark humor as a way to highlight our shitty world is perfectly fine and that was his argument.

I can't say that I completely shrugged off the racist comments he publicly and allegedly accidentally made after that, but I gave him like... a shred of a benefit of the doubt. IDK, I always felt a lot of discomfort, but there are times where Felix will say and do things that gave me a little bit more faith in him. I questioned why he didn't more publicly apologize, but - perhaps naively - assumed he was learning from it behind the scenes and deciding to improve. After all, sometimes silence is better than doubling down on the shit you did. Sometimes.

And then this terrorist attack happened. And I thought for sure he's gotta say something at this point. Surely, he's aware of that sect of his audience and surely the death of 50 innocent people with his name attached to it would bring him to say something more than a tweet. I wouldn't even mind if he hired someone to help him write something clear and decisive that he could say on video.... something definitive that denounces white supremacy and condemns anyone in his audience who subscribes to those beliefs. He could do something to help the victims of this crime. He could literally do so much.

But he didn't.

What he did was this:

And 3 days later:
Frankly, it's not enough. That second tweet is selfish and in the light of recent events, gross.

I don't cancel people. I think that kind of shit is stupid and you'll find me hard-pressed to easily dislike anyone. But I think his relative silence in the wake of this tragedy speaks volumes about where he stands and how he feels about that slice of his followers. He's complicit. He's a disappointment and he deserves the shit he gets.

And if your argument is that him not saying much doesn't make him complicit, I ask you this: If you were a youtuber, with a massive platform, and someone mentioned you by name before killing 50 people.... Would your only action be a tweet? I hope not.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Stakhanov » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:40 pm

In the end I don't know what is in Felix' head, and neither do you. We've only got that one tweet to go by so far when it comes to the New Zealand attacks. If his hesitation to denounce white nationalism were to be inspired by any kind of sympathy for it, that would be horrible and I would morally condemn him in a heartbeat. I don't have any desire to support any sort of person who views the fascist and totalitarian ideology of white supremacy favorably. But we don't know why he has refrained from commenting further yet. I refuse assume his motivation and condemn him as a white nationalist, no matter how large his audience and influence, before the facts are clear.

With what i've seen and read so far, I don't think it's the case that he shares the views of the neonazi fringe of his audience.
I've seen a statement from pewdiepie distancing himself in no unclear words from the white nationalist march in Charlottesville. He denounced the recent graffiti attack on the Holocaust memorial and I've heard him voice support in videos for causes that are antithetical to the white supremacist ideology. So he has not been completely silent on the issue, by which I don't mean to say that he may should be doing more given the circumstances. Did he act responsible enough? Should he do more in making his political positions clear? How much should we really focus on the individual of pewdiepie? Those are all open questions to me, that require careful consideration of what we expect of entertainers in general and need to strike a balance between many important values.

It is also clear that there is a problem with white nationalists in the pewdiepie audience trying to recuperate his channel using memes and slogans like "subscripe to pewdiepie" as ways to rally the 'alt right' and other susceptible people to their cause. This is a grave cause of concern, which makes his responsibility to speak out and be clear about his own position much greater.
I'm personally not going to comment any further about the individual of Felix Kjelberg. I think i've said plenty about what I think of him, how I think about his indirect responsibility and why I think it's certainly not a straightforward conclusion that he is to blame for the atrocities in his name.

I'm quoting part of an article I read to bring back my original concern that we should not focus on the individual of pewdiepie to start with, but rather look at the alt-right dynamic in general which is a much more complex dynamic and is tied in with social divides and other issues that are driving a lot of current political debate. Just today, elections were held in the Netherlands (a country I live very close too) and a right wing populist party has become the largest party out of nowhere. While this isn't directly connected to the Christchurch attacks, you only need to read the manifesto of the shooter (or Anders Breivik) to see how certain elements of their thinking find their way back in the immigration discourse of these populist parties. This is the real mainstreaming I think should be at the center of our concerns.

(https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/cu ... be-808633/)
Taylor Lorenz from The Atlantic, as quoted is Rolling Stone wrote:But it’s undeniably true that YouTube provides ample opportunity for people to access white supremacist content on its platform in the first place. “The problem isn’t PewDiePie, the problem is these hard-right fringe communities that are PewDiePie-adjacent,” Lorenz says. “The fact that when you watch PewDiePie videos, you’re maybe led to Ben Shapiro [a far-right commentator who has appeared in a PewDiePie video], and those lead to more and more extreme content. PewDiePie isn’t the problem. The system and the algorithm are the problem.”

Ultimately, it would be a mistake to focus too much on the memes and Extremely Online references dropped into the manifesto in trying to make sense of the horrific shootings, says Lorenz. It’s better to focus on the explosive growth of anti-Muslim hate speech, hate groups, and white supremacist messaging all over the internet, and the platforms who are arguably turning a blind eye to it. “They’ve scaled to unprecedented levels with almost no oversight, they have an extreme monopoly over the internet, people regulating them don’t understand them, and they don’t view themselves as having an ethical responsibility for the content that gets promoted on the platform,” she says. “But these people don’t find their beliefs in a vacuum.”
Another interesting contribution that warns against putting to much emphasis on the individual rather than the broader dynamic comes from the "leftist youtuber" Peter Coffin. Though I don't agree with his conclusions much, I do think his neo-marxist perspective has relevance when it comes to looking at the responsibility of pewdiepies 'employer', the evil white supremacist Google.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by alittledizzy » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:23 pm

Stakhanov wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:40 pm
In the end I don't know what is in Felix' head, and neither do you.
Not knowing what's in someone's head on the topic of white supremacy is major red flag for me. There's only one reason to not come out with a clear stance on that, and repeat it as often as necessary so that no one has any question about it. If you're personally okay with not knowing if someone is a white supremacist or not, well - everyone's allowed to put the line wherever they want it. But surely you can understand why it's very damning for that to even be something left up for debate and why it alarms people.

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Re: PewDiePie

Post by Stakhanov » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:38 pm

alittledizzy wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:23 pm
Stakhanov wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:40 pm
In the end I don't know what is in Felix' head, and neither do you.
Not knowing what's in someone's head on the topic of white supremacy is major red flag for me. There's only one reason to not come out with a clear stance on that, and repeat it as often as necessary so that no one has any question about it. If you're personally okay with not knowing if someone is a white supremacist or not, well - everyone's allowed to put the line wherever they want it. But surely you can understand why it's very damning for that to even be something left up for debate and why it alarms people.
"Not knowing what's in someone's head on the topic of white supremacy is major red flag for me."

Well I don't know how you can get in the head of people because as far as I know mind reading is not an ability humans possess and that's what i mean when I say " In the end I don't know what is in Felix' head, and neither can you". It's not true that his his views are a complete mystery. He has distanced himself explicitly and he has never endorsed a white nationalist agenda. His statements might not be clear enough to you and meet your standards, but it's not true that he has no clear stance.

In his own words:
(https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/17/16162 ... e-response)
Felix aka pewdiepie wrote:
“I thought now would be as good a time as any to just say ‘I want nothing to do with these people,’” Kjellberg said. “I don’t think anyone who watches me think I’m an actual Nazi, but I know a lot of people may still have doubt — mainly because of all the jokes that I’ve been making. At this point, I really just want to distance myself from all of this.”
“If for some reasons Nazis think it’s great that I’m making these jokes, I don’t want to give them that benefit,” Kjellberg said. “So I’m going to stop doing it. Nazi memes, they’re not even that funny anymore. It’s sort of a dead meme. So just to make it clear, no more.
“It’s not me censoring myself, it’s more like I don’t want to be part of this.”
This isn't ambiguous to me. He wants nothing to do with these people and wishes to distance himself from the white supremacists that gathered and killed in Charlottesville. A gathering btw of which the f*****g president of the United States commented that there were "many good people" among the white nationalists protesting and took a very long and hard time to condemn, after arguing that "both sides" were in the wrong. I would plead that farce is slightly more relevant and important when we want to reflect on the reasons why the Christchurch massacre happened.


"There's only one reason to not come out with a clear stance on that,"

Besides I do think that he's come out with a clear stance, It's also just not true that there can only be one reason. He's an entertainer who likes to make jokes that some find funny and others don't. He's confronted with a neonazi fringe in his audience that he has no direct control over. He might not want to get engaged in politics to much, take the view that not giving attention to that fringe is a better option or find it distasteful to react so closely after the attacks. This is after all what plenty of experts (and I would argue human decency) recommends: bring attention to the victims and not just the attacker. Don't get tricked into feeding into the agenda of the attacker. Be aware that these statements like "subscribe to pewdiepie" were meant to gain attention and to polarize society. We don't have a crystal ball that can tell us why pewdiepie has not spoken more, other than the quite significant stance he has already made.

" If you're personally okay with not knowing if someone is a white supremacist or not"
I don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion if you read my post. In the paragraphs following the one sentence you quote I emphatically say I wouldn't want to support a white nationalist, go into details why I think he's not (until new information would change my mind) and talk about how I think it's important to find a balance in attributing responsibilities to individual entertainers but also the viewer, google, facebook, twitter, and the broader political discourse in our societies. I hope you can see how the suggestion that i"m personally okay with not knowing if someone is a white nationalist or not" is quite aggravating. If I truly wouldn't care, I would not spent hours trying to share my perspective in a place where expect little sympathy for them. I certainly understand how lines can be drawn differently and there is plenty of cause for alarm when white nationalism tries to 'go viral' and expand its reach to a global audience. All the more reason why it's important to have a nuanced discussion and avoid a dogmatic way of thinking when it comes to these issues.
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Re: PewDiePie

Post by alittledizzy » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:51 pm

Not going to quote the post since it's directly above, but you are right about one thing, @Stakhanov: Felix denouncing something in 2017 when his content, the people he give a platform to, and his personal social media following don't reflect anything denounced or a change in attitude does not meet my personal standard.

I'm going to quote rizzo here because I think her post on this issue was fantastic and the bolded part is exactly what I feel is lacking in this situation.
rizzo wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:43 pm
I'll put it out there lightly that for a while - just about until this incident - I really believed that Felix was just an idiot who made some poor decisions he needed to learn from. As a Jew, I accepted and believed that the Fiver video he made was just a really poorly executed joke. In general, I'm of the opinion that dark humor as a way to highlight our shitty world is perfectly fine and that was his argument.

I can't say that I completely shrugged off the racist comments he publicly and allegedly accidentally made after that, but I gave him like... a shred of a benefit of the doubt. IDK, I always felt a lot of discomfort, but there are times where Felix will say and do things that gave me a little bit more faith in him. I questioned why he didn't more publicly apologize, but - perhaps naively - assumed he was learning from it behind the scenes and deciding to improve. After all, sometimes silence is better than doubling down on the shit you did. Sometimes.

And then this terrorist attack happened. And I thought for sure he's gotta say something at this point. Surely, he's aware of that sect of his audience and surely the death of 50 innocent people with his name attached to it would bring him to say something more than a tweet. I wouldn't even mind if he hired someone to help him write something clear and decisive that he could say on video.... something definitive that denounces white supremacy and condemns anyone in his audience who subscribes to those beliefs. He could do something to help the victims of this crime. He could literally do so much.

But he didn't.

What he did was this:

And 3 days later:
Frankly, it's not enough. That second tweet is selfish and in the light of recent events, gross.

I don't cancel people. I think that kind of shit is stupid and you'll find me hard-pressed to easily dislike anyone. But I think his relative silence in the wake of this tragedy speaks volumes about where he stands and how he feels about that slice of his followers. He's complicit. He's a disappointment and he deserves the shit he gets.

And if your argument is that him not saying much doesn't make him complicit, I ask you this: If you were a youtuber, with a massive platform, and someone mentioned you by name before killing 50 people.... Would your only action be a tweet? I hope not.

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