This is me being pedantic, but counterculture actually encompasses any subculture that goes against mainstream culture, so pastel is definitely a part of the counter culture.Birdie wrote:I think what we’ve been trying to get at is that pastel punk relies too heavily on grunge and punk to be it’s own subculture. Jaej had also mentioned things like a scene, a definite music style, films, novels even, media coverage… Pastel punk doesn’t have any of this (yet) and we’ll have to wait and see whether or not it will develop or vanish. Of course subcultures and counter cultures always influence each other but as far as I can tell pastel punk is basically punk with a few more colours thrown in, soft grunge was meant to be a cleaner, prettier version of 1990s grunge. I’m still not sure if they aren’t interchangable too because all the “pastel punk” stuff I see looks exactly like Tumblr soft grunge to me. It’s an aesthetic I actually really like but I don’t see in what way it could be understood as its own subculture because I don’t see the political connection you see and I also think it’s still too close to just being regular grunge or punk to “count”.jhamba wrote:This brings up a question, though. When can a trend or movement be called a proper subculture? imo, The fact that there is a small amount of people who associate themselves with pastel punk and the ideals have a certain amount of cohesiveness, which makes it enough of a subculture to me
Yes, I can see that but I also think that these people still are drawn in by punk, goth or grunge in the first place. They’ve formed their own style within these communities because they didn’t like everything about them. I think that sums up what I was trying to say nicely: Pastel is a community within the punk/grunge/goth communities, not its own counter culture alongside them. Counter cultures evolve all the time, they change and they branch out and I think pastel is one small branch within the punk and grunge communities. Emo started out like this too in the late 1990s and then changed drastically and became bigger, developed its own musical style, aesthetics and “rules”. Pastel might do that but I don’t think it has yet.jhamba wrote:I'm not trying to argue that the goth, punk and other counter cultural subcultures are a part of patriarchy or not feminist, just that some people might feel alienated because of the image, so they might find pastel more welcoming.
I think we can’t really compare today’s subcultures to those of the past anyway. Back then, in the 1960s and 1970s, it was different because it was a completely new thing. The Mods, Punk etc., it had never happened before. It’s not new anymore and being counter culture has in some way become mainstream. It’s not that scandalous, different or political anymore, anyone can do it and in some way everyone does it. So subcultures keep branching out to form always newer, smaller “cultures” because people want to be different. But I personally think it’s a good thing we’ve come far enough as a society that being punk or emo or whatever is mostly socially accepted.
I think this might’ve been directed at me? As I said: I’m not saying it’s not real. I’m saying it’s not an actual subculture or even a counter culture because it is small, new and hasn’t developed into one yet. It still leans on punk too heavily to be its own thing and even though jhamba has mentioned a political connection, I can’t really find it even though I believe her it’s there for her of course. I didn’t mean to invalidate pastel as a way of life, I just think it’s not comparable to actual counter cultures for the reasons stated above. Yet. We’ll see were it will go in the future. Halsey has been mentioned a lot and she’s the epitome of soft grunge, I think, in the way that it seems to be something she actively connects with whilst other artists that get labeled “pastel” don’t. This might be a start of something or it might die down again, we’ll have to wait and see!trashqueen wrote:on the other hand i do have Opinions™ on things being disregarded as 'not real' because they are happening mainly online *pulls out communication student card*
PS: I’m not as passionate about this as my posts make out, lol. I’m sorry if I’m being obnoxious or anything, I just think this is really interesting. I haven't studied sociology but I have worked with social history and I love the history of counter cultures and stuff, so interesting.
Also, I'm going to argue , as I have before, that all subsets of counter culture is built as an offshoot to another one (except se religions, maybe). And, I feel like pastel punk/soft grunge (I don't see much of a difference, either), has come into it's own, to some extent. There's some definite role models they have, and there is enough evidence, to me, that it has some of it's own philosophy which differs slightly from grunge/punk/emo.
Also, I feel the need to mention, I don't actually give a shit about pastel personally, either. The only reason I feel the need to come to it's defense is because it's so dominated by teenage girls, who are just shat on by society. My defense of pastel punk comes from the same place of me defending Mary Sue's in fanfiction.