alittledizzy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:46 pm
(I would also argue that coming to the defense of Dan and Phil or Felix, and passionately stating why you don't think people should be upset is just as invested as making the opposite argument, though. Also, I'm not accusing you or anyone of trying to police things, I think IDB is one of the places that happens least, but I still feel like it's a good time to reiterate that point.)
Point taken
Though as I said, my reaction mostly comes from being amazed at how emotional the responses are.
Putting that aside though. I wonder if they'll upload a little something for us tonight. Aren't we due a AP vid by now?
lishachi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:43 pm
I think the thing is that people who are fans of deppy (us lot) respect them, some of us have grown with them, they've had positive influences on our lives, etc. we like them, as people, we want good things for them, we want them to do good in whatever they do. So when they associate themselves with people (or in this case, a person with a reputation on youtube, who has been racist aswell as many other things) it's disheartening to some, I think. I'm not sure if that's the right word. It's kind of like, you see someone who you respect, who you like, who then goes and hangs out with someone (even if just in the same room) who you don't respect/like/care for, for whatever reason. And that, for me, does feel a little like 'oh'. Kind of disappointed, kind of confused, questioning why they're doing it, why they're around that person. Does that make sense??
I respect them a lot and I trust them. I like them as people. I think they're genuinely nice people. [...]
(Also sorry if this didn't make much sense, I'm still sick and my head is woozy, I hope this doesn't come across as rude or uneducated. Feel free to agree/disagree!)
Sorry for making a post so soon again - but what you are writing makes a lot of sense, don't worry. We are all experiencing a parasocial relationship with Dan and Phil, a mediated one-way relationship that makes you feel like you know them and that you are friends, so you have the same feelings and expectation as with "real" friendships. This isn't anything freaky and has been documented as early as TV became a thing (1950's). If the person you are having these parasocial interactions/relationships changes or becomes unavailable (e.g. stopping YouTube, or turning out to be a different person after all), you can experience what is called parasocial breakup - which to a lesser degree, feels like a real breakup.
I really just wanted to write this to make sure you know it's ok that you are a bit confused about this; it's totally normal (and actually really interesting to read about scientifically). If you think in the model of cognitive dissonance that I mentioned earlier, there's three ways to deal with feeling like this: You can choose to dislike Dan and Phil, you can choose to like PDP, or you can choose to not care all that much - since you can't choose for Dan and Phil not to meet with PDP.
I might not have a sociology degree or an excessive knowledge about politics, but this is something I know and live by. I distance myself from becoming too (parasocially) involved, which can prevent me from having the emotions connected with that "breakup" and the cognitive dissonance. That doesn't mean I don't care about racism or other global issues - I care about it, but not for Dan and Phil's sake.
"Do you guys think it was a good idea for Dan to mention Felix in his liveshow? Do you think he should of kept quiet? Do you think that the reaction would be the same if just the picture was uploaded and no mention of Felix was made prior?"
While listening to his liveshow as it was going on, I 100% didn't expect him to. It came totally out of the blue for me, as like a lotta you, I didn't think they'd publicly admit to hanging out with him. However, I prefer this over the radio silence whenever a controversy (ESPECIALLY YT controversy) happens from DnP. I need both my hands and feet to count the amount of times I've seen other YTers making their POVs known on controversies and scandals especially since late 2016, but DnP tweeting about animals or something instead. I like them acknowleging(sp?) what has happened outside of their own YT stuff. Most of the time I don't mind but lemme tell you there's been a few times where their silence irks me.
i'm so funny. i am the funniest person in the world. ryan gosling finds me hilarious. i'm in a submarine.
blackdenim wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:12 pm
Yes you're right. However, from my POV (I don't want to speak for anyone else), the picture with Dan right next to Felix and posing blowing the candles out playfully like that doesn't indicate 'I am here to celebrate Marzia's birthday and I am going to have an awkward conversation with Felix about his behaviour and hope it will be better in the future'. It indicates that they are still the best of friends and no conversation has taken place at all.
Of course it's stupid to infer something from a picture like that but I dunno... this is an issue I feel strongly about. I wish Dan just hadn't said anything in his LS to be honest, the fact that he knows that Felix is a problem but doesn't care honestly bothers me more than if he just... didn't think it was a problem.
I get what you're saying. He did stand right next to Felix in the photo and he looks friendly but being unfriendly or confrontational toward Marzia's bf at Marzia's birthday party would be really rude. I would imagine that if Dan really did have a "talk" with Felix he would have done so a bit more privately before or after the main event.
Sorry if I say something wrong. My first language is sarcasm. I've never really learned English
Re: Felix
I haven't joined this discussion thusfar because I brought up a PDP video some time ago and got one or two comments about how he shouldn't be watched. I indeed stopped watching him, but that's due to his content that's boring me at the moment.
I agree with whoever said that he's not actually racist and anti-Semitic. It's pretty unfair to say "he's using his platform to be racist" when he said the n-word once during a stream and apologised. Or has he said any other racist things recently?
As I've written a couple of times before, I come more from the livestreaming side of the internet. There's a lot of - very popular - livestreamers that make pretty racists, ableist and sexist jokes, and they are perceived well by the chat (twitch chat is quite something). I personally find those jokes stupid and also wouldn't hesitate to tell people I know not to use them. But no one in the scene stops being friends with someone because of their persona, or if they've had a slipup and said something bad. I don't believe it if anyone claims that they've never said anything offensive. Just that we are not viewed by millions of eyes.
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the PDP stream slur. But I think often things are blown out of proportion - for example, the reason he is called anti-Semitic is because of the fivrr video where he paid someone to call Keemstar anti-Semitic as a joke ("Death to all Jews - subscribe to Keemstar" but everyone is leaving out that second part).
While PDP is also frustrating me, he's also just a human with a crazy amount of pressure to perform. And suddenly a lot more eyes than his subscribers (who like his humour) are on him; him not performing cost him his deal with Maker, Revelmode, his YT Red series and (for reasons I don't know) he stopped working with his editors. Call me naive and a privileged white girl but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.
[...]
Good for you if you have become desensitized to misogynism and racist slurs, it's not like that's exactly the problem with someone with a big platform catering to and encouraging that behavior.
[...]
thewaytobehappy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:45 pm
*Long time lurker, hi. Also probably unpopular opinions incoming*
To start then.
I would be more receptive to accusations of Felix being racist/nazi if the term wasn't thrown around like candy these days. Mark my words, at this rate, in a few years the term will have lost all meaning and real racism will go unchecked because noone will take it seriously anymore.
It's honestly the reason why I personally distanced myself from the left, while still upholding liberal values.
I'd also be more receptive to it if the "Phandom" didn't have a real and serious problem with wanting to police and judge who the guys hang out with. It seems they can't spend time/collab with anyone with complaints these days. Even previous Golden Boy Anthony has seemingly fallen from grace these days.
If you really think Felix is the "poster child of the alt reich", then please. PLEASE. Step away from the keyboard. Go outside, take a walk. Call mum or dad so they can give you a reality check. Just STOP and think for a moment.
*I do think the [censored by moderator] comment was wrong, but calling hima racist for a comment amidst gamer rage is ridicilous. I also think Felix is 100% done with the sjw movement after the wsj article.*
^Textbook example of desensitization.
You've made it quite clear that you think we are bad people for having our opinion and for not being upset about the issue.
Alright, show me where i said i think you, or the other person i replied too are bad people?
LtrllySusan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:06 pm
The issue being - people we don't know hanging out with people we don't know. You might call it desensitised, I call it a healthy distance.
What i replied too was directly referring to Felix and only that, not once did a pass judgement on whether you think it right or wrong that Dan and Phil hang out with him.
Like i said in the reply you incompletely quoted, i think my opinion on him is informed and i'm familiar with the environment you were referring to and that's why i call it desensitized, that's exactly what you described with the chat not caring about what is said in streams, is it not?
LtrllySusan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:06 pm
That is why some people on here are having issues with cognitive dissonance (I like Dan and Phil - I don't like PDP - But Dan and Phil like PDP) and are personally struggling. You know what? I am perfectly fine that they are hanging out with him. We don't know how many times they go and hang out with friends and how open they can be during those meetings, so I am pretty sure they had a great time.
What a coincidence, i also like Dan and Phil and really dislike PDP, and i'm also the one who said i don't think their "friendship" can even be called friendship, it's probably not something deep enough where they can even discuss such topics , and i also said i understand why they would keep social niceties with him. And that doesn't stop me from being disappointed that they did hung out with him.
There absolutely is a middle ground imo.
LtrllySusan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:06 pm
If I had to sit down and think about how I can live with having knowledge of someone saying a bad word everytime that happened, I would do a lot of sitting down and a very little bit of living and actively being a better person. Telling people they are desensitised and then moving on to discussing with people you rather like isn't gonna help, for example.
Like i said i was only replying to what you said about Felix, and i do understand there are various degrees of perception about him, but i also know people didn't form opinions just based on one word he said once like you make it to be.
But please don't think i dislike you just because i replied to some points i disagreed with.
I didn't think there was a point in starting a complex offtopic discussion about it, since it happened enough in the PDP thread, but i can engage in pm if you'd like.
Last edited by malday on Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A lot of people have said it way more eloquently than I could, but basically I'm also extremely disappointed in DnP and I don't think that them hanging out with someone like felix should be ignored or brushed aside because it really really sucks (and they have 0 excuses)
I'm glad to see there's so much discussion about it (at least on IDB, not sure about twitter & tumblr) and I really hope that deppy are aware of it and that they're starting to feel ashamed (i don't know if that's way too optimistic of me).
I think I want them talk about it in tomorrow's liveshow because it would force them to acknowledge that they had the choice to associate with felix or not, and they picked yes. Maybe that's mean, and I probably am bc I'm very annoyed, but I want Dan to look us in the eye and try to defend the fact that he's still "woke" even tho he was happily posing next to an anti-semitic racist two days ago . Good luck buddy
(Phil is 100% to blame too but well because he never says anything about any subject, at least there's no hypocrisy factor with him... tho I don't really know which one's worse)
thewaytobehappy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:29 pm
I think what LtrllySusan says about distance might very will be it. I see so many people getting so invested in the personal lives of people they're a fan of, not just DnP, but in general. It always confuses me, maybe because I never felt that. I'm 29 now, but even as a teenager at the height of my Rammstein stanning all I wanted to know was their names and when I'd get to see them play live.
I'm sometimes quite shocked at how invasive and bold fandom is in this age of social media.
I don't want to be rude, but why are you on this forum then?
Also, maybe it's a bit off-topic, but since yesterday, I've been thinking a lot about kuensukki's post and I just want to say that I'm sorry that I don't engage in calling out racist and xenophobic behaviour. But it IS hard to care about every issue with the same passion, especially when it doesn't concern you directly. It's true that there are more white people in the phandom, as there are more LGBTQ+ people than straight people, as the recent survey showed, and probably - if not more, then almost an equal amount of people with mental health issues as people without. But not only not being directly concerned is the problem, as you can ignore it, the position of an ally is a difficult one in itself. For instance, I just feel that it's not my place as a white person to voice an opinion, when there are PoC who speak up and especially when they disagree with each other (like we've been having just now re: the appropriate reaction to Deppy socialising with Felix or like the difference in opinions from Japanese people during the cultural appropriation debate)
Dan wants to be understood. Phil just wants to make the viewer smile and sell some backpacks (c) fancybum
plath wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:49 pm
Highly doubt there'll be a liveshow tomorrow. I imagine Dan'll want to avoid any potential grilling by letting it all blow over by a week or two.
Phil did tweet that he would join Dan's on Tuesday and I think they'd want to talk about/promote their game so I'm leaning towards there being one.
Though yeah, spooky week starts on Wednesday so that's a good excuse to cancel a few liveshows if they want to.
JLynne wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:48 pm
Shifting gears a little.... Marzia write on her blog marziaslife.com that they had played the "OG version" of Truth Bombs at PJ and Sophie's place "years ago." I didn't realize that this game had been floating around Phil's head for that long. I wonder what that OG version looked like?
Yep they definitely mentioned this in their video. Bless Phil and his icebreakers
I feel too emotional and not well informed enough about YT politics or PDP’s behavior (besides the most obvious incident) to write anything that feels like a statement, or say who exactly I agree with here as there have been so many posts and fair points. I also don’t want to seem like I’m ignoring the subject as it is really important and I appreciate that it can happen here civilly, but it’s a hard one to jump into. I am disappointed, seeing the photos *does* hurt, but beyond that... I just don’t know. I haven’t wanted to reblog anything these past two days, so I’m just letting my queue do it’s thing with some Nightmare Before Christmas AU fan art. I hope that there is some acknowledgment from Dan in his ls tomorrow, but I’m not holding my breath, even if it currently physically feels like I am.
coffeepenguin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:52 pm
I don't want to be rude, but why are you on this forum then?
Not rude, fair question if you do want to know.
I got into the guys this spring during a (brief) stint of unemployment, starting with their Sims series in my youtube recs. I was aware of the speculation surrounding their relationship, but I was mostly curious how long they'd known each other, seeing how comfy they were together. So I looked them up.
It was...a wild ride. I ended up here eventually. I do like the discussion here most of the time, so I started reading along.
I completely forgot spooky week starts wednesday. No video tonight I guess.
lishachi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:43 pm
I think the thing is that people who are fans of deppy (us lot) respect them, some of us have grown with them, they've had positive influences on our lives, etc. we like them, as people, we want good things for them, we want them to do good in whatever they do. So when they associate themselves with people (or in this case, a person with a reputation on youtube, who has been racist aswell as many other things) it's disheartening to some, I think. I'm not sure if that's the right word. It's kind of like, you see someone who you respect, who you like, who then goes and hangs out with someone (even if just in the same room) who you don't respect/like/care for, for whatever reason. And that, for me, does feel a little like 'oh'. Kind of disappointed, kind of confused, questioning why they're doing it, why they're around that person. Does that make sense??
I respect them a lot and I trust them. I like them as people. I think they're genuinely nice people. [...]
(Also sorry if this didn't make much sense, I'm still sick and my head is woozy, I hope this doesn't come across as rude or uneducated. Feel free to agree/disagree!)
Sorry for making a post so soon again - but what you are writing makes a lot of sense, don't worry. We are all experiencing a parasocial relationship with Dan and Phil, a mediated one-way relationship that makes you feel like you know them and that you are friends, so you have the same feelings and expectation as with "real" friendships. This isn't anything freaky and has been documented as early as TV became a thing (1950's). If the person you are having these parasocial interactions/relationships changes or becomes unavailable (e.g. stopping YouTube, or turning out to be a different person after all), you can experience what is called parasocial breakup - which to a lesser degree, feels like a real breakup.
I really just wanted to write this to make sure you know it's ok that you are a bit confused about this; it's totally normal (and actually really interesting to read about scientifically). If you think in the model of cognitive dissonance that I mentioned earlier, there's three ways to deal with feeling like this: You can choose to dislike Dan and Phil, you can choose to like PDP, or you can choose to not care all that much - since you can't choose for Dan and Phil not to meet with PDP.
I might not have a sociology degree or an excessive knowledge about politics, but this is something I know and live by. I distance myself from becoming too (parasocially) involved, which can prevent me from having the emotions connected with that "breakup" and the cognitive dissonance. That doesn't mean I don't care about racism or other global issues - I care about it, but not for Dan and Phil's sake.
Thank you for replying, you've reassured me! Also the parasocial relationship topic is interesting and intriguing, I'll be looking it up later on. Thanks
katemko wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:01 pm
"Do you guys think it was a good idea for Dan to mention Felix in his liveshow? Do you think he should of kept quiet? Do you think that the reaction would be the same if just the picture was uploaded and no mention of Felix was made prior?"
While listening to his liveshow as it was going on, I 100% didn't expect him to. It came totally out of the blue for me, as like a lotta you, I didn't think they'd publicly admit to hanging out with him. However, I prefer this over the radio silence whenever a controversy (ESPECIALLY YT controversy) happens from DnP. I need both my hands and feet to count the amount of times I've seen other YTers making their POVs known on controversies and scandals especially since late 2016, but DnP tweeting about animals or something instead. I like them acknowleging(sp?) what has happened outside of their own YT stuff. Most of the time I don't mind but lemme tell you there's been a few times where their silence irks me.
plath wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:49 pm
Highly doubt there'll be a liveshow tomorrow. I imagine Dan'll want to avoid any potential grilling by letting it all blow over by a week or two.
Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I think them staying out of things is smart, but other times I wish they'd speak up. Idk, they don't seem to like confrontation, or Phil doesn't seem to anyway, Dan seems to like to mention things casually and then not address it further afterwards. And I was hoping for a liveshow, maybe there will be one and the whole weekend will be summed up like ''We had a great weekend, played our new game that we bought Marzia, saw everyone else'' and it'll all be ignored. Curious to see if Phil joins, what he will contribute IF Dan does bring Felix up.
thewaytobehappy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:05 pm
I'm sorry if you perceive as desentisized, malday. Because that's actually a state I actively try to avoid.
I very much care about social issues. I just think the way the left as a whole currenlty goes about this will ultimately only undermine this.
I do however, also make an active attempt to explore both the left and the right, because I was taught from an early age that there is always more then one truth and pov. I personally feel this has helped me tremendously to become a balanced individual. Left of center, so to speak. And occasionally both sides and funny, or vexing and downright infuriating. Think of me what you want for that *shrug*
As far as what "movement" Felix subsribes to, if any, thank God he was smart enough to take the alt-rights bait. Whatever hole the hole the left and right wanted him in, he hasn't done it.
Here is a point of view for your consideration, as much as you say you see the word racist being thrown around, social justice warrior is also being thrown around like candy to dismiss very logical and reasonable concerns and even for just expecting people to be decent human beings.
That does sound desensitized to me and like falling into the trap of a certain narrative.
If you are able to see the bs on one side you should be able to see it on the other side too.
malday wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:22 pm
Here is a point of view for your consideration, as much as you say you see the word racist being thrown around, social justice warrior is also being thrown around like candy to dismiss very logical and reasonable concerns and even for just expecting people to be decent human beings.
That does sound desensitized to me and like falling into the trap of a certain narrative.
If you are able to see the bs on one side you should be able to see it on the other side too.
Oh, I'll readily aknowledge that the term sjw get's thrown around far to casually as times too. My initial point (perhaps harshly) was more in regards to the situation with Felix.
I don't doubt you have beautiful intentions, nor do I think your obvious passion towards social justice isn't commendable. I just wish people would be much, much more careful in slapping labels like racist or alt-right on people. Because as I said, with time these words will then lose their meaning, and so I'd rather save them for people that actually deserve them, not a ragegamer.
I prefer to talk and debate, exclusion isn't the key, rather a poison. If you have a different opinion I genuinely want to know why so we can talk even more. That's the way I want to bring about a positive change.
Felix to me is a man who has some deep-settled, internalized racism bubbling underneath whatever the hell type of channel he's got going on. He's a very wealthy and powerful man who has no concept of limits or boundaries in what he can and should do. He's an uppity white dude who has not experienced any serious reprimand for his actions (if anything he's been nothing but rewarded for being an asshole)and will continue to do what he does until something (if anything happens). It's the story of privilege and choosing to live in a very narrow and non-diverse world. His edgelord humor is just an indicator of where his morals lie, and they lie with making light of oppressed groups and sensitive subjects for laughs of an audience who is more-or-less the same type of person as him. He's not some self-appointed alt-reich figurehead, but his humor validates those in his audience that are. Honestly this entire issue would make me feel relieved if Felix out and said, "yeah, I'm a white supremacist," but there's obviously this tension between what Felix believes in politically (I'd gauge slightly left of center) and how that aligns with his actions that makes the whole issue so infuriating. Believing that oppressed groups deserve equal protection under the law and less discrimination is all well and good until you think that you shouldn't don't have any personal responsibility in making that happen and shouldn't change your behavior.
Now, I'm sure Dan and Phil's interactions with Felix have been nothing but pleasant and that he is very nice to them and his group of friends. I know plenty of these edgelord guys who are "nice people", but their humor indicates a portion of their personality that doesn't fly in non-humorous settings. Behavior around others should not excuse the behavior someone has when the doors are closed.
My issue is the disconnect between what Dan and Phil preach on their own and how they go about practicing it. More often than not, they don't practice it and just make talk. Their friendship with Felix isn't really clear cut to me. I don't know how often they interact with him and how they do it, and I really don't want to make assumptions. And also it's not easy just to "drop" friends if they do something problematic. However, I do wish they were more outspoken about Felix's Fuck Ups instead of the whole "problematic dad" bullshit. Again, it's just disappointing, but I'm not going to pretend to know the entire situation. Being Japanese, their obsession with Japan is tiring and embarrassing and their merch just disappointing and sad. I'm not angry, just about it. Honestly, as things go on I feel like I'm in a constant cycle of pride and disappointment with Deppy.
thewaytobehappy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:41 pm
I don't doubt you have beautiful intentions, nor do I think your obvious passion towards social justice isn't commendable. I just wish people would be much, much more careful in slapping labels like racist or alt-right on people. Because as I said, with time these words will then lose their meaning, and so I'd rather save them for people that actually deserve them, not a ragegamer.
Look, the thing is you can be too careful. And I think you are. Felix has used racist and anti-semitic language on several occasions and "he's just a ragegamer" doesn't cut it. Felix is using racist language. That's racist. I don't get this fear of labeling racists and nazis exactly what they are. Sometimes I think people are more afraid of admitting something is racist than of racism itself and that's scary. Felix has a massive alt-right following and even if he might not like it (I have no idea what he thinks about it) there's a reason they flock to him. As I've said in an earlier post, he might not think he's racist but he's still using racist language, he's normalising racist behaviour and it appeals to a certain group of people no Youtuber should want to appeal to. I don't know how much realer than actual racist language pdp's racism has to get for you to think the label is deserved but I agree with malday here. It worries me that a white man can go around using racist language with little to no real consequence. It worries me that someone can literally use racist language over and over again and people will still excuse him and criticise others for calling it what it is: racist.
I suppose my threshold is just higher in that regard? I usually look at active alignment and political interests, and I have a high tolerance for moronic remarks no matter what direction they come from. Which would obviously be my issue, and not yours. I don't think we'll fully agree either way,
I actually by coincidence saw the whole alt-right taking an interest in Felix playing out as it happened earlier this year. I wasn't watching him anymore at the time. It was the weirdest thing. I followed a right-wing/libertarian tuber at the time who was as fascinated as I was. I do know Felix definitely didn't invite them though.
rainydays wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm
mmm.. any guesses?
He's selling his soul to the devil for a never-ending supply of coffee and diamonds?
The diamond is obviously an engagement ring, the devil is his future wife Janice, the coffee is mandatory, because all of Phil's tweets must be at least mildly food related.
Long story short, he proposed to Janice and had coffee this morning.
Also the parasocial relationship topic is interesting and intriguing, I'll be looking it up later on. Thanks 
about it. Honestly, as things go on I feel like I'm in a constant cycle of pride and disappointment with Deppy.
