Dan & Phil Part 58: Come in my lady door

[SquishPhan]

Hopefully this means it is up soon, because I really don't want to wait another hour (though I will).

[kuensukki]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

[tigertatze]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

to your post

[alch]

nihilist-toothpaste

Hopefully this means it is up soon, because I really don't want to wait another hour (though I will).

Spooky week is starting!
I honestly don't know why I'm so excited, I'm so bad with horror that I can hardly watch even the most badly made horror movies, and most of the time I find spooky week to be somewhat disappointing save for one or two videos

[lishachi]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

to your post

Thank you!!! Very well said.

[alch]

This year's spooky week decorations are honestly the best ever, they just look really good and I wanted to comment on that fact

[parallel]

love phil's spooky theme, but i'm honestly pretty unhappy with dan's. i have my own personal history with the original 'it' movie that i don't need to get into, but given the character is based on a rapist serial killer, i don't really think it's a good choice for a spooky name.

I mean, it's a fictional character, right? I'll direct you to this:

Dan's not condoning anything the character does. He's just making his profile themed around a scary fictional character?

[jaej]

i'm disappointed but not surprised by this thing because it's so easy to have a predetermined bias on how good a person you associate with is. whether or not someone's considered ~problematic~ isn't always dependent on what they've actually done because people prioritise issues and justify bad things that people they like have done. with things like slurs it's easy to think "oh, that's one word, i know this person and know they've done loads of good things that outweigh it". plenty of the Good People we're supposed to like have said or done pretty horrible things and people just decide whether or not it outdoes why you liked them in the first place. or ignore it, because it's an issue they don't actually care about themselves lmao

d+p have both made many rape jokes over the years but people who like them put them in the Good People box anyway because it was years ago, they weren't that graphic, people have done worse, they're precious babies who said being nice is good so it's okay uwu, etc. they've also made misogynistic comments, racist comments, and generally done a lot of things that users who say "it's not alright but they don't do it now" might not be so kind towards if it was someone they already didn't like, even if the reasons for that were dumb
rihanna's an internet fave Good Person but she's got a huge history of being very anti-asian that people gloss over. beyonce was a Good Person as a gay icon back when she was openly homophobic as fuck before she realised she could rake in that pink money. my sexual abuser is a Good Person even to people who know about it because she posts some tweets about how slut shaming is bad. in the grossest cases, you have things like people defending artists who've done horrible things because they like their art

tl;dr i'm not surprised by d+p not denouncing felix and i'm not surprised that this site is kinder to d+p saying things they'd be far more angry at other people for because bias exists and can mean you're either harsher or kinder than someone objectively deserves

[nephilimcat]

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

Honestly

I have been mostly skipping this conversation (I haven't read a lot of posts either) for this reason but also because too much negativity really takes a toll on me. Besides, I feel like I've said everything I had to say and I understand the disappointment even though I personally do not think it's bad that they went to that party (though I don't think it was good either). Can we please all agree that what pdp did is bad though? I can't believe people are still defending that!

The new video just popped up and I really want to focus on this right now. Obviously, we should talk about these things and I am not saying anyone should ignore it and move on right now but maybe tone it down a notch as it's really gotten out of hand?

[obscureDnPreference]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

to your post

Thank you!!! Very well said.

:respekt:

[lurkin]

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

I've been checking IDB on and off between (and sometimes in) classes today, and was just watching this whole spiral, wondering if I should get involved any more than I already have been. It's actually infuriating how people are trying to delineate from the actual topic. I don't think I could have put it any better than Leela did though.

And as far as us "dragging this out" or "overreacting" and whatever onslaught of complaints about us who are "complaining" I have no problem being that minority about this entire thing.

[VengefulBlue]

love phil's spooky theme, but i'm honestly pretty unhappy with dan's. i have my own personal history with the original 'it' movie that i don't need to get into, but given the character is based on a rapist serial killer, i don't really think it's a good choice for a spooky name.

I mean, it's a fictional character, right? I'll direct you to this:

Dan's not condoning anything the character does. He's just making his profile themed around a scary fictional character?

i know, but i'm still disappointed. just like i know that going a birthday party isn't condoning racist behavior, but i'm still vaguely disappointed about seeing the group pics. i didn't expect him to do differently, but both his friend and the character have unfortunate histories and connotations. and tbf, a lot of my feelings about it are probably coming from my unstated 'personal history' with the movie/character (without getting into it, both were connected to childhood abuse). so i def don't think it's like, the end of the world, i just wish he would have picked any of the other spooky names.

[obscureDnPreference]

The first thing I noticed is that they didn't turn off the lights.

[katemko]

10 minutes in and there's already uncomfortable-sounding moaning. it's spooky week, y'all.

[SquishPhan]

That was a great start to Spooky Week.
This game was actually pretty creepy.

[nephilimcat]

They actually played a game I already knew, that's rare. It's a good start, a game that's actually interesting and creepy, especially because they seemed really into it :bigthumbsup: Now I'm just waiting for them to not ever finish it ...

[parallel]

- "It's a scary, bleak world, like the one I live in inside my mind." I love Dan
- Dan saying Lester
- "Who would want to poo next to each other?"
- Salad Fingers. Nice.
- "his massive clock"
- thicc nightmares

Generally I loved that video! Their chemistry was lovely, plus it was helped by the fact that the game seemed really good and I like spooky week in general.

And, VengefulBlue, that's understandable if you're uncomfortable with it. Sorry if I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying there was something morally wrong with Dan setting his profile to Pennywise.

[Light02]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

I'm not at all saying that the n-word isn't bad or that Pdp can say it because people in some countries still use it. I already clarified in my last post that my whole point is about hypocrisy in society and by extension, within the Phandom. I'm pointing out that there are different standarts applied to different issues and words based on the culture/country/time period. I'm saying that people in society "caring" about a certain issue but not about a similar one almost seems manifactured and seems to only occur when a certain oppressed group finally starts rebelling against their oppressors to the point where the oppressors just want to shut them up and that's why they stop using a certain slur. Not out of care for the affected. They also keep using other harmful words directed at demographics that aren't in the position to speak up against it yet. This is hypocrisy, this is what I'm talking about. Misogyny is just an example I'm using. The way this relates to D&P being friends with Felix is that I've seen a lot of people considering whether their should unstan D&P just because they associate with a racist but Dan himself saying a misogynistic slur seems to be not that big of a deal for a lot of people for some reason? So what if he said it as a joke? It's still sexist. Anyways, this is a very clear example of hypocrisy within the Phandom.

Also, I personally think it's okay to derail conversations to talk about different issues. The whole discussion of racism is still there, right? I'm now just turning it into a discussion of double standarts. And I actually agree that "hoe" isn't as bad as the n-word, but again, Dan saying that word was just an example. I could just as easily talk about his (actually their) use of ableist language as well. Most of the things you said about the history of the n-word can be said as well about the word "stupid" and the historical oppression of disabled people. To this day, disabled children get murdered by their parents (as a "mercy" killing) and get praised in the media for it. If someone rapes a disabled person in court they get sued as if they have raped an animal because disabled people are not seen as human. In the US disabled people are not legally allowed to marry one another. And so on. I'll link to that post again, in case you didn't read it, if you're interested in other major hardships the disabled community faces.

http://thediscourseblogs.tumblr.com/pos ... tual-thing

My whole point is this - if you are outraged/very dissapointed by D&P merely associating with a racist, you should feel the same way about D&P doing other problematic things, like themselves using the word "stupid". Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. Just because racist slurs are widely recognized and ableist ones are not does not make it okay to excuse one and not the other. If you care about social justice you should care about intersectionality as well

Also, I'm sorry but it's pretty late where I live and I have to go to bed. I'll probably respond to other people tomorrow.

[obsessivelymoody]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

this is everything. i wish there was a like button because I would smash the hell out of it.

Also can people stop reaching to make Dan look like a terrible person because you're pissed others are hurt because of their association with pdp who is very much known for being a harmful douchebag. Please have a little compassion and listen to others, I honestly cannot stress that enough. Tbh I'm sick of all these excuses and deviations from the subject because people are uncomfortable. Discomfort is what helps us move along as a society, and to be better.

[citizen_erased]

I loved this video, what a good start to Spooky Week The game is creepy af, but man, I was hooked. I was already pretty hyped about both Spooky Week and Halloween in general but now I'm even more excited for what's coming up.

The moaning bit was so weird though

[Ewok]

Well that game thoroughly freaked me the fuck out, we're off to a strong start of spooky week.


I watched it on my TV for ~maximum immersion~ and DAMN. I was screeching and backing up into my couch every time those hands came after them. Oh my god. I don't think I've ever had such a physical reaction to a scary game. This was so good!

[nephilimcat]

I think i misunderstood sth just ignore this post, i am sleep deprived, sorry

[flarequake]

That was a really good video. I also wondered straight away why they didn’t turn the lights off. Maybe so their hardcore decorations wouldn’t instantly be invisible. I love the game and the little character in her raincoat. It seems to be an orphanage setting maybe? I could feel their stress trying to get away in time, but I didn’t find it scary, though I never do tbh. The monkey with the cymbals instantly reminded me of the Phantom of the Opera. It’s the sort of game I’d be up for trying myself, but I’ll probably watch Jack play it instead, the stress tends to make me ragequit.

[blackdenim]

I really enjoyed that video! What a creepy game. I love horror games and never usually find the ones they play that scary (I would love for them to play the original Silent Hill - one of my all time favourites) but this was ace!

[coffeepenguin]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.

With all due respect, first of all, this is a public forum where many different people participate in the discussion and sometimes without reading the whole of it, which is ok, this is the nature of a forum, so you can't really tell people what types of arguments and comparisons they can and cannot make, as long as they stay civil and abide by the rules.

kuensukki made an argument (and continued to do so, and was supported by others) that people (especially white people) in the phandom don't care as much about race as they do about mental health and gay rights. I don't particularly agree with the way the sexism/misogyny comparison was then brought up, as well as with the relevance of that comparison, for the reasons I expressed in my previous post, but it's still worth being discussed, like every other topic. As for the great "what minority have suffered the most abuse in the history of the universe" olympics, I'll take a wild guess and say we'll never find out because most probably they've been completely wiped out from any kind of history as a result.

Also, weren't you the one who were taking about how the feelings of the people who are hurt should matter the most? I'm sorry, I honestly am, I know everyone wants to be done with this conversation, and I do respect you a lot, but I am very, very much bothered by your comment. Unlike you, I literally have, like, one friend in the phandom (probably, for a good reason) and no followers whatsoever, so my opinion doesn't interest anyone and I should just continue to lurk like I've been doing for the last couple of months, I'll most likely start regretting this post already in a couple of hours, but why can't we make this comparison, really? The argument is not "Dan and Phil make sexist comments, so they should be given a pass when they socialize privately with a racist without publicly condemning him", the argument is "phandom doesn't talk about racism much, but it doesn't talk about misogyny much either, and when it does, everyone is uncomfortable, so if we want to have these conversations, maybe we should look at the reasons behind this and it's a broader issue than just everybody's racist". Sorry again, I'll shut up now.