Dan & Phil Part 58: Come in my lady door

[captainspacecoat]

I have to say I completely understand and respect the position expressed by kuensukki and others about the need to address those issues and how it is unfortunate that people jump on board every time there is a queerbaiting discourse, yet everyone is uncomfortable talking about race. The problem is it IS uncomfortable talking about race, especially if you're white and live in a racist society (like many of us here, as showed by some answers to this very question in previous thread). For many people (and many of them white), phandom is their safe space, they don't want it to be uncomfortable (sometimes, they actively resist it, as we've just seen). Dan and Phil, too, want their channels to be a safe space, that's basically been their only thing for the last three years. Coincidentally, they are also white, while the topic of gender/sexuality (whatever your opinion on their orientation is) and mental health are entirely relevant to them. This is a painful process, is all I'm saying.

You're right, but my issue with this is that yes it is uncomfortable as white people to talk about race, but we just have to get the fuck over it. Because our feelings and our comfort do not matter at all in this situation. What about the comfort of people who aren't white? Shouldn't the phandom be a safe space for them too? I couldn't care less about whether or not Dan and Phil feel uncomfortable talking about race - I presume they probably do but the only way to get past that is to talk about it, to acknowledge their privilege, to work toward creating a space in which POC feel safe and wanted and listened to and welcome. I'm sure they do feel more comfortable talking about sexuality and mental health as those are two issues which apply to them personally, but that's not good enough. It can't just be up to POC to talk about race issues, and to condemn racism in the youtube community. White youtubers and their subscribers also need to step up to the plate and nip racism in the bud, keep each other in check, actively work to unlearn racism etc. It's just not an excuse at this point, and Dan and Phil's feelings are the least important of anyone's with regards to this issue.

In other news, I still haven't watched the liveshow but I think I'm going to now. I feel icky about it so who knows whether I'll make it through, but here goes nothing I guess

[flarequake]

No mention of the party at all leaves an uneasy feeling for me and I hadn’t been too bothered before, partly been too wrapped up in my own worries, but I’ve been thinking about it more. Spoiler because this’ll get long and I’m repeating a lot of stuff.

I’m Jewish and white, and have never had any direct anti-semitism, but was somewhat traumatised at the age of 7 being told about the holocaust (I was too young and sensitive to believe any reassurance about it happening again), have seen the family tree with 1 of 13 siblings surviving WW2 and so on. There’s been a rise in anti-Semitic attacks, I think more in America than the UK, but it’s happening.

I don’t know that pdp is racist rather than stupid etc, though the n-word slipping out is too much to believe and he could have changed his content by now and apologised far better, or used a brain to edit the anti-Semitic clip out if he didn’t have enough sense or sensitivity to never think of it in the first place. I used to watch a few of his vlogs and liked him, I was touched by his openness in cross-dressing and his frankness addressing how much he earns, and Marzia seems sweet, but now I mostly ignore them. I was proud of Jack speaking up until he got manipulated back in, that was infuriating.

I love PJ too and I’m all for people having their lives and friendships. I don’t feel I can compare personally as I’ve not had friends who suddenly showed true colours in this way, though my dad wasn’t great in some private opinions despite having some Asian and black friends, but I was always happy to tell him off as was my mum. I don’t think I could remain friends with someone like that, though. I’d need to be able to discuss it with them and for them to realise and change, or drop them.

I believe Dan and Phil are aware of things enough even if Phil never says much, so then it’s that we don’t know what they’re thinking about any of this or us, beyond Dan saying he’d have a talk and being subtle not saying pdp’s name. Maybe they don’t like him anymore but were there for Marzia, PJ and Sophie, maybe they do still like him cos they know that isn’t who he really is. I feel distant from them, though, like I should remember not to let them into my head and heart too much.

Maybe Deps haven’t seen any of this discussion here, but I kept an eye on the liveshow chat and there were 8-10 “how was Marzia’s birthday?” One in all-caps and one person saying they were disappointed. The rest were just asking with no hint of anything wrong. One time someone asked, they both went a bit quiet and sat back a bit, I noticed it more in Phil, though it may not have been due to seeing that at all. Still, they always say something about going to a party like that so

Otherwise it was a fun liveshow, though I wanted to intervene on Phil’s behalf and shush Dan. I was glad Phil pushed him out of shot and kept saying that Dan was doing it again, funny he didn’t remember the “can Phil express an opinion?”, it’s iconic, but mostly for us.

Dan totally spoiled one of the shows or films, I forget which. IMAX trailer story was cute. As for popcorn, I think you can get a fricking bucket of it at some cinemas, I don’t know how much they can eat in 3 hours

Phil with those marshmallows was funny, he could have used one to shut Dan up. I didn’t catch what happened when he put a half-bitten one down and Dan freaked out. I guess the sticky bitten bit touched something. Piqued my curiosity for what they’re making in the baking, but it doesn’t look like they’ll have many left. Most food bags are a third air to start with, but that was still a big bag, I hope Phil hadn’t eaten all of them in the same day. Burgers story was funny too, no wonder they feel a bit sick. I’ve never seen that show or want to.

[000dia000]

It's funny to the chain reaction, that one person says "I don't care, I think it's okay. People are overreacting." Then a lot more posters come out to support. Lmao.

I'm not going near any other online part of the phandom, but if it's as bad and dismissive as people are saying, then I've truly lost all hope. It's fascinating how people are able to criticize another youtuber when are they are on the outside looking in, but whenever something happens to a youtuber they are actively involved with, then suddenly everything becomes "grey" and "why should we judge them?" Blah blah blah. I mean, we don't have to have a witch hunt against deppy, but seriously, can't people just acknowledge that they've fucked up? They don't have to be /perfect/ I know that, and I'm not going to demonize them, but they certainly don't need any defense or protection. They've made these choices, nobody forced them to go to the party. They had autonomous control over their actions and behaviours, and they've shown a spineless side of themselves I don't like. Thats it. It's so simple. I don't even get how people can disagree with that fact, but here people are.

[coffeepenguin]

I have to say I completely understand and respect the position expressed by kuensukki and others about the need to address those issues and how it is unfortunate that people jump on board every time there is a queerbaiting discourse, yet everyone is uncomfortable talking about race. The problem is it IS uncomfortable talking about race, especially if you're white and live in a racist society (like many of us here, as showed by some answers to this very question in previous thread). For many people (and many of them white), phandom is their safe space, they don't want it to be uncomfortable (sometimes, they actively resist it, as we've just seen). Dan and Phil, too, want their channels to be a safe space, that's basically been their only thing for the last three years. Coincidentally, they are also white, while the topic of gender/sexuality (whatever your opinion on their orientation is) and mental health are entirely relevant to them. This is a painful process, is all I'm saying.

You're right, but my issue with this is that yes it is uncomfortable as white people to talk about race, but we just have to get the fuck over it. Because our feelings and our comfort do not matter at all in this situation. What about the comfort of people who aren't white? Shouldn't the phandom be a safe space for them too? I couldn't care less about whether or not Dan and Phil feel uncomfortable talking about race - I presume they probably do but the only way to get past that is to talk about it, to acknowledge their privilege, to work toward creating a space in which POC feel safe and wanted and listened to and welcome. I'm sure they do feel more comfortable talking about sexuality and mental health as those are two issues which apply to them personally, but that's not good enough. It can't just be up to POC to talk about race issues, and to condemn racism in the youtube community. White youtubers and their subscribers also need to step up to the plate and nip racism in the bud, keep each other in check, actively work to unlearn racism etc. It's just not an excuse at this point, and Dan and Phil's feelings are the least important of anyone's with regards to this issue.

Look, I mostly agree with you (but not with the part where deppy's feelings are the least important, sorry), I was just giving an opinion on WHY I think this is happening, not on WHAT WE SHOULD DO about it. I believe that to achieve a goal, first we have to understand what the potential barriers are and how to address it. In my experience, whatever the issue is (racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism), if you just say "you have to get over yourself", it achieves nothing. Maybe your experience is different, if so I'm very jealous.

[blackdenim]

It's funny to the chain reaction, that one person says "I don't care, I think it's okay. People are overreacting." Then a lot more posters come out to support. Lmao.

I'm not going near any other online part of the phandom, but if it's as bad and dismissive as people are saying, then I've truly lost all hope. It's fascinating how people are able to criticize another youtuber when are they are on the outside looking in, but whenever something happens to a youtuber they are actively involved with, then suddenly everything becomes "grey" and "why should we judge them?" Blah blah blah. I mean, we don't have to have a witch hunt against deppy, but seriously, can't people just acknowledge that they've fucked up? They don't have to be /perfect/ I know that, and I'm not going to demonize them, but they certainly don't need any defense or protection. They've made these choices, nobody forced them to go to the party. They had autonomous control over their actions and behaviours, and they've shown a spineless side of themselves I don't like. Thats it. It's so simple. I don't even get how people can disagree with that fact, but here people are.

Yep! If D&P had never had any kind of relationship with Felix, or just ceased having one after the controversies, there's no way people in the Phandom would be defending him. It just feels like folk don't want to accept their faves aren't perfect pure beings and to do that they're making the mental reach that Felix isn't racist and/or it's not bad for D&P to associate with him... that's so weird to me!

At the crux of it, it just seems like Dan and Phil are being a bit selfish: they probably look up to Felix and like having him as a friend (who doesn't like having rich, successful, 'funny' friends!?) and don't want to give that up to make a stand on an issue that doesn't actually affect them directly.

It's sad that they're not as principled as we thought they were or wanted them to but, but it's also human nature. And to be honest I'd have a lot more respect if they/Dan just said 'I know Felix has said some terrible things but it's not something I want to end a friendship with him over and that's the last thing I'm going to say about it.' instead of half-assing pretending he wasn't really going to spend that much time with him and was going to 'have a talk' and then trying to distract us from thinking about it all too much with a joint LS and Spooky Week.

I know D&P and Alex Day weren't ever really best friends but I do wonder how everyone saying people are overreacting now would have felt if they had continued to have a relationship with him after all the allegations came out a few years ago. He might not have had Felix's sub numbers, but he was a respected and influential YouTuber that everyone (rightly) dropped when allegations came to light. I think there'd be a lot more outrage and a lot less justification if D&P had been photographed with him shortly afterwards. But I suppose it just shows that being abusive towards white women is seen as a far worse thing than being abusive towards POC amongst the general YouTube audience.

EDIT: I just read this back and the last sentence seems overly snarky I mean that they're equally as bad obviously and that if you're going to be outraged by one (as most people were in 2014 with Alex Day, Sam Pepper, etc) you should be outraged by both.

[Ilovethemohyesido]

Phil with those marshmallows was funny, he could have used one to shut Dan up. I didn’t catch what happened when he put a half-bitten one down and Dan freaked out. I guess the sticky bitten bit touched something. Piqued my curiosity for what they’re making in the baking, but it doesn’t look like they’ll have many left. Most food bags are a third air to start with, but that was still a big bag, I hope Phil hadn’t eaten all of them in the same day. Burgers story was funny too, no wonder they feel a bit sick. I’ve never seen that show or want to.

Well there's a dessert with marshmellow, Halloween-themed but required very little baking. OTOH there's one that's ridiculously messy where they turn marshmallow into an spider's web.

[MythicalPinkTrashCan]

I haven’t commented on the PDP stuff mostly because I know I’m not fully informed on a lot of things, but I will post a this related life story of mine:

My Aunt is a super racist, homophobic, transphobic, trump loving, bible thumbed, rebulican Mormon. She stands on the side of everything I hate. I also am photographed with her often-ish because she is my grandmother’s sister and she shows up at parties/events. Does it mean I agree with what she says? Of course not! But I’m not gonna let her presences ruin my fun of seeing the rest of my family.

I am not a famous YouTuber, so who I’m photographed with doesn’t matter as much, but I do feel like this could be slightly similar situations.

[parallel]

Honestly? I don't dislike Felix.

*waits for the pitchforks*

I don't think he's responsible if his audience can't differentiate between mocking racists (which is what this brand of humour is) and being racist. And before you call me white or whatever, I'm not. I think that saying certain words would be distasteful, but not morally wrong—words only have the weight you give them, and there's no point in sending lynch mobs after someone who jokingly said the N word with no racist intent. The word practically holds no modern meaning—yes, it has historical connotation, but that's the past. The only meaning it has is the meaning we give it as a society, which is "hurr if you say it you're a bigot". You have the personal choice to be offended or not; sure, if you've had it used against you personally, I can completely understand being uncomfortable about it. In that case, ignore people who say it casually and associate with other people. It's like victims of abuse or rape might want to avoid circumstances where abuse or rape is brought up—in the same vein, people who have been harassed by being called names can easily avoid seeing those words elsewhere. If it's in a harmless context, I don't see the problem with it, honestly.

What I find a little annoying is a bunch of white Phannies claiming to know what every single non-white person thinks.

But, anyway, if you want to unstan because of this, I think it's 100% in your right, but I won't and this wouldn't be a reason for my view of Deppy to be damaged. I think that you can unsub/unstan/whatever for any reason, including this, and I don't condone people who say that people who are unstanning are invalid. Freedom of speech and action and all that stuff.

And no, as I said above I don't think Felix is a bad person, so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he wouldn't out Dan and Phil. Everything he's said so far has either been in the heat of the moment with an apology or a complete joke, and I wouldn't class any of those things as being as vile as purposefully outing someone especially with an audience as... significant as the Phandom. He doesn't have anything to lose if Dan and Phil speak out against him or at least stop associating with him. Their audiences don't seem to intersect that much, and even those who do watch both won't stop watching PDP just because Dan and Phil stop publically associating with him. And I think the picture is as far as it would go; Dan and Phil don't seem like the type to want to hang around Felix, but who knows. Either way, I'm not unstanning.

[plath]

Honestly? I don't dislike Felix.

*waits for the pitchforks*

I don't think he's responsible if his audience can't differentiate between mocking racists (which is what this brand of humour is) and being racist. And before you call me white or whatever, I'm not. I think that saying certain words would be distasteful, but not morally wrong—words only have the weight you give them, and there's no point in sending lynch mobs after someone who jokingly said the N word with no racist intent. The word practically holds no modern meaning—yes, it has historical connotation, but that's the past. The only meaning it has is the meaning we give it as a society, which is "hurr if you say it you're a bigot". You have the personal choice to be offended or not; sure, if you've had it used against you personally, I can completely understand being uncomfortable about it. In that case, ignore people who say it casually and associate with other people. It's like victims of abuse or rape might want to avoid circumstances where abuse or rape is brought up—in the same vein, people who have been harassed by being called names can easily avoid seeing those words elsewhere. If it's in a harmless context, I don't see the problem with it, honestly.

What I find a little annoying is a bunch of white Phannies claiming to know what every single non-white person thinks.

But, anyway, if you want to unstan because of this, I think it's 100% in your right, but I won't and this wouldn't be a reason for my view of Deppy to be damaged. I think that you can unsub/unstan/whatever for any reason, including this, and I don't condone people who say that people who are unstanning are invalid. Freedom of speech and action and all that stuff.

And no, as I said above I don't think Felix is a bad person, so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he wouldn't out Dan and Phil. Everything he's said so far has either been in the heat of the moment with an apology or a complete joke, and I wouldn't class any of those things as being as vile as purposefully outing someone especially with an audience as... significant as the Phandom. He doesn't have anything to lose if Dan and Phil speak out against him or at least stop associating with him. Their audiences don't seem to intersect that much, and even those who do watch both won't stop watching PDP just because Dan and Phil stop publically associating with him. And I think the picture is as far as it would go; Dan and Phil don't seem like the type to want to hang around Felix, but who knows. Either way, I'm not unstanning.

I think we have incredibly opposite viewpoints on this issue so there's a lot here I don't feel would be productive to discuss, but I just wanted to pick up on this one point you made - I don't think I've seen anyone claim to know what every single non-white person thinks? I might have missed something, though - if you could link me to a post where someone's done that, I'd be happy to take a look?

Obviously, white people should not and must not talk over PoC on this topic. No white person should tell PoC what they should or should not be offended by. But I do feel like it's white people's responsibility to call out and question the racism of other white people. It's not PoC's job to do this. Racism comes from white people, after all. If white people are silent on this issue, then that silence is interpreted as tacitly condoning this behaivour. It places a huge burden on PoC and removes the responsibility from the actual perpetrators of racial violence (white people) to take responsibility for their actions. If a white person, in this case Felix, fucks up, it is the responsibility of other white people (Dan and Phil, white phannies, white viewers etc.) to call it out. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[captainspacecoat]

Honestly? I don't dislike Felix.

I think that saying certain words would be distasteful, but not morally wrong—words only have the weight you give them, and there's no point in sending lynch mobs after someone who jokingly said the N word with no racist intent. The word practically holds no modern meaning—yes, it has historical connotation, but that's the past. The only meaning it has is the meaning we give it as a society, which is "hurr if you say it you're a bigot". You have the personal choice to be offended or not; sure, if you've had it used against you personally, I can completely understand being uncomfortable about it. In that case, ignore people who say it casually and associate with other people.

I honestly don't really know what to say to this, beyond: words don't just lose meaning. The meaning we as a society have given that word is one of violent racism/white supremacy. That word was invented by white people to keep black people subordinate, and to dehumanise them, and to justify their oppression. Don't put the responsibility on black people as to whether or not they should make the "personal choice" to be offended by it, or tell them they should just ignore it. Also, your point about sending lynch mobs after someone for saying the n word is wildly tone deaf given who lynch mobs have historically tended to go after. Also, what @plath said.

Changing pace, I watched the liveshow and didn't perceive any tension between them at all. If none of this Felix controversy was going on, I would have shamelessly loved it and my little trash heart would be beating away happily. And I hate that there were times where I momentarily forgot my bitterness and got swept up in it all, because they were being so cute and telling sweet domestic stories. I'm still working out how best to balance all of this. I will never forgive or forget this, and I'm going to keep working to hold them accountable, but I think that ultimately I've come to the decision that I am going to stick around, just more critical and less forgiving than ever.

[parallel]

I think we have incredibly opposite viewpoints on this issue so there's a lot here I don't feel would be productive to discuss, but I just wanted to pick up on this one point you made - I don't think I've seen anyone claim to know what every single non-white person thinks? I might have missed something, though - if you could link me to a post where someone's done that, I'd be happy to take a look?

Obviously, white people should not and must not talk over PoC on this topic. No white person should tell PoC what they should or should not be offended by. But I do feel like it's white people's responsibility to call out and question the racism of other white people. It's not PoC's job to do this. Racism comes from white people, after all. If white people are silent on this issue, then that silence is interpreted as tacitly condoning this behaivour. It places a huge burden on PoC and removes the responsibility from the actual perpetrators of racial violence (white people) to take responsibility for their actions. If a white person, in this case Felix, fucks up, it is the responsibility of other white people (Dan and Phil, white phannies, white viewers etc.) to call it out. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

If I didn't want to discuss things, I wouldn't have posted it on a discussion forum! I'm 100% up for changing my opinion and have done in the past, but I'm not going to do so without any reason. But fair enough, here's some examples of people saying that POC as an entire group disagree with Deppy hanging out with Felix:

"[...] to work toward creating a space in which POC feel safe and wanted and listened to and welcome." Implying that POC wouldn't feel safe or wanted otherwise, i.e. implying our viewpoints on things.

"the world in general tires to silence poc and brush over racial issues by telling us that we're too sensitive and need to calm down or how not everything is about race" Again, saying that your opinion is shared by all POC.

"dnp are just there to have fun with marzia and pj, but when POC, who are affected by the negative language that felix uses"

"And I’m frustrated with phandom because this is an honest real world type of issue that impacts POC in fandoms"

"part of being a loving and supportive fandom means listening to the POC within the fandom when they’re upset over something and not silencing their voice out of the need to defend Dan and Phil." (and though I agree with the statement, it's implying that all POC have this view)

Just a few, if I searched through the old thread I'm sure I'd find a lot more. I'm just a little tired of being told what I think and being coddled, because that's what it feels like tbh.

Edit:

I honestly don't really know what to say to this, beyond: words don't just lose meaning. The meaning we as a society have given that word is one of violent racism/white supremacy. That word was invented by white people to keep black people subordinate, and to dehumanise them, and to justify their oppression. Don't put the responsibility on black people as to whether or not they should make the "personal choice" to be offended by it, or tell them they should just ignore it. Also, your point about sending lynch mobs after someone for saying the n word is wildly tone deaf given who lynch mobs have historically tended to go after. Also, what @plath said.

Words don't lose meaning, but if people are starting to say it in a non-racist context where others don't perceive it as racist, that means the word isn't necessarily racist and then depends on context. It's hardly ever used in a racist context nowadays and meanings of words change. Language evolves, and now the N word (not hard R) is just a modern slang term.

Being offended is a personal choice, though. I'm not a majority in any sense of the word and I know what it's like for people to say dumb shit about your identity or your race or your gender or whatever. I just ignore it and move on, or educate people if they sound like they want to listen. Getting upset and overthinking is in your control, and if you don't like it? Don't watch/listen/whatever.

[alittledizzy]

I'm not going near any other online part of the phandom, but if it's as bad and dismissive as people are saying, then I've truly lost all hope. It's fascinating how people are able to criticize another youtuber when are they are on the outside looking in, but whenever something happens to a youtuber they are actively involved with, then suddenly everything becomes "grey" and "why should we judge them?" Blah blah blah. I mean, we don't have to have a witch hunt against deppy, but seriously, can't people just acknowledge that they've fucked up? They don't have to be /perfect/ I know that, and I'm not going to demonize them, but they certainly don't need any defense or protection. They've made these choices, nobody forced them to go to the party.They had autonomous control over their actions and behaviours, and they've shown a spineless side of themselves I don't like. Thats it. It's so simple. I don't even get how people can disagree with that fact, but here people are.

This is exactly where I stand on it right now.

And in fact, I don't see anyone on this forum or anywhere actually demonizing them for it; people trying to defend Dan and Phil (and Felix) seem to be reaching the response in the harshest light possible to try and make people with negative reactions look unreasonable when the consistent message being put through is just: I don't like this, I'm disappointed.

[mermaid blood]

this was a weird liveshow for me to timestamp. It's like one half of me really enjoyed it and was delighted at how impromptu and affectionate (particularly Phil? which I find curious) they were; and the other half was totally distracted by disappointment. that they didn't even so much as mention socialising with Felix and Marzia. No matter how you feel about his behaviour as a man, and their choice (I personally do not respect it, but I - so far anyway- still respect them): they avoided something fairly serious, causing hurt and alienation in large sections of their audience, when instead saying *anything* would have benefited the dialogue much more. I truly don't believe they have malice in their hearts, but their self-serving priorities left a bitter taste in my mouth on this one. I think I don't even understand how they are self-serving, at the end of the day, as the dude has made so many gay punchlines in his content (including one with Pj!) that they surely don't feel respected by the man when it comes down to it. confusing. edit: ignoring the fact they should and can care about racial issues, not only their own discrimination; sorry that sentence made it seem like because they're white this topic can't be self-serving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPbH1eb8oMs

1.10 - phil: 'for the lads'
1.50 - dan: there it is, the big orange butthole.
phil: it feels like we're looking at something a bit dirty
dan: yeah we're looking straight up his air chute.
phil: i need to put my hand in there.
3.10 - phil: show me, your marshmallussy
dan: [...]
5.45 - they were approached to make a game, initially it was going to be about death. phil had a game he already played with people, says the reason dans name is on the box is because he molded it into what it is.
7.55 - dan didn't want their names on the box.
8.35 - (dan to phil) you are a bit golem-y, irl.
9.09 - dan: spoiled milk...you're welcome for that one, phil. you do look like spoiled milk, lets be real.
9.34 - phil: i'll answer this one about you. what is the first thing they do in the morning? ...look for the first item of black clothing nearby. what about me? [small smile]
dan: (cop out cereal meme)
10.24 - phil: who would they choose to be their side-kick?
dan: umm...
phil: i'd choose you Dan. you can be my side-kick.
[both laugh]
dan: [flustered] it doesn't all have to be violent roasting. it can just be...it can just be nice.
11.07 - phil: if they were a sauce, what would it be?
dan: phil? tartare sauce.
phil: tartare sauce?! why? cause of the colour?
dan: very white, a bit green. goes with fish.
11.30 - phil: guys, you answer this about Dan, what sauce would Dan be? (why does phil avoid saying things about dan? this is not the first time).
phil: lauren says hot sauce.
phil: hailey said radish because no one likes it. ouch!
13.44 - phil strokes dan's fluffy jumper shoulder
16.00 - cute banter about ordering junk food traditions
16.50 - dan twists and stretches his neck around, making an old man face. welcome to the wrong side of your twenties dan. join us. meanwhile Phil doesn't love Riverdale.
17.43 - phil bought himself a topman stranger things jumper.
18.38 dan brought home limited edition vampire frappucino for them both. in depth discussion of vampire flavours
19.17 - phil to dan: that's a good description.
21.30 - spooky week discussion
22.42 - dan: finn wolfhard?! that is not his real name. that is disgusting.
23.35 - favourite horror movies. phil prefers fun ones. dan, demonic and traumatising.
25.10 - phil to dan: calm down!
25.22 - dan: we'll see how long it takes me to edit.
25.35 - phil: did you see the name of the album is called flicker? but if you kind of blur your eyes it does look like something else, i'm just saying. [looks at dan with his chin on the back of his hand, pursed lips, campy]
26.17 - (phil reading chat) 'stop saying Niall, you're making me quiver'. sorry (?) elinda...[laughs]
dan: ......yikes
phil: i don't think anything's ever made me quiver.
dan: buffy made you quiver a lot, phil.
phil: buffy...just the show, in general.
dan: you quivered for gellar.
phil: (making it into a joke) gellar-quivs. byeee [hides off screen] why do i do liveshows? i dont know, because i say things like gellar-quivs...
dan: i'm really upset.
(I don't believe sarah michelle gellar made you quiver at all, phil)
27.44 - phil reads a comment from chat about dan being a snake and looks at dan smiling
27.55 - dan doesn't think the main character of rogue one was very charismatic and he and phil thought the movie was a bit boring.
28.04 - phil: dan cried! (at the trailer). [dan immediately embarrassed, tenses up]
dan: ok ok, this is like a whole thing...
28.10 - dan precedes to interrupt phil multiple times
28.33 - phil: oh my god dan, you're doing it on purpose! [pushes dan off camera, leaves his hands on his shoulder/arm, lingering]
28.48 - dan interrupts again, reading out a chat comment that says don't interrupt phil.
phil: [laughing] you've done it again, you've done it again
28.57 - dan imitating angry star wars fans in the chat, does sassy finger click and head wobble. unironically. super camp. bashful, goes silent.
Phil pushes/touches him again and re-starts the story
29.45 - phil: actual crying! (delighted, grinning)
30.33 - phil: everyone's saying 'can phil express an opinion'' - i did, i got there in the end.
dan: that's a reference.
phil: oooh...
(NB: when Dan grabbed Shay Carl's microphone at a 2014 panel because everyone was talking over Phil)
20.46 - blade runner
31.05 - phil puts giant marshmallow in mouth whole
dan: look at this guy.
31.55 - dan disgusted at phil putting his saliva-y marshmallow on the table. dan: ewwwrrgh!
domestic banter about movie snacks and their habits. phil paid for dan's snacks too.
33.23 - phil: [completely seriously] i think it's going to induce more ryan gosling dreams for me. (PHIL ATTRACTION ALERT?)
35.05 - pottermore banter.
dan: phil is the absolute epitome of a hufflepuff.
phil: [softly] am I?
dan: [equally softly] yeah, you know that.
36.12 - phil didn't think It Comes At Night was scary. Insidious was. dan think it's cheesy. phil: it's just not my kind of horror.
dan: Insidious was fun because it has that lady in it that i like.
phil: yeah, the funny one.
39.15 - stream crashes, phil refreshes the page. (audio only, video not synched from here on out).
dan: you refreshed it? what is going to happen to the youtube upload?!
phil: I don't know?
dan: you don't know?!!
39.33 - pregnancy collab with louise was 'pretty good'.
dan: perineal massages.
phil: no.
phil: doulas.
dan: doulas. that's what you can't do. you can't be a doula. i can't give any massages.
(uhhh....what is this banter? it feels transparently cryptic. why can't phil be a doula? and why can't dan give a massage to his future pregnant wife? ahem.)

Spooky week starts tomorrow. then spooky baking. dan hasn't had any of the marshmallows, presumably holds up packet to phil to shame him, but no video only audio. frustrating.

[misakichan274]

Its been a tough couple of months IRL so I haven't been as caught up with the forum as I'd like to have been, but since last week, its been an extremely comforting and thought provoking space to come to. Many others have eloquently and beautifully articulated thoughts about Felix and dnp's associations with him much better than I could possibly hope to articulate, so thank you.

[Hide=] As a queer poc who's been living in the western, white centric English speaking world since only a couple of years, there have been more instances than I can count of discrimination on the grounds of race, ethnicity and religion. For my mental health, I had to develop a thicker skin and consequently boundaries for myself in terms of comfort and tolerance. I unfortunately had to accept that one of the ways I found easier to deal with this was not expect much from people (e.g. strangers and acquaintances) as I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than betrayed. Dnp, among a few other white youtubers I watch, fell into this category for me. I did not start off thinking of them as woke or vocally conscious of racial issues and rather as some inaccessible rich white dudes whose lives I grew to care about a lot. While I really appreciated their recent (somewhat) openness to discuss/ support politics, mental health and LGBTQ+ issues, it never seemed like racial and religious issues would be addressed in the same way. And maybe since they have the privilege to not personally relate to those, they never felt pressured or responsible to do so, which sucks for us but oh well.

Basically, silence, or an occasionally inclusive statement is what I've come to expect as a poc viewer. When the pdp thing first blew up a few months ago and the only word we got acknowledging the matter was Dan calling him their 'problematic dad' I was more taken aback than with the recent events tbh. I was quite disappointed with their silence when other influential youtubers, including Felix's friends spoke up about it, explaining their stance. As that never happened, I more or less gave up on hoping they would be vocal about it. Reading so many accounts of people who felt hurt and affected by it was incredibly heart warming as I realised it was okay to feel hurt and that it means something that dan and phil let so many of their viewers down. It was so lovely to see that I am not alone and that I am justified in being disappointed/ angry at them lol.

But following this, its going to take me even longer to actually expect differently from them. I am still going to consume their content, with some pointed distance, but reflection and many of your thoughts have encouraged me to not let them get off too easy.[/Hide]


This forum has been a very welcoming and the most civil platform to discussing this and I can only request people to remember that the world is a huge place with diverse people who feel and react differently. Being mindful of others' feelings regardless of yours will not hurt you (or dnp).

[susan2]

I'm not confident enough to be able to express my thoughts and feelings on all of this, but I'm so grateful for everyone here for the important discussion - thank you

- - -

I spent (far too long!) last night counting up the game suggestions for Spooky Week in the comments responding to Phil's Facebook post. If anybody is interested (in my unscientific, best-effort analysis!), 8 hours after he'd posted the most requested games were... ;ghost;

1. Bendy and the Ink Machine
2. Little Nightmares
3. Until Dawn
4. Outlast / Outlast 2 / Outlast Whistleblower
5. Layers of Fear
6. Fran Bow
7. Resident Evil 7 / Biohazard
8. Sims
9. Friday the 13th
10. Amnesia
(also highly requested were: Emily wants to Play, Yandere Simulator, Silent Hill, Hello Neighbor, Golf with Friends, FNAF, Spooky's House of Jumpscares, Mad Father, Ib, and various Slendermans)

[autumnhearth]

Now, I have a question for all of you who wanted deppy to address the party thing. Some people were ok with them continuing socializing with Felix in private, as long as we (and all the young impressionable children in the audience) don't know anything about it. Would you be ok with it if starting from now, Deppy never mention Felix by name or refer to him in any way, there are no more pictures with him anywhere and wherever other people mention social events attended by Felix (e.g. Marzia's birthday party next year), there are no mentions of Deppy and no confirmation (but also no denial) of their attending from other guests? Or you would still want some kind of statement? I'm genuinely curious and will be very thankful if you decide to answer (also, in a PM if you want).

I would be fine with that, yes. I’m somewhat glad that they didn’t mention the party at all, I don’t think a sugar high fully joint live show would have been the right atmoshere for the serious acknowledgement many of us were looking for. If Dan feels like addressing it in a future ls that’s good, if he never mentions it again that’s okay with me, I definitely won’t pester him. But if they ever collab with PDP I will absolutely voice my disapproval.

On that note, what YouTubers would you like to see D&P play Truth Bombs with on either the gaming channel or the other folks channels? Tyler was mentioned in the ls, and someone mentioned here that he would be in town for HelloWorld. It would be amazing if they could make that happen, though I realize it might not work out. Who would be an ideal fourth in that group?

A few more ls thoughts: I guess I didn’t key into Dan’s persona as much as others did, or at least wasn’t aware that that was what I was witnessing. Thinking back he does often start with it and then gradually gets softer and in many joint ls I’ve noticed he definitely has barriers up. I can recognize that he was very “on” but I was also amused with domestic bickering so...

I originally missed the first ten mins, so they had just started talking about Truth Bombs and the joint credit thing. I was fine with Phil giving credit to Dan for molding it and saying they came up with the questions together, but something about Dan’s attitude when he said “I took it from a piece of paper to this” rubbed me the wrong way and seemed at complete odds with all the soft sweet credit he gave to Phil during the gaming vid. Like yes, be proud of your part in it, but let’s be real: you, Phil and the team at Big Potato turned it into the finished product.

Everything else in the ls seemed to be “we” and “us” but that hard “I” just really stuck out to me and Dan came across as bossy to me for the next ten mins at least. But Phil never seems to truly mind so I just see it as a funny thing. And yeah I guess from the late 2012 and 2013 ls that I’ve seen, some moments did have a similar vibe, but others not at all. At times while watching it last night it seemed like the most married they’ve ever been.

Thank you for doing timestamps mermaid blood! My husband hasn’t watched it yet, so I may get in another viewing after the spooky vid tonight. Though he is currently consumed with Overwatch. So we’ll see. I can’t watch the spooky games on my own so I might not comment until tomorrow. Thanks for the spooky research susan2! *Hugs* misakichan274. Good post

[nihilist-toothpaste]

emerald, just want to quickly say that of course not every person of color is going to have the same reaction to racism and we've seen a spectrum of responses just here on the forum itself. but the people who matter most in this situation are those who are hurt. your lack of reaction to felix and to dnp is also not representative of all poc, and in fact i would wager that it's in the absolute minority. the quotes you pulled out are mostly referring to poc who have been hurt by felix and by dnp's association with him, bc theyre the people who matter in this discussion. if you don't care, if you're not hurt by it, great. more power to you. but you don't get to then invalidate all the people who do care and who are hurt.

also, forgive me if you are black but you didn't identify as such. but i will say this: anti-blackness amongst other poc groups is rampant, and the way you feel entitled to decide if a racial slur that has had a history of usage to dehumanize an entire race is not racist anymore is wildly inappropriate. as a personal example, i've never heard the n word (with the hard R, although that distinction seems fucking irrelevant) used more than amongst family friends of mine who are very, very indian. people of color who experience racism themselves can still be racist, and they especially can be (and /are/) racist towards black people whose specific histories of oppression they cannot relate to and never will. even if you /are/ black, then u must know how many people feel hurt and even retraumatized to hear that word in the mouths of those who aren't black. the context might change but the history does not. you don't get to decide how black people should feel about it just because it doesn't bother you.

edit: idk if u need to hear this but i'm very brown, not a 'white phannie' and i also don't know and perhaps will never understand why nonwhite people are so resentful of white people who want to be allies. if they talk over poc, of course that deserves criticism. but if they merely want to help point out the ways racism is manifesting amongst white people and in white circles, then that is helpful not harmful, and in fact it's necessary to facilitate the process of dismantling a system that allows racism to flourish unchecked.

[goldenmermaid]

I originally missed the first ten mins, so they had just started talking about Truth Bombs and the joint credit thing. I was fine with Phil giving credit to Dan for molding it and saying they came up with the questions together, but something about Dan’s attitude when he said “I took it from a piece of paper to this” rubbed me the wrong way and seemed at complete odds with all the soft sweet credit he gave to Phil during the gaming vid. Like yes, be proud of your part in it, but let’s be real: you, Phil and the team at Big Potato turned it into the finished product.

Everything else in the ls seemed to be “we” and “us” but that hard “I” just really stuck out to me and Dan came across as bossy to me for the next ten mins at least. But Phil never seems to truly mind so I just see it as a funny thing. And yeah I guess from the late 2012 and 2013 ls that I’ve seen, some moments did have a similar vibe, but others not at all. At times while watching it last night it seemed like the most married they’ve ever been.

I definitely took that as Dan being sarcastic! He even says "no" after “I took it from a piece of paper to this”.

[dancy]

But, anyway, if you want to unstan because of this, I think it's 100% in your right, but I won't and this wouldn't be a reason for my view of Deppy to be damaged. I think that you can unsub/unstan/whatever for any reason, including this, and I don't condone people who say that people who are unstanning are invalid. Freedom of speech and action and all that stuff.

I've hardly seen anyone saying they're gonna unstan D&P/stop watching their content because of their continued association with Felix, so I don't understand why "unstanning" keeps being brought up by people who disagree with what seems to be the the most popular opinion on this topic (believing that D&P have made a mistake).

This isn't about unstanning, this is about people's feelings. A lot of us are disappointed/upset and we're just expressing that and critisizing the two men to whom this forum is dedicated.

Dunno exactly what point I'm trying to make with this but it's just something I wanted to say.

[alittledizzy]

Lot of love for a lot of the posts happening right now, but especially nihilist-toothpaste and misakichan274.

And now I'm gonna depart from the heavy convo to pick at some of these timestamps.

26.17 - (phil reading chat) 'stop saying Niall, you're making me quiver'. sorry (?) elinda...[laughs]
dan: ......yikes
phil: i don't think anything's ever made me quiver.
dan: buffy made you quiver a lot, phil.
phil: buffy...just the show, in general.
dan: you quivered for gellar.
phil: (making it into a joke) gellar-quivs. byeee [hides off screen] why do i do liveshows? i dont know, because i say things like gellar-quivs...
dan: i'm really upset.
(I don't believe sarah michelle gellar made you quiver at all, phil)

33.23 - phil: [completely seriously] i think it's going to induce more ryan gosling dreams for me. (PHIL ATTRACTION ALERT?)

These two things really stood out to me in terms of Phil just putting it all out there. He actually refutes Dan's claim that it was SMG who made him "quiver" and tries to clarify that it was the whole show. Has Phil ever just outright denied a female attraction like that? And then it led into a really weird moment of discomfort from both of them that they tried to laugh off.

I also got the sense when Phil said he was gonna have more dreams about Ryan Gosling, Dan didn't respond because it was just one of those interactions in which Dan wasn't sure where the boundary was and didn't want to test it whilst live. Dan teasing Phil for male attraction is not something that they've really broached seriously in the past year or so - in fact, has he ever? I remember the Taylor Lautner abs moment, but besides that what am I forgetting?

[autumnhearth]

I originally missed the first ten mins, so they had just started talking about Truth Bombs and the joint credit thing. I was fine with Phil giving credit to Dan for molding it and saying they came up with the questions together, but something about Dan’s attitude when he said “I took it from a piece of paper to this” rubbed me the wrong way and seemed at complete odds with all the soft sweet credit he gave to Phil during the gaming vid. Like yes, be proud of your part in it, but let’s be real: you, Phil and the team at Big Potato turned it into the finished product.

I definitely took that as Dan being sarcastic! He even says "no" after “I took it from a piece of paper to this”.

Ah, right you are! Rewatched that bit, didn’t catch the no the first time. All is right in the Universe (not really).

mermaid blood can I ask you why you think SMG never made Phil quiver? I think he had a genuine crush on her when he was a teenager, but perhaps he drew it out a lot longer in his videos to distract from any current personal attraction/sexuality/relationships. I do love that moment when he says “bye” and slides off camera and his voice when he says “Gellar-quivs” the second time.

[obvsly]

This forum has been a very welcoming and the most civil platform to discussing this and I can only request people to remember that the world is a huge place with diverse people who feel and react differently. Being mindful of others' feelings regardless of yours will not hurt you (or dnp).

I came to just give this post a standing ovation.

[alittledizzy]

I originally missed the first ten mins, so they had just started talking about Truth Bombs and the joint credit thing. I was fine with Phil giving credit to Dan for molding it and saying they came up with the questions together, but something about Dan’s attitude when he said “I took it from a piece of paper to this” rubbed me the wrong way and seemed at complete odds with all the soft sweet credit he gave to Phil during the gaming vid. Like yes, be proud of your part in it, but let’s be real: you, Phil and the team at Big Potato turned it into the finished product.

I definitely took that as Dan being sarcastic! He even says "no" after “I took it from a piece of paper to this”.

Ah, right you are! Rewatched that bit, didn’t catch the no the first time. All is right in the Universe (not really).

mermaid blood can I ask you why you think SMG never made Phil quiver? I think he had a genuine crush on her when he was a teenager, but perhaps he drew it out a lot longer in his videos to distract from any current personal attraction/sexuality/relationships. I do love that moment when he says “bye” and slides off camera and his voice when he says “Gellar-quivs” the second time.

Not mermaid, but I also think that I'm not convinced Phil had a sexual kind of crush on her. He makes his admiration for Buffy as a character very well known, and his love of the show is equally well known, but I can't recall him ever making specific remarks about finding SMG sexually attractive. Someone more familiar with the 2011-2014 era might can provide some examples though, I'm for sure not saying they don't exist - just that his evasion there made me immediately wonder if he was implying that young Phil had no sexual attraction to her specifically because it's just as simple as that being the truth.

[parallel]

I originally missed the first ten mins, so they had just started talking about Truth Bombs and the joint credit thing. I was fine with Phil giving credit to Dan for molding it and saying they came up with the questions together, but something about Dan’s attitude when he said “I took it from a piece of paper to this” rubbed me the wrong way and seemed at complete odds with all the soft sweet credit he gave to Phil during the gaming vid. Like yes, be proud of your part in it, but let’s be real: you, Phil and the team at Big Potato turned it into the finished product.

I think he was joking when he said that? But I dunno. If he meant that seriously then that's giving himself way too much credit...

emerald, just want to quickly say that of course not every person of color is going to have the same reaction to racism and we've seen a spectrum of responses just here on the forum itself. but the people who matter most in this situation are those who are hurt. your lack of reaction to felix and to dnp is also not representative of all poc, and in fact i would wager that it's in the absolute minority. the quotes you pulled out are mostly referring to poc who have been hurt by felix and by dnp's association with him, bc theyre the people who matter in this discussion. if you don't care, if you're not hurt by it, great. more power to you. but you don't get to then invalidate all the people who do care and who are hurt.

also, forgive me if you are black but you didn't identify as such. but i will say this: anti-blackness amongst other poc groups is rampant, and the way you feel entitled to decide if a racial slur that has had a history of usage to dehumanize an entire race is not racist anymore is wildly inappropriate. as a personal example, i've never heard the n word (with the hard R, although that distinction seems fucking irrelevant) used more than amongst family friends of mine who are very, very indian. people of color who experience racism themselves can still be racist, and they especially can be (and /are/) racist towards black people whose specific histories of oppression they cannot relate to and never will. even if you /are/ black, then u must know how many people feel hurt and even retraumatized to hear that word in the mouths of those who aren't black. the context might change but the history does not. you don't get to decide how black people should feel about it just because it doesn't bother you.

edit: idk if u need to hear this but i'm very brown, not a 'white phannie' and i also don't know and perhaps will never understand why nonwhite people are so resentful of white people who want to be allies. if they talk over poc, of course that deserves criticism. but if they merely want to help point out the ways racism is manifesting amongst white people and in white circles, then that is helpful not harmful, and in fact it's necessary to facilitate the process of dismantling a system that allows racism to flourish unchecked.

I understand that I'm in the minority here, but I just don't like the attitude where people are trying to say what groups of people think and what's best for them, especially when it's coming from someone who's not a part of that group, but even if it's from a member, it's still a fallacious statement to make. I think the people who are upset are entirely valid and entitled to their opinion, but I just disagree with it is all.

I am not black and no, I don't know what it's like to be black. Different minority groups will have fundamentally different experiences, but from being in multiple minority groups, I find that the experience is inherently similar and easily compared. However, I don't know how black people could know some secret about what it's like to hear the N word that I can neither understand nor equate to with my own experiences. If someone casually uses a slur against a group I'm in, in the context of a joke, I wouldn't be offended because I know they mean no offence (I mean, obviously this is situational and every individual situation might be different; it might be coming from someone who I know is genuinely prejudiced, and then even the context of a joke, that would obviously be wrong).

I was less saying that people complaining are white and more so that they're trying to say how others feel when they don't know how they feel; I probably shouldn't have brought up "white phannies" but I did see a lot of white people mention things along those lines. If someone is trying to be an ally, I'm appreciative of them, but I just don't like being told how I feel or think and this goes for when I agree with what they're saying as well; regardless of what opinion you're saying I have, I think I can speak for myself. You can say why you think something is wrong but you can't say "X people find this offensive because". You can say "I think this is offensive to X because", but the former just annoys me after seeing it so much, and it's probably not that big of a deal but when you see everyone saying it, it gets on your nerves.

I've hardly seen anyone saying they're gonna unstan D&P/stop watching their content because of their continued association with Felix, so I don't understand why "unstanning" keeps being brought up by people who disagree with what seems to be the the most popular opinion on this topic (believing that D&P have made a mistake).

This isn't about unstanning, this is about people's feelings. A lot of us are disappointed/upset and we're just expressing that and critisizing the two men to whom this forum is dedicated.

Dunno exactly what point I'm trying to make with this but it's just something I wanted to say.

Yeah, I should've said something more along the lines of "this won't diminish my view of DNP/PDP" rather than "unstan", because not that many people are unstanning. But if you do, I think that's in your right and I'm not stopping you.

[autumnhearth]

I seem to remember numerous mentions from 2012 YouNows, mainly as his OTP Phil/Buffy. Though since Dan’s was Dan/Maltesers, you can probably take that as a joke. I’m pretty sure there were actual Sarah Michelle Gellar references though. I’m glad that he has toned it down and/or maybe gotten some perspective on it? Dan’s gift to Phil of an autographed photo of David Boreanaz in the bath comes to mind

This radio show clip mentions both his cut out and the wax statue at Madame Tussauds which if you google “Phil Lester girlfriend” that Instagram selfie from 2013 is still what you get. Which whatever, it’s funny and cute.