Dan & Phil Part 63: hitting you with our gay agenda

[scientia]

Lolwut it’s not about judgementalness? If somebody eats fish for dietary reasons because they need to (or want to), then good for them. But they’re by definition not vegan or vegetarian. That’s all there is to it, there’s no moral judgement in that statement. If someone wants to follow a vegan diet 5 days a week and eat chicken wings and bone marrow on the weekends, cool, but they’re not vegan. I fully support not using labels if you just want to do whatever because yeah, who cares, but the issue discussed earlier is people using labels when they don’t apply,

hey! I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm personally a very strict vegetarian and I wont usually eat marshmallows, etc. But I do understand where people who eat mostly vegetarian say they're vegetarian because it's easier for people to understand than their dietary restriction. For example, I have a friend who is halal but most people don't really get that so if she's at a restaurant she'll say she's vegetarian when she's ordering and ask if there's any meat in the dishes.

I agree with this too. My best friend keeps a certain kind of kosher and will sometimes say she’s vegetarian at restaurants/group meals just so that she’s able to 100% keep to her restrictions. It’s not always all or nothing folks.

[fancybum]

Lolwut it’s not about judgementalness? If somebody eats fish for dietary reasons because they need to (or want to), then good for them. But they’re by definition not vegan or vegetarian. That’s all there is to it, there’s no moral judgement in that statement. If someone wants to follow a vegan diet 5 days a week and eat chicken wings and bone marrow on the weekends, cool, but they’re not vegan. I fully support not using labels if you just want to do whatever because yeah, who cares, but the issue discussed earlier is people using labels when they don’t apply,

hey! I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm personally a very strict vegetarian and I wont usually eat marshmallows, etc. But I do understand where people who eat mostly vegetarian say they're vegetarian because it's easier for people to understand than their dietary restriction. For example, I have a friend who is halal but most people don't really get that so if she's at a restaurant she'll say she's vegetarian when she's ordering and ask if there's any meat in the dishes.

I agree with this too. My best friend keeps a certain kind of kosher and will sometimes say she’s vegetarian at restaurants/group meals just so that she’s able to 100% keep to her restrictions. It’s not always all or nothing folks.

Yeah, those are absolutely fine! (and.. they have nothing to do with the 'all or nothing' thing since the people you're talking about are admittedly not vegetarians and not claiming to be in daily life, as a general status of being- they're choosing a vegetarian meal- those are different things). That's not the issue of the wider discussion though- the issue is people actually claiming to be vegetarians or vegans (not out of convenience of language when talking to airlines or restaurants to get closer to what they need/want during a particular meal or event, which is understandable) while gnawing on a chicken sandwich. Because in their brains they think that actually makes sense. Those people exist in droves (sparkle's gf's mum! clearly too many people who previously met people I've interacted with!) and they're an actual problem. Eating a vegetarian meal doesn't make you vegetarian is literally the only thing being stated here, so I don't know what's happening.

Anyway I'll stop spamming, I've generally remembered why I try not to discuss veg*nism with anybody for any reason, because it just turns into indefinable weirdness that I'd rather just not be involved with. Apologies for even wading in. But hey maybe this serves as a very small scale example of why Dan might avoid the topic with a 10ft pole- people turning everything into something else in a very non-sequitur way.

[lefthandedism]

I'm enjoying the diverse and respectful discussion of diet here.

Do you think Phil seriously expected Dan to eat the crickets in that chopstick video if he had lost? Because Dan definitely didn’t seem like he would have even if he did lose, but I found Phil even suggesting it to him at all (as a surprise even) to be a mark against Dan being vegetarian. If somebody I lived with suggested I eat crickets, like literally offering me a bag while laughing, knowing full well I’m vegetarian, I’d be.. unimpressed (probably even offended) to say the least.

(Then again, Dan seemed pretty unimpressed, so maybe Phil is just that clueless lmao)

I actually thought they had probably planned out what would happen. Do you really think that phil's forfeits are all surprises? I expect they made sure that Phil would lose so he would be eating the crickets. Either they bet on Phil being worse at chopsticks so almost certain to lose. Or, if somehow Phil succeeded at the last challenge, they refilmed so Dan would win.

[snokoplasmic]

Do you think Phil seriously expected Dan to eat the crickets in that chopstick video if he had lost? Because Dan definitely didn’t seem like he would have even if he did lose, but I found Phil even suggesting it to him at all (as a surprise even) to be a mark against Dan being vegetarian. If somebody I lived with suggested I eat crickets, like literally offering me a bag while laughing, knowing full well I’m vegetarian, I’d be.. unimpressed (probably even offended) to say the least.

(Then again, Dan seemed pretty unimpressed, so maybe Phil is just that clueless lmao)

I actually thought they had probably planned out what would happen. Do you really think that phil's forfeits are all surprises? I expect they made sure that Phil would lose so he would be eating the crickets. Either they bet on Phil being worse at chopsticks so almost certain to lose. Or, if somehow Phil succeeded at the last challenge, they refilmed so Dan would win.

i find myself doubting that a lot, i really don't think either of them would willingly set up phil eating crickets for comedic effect -- simply not including the forfeit would be a more obvious/simpler route to take if they really didn't want dan to have to eat them. same thing goes for refilming it so that phil loses, i just don't get it

[Grey]

I.. loved gamingmas, want to see dan in a photo with Colin, never have any original comments.

Re pushy meat-eaters

I still live at home ( ) and my mother never stops complaining about my diet. “Have a little chicken! What about fish? Vegetarians can eat fish! You’ll waste away without meat. HAVE SOME BACON!!!! Smell it! You used to love bacon!!!” OMG. I’m not asking her to make food for me. Like leave me alone? Please?? Argh.

How do people know that dan’s brother is vegan ? I never knew anything about him until I joined this forum. I’m just not that inquisitive I guess lol. Do some of you follow him on SM or something?

[flurry]

A bit late as usual but what even were the PINOF bloopers?! Best bloopers I have ever seen (maybe besides the one where they tried doing some yoga or friendship pose). So full of innuendos. Also could someone explain the whole "philussy" bit at the end? I'm not very up to date with meme culture (ironically since I'm watching Dan) and I'm not very young anymore so I don't really know what the reference is.

Also that bit with Phil and the belt and his father did stand out to me and I didn't see much talk about it here - it jolted me a bit because even though his father didn't actually hit him with it, the implicit threat is quite clear, especially since this was in the 80s? Guess Phil's parents were really on the traditional side. It's easy to forget with today's values and beliefs that Phil was brought up in a whole different era with its own set of values and beliefs. (Anyway personally I'm Asian and parents here are still very traditional - probably more so than Phil's especially in terms of disciplining children)

[alittledizzy]

Also that bit with Phil and the belt and his father did stand out to me and I didn't see much talk about it here - it jolted me a bit because even though his father didn't actually hit him with it, the implicit threat is quite clear, especially since this was in the 80s? Guess Phil's parents were really on the traditional side. It's easy to forget with today's values and beliefs that Phil was brought up in a whole different era with its own set of values and beliefs. (Anyway personally I'm Asian and parents here are still very traditional - probably more so than Phil's especially in terms of disciplining children)

That was one of the moments that stood out to me most. Firstly because it's one of those perception difference things, Phil can say a story like that and no one really flinches but I feel like if Dan told the same story with the same descriptions of behavior from a parent it would get a lot more projected on it.

It actually reminded me of Phil talking about how his dad would yell at him when Phil hurt himself (or even when Phil was hurt and it was his dad's fault) and Phil talking about how that was the last thing a kid wants when they're hurt. Definitely not an uncommon parental response, but Phil so rarely tells any stories that aren't completely positive that they always catch my attention. (Clip of the moment I'm talking about under the spoiler.)

[Grey]

A bit late as usual but what even were the PINOF bloopers?! Best bloopers I have ever seen (maybe besides the one where they tried doing some yoga or friendship pose). So full of innuendos. Also could someone explain the whole "philussy" bit at the end? I'm not very up to date with meme culture (ironically since I'm watching Dan) and I'm not very young anymore so I don't really know what the reference is.

Also that bit with Phil and the belt and his father did stand out to me and I didn't see much talk about it here - it jolted me a bit because even though his father didn't actually hit him with it, the implicit threat is quite clear, especially since this was in the 80s? Guess Phil's parents were really on the traditional side. It's easy to forget with today's values and beliefs that Phil was brought up in a whole different era with its own set of values and beliefs. (Anyway personally I'm Asian and parents here are still very traditional - probably more so than Phil's especially in terms of disciplining children)

I had the same reaction to the father anecdote. Even if he didn’t hit him with it.. yikes. Before I joined this board, I didn’t know the general consensus that Dan has a rocky relationship with his dad and Phil loves his family, and I personally assumed the Dan’s dad was probably pretty chill from his anecdotes of going to drama school , going to work with his dad, dad was a DJ, etc. And I thought phil didn’t get on with his dad because he talked about his dad getting him power tools and yelling at him for getting hurt. I was honestly confused when I found out “everyone else” seemed to think it’s the opposite. Even in the video with his mum, she thought the most embarrassing thing was him as a baby wanting to wear a girls hat.. I mean...?? I’m sure y’all are right about it because I really don’t do in-depth digging myself, but it’s anecdotes like Phil’s dad getting a belt out that make me so curious about phil’s Relationship with his dad. He does seem to respect his family.

[alittledizzy]

Also, gentle reminder regarding the vegan conversation - we're not pretending common knowledge items aren't common knowledge, but please keep rule three in mind as you discuss sensitive topics that might involve family members or information about those family members:

3. Refrain from sharing information about the individuals we discuss or about people associated with the individuals we discuss that the individuals themselves have not made publicly available. This extends to social media accounts discovered of friends and family, ex-partners, etc., and to the current location of any individual we discuss, or any individual associated with them, if there is a risk of harassment or loss of privacy.

[Grey]

Sorry to be posting so much tonight! I just wanted to say - I wasn’t asking for the SM accounts! I was asking where the info came from (was it SM or a video etc). Sorry I didn’t word that well!

[alittledizzy]

Sorry to be posting so much tonight! I just wanted to say - I wasn’t asking for the SM accounts! I was asking where the info came from (was it SM or a video etc). Sorry I didn’t word that well!

You're fine, you didn't do anything wrong! Sometimes we just like to throw out a reminder to head off conversations going in directions we would have to moderate. No one has actually done that yet, though.

(Also definitely don't apologize for posting - I love seeing what you have to say, and I totally agree on the whole perception issue with Dan and Phil's parents.)

[obscureDnPreference]

I've been busy with family stuff and moving to a new city for the last week (finishing moving on Friday- ugh I hate moving). BUT I LOVED THE BLOOPS! and yasuhati, golf, and even the sims

dizzy, I appreciated the timestamps on the last page. They were helpful with my rewatch!

[alien]

So I rewatched the newest golf video and at 18:08 with Phil's "I've already started a family in that hole" and then the back and forth between them about whether or not it'll stay in the video and I just realized Phil gets cut off. He starts to say, "I'm already relaxing in the..." but then there's a jumpcut. I'm so curious to know what he was going/did say. My mind immediately went to the conversations that have been had here about them relaxing a bit in videos this year, especially Phil. But that could just be projecting because that's what's been discussed lol. Anyone have any thoughts?

I don't think this was talked about at the time but if it was I apologize.

[mermaid blood]

So I rewatched the newest golf video and at 18:08 with Phil's "I've already started a family in that hole" and then the back and forth between them about whether or not it'll stay in the video and I just realized Phil gets cut off. He starts to say, "I'm already relaxing in the..." but then there's a jumpcut. I'm so curious to know what he was going/did say. My mind immediately went to the conversations that have been had here about them relaxing a bit in videos this year, especially Phil. But that could just be projecting because that's what's been discussed lol. Anyone have any thoughts?

I don't think this was talked about at the time but if it was I apologize.

it may have been, but i need to catch up on posts so i'm not aware either.

i really want to know what he said. i think it's fair to conclude, logically, that it followed on from what he was just saying; so we can assume it was relaxing of something to do with things he says in videos, ways he expresses himself. i want to know the exact wording because that could've told us a lot about where they're at at the moment. what is most interesting to me is that they left in half of the sentence. either they didn't notice in the rushed daily editing, or they were fine with that kind of hint/ambiguity left in.

That was one of the moments that stood out to me most. Firstly because it's one of those perception difference things, Phil can say a story like that and no one really flinches but I feel like if Dan told the same story with the same descriptions of behavior from a parent it would get a lot more projected on it.

the belt thing also alarmed me, but i grew up in a society where corporeal punishment was already illegal in the home and at schools by the time i was a kid. even the (idle?) threat bothers me. i know it was a normalised part of a lot of people's childhoods though and they grew up fine (not wanting to argue that).

it's a good example of what i see as a difference between phil and dan, anyway, in other contexts too - viewers often dismiss negative things phil says because he himself dismisses them, omits them, or chooses to convey them in a positive or neutral light. we're very susceptible in that way to people's own views of themselves and their realities, they become our views of them. we teach people how to react to us, almost. neither of their ways of viewing their experiences and conveying them is the right or wrong way, in my opinion. just different relationships with personal vulnerability.

[droopy]

Adding on to the conversation about Phil's belt comment, I think what... I wouldn't say bothered, but what surprised me was Dan's reaction. In that split second between Phil finishing his story and Dan responding, I still hadn't quite processed it and figured out how I felt about it, and Dan's dismissiveness alongside Phil's nonchalance made me kind of... unsure how to feel? If that makes any sense. Personally, I don't think a child being frightened by their parent making a sharp noise with the intent of intimidating them is pathetic - and Dan probably doesn't either, I'm sure that was just his off-the-cuff comment to keep things light and end with some kind of punchline. Still, it surprised me and made me even more unsure how to feel about it.

Also, re: Phil treating these anecdotes with positivity and/or neutrality - at least for me, it seems like it's still obvious that those things affected him (not trying to make any statement about corporal punishment or anything, that's just what I observe specifically with Phil). I think it's especially clear in the clip dizzy shared, but I see it in the bloopers clip (and in pinof1, and other videos) as well. I don't really know how to explain it, but... it's kind of like, the way he brings it up, or even the fact that he brings it up at all, makes it seem like it had some impact on him? Hm. I don't really know where I was going with this. Just a pointless observation, I guess.

I had the same reaction to the father anecdote. Even if he didn’t hit him with it.. yikes. Before I joined this board, I didn’t know the general consensus that Dan has a rocky relationship with his dad and Phil loves his family, and I personally assumed the Dan’s dad was probably pretty chill from his anecdotes of going to drama school , going to work with his dad, dad was a DJ, etc. And I thought phil didn’t get on with his dad because he talked about his dad getting him power tools and yelling at him for getting hurt. I was honestly confused when I found out “everyone else” seemed to think it’s the opposite. Even in the video with his mum, she thought the most embarrassing thing was him as a baby wanting to wear a girls hat.. I mean...?? I’m sure y’all are right about it because I really don’t do in-depth digging myself, but it’s anecdotes like Phil’s dad getting a belt out that make me so curious about phil’s Relationship with his dad. He does seem to respect his family.

I think in Phil's case, he's really close with his mom, and his older brother as well (he's talked about being jealous of his brother before, but now they do the whole IRL Store thing together so I'm assuming everything's cool lol). Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention, but I don't actually remember hearing him talk about his dad that much. At least not as much as his mom is brought up (outside of the "your mum" jokes ofc). Dan's family is talked about even less, with the exception of Colin.

[flurry]

Adding on to the conversation about Phil's belt comment, I think what... I wouldn't say bothered, but what surprised me was Dan's reaction. In that split second between Phil finishing his story and Dan responding, I still hadn't quite processed it and figured out how I felt about it, and Dan's dismissiveness alongside Phil's nonchalance made me kind of... unsure how to feel? If that makes any sense. Personally, I don't think a child being frightened by their parent making a sharp noise with the intent of intimidating them is pathetic - and Dan probably doesn't either, I'm sure that was just his off-the-cuff comment to keep things light and end with some kind of punchline. Still, it surprised me and made me even more unsure how to feel about it.

Also, re: Phil treating these anecdotes with positivity and/or neutrality - at least for me, it seems like it's still obvious that those things affected him (not trying to make any statement about corporal punishment or anything, that's just what I observe specifically with Phil). I think it's especially clear in the clip dizzy shared, but I see it in the bloopers clip (and in pinof1, and other videos) as well. I don't really know how to explain it, but... it's kind of like, the way he brings it up, or even the fact that he brings it up at all, makes it seem like it had some impact on him? Hm. I don't really know where I was going with this. Just a pointless observation

It's not a pointless observation at all! I think Phil brought it up because it does remain with him but he says it matter of factly rather than seeming bitter or angry in tone the way Dan might, which is why people tend to dismiss the weight of what he says about his family compared to Dan. I think these things definitely affected him or he wouldn't even remember them or bring them up, but he also doesn't want to make a value judgement on them. I can't remember if he's ever said something specifically about corporal punishment for instance or how parents should deal with their kids - phrased as an opinion?

As for Dan's comment, he was either deliberately trying to lighten it because it could potentially be a heavy topic or he could just be dense (but I doubt so) - because (to me anyway) no one takes their belt out just to make loud sounds without the implicit threat of it being used. If the father wanted to make a loud noise he could just slam the table etc. but the fact that he's making a noise using something that traditionally is employed to hit kids with, implies the threat of it being used. That's how I see it anyway! Dan's comment of a young Phil being pathetically scared by just a noise also was a bit off to me - but I think it was the only way of lightening the situation. Also anyone else finds it significant that straight after that belt comment Phil said they weren't going to leave it in PINOF? He probably recognised what he just implied too with his little story.

Edit: living in a society where corporal punishment is still widely used, this is how I understood that whole thing - and I felt it was significant indeed that Phil talked about it

[captainspacecoat]

So I rewatched the newest golf video and at 18:08 with Phil's "I've already started a family in that hole" and then the back and forth between them about whether or not it'll stay in the video and I just realized Phil gets cut off. He starts to say, "I'm already relaxing in the..." but then there's a jumpcut. I'm so curious to know what he was going/did say. My mind immediately went to the conversations that have been had here about them relaxing a bit in videos this year, especially Phil. But that could just be projecting because that's what's been discussed lol. Anyone have any thoughts?

I don't think this was talked about at the time but if it was I apologize.

My immediate thought was that he was amending his original statement to be less crude, so "I've already started a family in that hole" becomes something like "I'm already relaxing... in that hole". But now I think about it, that is still a suggestive sentence that's not much better than the original statement, so maybe he was talking about relaxing the edits or something, I don't know. I think both possibilities make sense!

I've been hesitant to talk about the comment Phil made about his father threatening him with a belt as a child as I never feel entirely comfortable discussing their families, just based on the fact that we don't know anything about them beyond the tiny snippets they do tell us. I will say though that Dan did seem concerned to me at first, and his eventual dismissal came across as an attempt to lighten the mood more than anything.

I also agree with those who've said that people are more likely to project onto the things Dan says about his family/personal life/identity than they are Phil. There is definitely an image of Dan's family as troubled and impersonal as opposed to Phil's family as warm and loving, which is clearly simplistic and based on an ultimate lack of context. I've seen people speculate that Dan doesn't have a good relationship with his father (which may or may not be true, we have literally no way of knowing either way), but there's clearly just as much (if not more) to suggest that Phil has a complicated relationship with his father. In any case, I imagine that growing up with a father who essentialised a particular type of masculinity which dismisses vulnerability/emotion in his sons and relies on the threat of violence as a means of discipline would certainly result in complicated feelings as an adult, but I feel uncomfortable making any further comment about it just because it's one of those areas I don't feel comfortable going in to regarding people whose childhood/background I really don't know anything about.

[LtrllySusan]

Sorry if I triggered any bad emotions with my question about vegetarianism/veganism

It is very annoying what questions people ask vegetarians. This Dilbert strip has always been my favorite take on that: http://dilbert.com/strip/1994-04-02

As I said a couple of pages ago, I think Dan is a vegetarian based on what we've seen him eat over the past year and a half (at least)--unless you want to make marshmallows the litmus test for vegetarians (which would possibly be an example of "all or nothing" thinking). I personally, as a long-time vegetarian, find it odd to call not eating meat or readily-identifiable meat products simply "cutting down". A lot of people I know who consider themselves vegetarian would be content to call that being vegetarian.

Ok firstly, lol at that comic. That is painfully reminiscent of too many conversations over the years. And not to take this too far into a weird place, but I’ve found people who eat meat to (in person) be more weird and aggressive about food than any veg*n I’ve ever met. Like, several people (actually, all dudes for some reason) have actually waved meat in my face “jokingly” to try to get me to see what I’m missing, or like, assert how superior their personal food choices are in response to literally nothing more than the words “I don’t eat meat”. It’s always super weird and honestly has made me avoid food related things involving strangers/acquaintances so I don’t have to deal with it. But that has nothing to do with anything.

That isn't limited to vegetarianism/veganism though. When I've been dieting (for vanity reasons), people did the same thing with basically any sweet food ("Are you sure you don't want a piece of cake? Just a little one. It's not gonna hurt your diet!") and everyone becomes a nutritionist telling you what you are doing wrong. I have a friend who has diabetes type 1 and she says people are just being as ignorant with her dietary limitations. So people aren't being rude to you because you are vegetarian/vegan, people are just stupid in general.

So aside from in-depth analysing every aspect of gamingmas, how are we going to keep ourselves busy until the Christmas/NY drought is over? Guess I'll go rewatch all videos nominated for the forum awards to give my most educated opinion

[mermaid blood]

don't quote me on this as i don't have the receipts (though there was discussion earlier in the year on idb and lists are on gg, tumblr etc in various places), but i think we've heard more anecdotes from dan about his dad than we have from phil about his. it's only been in the last 2 or so years that dan hasn't referred to his father at all, it's a relatively new thing. and we have his stories about his mum and he's referenced his brother (only when he was little), most from old liveshows and the sunday radioshow, so i think again, there's a bit of perception warping and romanticism from the phandom (or it's just a case of newer fans not having the whole history).

one that does stick out however for me is that phil's dad watched buffy with him. as a big buffy stan at the time of it's airing and only a year younger than phil that really resonated with me. my mother would not have sat through it, lol.

[relatablemood]

Oops, just deleting what I wrote as I thought it best not to get into it. But for the sake of not hiccuping the thread,
I just skimmed over how pescetarian isn't that convenient for people who are vegans but eat fish for dietary needs (as the assumption with pescetarians is that they're basically fish-eating vegetarians, as opposed to maybe being fish eating vegans). And that it shouldn't be assumed Dan hasn't done his research on veganism/vegetarianism and that he doesn't know you can be lenient with it, either. I'm sure Dan is just going without labels now (like his sexuality and other things)
and can eat chicken tikka some nights and Linda McCartney sausages other nights, but maybe he could be vegan or vegetarian in the future. My opinion is that since he's tried it and hasn't gone back to that label since, he simply doesn't want to be a vegan right now, but that's just me.

Lolwut it’s not about judgementalness? If somebody eats fish for dietary reasons because they need to (or want to), then good for them. But they’re by definition not vegan or vegetarian. That’s all there is to it, there’s no moral judgement in that statement. If someone wants to follow a vegan diet 5 days a week and eat chicken wings and bone marrow on the weekends, cool, but they’re not vegan. I fully support not using labels if you just want to do whatever because yeah, who cares, but the issue discussed earlier is people using labels when they don’t apply, resulting in wider misunderstanding of terms, resulting in chicken in my vegetarian salad. If somebody wants to check off ‘vegetarian’ when choosing a meal on a plane, go right ahead, but eating a vegetarian meal occasionally (or even 8 times out of 10) doesn’t make you a vegetarian. That’s not a judgement, that’s a simple fact.

So turns out I read your original post and later hit reply and just noticed you changed it but whatever I’m leaving this.

Nobody thinks Dan doesn’t understand what veganism is, I’m just saying he’s expressed discomfort with expressing opinions (he literally made a video on it so) and being judged for imperfection in his thoughts on things and because of that could be reluctant to either commit to full veganism (because people would be pointing out how he’s failing in some aspects) or just reluctant to talk about it in general for similar reasons if he has already made steps in that general vegetable-based direction (which LeftHandedism has made a good case for). People are literally just discussing hypotheticals and likelihoods, nobody is forcing anything or judging so I don’t know why Dan needs defending here.

No one's saying that makes you a vegetarian or a vegan, but you're being harsh. I don't know why you're talking about vegetarians or vegans eating meat, because I never mentioned that? I just know there's a lot of vegeterian or vegan people who eat fish because of issues they're facing. They're just labels, and literally like you said, it's good to use on a plane. That was my only point. That's all I'm talking about. So please point out to me where I said (even in my first post) that people who eat meat are still vegetarians or vegans. Like where did I even mention eating meat in that first paragaph about labels?? I mean, did I ever even say people who eat fish but not meat are vegetarians? Just that they can use the label for convenience. It's pretty rare to have fish at a meal, anyway. I'm so confused. It sounds like you're projecting onto my speech, because I never said anything along the lines of people having meat, just fish.

The same reason people defend Dan over so many other things on this forum (queerbaiting, racism and so on) that he'll never read or future people will care about. People like to have opinions and it was mine that Dan was being patronised. I just don't get how if Dan is worried about how people would pick apart his eating habits (which they would and I get that), that means he's not gonna do it off camera? Of course, we should support him, but it seems more like people are saying he should rise up and make a whole video on veganism and how great it is, not that he should do whatever on Earth he wants and confirm if he's vegan/vegetarian at some point, if he wanted.

This is just a confusing and sucky conversation for me. So please explain some things to me if you have the time, but please don't put words into my mouth.

[hello9217]

I think the whole perception thing of how people view dan and phil's relationship with their parents comes down to what we are told. If you watch old live shows Dan says that his parents seemed to generally not give a shit about him, or at least this is how he felt. He said that he felt like he was shoved through life with no real person there to guide him. I'll post video if anyone hasn't seen it.


But the way Phil talks about his parents, or his mom at least, is almost always positive. He watches a show that his mom likes so he has something to talk to her about. If he gets a notification on his phone, in a liveshow or in the gaming video that one time, it's always from his mom.
If he ever does talk about his family in a negative light he casts it off as a joke. His comment in one of his old videos was "I don't think my dad will ever understand I will never be able to fix things, only breaks them." He said this after he showed he got a drill kit and then he laughs and people cast it away because they think it's a relatable joke. But it's essentially Phil saying that Phil won't be a "real man" like his dad wants him to be.
His grandad believed that dying your hair was a feminine thing so who knows how he acted when Phil dyed his hair. But he cast that aside and says that his grandad grew up in a different time. You only know how it effected Phil from off-handed comments about it. It's just all these little things that paint a bigger picture.
I do think that Phil had this idea of masculinity and how men should act shoved on him and it was probably hard for him to shake out of that perception.

[fancybum]

@relatablemood Fish = meat, that should clear things up.

[relatablemood]

@relatablemood Fish = meat, that should clear things up.

That's something I've never heard, or my vegetarian come vegan sister, my pescetarian nan or my vegetarian grandad have ever heard, or my vegetarian friends have ever said, but I guess you've seen and heard differently. Fish is meat, true, but it's generally treated as a whole other category. So no one would think that because a pescetarian eats salmon, they would then eat chicken, because they're not seen on the same level. Ergo I wouldn't think that pescetarians are contributing to discrimination against vegetarians or whatever. When you think of meat, you think of burgers and steaks, not cod or haddock. Maybe because fish are considered to have better lives than cows. pigs or because one comes from the water, the other from land, I don't know. That's what I was told growing up. But I guess that's my vs your perception, my vs your experiences. Both are valid. Agree to disagree.

[fancybum]

@relatablemood Fish = meat, that should clear things up.

That's something I've never heard, or my vegetarian come vegan sister, my pescetarian nan or my vegetarian grandad have ever heard, or my vegetarian friends have ever said, but I guess you've seen and heard differently. Fish is meat, true, but it's generally treated as a whole other category. So no one would think that because a pescetarian eats salmon, they would then eat chicken, because they're not seen on the same level. Ergo I wouldn't think that pescetarians are contributing to discrimination against vegetarians or whatever. When you think of meat, you think of burgers and steaks, not cod or haddock. Maybe because fish are considered to have better lives than cows. pigs or because one comes from the water, the other from land, I don't know. That's what I was told growing up. But I guess that's my vs your perception, my vs your experiences. Both are valid. Agree to disagree.

Ok but... if a “vegan” eats fish... they’re by definition.. not vegan. Considering fish a vegan meal item is not valid.
(And I’d argue the same for vegetarians but this seems like a fruitless (heh) conversation so I’m stepping out of it here. Like I already said yesterday. Uh, but this time I mean it.)

Edit: actually, what are you even saying we’re agreeing to disagree on? That fish is meat? You even say in your post that’s true. I literally don’t understand what this conversation is or why it’s happening? I don’t even know if we’re still speaking English?

More off topic above, sorry. I haven’t even watched the pinof bloopers yet??

[lefthandedism]

In my experience as a vegetarian, fish is meat because it's the flesh of an animal that you had to kill in order to eat it. If you are a vegetarian for ethical reasons, it's generally distasteful when people who are eating any sort of animal say they are vegetarians--why should some animals be privileged and others treated as plants? It muddies the ethical concept at best.

If someone wants to be a pescetarian, that's great! But as a vegetarian, I do object to them calling themselves vegetarians. As the name implies, vegetarians eat from the vegetable (plant) kingdom. And generally speaking, animals and plants are distinctly different organisms; whereas fish, for example, are in fact animals (not plants!).

I hope this helps explain fancybum's (and my) perspective. I understand your family's perspective, and have heard it before, even if I don't agree with it.