Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

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LadyLackless
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by LadyLackless » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:30 pm

LtrllySusan wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:10 pm
alittledizzy wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:11 pm
Just an FYI based on current outside-forum conversation: you guys are fully allowed to have honest conversation on here. Of course we would never encourage hate for any fic (and there has been absolutely none in this thread) but this is earmarked for discussion of fic, not direct author feedback. Authors can make the choice themselves if they can handle reading discussion about their fic, but that is what they're signing on for when clicking this thread.
I have seen the post Ashley made about reading "that shit on IDB" and I know it's likely partially aimed at my comment regarding that one Six Ravens chapter.
I know he gets a lot of awful comments but I find it a bit mean to be put on the same level as other, very rude comments. I'm fully aware that fic writers, lots of lurkers and probably even some YouTubers are reading this forum, so I don't like the "they're being mean cause the don't know I'm reading it" attitude.

Despite that, I am looking to the next chapter! I've even ko-fi'd Ashley before and I hope he doesn't see everyone with criticism as a hater.
I don’t think it was just you, hence my post above (full disclosure: was made after I had wind that Ashley had been upset by comments here). I wanted to make it unequivocally clear that I really really like this fic, ok?

I guess some of my comments could have been perceived as harsh, but really all I was trying to say was that the “Mary Shaw” chapter of 6R was not very much more far fetched than the rest of the premise of the fic and if you can suspend disbelief for one you can probably do it for the other. I really do love this fic a lot and was not intending to shit on it in any way.

Anyway, I guess it’s better to avoid rehashing drama, so... move on?



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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by queerofcups » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:03 pm

LadyLackless wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:30 pm
LtrllySusan wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:10 pm
alittledizzy wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:11 pm
Just an FYI based on current outside-forum conversation: you guys are fully allowed to have honest conversation on here. Of course we would never encourage hate for any fic (and there has been absolutely none in this thread) but this is earmarked for discussion of fic, not direct author feedback. Authors can make the choice themselves if they can handle reading discussion about their fic, but that is what they're signing on for when clicking this thread.
I have seen the post Ashley made about reading "that shit on IDB" and I know it's likely partially aimed at my comment regarding that one Six Ravens chapter.
I know he gets a lot of awful comments but I find it a bit mean to be put on the same level as other, very rude comments. I'm fully aware that fic writers, lots of lurkers and probably even some YouTubers are reading this forum, so I don't like the "they're being mean cause the don't know I'm reading it" attitude.

Despite that, I am looking to the next chapter! I've even ko-fi'd Ashley before and I hope he doesn't see everyone with criticism as a hater.
I don’t think it was just you, hence my post above (full disclosure: was made after I had wind that Ashley had been upset by comments here). I wanted to make it unequivocally clear that I really really like this fic, ok?

I guess some of my comments could have been perceived as harsh, but really all I was trying to say was that the “Mary Shaw” chapter of 6R was not very much more far fetched than the rest of the premise of the fic and if you can suspend disbelief for one you can probably do it for the other. I really do love this fic a lot and was not intending to shit on it in any way.

Anyway, I guess it’s better to avoid rehashing drama, so... move on?
Giving up my incredibly thin veneer of deniability to say that this particular thread was begun as a place to discuss fic and discussion means expressing opinions, good and bad, not blithely kissing the writers ass because they might be writing. It's unfair, of any writer, to try and influence people's opinions of a fic by styling themselves as a lurking specter who might be reading and might take your opinion poorly.

I've been excitedly lurking this board to see if other people have interesting, differing opinions on some of the most popular fics floating around the fandom at a given time, and tbh, I think it'd be a huge value losses if everyone was so scared of hurting someone's feelings that no one shared what they actually thought about a fic. Like, this is a discussion board, not a cheerleading squad. Diversity of thought is great.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by Ablissa » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:31 pm

I just wanted to pitch in as an author and a person who reads most threads on IDB (not to look for something, just because I like to read this forum a lot)

I honestly don't mind any kind of criticism on my works. I'm mostly grateful that someone would take the time to read my fics, and if there's critique, I'm happy because I love the feedback. I'll never be a (published, original works) writer, no matter how much I would love to, but I do want my fics to improve over time and nothing helps like constructive criticism.
The only thing I disliked is when I had some hateful anons on tumblr tell me I shouldn't even be writing, one even told me to kill myself. That's not criticism, that's cruelty. Obviously the discussion on IDB is always respectful, so it cannot be compared at all.

I understand people might feel bad if someone doesn't love a particular part of their fic, but if we want this thread to work the way it should, honest, open discussion should be had. You love something, say it, you dislike it, say it. That's just my opinion.
I think that maybe it might be good for authors to mostly stay out of this thread so that other people can discuss their works without feeling shy. If someone is brave and really wants to read it then that is their choice.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by The_Blonde » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:06 pm

queerofcups wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:03 pm
Giving up my incredibly thin veneer of deniability to say that this particular thread was begun as a place to discuss fic and discussion means expressing opinions, good and bad, not blithely kissing the writers ass because they might be writing. It's unfair, of any writer, to try and influence people's opinions of a fic by styling themselves as a lurking specter who might be reading and might take your opinion poorly.

I've been excitedly lurking this board to see if other people have interesting, differing opinions on some of the most popular fics floating around the fandom at a given time, and tbh, I think it'd be a huge value losses if everyone was so scared of hurting someone's feelings that no one shared what they actually thought about a fic. Like, this is a discussion board, not a cheerleading squad. Diversity of thought is great.
popping out of my lurking state (hi guys) to say that i agree with this wholeheartedly - ultimately this thread is for "discussion" of fics. it doesn't sit right with me that i've seen two posters have to apologise for giving polite, well mannered feedback because the author saw it and was upset (don't get me wrong, i'm sorry he was upset, i've been upset by comments on my writing numerous times, i know the feeling well). it moderates the conversation in a way that i'm not comfortable with and lets the author dictate what people should and shouldn't say about their writing. that's not what "discussion" about fics is about to me.

(ablissa also said what i wanted to say but far more eloquently!! i especially agree with their point that, as an author, if you're going into a discussion thread you should expect just that. if i come into this thread i expect honest commentary on fics. if i go into a thread called "reasons why the_blonde is amazing" then i'm expecting pages on my overwhelming awesomeness. if i'm going to take the former to heart then i should stay in the latter.)

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by lefthandedism » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:12 pm

I haven't followed the controversy that has prompted this discussion, and I don't ever condone criticism of a personal nature of anyone, but I do want to express a bit of frustration at the unacknowledged privilege that seems to underlie this sort of situation. Many, many fic writers get hits in the dozens or low hundreds, kudos in the tens, and comments in the single digits. (I am one such.) Fic writers write because they want to, but I'm not sure I would believe anyone who claimed to be immune to (lack of) feedback. It can be hard to understand anyone being upset when they get feedback!

I think that writers who get literally hundreds of kudos, comments, notes, and IDB posts any time they publish anything should expect some negative feedback (maybe quite a bit!) among the plaudits. It is not possible to be everyone's cup of tea all the time; every great writer in history has their detractors. But it is an amazing accomplishment in of itself to have the skills to engage such a huge audience. And it is a gift if the audience tells you what they don't like along with what they do, so you can use that information to help you grow as a writer.

I appreciate very much when some of the biggest writers in the phandom show they have some perspective on the position of popular fic writers, be it @queerofcups 's "bring it on" attitude or @Ablissa 's expressions of gratitude. :lilheart: <3 :lilheart:
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by liola » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:21 pm

I'll agree with all of you, you said it all but I still wanna give an opinion on this. I'm quite new as a writer in the phandom but I'm definitely not new when it comes to read and in my previous fandom I dealt myself with having a popular fics that got thankfully lots of good comments but also lots of bad reactions, both as comments on the story itself and subtweets and stuff.

When someone posts something online, you open yourself up to criticism. It's the author's responsability to accept both praise and negative comments - which is different than hate. Personal hate, insults, offensive comments are not okay and should never be okay, but a constructive opinion, that underlines what something maybe didn't work for a reader, should be taken for what it is - an opinion.

It's true, fic writers write because they love it and do it for free - but expecting that 100% of the comments and reactions will be absolutely positive and love doesn't seem reasonable. Realistically, something won't work for everyone. It happens to all of us.

And I also agree that lurking in a thread that is specifically made for discussing and calling out people for having a polite but negative opinion isn't fair to the readers, because if I don't feel like I can have a honest opinion both positive and negative then you just don't want my honest opinion.
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by alittledizzy » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:58 pm

I already chimed in speaking as someone in defense of people who were hurt by Ashley's public condemnation of us, but I'll also hop in as an author here - I basically said it already on the previous page, but this stands now and will continue to stand:
alittledizzy wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:19 pm
Ahhh thank you <33 I will try not to creep on discussion too much so people can honestly respond without feeling awkward but I do want to pop in and say in case you're worried, we have 110k+ pre-written - short of absolute disaster happening, this fic will not catch up to itself!
It is definitely a gift to be getting lots of regular feedback, and I fully anticipate there will be things about my fic (be it my ongoing WIP or just things I write in the future) that people won't love. If I feel like I post something that I can't handle discussion on, I'll make the decision not to read the discussion - but I don't want anyone to feel like they aren't allowed to have it.

I also appreciate the other authors jumping in. While the tumblr side of this might have devolved into angry anons who probably didn't even look at the thread, this feels like it sparked something really productive and weirdly uplifting here.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by kindofatrashcan » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:33 pm

I don't know it all feels so messed up right now, 'cause now i feel like i may be criticizing something that someone does only for fun with no economic retribution and it's like do i have the right to make a negative comment? When i'm consuming content for free? And making that comment in an open forum where the authors can read it?
I don't know, I was super happy of this place because irl no one even knows that i watch D&P so fanfiction Is something that i can't share with anyone but now i don't know.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by weneedtobedeleted » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:51 pm

i've been following the drama on tumblr and ashley has repeatedly said that criticizers haven't done anything wrong, and that he was just expressing the fact that he was hurt by the criticisms. obviously when someone says something negative about something you worked hard on, it's going to have a detrimental effect on you emotions. also, it is obviously perfectly okay to state your opinions on a piece of writing. i kind of feel like there's a lot of pointless back and forth here, but that's hypocritical now, so i'll just leave it at that.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by alittledizzy » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:53 pm

kindofatrashcan wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:33 pm
I don't know it all feels so messed up right now, 'cause now i feel like i may be criticizing something that someone does only for fun with no economic retribution and it's like do i have the right to make a negative comment? When i'm consuming content for free? And making that comment in an open forum where the authors can read it?
I don't know, I was super happy of this place because irl no one even knows that i watch D&P so fanfiction Is something that i can't share with anyone but now i don't know.
No one should send an author concrit that has explicitly said they don't want it, but this is not a place for direct author feedback - it's for conversation. Don't let what one author feels make you deprive other authors, ones who really revel in honest discussion and aspire to that, of your thoughts and opinions! Conversation that happens in this thread is ultimately people who read and enjoy fics having diverse and often complex and layered opinions of it, and I think most of us know and appreciate that.

And to be honest - this is already specifically a thread for people to talk about fics they love. Ninety percent of the messages in this thread are just people being genuinely excited for stories. The shared experience here is that people are talking about stories they're all consuming together. With long WIP, you're going to have varying levels of excitement from one chapter to the next, and expressing which ones work better for you and which ones don't work quite so well is not negative.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by AltMay » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:47 am

I find this discussion quite interesting and it's always sort of a conundrum for me to actually criticize any kind of work because art is supposed to spark emotion in you, i feel like is a total win for the author even if that crit comes from a negative place. It just means you reached the reader in one way or another to the point they needed to comment on it. But on the other hand, fic writers (and fandom artists in general) deserve so much respect for what they do that sometimes i do feel i'm not entitled to say anything but thank you.
But as @alittledizzy said many times, this is a non direct author feedback space and i don't think respectful and polite opinions should hurt anybody. I get where Ashley is coming from though and he's allowed to express his discomfort in his personal blog too. I mean, it goes both ways. I feel like the major issue here are those nasty annons that take advantage of situations like this.
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by LtrllySusan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 am

Woke up to Ashley having deleted his Tumblr.
Was this because of us or because of any anon asks?

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by The_Blonde » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am

LtrllySusan wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:49 am
Woke up to Ashley having deleted his Tumblr.
Was this because of us or because of any anon asks?
i’m sorry that he felt that he needed to do that (but i’m also all for people keeping themselves happy and healthy online and if the nature of feedback was causing anxiety or distress then maybe a break is good?) i hope he’s okay anyhow.

with your final question, i stand by what i said in my post - any comments i read here were polite and constructive. i mean, i don’t want to speak for ashley and the reaction they caused, but i certainly didn’t view them as rude. can’t speak on the level of anons though as i didn’t follow him on tumblr.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by LadyLackless » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 am

The_Blonde wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am

with your final question, i stand by what i said in my post - any comments i read here were polite and constructive. i mean, i don’t want to speak for ashley and the reaction they caused, but i certainly didn’t view them as rude. can’t speak on the level of anons though as i didn’t follow him on tumblr.
I get the impression that the tumblr stuff was much worse than anything said here. And obviously sent directly to him, not in a forum he can choose to look at or not. We only know about the stuff that went on his blog, who knows what sort of messages he was getting and not publishing?

I wish him well, and hope that he does whatever he needs to do to safeguard his mental health.

Regarding Six Ravens being ‘unfinished’ I feel like it actually stands as it is, even if it’s not the ending we wanted or he initially envisioned
I mean, Phil has made a public declaration of love and he’s gone to Dan. I would have been happy to see more but I also kind of know how it’s going to go from here :)

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by The_Blonde » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:59 am

LadyLackless wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 am
The_Blonde wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am

with your final question, i stand by what i said in my post - any comments i read here were polite and constructive. i mean, i don’t want to speak for ashley and the reaction they caused, but i certainly didn’t view them as rude. can’t speak on the level of anons though as i didn’t follow him on tumblr.
I get the impression that the tumblr stuff was much worse than anything said here. And obviously sent directly to him, not in a forum he can choose to look at or not. We only know about the stuff that went on his blog, who knows what sort of messages he was getting and not publishing?

I wish him well, and hope that he does whatever he needs to do to safeguard his mental health.
very true (on the anons) - i probably spoke a little out of turn there as, exactly like you say, who knows what he was getting that we didn’t see. i just get a little protective of this forum it seems!

completely agree and i hope he takes the time he needs, it seems to be the right decision.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by kavat » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:34 am

I'm so sorry that he felt the need to delete his blog. I hope he is okay and has people around him for support.

I agree with most of you, this is a forum for discussion that is on a separate platform from the fic and from were he has his biggest presence. The comments were not rude or hateful, I saw mostly a bit of disappointment which comes with loving work and having expectations. I started reading 6r a week ago because I knew it was going to finish soon and I loved it (I read it on my way to and while being I London and it actually made passing places like the Tower of London and Kensington palace so much more fun because I could connect them to the story). The Mary Shaw chapter was a bit different from the rest of the story but I didn't see anyone who thought less of the story as a whole because of it.

My point is that if you look up feedback not sent directly to you, you need to be prepared for what you might find. To hope this is not the sole reason for him stepping back but maybe it was the drop that made the cup run over (is that a phrase in English? I hope you understand what I mean). Perhaps he can take a break and come back when he feels ready.
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by LadyLackless » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:55 am

The_Blonde wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:59 am
LadyLackless wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 am
The_Blonde wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am

with your final question, i stand by what i said in my post - any comments i read here were polite and constructive. i mean, i don’t want to speak for ashley and the reaction they caused, but i certainly didn’t view them as rude. can’t speak on the level of anons though as i didn’t follow him on tumblr.
I get the impression that the tumblr stuff was much worse than anything said here. And obviously sent directly to him, not in a forum he can choose to look at or not. We only know about the stuff that went on his blog, who knows what sort of messages he was getting and not publishing?

I wish him well, and hope that he does whatever he needs to do to safeguard his mental health.
very true (on the anons) - i probably spoke a little out of turn there as, exactly like you say, who knows what he was getting that we didn’t see. i just get a little protective of this forum it seems!

completely agree and i hope he takes the time he needs, it seems to be the right decision.
Oh gosh! I don’t feel like you spoke out of turn at all (and I’m also protective of this forum!) I’m so bad at expressing myself... I obviously don’t know the full ins and outs of it but I think possibly the comments here were the catalyst for his recent spiral, but it was the tumblr anon stuff that caused him to delete?

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by liola » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:00 am

It saddens me that he had to deactivate and I don't think it has anything to do with the comments on this forum or even on other platform and mostly awful anons on tumblr who were being downright horrible, transphobic and generally the worst. I don't think it's even the first time that happened and I'm not surprised he felt the need to step away to feel better.

I think the issue is deeper than someone not thinking the entirety of his story is 100% perfect and beautiful. The comments made here were polite and just made to discuss what was happening while still enjoying and following the story, so I don't feel "guilt" in that.

I hope he can recover and find some peace, and hopefully come back when and if he feels ready. Ultimately fandom should be a safe place to enjoy yourself and if that's not the case, stepping away is the right thing
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by The_Blonde » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:37 am

LadyLackless wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:55 am
The_Blonde wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:59 am
LadyLackless wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:47 am
The_Blonde wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am

with your final question, i stand by what i said in my post - any comments i read here were polite and constructive. i mean, i don’t want to speak for ashley and the reaction they caused, but i certainly didn’t view them as rude. can’t speak on the level of anons though as i didn’t follow him on tumblr.
I get the impression that the tumblr stuff was much worse than anything said here. And obviously sent directly to him, not in a forum he can choose to look at or not. We only know about the stuff that went on his blog, who knows what sort of messages he was getting and not publishing?

I wish him well, and hope that he does whatever he needs to do to safeguard his mental health.
very true (on the anons) - i probably spoke a little out of turn there as, exactly like you say, who knows what he was getting that we didn’t see. i just get a little protective of this forum it seems!

completely agree and i hope he takes the time he needs, it seems to be the right decision.
Oh gosh! I don’t feel like you spoke out of turn at all (and I’m also protective of this forum!) I’m so bad at expressing myself... I obviously don’t know the full ins and outs of it but I think possibly the comments here were the catalyst for his recent spiral, but it was the tumblr anon stuff that caused him to delete?
oh no, i didn’t mean to imply that you were implying that i had (my reading and writing comprehension before coffee is not great!!) you expressed yourself perfectly :thumb:

i agree with you completely that, while the comments here may have been a small tipping point, people use anon for all the wrong reasons sometimes. goodness knows i’ve turned my tumblr asks off a few times. i think i was focusing on the comments here too much!

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by dc34 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:17 pm

As someone who followed Ashley on tumblr, the shit he got was terrible and it was only the stuff he decided to publish. The more known his fic got the more attention his account got, and he got very transphobic comments and comments criticizing his parenting skills. Assuming he deactivated solely bc of what was written on IDB is a little bit short sighted no offense to anyone

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by sonicgreen » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:59 pm

Just learned of Ash’s deactivation- although I am really saddened by the news, I agree with everyone else that he deserves a break and some time offline. I hope this can give him time to heal.
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by alittledizzy » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:22 pm

dc34 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:17 pm
As someone who followed Ashley on tumblr, the shit he got was terrible and it was only the stuff he decided to publish. The more known his fic got the more attention his account got, and he got very transphobic comments and comments criticizing his parenting skills. Assuming he deactivated solely bc of what was written on IDB is a little bit short sighted no offense to anyone
I don't think anyone believes any of this happened 'solely' bc of what was written on IDB. The assumption is coming from the fact that the majority of asks the day he deactivated were about hate and concrit, and that the situation in the past day was sparked by a post he made about being upset at seeing the comments here. The things people are responding to on here are definitely relevant to here and to things said about this thread, and not short-sighted imo.

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by kavat » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:52 am


If anyone is still unsure of what happened.
Do you make mistakes or do you make a change?

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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by Susanisnotafish » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:04 am

I hope this adds something to this sub forum from another perspective. I have been on a break from Idb for a while both to avoid II spoilers and bc I get overwhelmed by the intensity of this place. I decided to pop back in and get some fic recs and I find this! I was interested both bc of the usual high quality discussion and as a fan of Ashley. But I didn’t get any fic recs and I found out things here are still pretty intense for me. Glad this place exists, but also I can’t let myself get in too deep.
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LadyLackless
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Re: Discussion of Fics We're Currently Loving

Post by LadyLackless » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:44 pm

Susanisnotafish wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:04 am
I hope this adds something to this sub forum from another perspective. I have been on a break from Idb for a while both to avoid II spoilers and bc I get overwhelmed by the intensity of this place. I decided to pop back in and get some fic recs and I find this! I was interested both bc of the usual high quality discussion and as a fan of Ashley. But I didn’t get any fic recs and I found out things here are still pretty intense for me. Glad this place exists, but also I can’t let myself get in too deep.
Sorry that you find this place too intense!

If it helps, this is the thread where we scream about ongoing fic / WIPs that we are loving. There is a separate thread which is purely fic recs: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62&start=700

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