IDB Book Club

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:15 pm

I guess on the other side of these things, there's the question of if both Dan & Phil need to be in a phanfic, and if they have to have any particular kind of relationship. I think overall it's a less interesting question, but does come into play with phanfic blogs that don't include fics that include D&P but that focus on a pairing other than phan. I don't know that there's anywhere that excludes platonic D&P fic, though, if they're not paired with anyone else.



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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by whatdoiknow » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:46 am

Templeofshame wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:15 pm
I guess on the other side of these things, there's the question of if both Dan & Phil need to be in a phanfic, and if they have to have any particular kind of relationship. I think overall it's a less interesting question, but does come into play with phanfic blogs that don't include fics that include D&P but that focus on a pairing other than phan. I don't know that there's anywhere that excludes platonic D&P fic, though, if they're not paired with anyone else.
I think the term phanfic implies that both dan and phil need to be in the fic in some capacity, right? My opinion would be that it could definitely included a platonic relationship, and even romantic/sexual relationships with other people, as long as there was some sort of relationship between dan and phil in the fic (whether that be a canon version of them, or a super au version of them). If only one of them is in the fic, I think that would be a fanfic in the 'dan and phil fandom', but not necessarily a "phanfic". That's just my interpretation of it though. Not that the labeling really matters in the end - I don't use the term 'phanfic' at all, and just call it a fanfic, or dan and phil fanfic, or whatever, so it's all up to personal interpretation I guess.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:56 am

whatdoiknow wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:46 am

I think the term phanfic implies that both dan and phil need to be in the fic in some capacity, right? My opinion would be that it could definitely included a platonic relationship, and even romantic/sexual relationships with other people, as long as there was some sort of relationship between dan and phil in the fic (whether that be a canon version of them, or a super au version of them). If only one of them is in the fic, I think that would be a fanfic in the 'dan and phil fandom', but not necessarily a "phanfic". That's just my interpretation of it though. Not that the labeling really matters in the end - I don't use the term 'phanfic' at all, and just call it a fanfic, or dan and phil fanfic, or whatever, so it's all up to personal interpretation I guess.
Yeah, I think that's why it seems like a less interesting question than the one that's more about what the fanfic part is, because it really seems like semantics, defining "phan." Whereas questions about characterization, authorial intent/framing, and use of canon might go somewhere a little deeper. I dunno.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by whatdoiknow » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:12 am

Templeofshame wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:56 am
whatdoiknow wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:46 am

I think the term phanfic implies that both dan and phil need to be in the fic in some capacity, right? My opinion would be that it could definitely included a platonic relationship, and even romantic/sexual relationships with other people, as long as there was some sort of relationship between dan and phil in the fic (whether that be a canon version of them, or a super au version of them). If only one of them is in the fic, I think that would be a fanfic in the 'dan and phil fandom', but not necessarily a "phanfic". That's just my interpretation of it though. Not that the labeling really matters in the end - I don't use the term 'phanfic' at all, and just call it a fanfic, or dan and phil fanfic, or whatever, so it's all up to personal interpretation I guess.
Yeah, I think that's why it seems like a less interesting question than the one that's more about what the fanfic part is, because it really seems like semantics, defining "phan." Whereas questions about characterization, authorial intent/framing, and use of canon might go somewhere a little deeper. I dunno.
I think you still posed an interesting question, because people will still have differing opinions of what that definition is. This whole topic is really interesting.

Going back to what was mentioned on the last page, I've never thought about the possibility of headcanons and 'imagine ifs' being classified as fanfic. I personally don't think those can be classified as fanfic, because I think fanfiction implies there is some sort of intent for a story. Like with fiction books - an actual story is being written. I see headcanons and 'imagines' as more of an outline for a story - kind of what would be in the brainstorming session before a book is actually written, if we keep with the fanfic to book comparison.

Also, going back to the topic of characterization, I think for any fanfic to be classified as a specific fandom fanfic (in this case, 'phanfic'), I think there has to be at least some sort of vague connection between the characterizations of the characters in your fic, and the people or characters you're writing about. Basically, just using the names 'Dan' and 'Phil' isn't going to make it a 'phanfic'. But I guess from there, it's up to the writer's interpretation of how they view Dan and Phil as people, and what they make of that characterization. Basically, I guess as long as there's intent by the writer to keep at least some sort of characterization consistent between the dan and phil in their fic and the real dan and phil, then it can be classified as a 'phanfic'.

As for the question of the use of canon - I don't think canon needs to be applied at all to classify it as a 'phanfic'. I think it's all in the characterization, as per my last point.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:32 am

whatdoiknow wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:12 am
Going back to what was mentioned on the last page, I've never thought about the possibility of headcanons and 'imagine ifs' being classified as fanfic. I personally don't think those can be classified as fanfic, because I think fanfiction implies there is some sort of intent for a story. Like with fiction books - an actual story is being written. I see headcanons and 'imagines' as more of an outline for a story - kind of what would be in the brainstorming session before a book is actually written, if we keep with the fanfic to book comparison.
I often see people on phanfictioncatalogue or places like that trying to find a fic with x plot, and the answer is 'oh that's this hc here.' Some of those might be false identifications or the seeker might be misremembering what it was, but some register in the seeker's memory as being a fic because they're only distinct from phanfic in that the author called them hcs. I wouldn't personally argue that all hcs are fic, but I do think there's gray area. I have included at least one such hc in a fic rec list, so, [shrug]. That's me.
whatdoiknow wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:12 am
Also, going back to the topic of characterization, I think for any fanfic to be classified as a specific fandom fanfic (in this case, 'phanfic'), I think there has to be at least some sort of vague connection between the characterizations of the characters in your fic, and the people or characters you're writing about. Basically, just using the names 'Dan' and 'Phil' isn't going to make it a 'phanfic'. But I guess from there, it's up to the writer's interpretation of how they view Dan and Phil as people, and what they make of that characterization. Basically, I guess as long as there's intent by the writer to keep at least some sort of characterization consistent between the dan and phil in their fic and the real dan and phil, then it can be classified as a 'phanfic'.

As for the question of the use of canon - I don't think canon needs to be applied at all to classify it as a 'phanfic'. I think it's all in the characterization, as per my last point.
Yeah, I guess what I meant by "use of canon" was more or less what you said about needing more than the names Dan and Phil; even if it's not as tangible as Buffy binges or Youtube or factual events, it seems to me that there's some kind of interpretation of canon that happens any time someone decides what traits to keep in a fic that's not trying to keep them all.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by whatdoiknow » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:53 am

Templeofshame wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:32 am
I often see people on phanfictioncatalogue or places like that trying to find a fic with x plot, and the answer is 'oh that's this hc here.' Some of those might be false identifications or the seeker might be misremembering what it was, but some register in the seeker's memory as being a fic because they're only distinct from phanfic in that the author called them hcs. I wouldn't personally argue that all hcs are fic, but I do think there's gray area. I have included at least one such hc in a fic rec list, so, [shrug]. That's me.
Ohh okay, that's interesting! Maybe it's because I don't usually see headcanons on tumblr, or rather, the ones I do see are very short, like a few sentences of the person mentioning their headcanons. But now that I'm thinking about it, I remember seeing these types of headcanons in a past fandom that could probably be classified as a short fic by some people. So yeah, you're right, there is a grey area there. I guess it would depend on the context, like the way the headcanon is written. I'm not sure how to word this right, but a fic would be more in the structure where it reads like a story, whereas a headcanon would read more as "I think Dan and Phil do this... blah blah blah". (that was a poor example, but hopefully you get my point).
Yeah, I guess what I meant by "use of canon" was more or less what you said about needing more than the names Dan and Phil; even if it's not as tangible as Buffy binges or Youtube or factual events, it seems to me that there's some kind of interpretation of canon that happens any time someone decides what traits to keep in a fic that's not trying to keep them all.
Hmm yeah. I interpret 'canon' to mean including real aspects of their lives. So, either actually being very canon compliant, like having them be youtubers and following the same path of their lives. Or, alternatively, the fic could be an AU, but also contain 'canon' elements, like including references to things they have mentioned doing/liking/whatever in real life.

I guess a fic that I wouldn't consider 'canon' but I would still consider a 'phanfic' because it is in character, would be something that didn't remotely mention any 'real life' references, but kept them in character (i.e. the same physical descriptions, and some of the same emotional/mental characteristics - for example, them being introverts, Dan struggling with depression, Phil being clumsy, etc etc).

I think we're basically talking about the same thing, but that's where I would make the distinction.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:20 am

I agree that if it starts with a "I think they do this" or some framing thing like an "imagine" I wouldn't consider that fic. I do think there are stylistic differences; I looked back at the one I was thinking of, and I think it's notable that it doesn't have a title and there's less attention to capitalization and punctuation than you'd generally see in a fic. But to me, the differences are in presentation, not in the actual nature of the story and how it's told.

Yeah, I'm just considering something as small as "Phil is clumsy" to be use of canon (on a spectrum that goes to well-researched, canon compliant fic). I think the reference to physical description is interesting; in some low-characterization phanfic, I feel like there's reliance on physical description to attach to the idea that it's D&P. But now I'm getting off topic thinking of the types of appearance modification we see in phanfic; you might get species changes (cat, mermaid, alien), cis swap, aesthetic things (i.e. punk and pastel) or height/size changes, but I think it's pretty rare to change their appearances in other ways, and within each of those they're generally still going to have some semblance of hair/eye colors. I don't have a point, I just find it kind of interesting that some aspects of appearance seem more essential to the characterization than other attributes.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by whatdoiknow » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:41 am

Templeofshame wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:20 am
I agree that if it starts with a "I think they do this" or some framing thing like an "imagine" I wouldn't consider that fic. I do think there are stylistic differences; I looked back at the one I was thinking of, and I think it's notable that it doesn't have a title and there's less attention to capitalization and punctuation than you'd generally see in a fic. But to me, the differences are in presentation, not in the actual nature of the story and how it's told.
Yes, stylistic differences, that's what I was trying to convey. Thanks for explaining that so much better than I could! I do see fics posted on ao3 that don't adhere to all the rules of capitalization, punctuation, etc. and I still consider them fics. But essentially, yeah, I think we're mostly on the same wavelength here if I'm understanding correctly.
Yeah, I'm just considering something as small as "Phil is clumsy" to be use of canon (on a spectrum that goes to well-researched, canon compliant fic). I think the reference to physical description is interesting; in some low-characterization phanfic, I feel like there's reliance on physical description to attach to the idea that it's D&P. But now I'm getting off topic thinking of the types of appearance modification we see in phanfic; you might get species changes (cat, mermaid, alien), cis swap, aesthetic things (i.e. punk and pastel) or height/size changes, but I think it's pretty rare to change their appearances in other ways, and within each of those they're generally still going to have some semblance of hair/eye colors. I don't have a point, I just find it kind of interesting that some aspects of appearance seem more essential to the characterization than other attributes.
Yeah, I can see how that could be deemed as 'canon'. It's a very vague term when you get down to it, especially in terms of rpf as opposed to characters from a tv show or something.

That's a really good point about physical descriptions too! Like you said, there's usually at least some physical attribute that the author references that still relates to the real person even if they're an entirely different species (like you said, hair or eye colour, or something of that sort). I'm not sure if they're actually 'more essential' or if they're just the easiest thing to keep the same? Like, if you're going to change species completely, you can't exactly keep the same height, body shape, etc, so you have to go with the physical attributes that are common to most species, such as eyes. The same with cis swap - you'll have different body shapes (and parts) going on, but you can still easily keep the same hair and eye colour.

(Ah I was meant to be going to sleep, but I couldn't resist replying again because I'm finding this really interesting)

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by huphilpuffs » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:38 am

Hello! I'm a new poster here so I first want to apologize if it seems like I'm butting into anything, but I found this discussion really interesting and wanted to chime in. I think a lot of what was said above is fairly consistent with my view of things, but here are some rambles:

I think what makes something a phanfic rather than merely a fanfic can be fairly simple to define. As you guys said, the presence of both Dan and Phil with some relationship between them, no matter the nature of that relationship. But I think another thing that differentiates it, to me, is the focus of the story. I think their relationship should be one of the central characteristics. While plot and other dynamics can certainly be the most important, I wouldn't necessairly consider a fic about, say, Phil and PJ together with platonic dnp as a side relationship to really be a phanfic, even though they're both included and have a relationship with each other.

I also think it's difficult to define what makes dnp, well, dnp in a fic. I've certainly read stories where it seemed as though one, or both of them, had a completely different personality than they actually do, although their general appearance was the same. Stories, for example, where Phil is punk and has piercings, smokes and is rude to everyone around him while simultaneously being a total player. It's difficult, no matter the presence of blue eyes and some clumsiness, to say that such a presentation of him is intentionally trying to maintain his characterization. Yet at the same time, linking that presentation to Dan and Phil is quite easy given the traits, often physical, that they do share. I think for this it might depend more on intent than anything else, to me. A writer who knows nothing about dnp could easily create a character who they happen to name Phil who has black hair and blue eyes, and is perhaps rather kind to everyone, and yet that wouldn't be phanfic either. Whereas a writer could just as easily give Phil purple hair and red contact lenses and make him an extreme extrovert, with the intention of it being Phil in mind, and that story, for categorization sake. would still be phanfic to me. Bad phanfic, probably, but still phanfic.

The conversation about what separates an hc from a fic was super interesting to read! I often found myself agreeing with everyone's opinions at once (oops). I'm not actually sure what differentiates it for me? Perhaps an hc should just be considered a subset of fanfic the way drabbles or aus could be considered as such. When reading them, I find the main differences between an hc and a fic are generally the formatting and the writing style. hcs, in my experience, tend to have a lot more action, some dialogue, and very little narration. setting, for example, often seems irrelevant if it doesn't directly affect the characters. But looking at this, its difficult for me to see it as a fundamental divergence from story, when equally so there are definitely fics on ao3 with limited narration or development of setting. It makes me think, again, that perhaps the main separation comes from intent? I'm not sure, however, what those two intents would be. I would suggest that the intent of fic is the develop of story, while the intention of hcs are to tell a snapshot, but there are definitely fics that tell simple snapshots and probably things formatted like hcs that tell a more in depth story. I'm really not sure. I'd love to keep hearing your thoughts as I mull it over a little more. :)
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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:50 pm

huphilpuffs wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:38 am
But I think another thing that differentiates it, to me, is the focus of the story. I think their relationship should be one of the central characteristics. While plot and other dynamics can certainly be the most important, I wouldn't necessairly consider a fic about, say, Phil and PJ together with platonic dnp as a side relationship to really be a phanfic, even though they're both included and have a relationship with each other.
I would tend to agree with this, that whatever the relationship is between D&P, it should be central to the fic (e.g., light through an open door contains kickthesticks, but it isn't a kickthesticks fic, because the phan relationship is central). This is kind of making me realize that maybe the fic I just posted isn't actually a phanfic, because to me the relationship between Dan & Phil is a given and the backdrop, but the fic isn't really about it. I think that's okay but it maybe feels weirder when there isn't another ship to be the central ship?

On your point about characterization and intention, it makes sense (my concept of a spectrum based on how central the characterization is and how much they feel like D&P is very subjective), but I think a lot of assumptions have to be made about intention? Like, if someone presents a fic as phanfic, we assume that their intent was for D&P to be D&P, and that's a pretty solid assumption, but I also feel like there are reasons that characters might not feel like D&P besides a failed attempt at the characterization. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I can think of circumstances where a writer might choose to present something as phanfic even if the original creative impulse wasn't to write a piece of phanfic. And I wouldn't argue that that's fake phanfic or anything, and it wouldn't be feasible necessarily to identify, I guess maybe all I'm saying is that it might be more about the author's choice of how to present the story than about creative intent. I guess maybe the obvious choice would be to look at 50 Shades of Gray: is it, according to its original creative intent, Twilight fanfic? Is it an original novel as it has been presented? Can it be both? I guess it's an original novel adapted from a fanfic (to be clear, I haven't read either form, so I don't know anything really). So maybe that's what something would be if it's presented as phanfic while the original creative intent was specific to Dan & Phil. Not that we'd know unless the writer tells us.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by lefthandedism » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:04 am

I'm excited to see all the discussion!

Head canons: I hadn't thought about head canons (and their interesting characteristic that they escape the label of phanfic and thus often get more widely distributed than more traditional fics). I certainly think hcs fit our definitions so far.

Characterization: I do agree with @Templeofshame that characterization is key. We want Dan to feel like Dan and Phil to feel like Phil, and hair and eye color aren't enough. Of course, "feeling" they are in character is certainly subjective, and everyone has a slightly different idea of what their characters are. One of the most interesting kinds of phanfic to me is where the author draws Dan or Phil in a novel way, which makes you think about whether you really know this person (this character!) at all. A great example of this is by queerofcups (if you haven't read everything they have written you should do so immediately!). In one to love you sweetly (warning: E rated), there is the line "Phil, who keeps his circles small and obligations few, can’t really bring himself to care enough to figure out....". This is not a typical characterization of Phil--someone who is pleasant and well-liked, but doesn't actually care much one way or another about people outside his small circle. But it made me think, and it's not really inconsistent with what we know. So, characterization isn't simply a tool for proving we're talking about Dan and Phil here, but for exploring who Dan and Phil are.

Role of the relationship: While I think there are three key elements of phanfiction--a Dan, a Phil, and a relationship between them--I don't think that relationship has to be the central relationship to the narrative. For example, most parent!phan focuses on parent-child relationship(s) with the Deppy relationship much more of a given. As long as those three key elements exist, we are in a phanfic universe and from there anything goes (or does it?).
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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:05 pm

lefthandedism wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:04 am
Characterization: I do agree with @Templeofshame that characterization is key. We want Dan to feel like Dan and Phil to feel like Phil, and hair and eye color aren't enough. Of course, "feeling" they are in character is certainly subjective, and everyone has a slightly different idea of what their characters are. One of the most interesting kinds of phanfic to me is where the author draws Dan or Phil in a novel way, which makes you think about whether you really know this person (this character!) at all. A great example of this is by queerofcups (if you haven't read everything they have written you should do so immediately!). In one to love you sweetly (warning: E rated), there is the line "Phil, who keeps his circles small and obligations few, can’t really bring himself to care enough to figure out....". This is not a typical characterization of Phil--someone who is pleasant and well-liked, but doesn't actually care much one way or another about people outside his small circle. But it made me think, and it's not really inconsistent with what we know. So, characterization isn't simply a tool for proving we're talking about Dan and Phil here, but for exploring who Dan and Phil are.
I definitely think the role of interpretation is important in how characterization works, and sometimes it's kind of the thesis of a fic. Sometimes fics take accepted characterizations and put focus on nuances or the situation they're put in, but sometimes it's 'what if we extrapolate other stuff from this thing we know about them?' or 'what if we interpret this external thing as telling us internal character things we haven't considered?' I love that. I love getting new perspectives on who these guys are, or could be, from what we know, what we don't, and what we imagine.
lefthandedism wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:04 am
Role of the relationship: While I think there are three key elements of phanfiction--a Dan, a Phil, and a relationship between them--I don't think that relationship has to be the central relationship to the narrative. For example, most parent!phan focuses on parent-child relationship(s) with the Deppy relationship much more of a given. As long as those three key elements exist, we are in a phanfic universe and from there anything goes (or does it?).
I think, for better or worse, the way we categorize fic does revolve around pairings, so if there's no other, more prominent pairing, it's probably phanfic (e.g. parent!phan), but if you've got Dan and Phil and a different central pairing, it's likely to be categorized according to that pairing (e.g. phimmy with Dan as a side character) rather than as phanfic.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by whatdoiknow » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:26 pm

Templeofshame wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:05 pm
I think, for better or worse, the way we categorize fic does revolve around pairings, so if there's no other, more prominent pairing, it's probably phanfic (e.g. parent!phan), but if you've got Dan and Phil and a different central pairing, it's likely to be categorized according to that pairing (e.g. phimmy with Dan as a side character) rather than as phanfic.
Hmm I see your point. But does phanfic refer to fic about the pairing 'phan', or does it refer to fic within the scope of the phandom? Because if you interpret phanfic to mean fanfiction that is about the 'phandom', then as long as Dan and Phil are in the fic and there's some sort of relationship between them, would it still qualify as a 'phanfic'? Like, with your example, couldn't it be both a 'phimmy' fic and a 'phanfic', if we're using the broader 'fandom' definition of 'phan'?

I think it's a bit of a trickier thing to define, because phanfic can mean both 'phan' the pairing, and the 'phandom'. A lot of other fandoms are easier to define this for. Like, if we took a one direction fic for example - if it was a fic about, say, harry dating zayn, with louis as a side character, it would be a 1D fic, but not a 'larry' fic. But since 'phan' and 'phandom' are two separate things, 'phanfic' isn't as easy to define, I don't think.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:47 pm

whatdoiknow wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:26 pm

Hmm I see your point. But does phanfic refer to fic about the pairing 'phan', or does it refer to fic within the scope of the phandom? Because if you interpret phanfic to mean fanfiction that is about the 'phandom', then as long as Dan and Phil are in the fic and there's some sort of relationship between them, would it still qualify as a 'phanfic'? Like, with your example, couldn't it be both a 'phimmy' fic and a 'phanfic', if we're using the broader 'fandom' definition of 'phan'?

I think it's a bit of a trickier thing to define, because phanfic can mean both 'phan' the pairing, and the 'phandom'. A lot of other fandoms are easier to define this for. Like, if we took a one direction fic for example - if it was a fic about, say, harry dating zayn, with louis as a side character, it would be a 1D fic, but not a 'larry' fic. But since 'phan' and 'phandom' are two separate things, 'phanfic' isn't as easy to define, I don't think.
I guess it gets more tangled there, because to me fics that involve Dan or Phil but not both would fall within the scope of the phandom, but I know at least some phanfic stuff explicitly excludes them (Dan/reader or Phil/reader being the most common examples that come up, but I'd expect places that exclude those to also exclude phimmy, danrific, amazingskies, etc. if the other half isn't involved). You make a good point about the differentiation, and maybe that's why the ao3 tag specifies the phandom (as well as explicitly including Chris & PJ and thus fic that's fully outside the phanfic scope) to be inclusive beyond "phan." But even something like Phandom Fic Fests, with an inclusive title, specifies it is for fic that "features Dan and Phil as the main pairing," which might include platonic/brotp D&P, but would exclude my phimmy example.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by Templeofshame » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:35 am

Just to complicate my own point with the example of Phandom Fic Fests, I noticed that while the main guidelines include "features Dan and Phil as the main pairing" as I had quoted, in the FAQs we get "we only ask that the main pairing include Dan or Phil." If I were writing an essay, I'd use it as potential evidence that no one has really decided whether phanfic has to be about "Dan & Phil" or just within the phandom.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by huphilpuffs » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:21 am

(Yes it's 2am and no I'm totally not writing this to procrastinate homework idk why you'd think such a thing.)

This isn't totally relevant to the place the convos at now, but I was reading more hcs over the last few days and noticed something else that I think might help differentiate them from fic. A lot of the ones I read used "ing" verbs almost exclusively, as though the writer was presenting a hypothetical rather than a story. It's actually quite similar to how I, in my stories, would describe Dan or Phil imagining somethings (ex: Dan could imagine Phil stepping towards him, reaching up to cradle his jaw, and leaning in to press their lips together). It's obviously not a rule about hcs, since many people characterize their work as hcs but use other verb forms, but I found it interesting nonetheless.

Besides that, the conversation of phan (ship) vs phandom is really interesting. I keep trying to mentally find the boundaries of each definition, and yet can't really define them for myself, much less indicate what I think should actually define either. I think, either way, I'd need at least Dan or Phil to be one of the main characters. However, I still don't think I'd consider a fic with just one of them a phanfic. It would still belong in the phandom tag on tumblr, but I think that the word phanfic implies Phil + Dan + fic. Idk. As someone said previously, I think it's because we tend to define stories by their romantic (or main platonic, if there is no romance) pairing, so a fic that, for example, is about Dan and Nick Jonas, would be a dick fic in my opinion, rather than a phanfic. (Yes, I chose Nick Jonas solely so I could say "dick fic").

Another example to maybe complicate things: I wonder how you guys would characterize fics with story lines that focus on a dnp platonic pairing, with a secondary character love interest. For example, a story about how dnp's friendship handles Dan's new relationship with Nick Jonas. Phanfic or dick fic or phandom fic or ....?

It's almost like we need a word for fic focusing on the pairing and a word for fic focusing on either both or just one of them outside of that pairing. Like phanfic and dnp fic or something. :reading1:

(okay back to homework not that I got that off my mind.)
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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by lefthandedism » Mon May 21, 2018 4:10 am

:reading1: Second Meta-Question for the IDB Book Club :reading2:

It's been a month since the first question (What makes a written work a phanfic?)--time to tackle the next one!

When talking about what makes a phanfic, a lot of us referenced characterization: somehow the characters of Dan and Phil have to be drawn so that they are recognizable as Dan and Phil.

What role does characterization play in making a work a phanfic?

Is characterization about physical attributes? Recognizable behaviors? Known (canon) history? How they relate to each other?

What if they are ghosts? Or kittens? What if they are in an AU with no reference to canon (like another planet a million years from now)? What if their relationship is platonic/they never meet/they are stepbrothers?

Do the characters "Dan" and "Phil" have to be, in some essential way, like the real-life Dan and Phil?

Or, how do we know it's Dan and Phil?
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