IDB Book Club

Our two favourite full time internet nerds who never go outside!
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LtrllySusan
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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by LtrllySusan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:51 pm

:reading1: IDB Book Club: Revival Edition :reading2:

Hi all!
I wanted to get you guys' opinion on the video of Jacksepticeye talking about fanfiction and Septiplier with H3H3.
Since it sort of fits the scope of this thread and because this thread deserves a revival, I wanted to post it in here. (And I got @lefthandedism's approval beforehand)

The video:

Warning: Homophobic language, NSFW content (audio & visual)

I would really love to hear you guys' opinions on this, especially if you actively write fanfiction (I know we have some very talented people here on IDB). But of course, if you're just a reader, feel free to discuss as well!

Inspiration for discussion:
You don't have to answer all (or any) of these, but these questions can serve as a starting point for our discussion:
  • They point out some "beautifully written" parts, but overall seem to take a rather negative stance towards fanfiction. What are positive aspects of fanfiction?
  • What part does the creative corner play within a fandom? Why is it good/bad to have this part of a fandom, and how does it influence the real person and their success?
  • How was the video perceived in Jack's community and how has it influenced your opinion on Jack?
  • How are D&P handling their creative community compared to Jack, and compared to other YouTubers?
  • To what extend are the opening remarks about sodomy problematic or homophobic?
    "explicit, grotesque sex" - "Is there anything rape-y about sodomy" - "make love to someone's asshole"
  • Jack and H3H3 accuse (for the lack of a better term) the fans of overstepping a line, but have they overstepped a line by invading fan space?
  • Which measures can we - the readers and writers - take to avoid the real person's discomfort? What measures can the real person take?



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fieldoflovers
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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by fieldoflovers » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:56 pm

I'm gonna be real with you, to get through this video, I first watched Dan's The Urge and then Giving the People What they Want, just because I could tell that they were gonna shit all over fanfic and fandom in general and I needed a bit of armour.

After watching the video, I actually think Jack is fairly reasonable in his discomfort, he is right that it's not the same thing as fictional characters and him being treated as a fictional character feels strange. The one part that stood out to me was when he was talking about liveshows and someone yelling out "septiplier" and him saying "no don't say that, there are kids here". That made me wince, because it is a presumption that gay relationships are inherently sexual and inappropriate for children. I don't know if Jack gets shipped with women but the reaction if someone had yelled out a hetro ship would be different I imagine. The fourth wall has been crumbling and I imagine they get tagged in a lot of things so they are exposed to it and honestly if they didn't stem out of fandom I can see why mark and jack think its inappropriate (esp cause people who come from fandom also sometimes don't like rpf)

I think at points h3h3 were genuinely putting words into Jack's mouth, because seemed to be trying to be nice to his fans and respect their creativity whereas ethan and hila really came across as aggressively demonizing fans and they were both being kind of awful. I don't watch them a whole lot but calling people "sick" for writing fic? that's a bit extreme, to me fanfic isn't even that weird if you've been on the internet for more than a little bit. Also the concept of let's show this person fanfic/fanart and see how they react is tired, boring and honestly makes them look really shitty, making someone feel uncomfortable on purpose is a shitty move

Also as someone who writes phanfic, straight white men are never going to change my opinion on it.
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obsessivelymoody
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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by obsessivelymoody » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:36 am

I've been avoiding watching that video on purpose because nothing that a bunch of straight white people who know literally nothing about the complexities of fandom or rpf have to say is going to change my mind about it. But I watched it because I think it's an interesting discussion, even though the phandom is a little different regarding rpf in this case, and as I said, I've already made up my mind.

The first few minutes of this video were extremely hard to get through. The whole thing left a really sour taste in my mouth (which I expected it to tbh), and I had to watch a cute video to cleanse my palate because christ, I'm exhausted by those kinds of attitudes.

I will say that Jack seemed to be more respectful than not through the video (despite the blatantly homophobic comments but I'll talk about that later), though I think he was missing the mark at points. I also have to agree with @fieldoflovers that h3h3 were putting words into his mouth and manipulating what he was saying to make fans look even worse which is just shitty, and that the reaction bit is worthy of several eye rolls.

What part does the creative corner play within a fandom? Why is it good/bad to have this part of a fandom, and how does it influence the real person and their success?
A fandom isn't going to thrive without people creatively contributing to it. Sure basic discussion is a part of it, but discussion =/= longevity. There are fandoms who haven't been given new content in years to talk about that are large and thriving because of the people who make fic and art. Creativity is the backbone of a fandom that lasts more than it's initial blip of popularity (and some fandoms don't even have popularity to get started and stay thriving! They just thrive off of the community and the creative contributions that come with it!). I've been in a few past fandoms that are barely fandoms anymore, and the reason that they 'died' is because there weren't enough people contributing creatively to the community and keeping it alive. Without the added interest in fanworks, how is a fandom supposed to live the way it did in its heyday when there's no new canon?
The second part of this question is interesting because I recently joined a fandom that's so private and kept under wraps to essentially preserve the careers of the people the fandom is about incase anything were to happen if certain sources were to stumble upon the fanworks (or the guys themselves because they are not short of googling themselves and uh, that would be interesting to say the least). In this case, it has a lot to do with integrity within the (traditional) media and politics instead of just being a youtuber, so I'd say the stakes are a bit higher in this specific case (though I will say it's definitely not the norm). Regardless of that, due to the way the interests of teens and women are treated, in certain view points, it can 'tarnish' a career. However, the actions of fans and fandoms are never enough to have a hugely negative impact someone's career. I mean, when was the last time you heard about someone's career flopping because of their fanbase? I think in some cases the way a person acts with their fanbase can positively influence their career by giving them the reputation of being kind to the people who make their livelihood possible. But I suppose that's a whole other conversation.

How are D&P handling their creative community compared to Jack, and compared to other YouTubers?
Maybe this is just me but as someone who believes that they're in a relationship, I think it helps them maintain their glass closet, and function within a glass closet. I can't remember where or who made this post I saw awhile back (I just don't want to claim this thought as my own), but it basically said that they (deppy) don't have much of an issue with shippy and/or explicit fanart and fic and a community where the majority believes they're in a relationship because people (the patriarchy) turn their noses up at the interests of young women, teens, and queer people. So it's kind of a safe space for them to be hiding their relationship but also in a sense not hiding, to the people who care enough to look a little closer. I mean, they wrote fics themselves and published them in their book. And they've stated numerous times that they don't care about people's shippy fanworks. But then we also have things like the tumblr tag videos and ii consistently mentioning how weird fic is which kind of makes a mockery of it all. Deppy aren't perfect but they're definitely doing a fuck of a lot better than most bigger youtubers regarding their fandoms and the shipping culture within them.

To what extend are the opening remarks about sodomy problematic or homophobic?
This was the hardest bit of the video for me to get through. And it's the beginning of the fucking thing. It's homophobia disguised as a joke that could easily be passed off as "ha you're just soft and taking it the wrong way! look at what I said about it not being wrong here! I'm not homophobic at all!" ...yeah, you are. Anal/oral sex is still sex. Straight people can "commit sodomy" by the modern definition they chose to read out. But it's gay so it must be sodomy huh? And it must be said in a tone that mocks and degrades it to something that's gross and wrong when it's between two men. Idk I don't have another answer besides that it's loosely disguised homophobia that they won't be call out on because of tone and quick comments in between the jokes that excuse it and follow the same lines of the 'I'm sorry you're hurt by what I did' excuse.

Jack and H3H3 accuse (for the lack of a better term) the fans of overstepping a line, but have they overstepped a line by invading fan space?
lol I feel like I've had this discussion a millions times in several other fandoms (and I mean, obviously in this one too), but the fandom is not for the creator, it's for fans. I don't give a fuck if they're an online personality or a traditional celeb or whatever, if you're creating something and you have a fanbase that makes art and shit about your stuff don't go into that community because you want to know what's up or you're a narcissist. Fan spaces are called fan spaces for a reason. I'm sure most of the people here would be appalled if they found out deppy read idb regularly. Idk I'm a huge fan of the fourth wall, and I think that unless the fan themselves decides to link their art or whatever to the creator (which uh...certain things can slide in this category to me while others very much don't) then that's fine but if the creator themselves is looking through fan spaces they're most certainly crossing a line.

Which measures can we - the readers and writers - take to avoid the real person's discomfort? What measures can the real person take?
Don't tag the person in your shippy fanworks. Just don't. There's no reason for you to make them aware of it. Also don't send it to their partners/relatives *cough*. If the fanworks are something the creator has expressed disscontempt towards, private that shit. There's a reason ao3 has the option of making fics unavailable to anyone without an account and there's a reason why you can have private tumblrs/twitters/instagrams. And the real person can stop googling themselves to start. They can get their heads out of fandom spaces and focus on providing content/doing their jobs so the fanbase can keep living instead of feeling alienated. They can make a statement about things they've seen that make them uncomfortable and then they can choose to ignore stuff.

I feel like I could go on, but those are my thoughts right now and it's getting late in my timezone so I'm going to check out before I say anything really silly.

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Re: IDB Book Club

Post by queerofcups » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:42 am

omg, i typed out this long long response that IDB ate. I'll condense it down to, i fully agree with everything moody's said, so hard, and the answer to this question.
Which measures can we - the readers and writers - take to avoid the real person's discomfort? What measures can the real person take?
I think the best measure we can take is to rebuild, maintain and respect the fourth wall. We can stop asking and expecting normies who don't understand fandom to validate us just because they're canon-creators, we can recognize that we're a community that they're actually not a part of and we can recognize that motherfuckers like this h3h3 guy have 0 interest or intention in actually having a conversation about fandom (which is a shame because there are so many interesting and smart conversations that could be had about RPF/S and public persona v actual people).

Also, final note, mainstreaming of fandom was the worst thing to happen to us, bring back the fourth wall

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