Dan & Phil Part 72: Always a Gaytime

[jaej]

the thing is even the misinformation and generalisations about the soviet union in the uk still put it EXTREMELY negatively so it's not like they could've just heard a few things and interpreted them as good out of context because like... where would they have heard that

that being said in a lot of lefty type circles there's a lot of people who base their viewpoints off of memes and don't get information from like... sources... so the get conclusions like socialism = good and ussr = socialism so stalin = good? flag good? and it's like NO you are missing very fundamental information about what communism is and why a dictatorship with a VERY POWERFUL STATE is never communism and not what to make your funny ironic memes about (NOT that other sides don't take political ideology solely from memes and youtube like bullshit capitalists making bad references to animal farm or venezuela or whatever the evil commie talking point is that week on twitter)

anyway i can't believe phil went from a tory to a tankie in less than a decade. amazingpolpot

[000dia000]

They would definitely know what the flag is, it has to be one of the most recognisable symbols in the world. I don't think they thought anything ahead of this from just "lol meme" and that because the fan brought it along that it surely it shouldn't be a problem Jesus, I'm not looking forward to the hoops fans will jump through to try and defend this. Deppy are going to log back into social media in a few days and shit will hit the fan.

[Phantasy]

Is there really universal acrimony over the Solviet flag? Like are there people that prop it up as some symbol of hate like the swaztika or even the Confederate flag? Not belittling the reminder of the scorge of communisim, but I just see it as an out of favor symbol of a time past—a bitter reminder to some, but benign to most. It's a dangerous and slippery slope to equate it to a symbol of hate such as the Nazi flag, that's used to this day to spread fear and bigotry. Not everything is a scandal. Not every slight political incorrectness should be a rally cry for D&P to get woke.

[Sunshine]

I’m sure DnP will be very embarrassed when they figure out what they have done. They won’t have done that for a laugh, they’re not heartless, they just haven’t recognised the flag. I am a 40 year old, professional who had to go and look up what it meant. That’s not to say, I don’t know some of the communist history of The USSR and Russia. I learnt it as school 25 years ago, so it’s not familiar to me in the present.

Having said that, someone should have checked! The minute that flag came in someone should have googled it! By the time it got to DnP, they have to assume it’s ok, they haven’t really got time to make that decision. I imagine, DnP are quite cross with their team tonight.

Also, what kind of fans intentionally mislead and upset their idols?

[Philena]

Is there really universal acrimony over the Solviet flag? Like are there people that prop it up as some symbol of hate like the swaztika or even the Confederate flag? Not belittling the reminder of the scorge of communisim, but I just see it as an out of favor symbol of a time past—a bitter reminder to some, but benign to most. It's a dangerous and slippery slope to equate it to a symbol of hate such as the Nazi flag, that's used to this day to spread fear and bigotry. Not everything is a scandal. Not every slight political incorrectness should be a rally cry for D&P to get woke.

I don't actually equate the communist flag with swastikas or rebel flags, but was simply trying to make a point. I do think it is questionable to have your actual face aligned with certain political messages whilst in the midst of a world tour. That is all!

[jaej]

Is there really universal acrimony over the Solviet flag? Like are there people that prop it up as some symbol of hate like the swaztika or even the Confederate flag? Not belittling the reminder of the scorge of communisim, but I just see it as an out of favor symbol of a time past—a bitter reminder to some, but benign to most. It's a dangerous and slippery slope to equate it to a symbol of hate such as the Nazi flag, that's used to this day to spread fear and bigotry. Not everything is a scandal. Not every slight political incorrectness should be a rally cry for D&P to get woke.

for most people who're familiar with it it's going to bring up genocide, oppressive regimes or the cold war period in general, but how strong is going to depend on where you are and how strongly capitalist your own society was. for a lot of people the union flag is going to bring up a very shitty image of imperialism, genocides, oppressive regimes, etc, but for more people it's harmless and nice

i do think it was a REALLY stupid move but i do agree that it's not a good idea to compare it to a nazi flag. generally when i see people using hammer and sickle type iconography it's about supporting communism as a whole and workers rights, not the horrible aspects of the regime but being really oblivious and misguided about a bad thing. when someone's using nazi iconography, it's about genocide and white supremacy, there isn't a way to say it's about the core movement ideals and not the reality of the movement, because the core ideals of nazis are the nationalism and genocide

honestly they had to make a blunder at some point along the tour, they have an 'oops' moment every so often just at home

[hello9217]

Totally going off topic here for a second but the venue live streamed the first half of the show. Angry phil dm coming through soon.

[autumnhearth]

If their goal was to make them confused or uncomfortable that’s pretty shitty.

*This* is how you do a cute M&G pose with a piece of fabric:

And oh dear to the live streaming.

[missemma]

To those of you saying the management should have stopped it, during the m&g they aren’t actively standing watching their every move. Marianne for instance preps people before they go up - as in tries to make them feel comfortable but doesn’t vet what people take. You’d assume fans wouldn’t try and be offensive or stupid like that (not saying that D&P shouldn’t know better though). If you look at this video for example from today, Marianne has her back to them the whole time:

Whilst I agree D&P should have been more sensitive, the fan shouldn’t have taken the flag in the first place. What was she trying to achieve other than causing upset.

Totally going off topic here for a second but the venue live streamed the first half of the show. Angry phil dm coming through soon.

Ohhhh is there a link

[SquishPhan]

[sonicgreen]

Hm, another scheduled tweet I assume?

[ratlad]

scheduled tweet?

[so_cheesy]

Yes Phil, it really does sound dumb tonight

[lilabet]

Put me in for another person who didn't recognize the flag. I couldn't tell you what Russias current flag is and would probably have assumed this was it. Not everyone learns the same thing or retains it all 10 years later.
You could maybe equate it to the US Confederate flag which again a lot of people still use even though it's associated with slavery. Dan and Phil would probably not pose with that but we get much more US news/images and hardly any Russian so that learning would be reinforced.
I don't blame them for this, but what was that fan thinking?

[knq]

That looks so bad. If Phil wanted to seem more authentic in 2018, automating some generic tweets to post is the opposite of that. For those who don’t realize it’s scheduled, it makes him look like he’s either out of touch with his fans or doesn’t care about those who are upset by him posing with the USSR flag.

On the other hand, Dan will probably enjoy not being the one to make things worse for once.

[hello9217]

Totally going off topic here for a second but the venue live streamed the first half of the show. Angry phil dm coming through soon.

Ohhhh is there a link

Don't know how to link it but the insta is @vegascityhall. Its still up currently if you click on the icon and then click watch live video.

[Catallena]

Uh, right... not a smart move there Depz.

tbh I can believe they didn't recognize the flag, (nuanced) education on historic subjects like this is just lacking at times. Even in Europe. I know people love to bring up how woke and politically savvy Dan in particular is, but it's not like that hasn't stopped him from being a moron at times so...

They're doing a lot to avoid controversy at these Russia shows, but it seems that like whoever brought them and their team up to speed on Russian free speech and LGBT laws and stuff skipped the controversial flag part. Posing with flags they can't instantly recognize is still a pretty stupid thing to do regardless. Opinions on communism aside, they shouldn't have done this. But mostly yikes @ the edgelord fan just wanting to stir up shit.

I have a feeling that from now on, management will keep more of an eye on what things are brought in the meet & greets. At least for a while...

[rizzo]

I have faith in both of them enough to believe they recognized the flag. For all of Dan's interest in politics, he must know.

That said, I think that they probably don't perceive it as negatively as others might. I definitely know plenty of people who don't. (I mean, look at Dan's face. It literally screams "trololol") And that was maybe not their smartest move. Ideally, they'd avoid anything political/controversial that they're not educated enough about it.

[coffeepenguin]

I am very surprised by the general reaction to the photo with the USSR flag. Seriously, this is me right now I mean, I am of course not defending all the horrible things the Soviet government did, as, I'm sure, no American person on here would defend slavery or British person would defend colonialism, but why anything communism-related is automatically labelled as evil? I'm honestly trying to understand, is it what is actually being taught in British and American schools? What about Karl Marx and workers' rights?

Basically, what jaej said, especially the part that I put in bold:

Is there really universal acrimony over the Solviet flag? Like are there people that prop it up as some symbol of hate like the swaztika or even the Confederate flag? Not belittling the reminder of the scorge of communisim, but I just see it as an out of favor symbol of a time past—a bitter reminder to some, but benign to most. It's a dangerous and slippery slope to equate it to a symbol of hate such as the Nazi flag, that's used to this day to spread fear and bigotry. Not everything is a scandal. Not every slight political incorrectness should be a rally cry for D&P to get woke.

for most people who're familiar with it it's going to bring up genocide, oppressive regimes or the cold war period in general, but how strong is going to depend on where you are and how strongly capitalist your own society was. for a lot of people the union flag is going to bring up a very shitty image of imperialism, genocides, oppressive regimes, etc, but for more people it's harmless and nice

i do think it was a REALLY stupid move but i do agree that it's not a good idea to compare it to a nazi flag. generally when i see people using hammer and sickle type iconography it's about supporting communism as a whole and workers rights, not the horrible aspects of the regime but being really oblivious and misguided about a bad thing. when someone's using nazi iconography, it's about genocide and white supremacy, there isn't a way to say it's about the core movement ideals and not the reality of the movement, because the core ideals of nazis are the nationalism and genocide

To put it bluntly, various soviet iconography is used in contemporary Russia mainly for four reasons: 1. by people who are nostalgic about the Soviet regime (yes, they actually do exist) either because they were younger then and life seemed happier, or because at the time they were being told by the government that they were the greatest nation on Earth, and they believed it, and the Internet didn't exist to fact check the propaganda, or some combination of the two. Because the current government is using the same propaganda now to distract the nation from thinking about the state of our economy, some younger people start believing it, too, and become nostalgic about something they don't actually know; 2. by people who don't believe anything at all, for political gain, in order to win support from the first category of people by promising them to bring it back even when it's clearly absolutely impossible; 3. to sell stuff to tourists or to the first category of people; 4. for the lulz by young people because it's the past. Btw, Putin himself falls under one of the first two categories, there's a large debate about which one exactly, but it doesn't really matter. The girl who brought the flag is either 1 or 4 (I'd say 4 more likely), but definitely not 2. So, to sum up, I don't see it any differently than, let's say, someone giving Dan nail polish at the M&G: selfish and done without thinking? Sure. Disgusting political statement/forcing Deppy to be apologists of crimes against humanity? Hell no.

[rizzo]

I am very surprised by the general reaction to the photo with the USSR flag. Seriously, this is me right now I mean, I am of course not defending all the horrible things the Soviet government did, as, I'm sure, no American person on here would defend slavery or British person would defend colonialism, but why anything communism-related is automatically labelled as evil? I'm honestly trying to understand, is it what is actually being taught in British and American schools? What about Karl Marx and workers' rights?

I'll say this first: I agree with you on a lot of your post, if I'm honest. The reaction genuinely surprised me as well and I said so to a few folks privately. I myself was born in the USSR and grew up in a "soviet" family, so I've seen the nostalgia you mention and have personally never experienced the kind of reaction happening to this picture right now.

But I say "personally", because my thinking, in an attempt to understand said reaction, is that it can be (and obviously is) perceived as a symbol for some of the atrocities that occurred under Stalin and that general regime. I mean, millions of people were killed and that's nothing to scoff at. So, on one hand I want to say "there's more to the soviet flag than what happened under Stalin", but on the other hand, you can say that for a lot of flags and symbols, so I kinda get it?

[missemma]

Don't know how to link it but the insta is @vegascityhall. Its still up currently if you click on the icon and then click watch live video.

Cheers I just watched (& saved) what they put up. It’s only about 5-6 minutes of the opening of the show but still don’t get how they were allowed to do that given how strict all the other venues have been!

[dailybooth]

Wow, all political or personal opinions aside, this was just a stupid move. If I was deppy, this would be one of the times I'd get down on my knees and thank my lucky stars I'm not more famous. Seriously, I can't imagine the scandal if this had happened with an A-list celeb.


Edit: the fact that my rank is now glabella makes me happy

[simmehchan]

In my opinion they probably didn't realise it would be taken this badly and just didn't say no to the girl because she might have been offended. To be honest, I wouldn't be sure if a Russian person may be offended if I did something like that.

[Grumpybisexual]

Oops, there's another one...



Judging by Dan's face on both pictures I would say he definitely knows what that flag means. And he's clearly not taking it seriously.
I personally don't have have a clear opinion on the situation. As a foreigner I don't feeling qualified to judge how bad (or not) it is to take a picture with this flag but yeah, not great ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[flarequake]

There’s another clip and boomerang on the venue’s instagram if you click their icon and view story.