Dan & Phil Part 72: Always a Gaytime

[captainspacecoat]

Wow yikes. Speaking personally, I didn't recognise it as the Soviet flag. I did recognise the hammer and sickle as a Communist symbol though. I don't know though, I can absolutely see why people are so outraged, but I don't think it's that simple. I have no doubt that at the very least Dan and Phil were aware that it was a communist flag, but that's potentially all they thought it was, and I don't think it's fair to condemn them for simply taking a photo with a fan and her communist flag, if that's all they thought it was (as in, if they weren't aware it was the flag of the Soviet union).

I'd also add that there are a lot of flags that could be considered controversial. There are a lot of people who consider the Australian flag as a symbol of genocide, colonialism and white supremacy, for example, yet there would of course be no controversy if they posed alongside it. Putting out a possibly very controversial opinion here, but the Union Jack could arguably be symbolic of the numerous people in colonised countries who were murdered or enslaved by the British.

It's obviously a lot more complicated than that, and I'm not necessarily saying I would condemn them for posing with an Australian flag (I would probably roll my eyes though lmao), I'm just saying the way we frame these issues is complicated and I hesitate to demonise Dan and Phil for this the way I would if they were to pose with something that is more immediately recognisable as symbolic of hatred such as the Nazi flag.

Edit: oh god top of the page with this :/

[smartcookie]

+1 to what Rizzo, coffeepenguin, phantasy and jaej said.
While I did recognise the flag once I saw it I most definitely didn’t think of the Cold War and genocide first. I by far first recognised it as a symbol of communism, and whilst no maybe they shouldn’t pose with political imagery, I don’t view it as inherently any worse than associating with any other political ideology. So whilst of course not ignoring everything bad associated with that imagery, I will give them the benefit of doubt and say that maybe they didn’t either immediately think of it in a genocidal way and more in the ‘ah communist flag’ way. Cos I know if I were in their shoes, I’d most definitely have made the same mistake and only realised it afterwards, seeing how short time they have with each person during the m&g’s.

though I will say, phil’s tweet, scheduled or not, came out at a incredibly bad timing and reads in this situation as impossibly tactless.

[yeetussy]

Today has just been yikes after yikes. I feel bad for what the boys are about to come back to when they end their detox: people mad at them about Rize, mad at them abt the flags, mad at them for not being more sensitive and considerate…yikes. I honestly wouldn’t wanna come back tbh but such is their life (since their work is social media).

I’ve acquired some major bad juju from the energy of the Twitter and tumblr phandom this past week and the boys’ detox couldn’t have come at a better time

[autumnhearth]

Yes Phil, it really does sound dumb tonight

Unfortunate scheduled timing aside, this tweet does make me happy. Whether it just means nice private vacations with a few pics posted here and there, lots of travel instastories or a full blown AmazingTravel channel/non-YouTube project with a scathing hotel review with every stop, I’m here for it. Move over Rick Steves, there’s a new guy in town.

[sweetlyphan]

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't know exactly what flag she had (I went to college but I didn't immediately associate that flag with communism- I had look at it and think about it) BUT I do hope they set some guidelines before they go anywhere else. Management really should have stepped in on this one because it's political and hopefully they'll say something about what's allowed and not allowed at M & G's in the future.

The person who posted it also posted it on Facebook and they were talking with their friends and said that they thought dan and phil had no idea what was going on. I think they were trying to be a bit controversial because one of their friends commented saying the point of bringing it was because they wanted them to be confused.

[missemma]

This m&g video made me laugh, poor Dan! (Check him out going in for a hug that doesn’t look like he’s pushing the person away. This m&g is Dans best yet)

[sweetlyphan]

Oops, there's another one...



Judging by Dan's face on both pictures I would say he definitely knows what that flag means. And he's clearly not taking it seriously.
I personally don't have have a clear opinion on the situation. As a foreigner I don't feeling qualified to judge how bad (or not) it is to take a picture with this flag but yeah, not great ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I found her post.

The translation was done by my computer so it may not be entirely accurate. I'll post the original too.

[alittledizzy]

Russian show notes are up in the transcripts thread.

Cute intro banter:

D: Phil would like to say something.
P: Privet! [hello]
D: Okay, calm down, lets be honest. Was that good? [audience screams yes/cheers] Alright! Good Phil, alright!
P: I spent so long googling that, I need to get it right for you guys!
D: Phil spent like twenty minutes [repeats Phil saying it wrong a few times] what he was originally trying to learn was zdravstvuyte [formal hello] but Phil was like stra..mu... spaghetti... stressed out? So that's as good as it's gonna get, and if we get any of your names so wrong tonight - we're trying.
P: We're trying our best!
D: But we're really stupid.
P: So I was shocked that it was actually warm yesterday when we went out!
D: I know, yeah!
P: For some reason in my head it was like, snow and bears and wolves everywhere-
D: It's June, Phil. No matter where you are on earth, it's June still.
P: True.
D: Phil's like, where's the bears? i'm like, that's offensive.
P: They're hibernating.
D: I'm just saying, if anyone wants to release a bear into the room, that would make Phil very excited.
P: It would. I'll look forward to that.
D: That's how you can improve the day.
P: Yeah! So, welcome to the show.

They really didn't censor much, if anyone was still under the impression they might. The differences I noticed are under the spoiler.

The stage set up was different (as has already been shown in a photo here) and they omitted the 'what's in Dan's box' segment, though I asked someone at the show and they speculated it might have been because of the language barrier. Dialogue wise, the only changes I noticed were:

- No joke about the lights being phallic, but that's because there were no lights on the stage.
- In the bar before the voiceover narration about what they don't do, Dan normally makes a joke about how they can't do some things because they're illegal or if not technically illegal then just awkward/messy/not polite to do on a stage. He left that out and replaced it with a line about how there are some things they just can't do, like ride in on an elephant.
- The Horse Prince simulation bit went to Dan instead of Phil this time, which to my knowledge is a first.
- Where he normally says, "Dan and Phil, super best friends and soulmates forever!" this time he just said "Dan and Phil, super best friends!"

[funphil]

Hello! Longtime lurker here, I just want to share my opinion on the USSR flag. I have a strong feeling that they didn't recognize it as a USSR flag but thought it was a flag representing communism since they both use the hammer and sickle symbol. I'm not sure how they were educated about this topic but here in China we literally have the communist symbol everywhere, but I didn't realize it was a USSR flag when I first saw it. However, as public figure, they really should have been more careful with this situation.

Just curious, how is communist portrayed in the textbook in your country. Since China is a communist state, we barely have anything negative about communist. I didn't even know the massacres in the Soviet Union until I learned to use VPN while i was in university

[lefthandedism]

Just curious, how is communist portrayed in the textbook in your country. Since China is a communist state, we barely have anything negative about communist. I didn't even know the massacres in the Soviet Union until I learned to use VPN while i was in university

Hello and !

I'm a bit older than most of the phandom, so maybe things have changed, but I certainly learned that communism was a system of government that has its pluses and minuses. I was also taught that all the countries with that system of government either eventually fail or do badly by their citizens or are bad actors in the world (so a bit of propaganda there). I think I was presented with the general idea that communism is a good idea in principle, but in practice, it usually goes badly, and hey, our system (capitalism/democracy) is so much better!

[mysterylovescompany]

Just curious, how is communist portrayed in the textbook in your country. Since China is a communist state, we barely have anything negative about communist. I didn't even know the massacres in the Soviet Union until I learned to use VPN while i was in university

i don't have much detailed knowledge of the soviet union other than the basics (but i did recognise the flag, did a double take, checked to make sure and was surprised that they would pose with it). in my last year of school i studied the chinese revolution as part of a history subject and i've also studied the formation of modern china at uni. when i went to china last year to study we talked a bit about things are censored even today to put mao in a good light even though he's been responsible for millions of deaths.

anyway, at my home uni we studied mao, the communist regime, the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, etc. the great leap forward was taught as undeniably a very bad thing to happen and a prime reason why communism is generally a bad idea. my uni tends to be a breeding ground for extreme socialist types and those students always try to have talks on marxism and stuff like that but i think the majority of students don't take them seriously. i'm in australia btw. i'd say i'm personally more left than right but it still bothers me that some people here try to tout extreme socialism and communism as good things and a perfect solution when there's so much bad history associated with communist regimes.

[papierklemmen]

what a clusterfuck.

the girl does say in the russian text that it's a meme. i'm pretty sure she means the "in soviet russia tv watches you" kinda stuff, which is pretty harmless, but i agree that it's a bit vague. i don't get why someone thought a young fan would want to make them uncomfortable, wtf?

honestly, the more i read this shit the more i wish they didn't come to russia. everyone reaches for the stars about every little thing to make it political/problematic. it was supposed to be a silly show for teens and kids to go to and have fun. it turned into overanalyzing and overreaction and unnecessary worries.

[so_cheesy]

what a clusterfuck.

the girl does say in the russian text that it's a meme. i'm pretty sure she means the "in soviet russia tv watches you" kinda stuff, which is pretty harmless, but i agree that it's a bit vague. i don't get why someone thought a young fan would want to make them uncomfortable, wtf?

honestly, the more i read this shit the more i wish they didn't come to russia. everyone reaches for the stars about every little thing to make it political/problematic. it was supposed to be a silly show for teens and kids to go to and have fun. it turned into overanalyzing and overreaction and unnecessary worries.

i mean, how exactly would waving a meter long soviet flag NOT be political? how is it a little thing? pepe the frog is a meme, this isn’t. It was poor taste and people are offended because the communist dictatorship affected them and their countries personally. the phandom really has a tendency to blow things out of proportion but this was not one of those moments

[Flomy]

Just curious, how is communist portrayed in the textbook in your country. Since China is a communist state, we barely have anything negative about communist. I didn't even know the massacres in the Soviet Union until I learned to use VPN while i was in university

I can't remember everything, I believe it was the same as @lefthandedism mentions, but when I saw the picture on Twitter yesterday before it was up on IDB, I immediately thought it would cause a stir. Don't exactly know why but apparently in my head there are automatic negative thoughts associated with that flag even though I'm not informed enough to base that conclusion on something. Might be because of school, might be because of the internet.

[tymyky]

As someone who lives in a country, whcih was under Soviet union dictatorship for 40 years, this is something I will not get over with. Maybe the ideal communist ideology isn't so bad, but the outrocities, which were done in the Soviet union (under Stalin) and my country are not justifiable. We are taught at school, that we can compare communists to the nazis and that even more people were killed in the concentration camps in Russia than in Nazi Germany. Even in our counry we had "working camps" when people starved and had to work till their death.

Even yesteday we had 20 000 (that's a lot for my small country)people protesting against government, because communists are again getting to power. People's opinions are really different on the communists regime and what the flag means, but for me it's a representation of a dictatorhip, which killed millions of innocent people. So in my eyes boys really fu**ed up badly

[knq]

They really didn't censor much, if anyone was still under the impression they might. The differences I noticed are under the spoiler.

The stage set up was different (as has already been shown in a photo here) and they omitted the 'what's in Dan's box' segment, though I asked someone at the show and they speculated it might have been because of the language barrier. Dialogue wise, the only changes I noticed were:

- No joke about the lights being phallic, but that's because there were no lights on the stage.
- In the bar before the voiceover narration about what they don't do, Dan normally makes a joke about how they can't do some things because they're illegal or if not technically illegal then just awkward/messy/not polite to do on a stage. He left that out and replaced it with a line about how there are some things they just can't do, like ride in on an elephant.
- The Horse Prince simulation bit went to Dan instead of Phil this time, which to my knowledge is a first.
- Where he normally says, "Dan and Phil, super best friends and soulmates forever!" this time he just said "Dan and Phil, super best friends!"

What’s the horse prince simulation bit? I only have the general idea that it involves Dan dying in a womens bathroom and Phil making a deal with Satan.

It’s interesting he omitted ‘soulmates’. As they don’t appear to have had much cultural guidance I’m guessing that was a decision Dan made himself, so I’d be interested to know if it returns for the second Moscow show, or for future shows outside of Russia..

[opendoor]

Yeah I'm sure it means different things to different people. It's definitely not universally offensive though.

To me growing up in a labour-voting, gently socialist British household that symbol isn't negative to me. I get wary when people are like 'communism is evil' as a gut reaction because I feel like that's due to McCarthyism in the US.

And if they were ro refuse to pose w/ this particular flag where do they draw the line? I live in Australia now and yeah, someone said this, none of my friends would pose with an Australian flag because there's an association w/ racism against immigrants and Indigenous Australians.

[mysterylovescompany]

the soviet flag is pretty politically charged. imo it's still ... just a flag, and the existence of the pic is not an endorsement on deppy's part. i mean ... look at dan's face. personally i think bringing any flag to a m&g or a show and getting the performers to pose with it is kinda irrelevant and obnoxious at best, disrespectful and insensitive at worst. like what is the point of doing that? to test your idols to see if they support the same cause you do? if i brought a harry potter poster with me to ii (because i like hp) and got a picture with deppy and me holding it up, that would just be random and bizarre. and i'm glad to be australian but am apathetic about the design of our flag (i just don't put much stock in flags in general).

(we're kinda getting offtopic i feel)

[Stakhanov]

Since I find it quite offensive that some people in the fandom are selectively offended when Dan and Phil pose with political symbols they don't like while they cheer on when it happens to be a political symbol they like, i felt a need to parody it.

side note: does the twitter button on this forum still work as described in the faq? I don't see anything of the tweets in the preview.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=881#p61771

Post by jesp » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:00 pm
How do I insert a tweet?

Use the Twitter button from the panel.
You will need to know the link of the tweet you wish to insert. Links can begin with http OR https.
Once you have this, insert it between the twitter tags.
example:

Code: Select all

[Twitter]http://twitter.com/danisnotonfire/statu ... 7796885506[/Twitter]

apperently it doesn't. How do you insert tweets?

[human]

In the light of all of the flag controversy, I think it’s worthwhile remembering that Deppy seem to have made quite a few additional arrangements and compromises just so they could head to Russia to see their fans and put on shows. I feel like it’s easily forgotten how much they wanted to go and make their fans there feel like they’re valued and appreciated.

For me, it’s also clear that there is no ill-intended intent with any actions that may not have been in the best taste; we know these guys are good guys. It’s also very difficult to know how to act when you’ve only got a few days in a completely unfamiliar culture and no time to acclimatise or adjust. This, of course, doesn’t invalidate anyone hurt or upset by the actions of a few. I’m just saying, it’s tough to know how to act or adjust to a city that feels so different - in Amsterdam, and this example is by no means comparative but more of a lighter, amusing take on my point - I couldn’t even work out when to cross the road, there was a clicking noise coming from somewhere on the traffic light and I couldn’t see the green man I usually see in London and must have looked like a right twat looking up at the sky and wandering into the cycle lanes haha. But we all act a bit awkward and unlike ourselves when we aren’t with what we know, so I don’t think Deppy are special.

It was so sweet to see the m&g pics, I’m not usually a fan of browsing them but I just think the guys were so sweet to visit cities which a lot of public figures, bands and musicians might skip over because they would need to make some additional arrangements to ensure the trip is appropriate, and the fans definitely seem to have appreciated their efforts.

I can’t wait for them to have their social media back and hopefully post a backlog of some of their pics, the city looks beautiful

[Stakhanov]

I feel it's always the same when this kind of drama comes up. People are quick to judge and project their own beliefs and opinions on the matter. Often not being burdened by knowing much about the issues they feel offense for.
We literally have Dan and Phil playing with a US flag in a pinof vid. On the same day they have posed with somebody holding an lgbt flag which is also a political symbol (just one we like). Where was the moral outcry then? Why would it be smart of them to use controversial political symbols then?
Oh, but the US flag is different and represents something 'good' ? Well it doesn't in major parts of the world, and likewise the flag of the Soviet union may be treated as 'evil' in US history books but the world is a lot bigger than the US. Do ask all the 'collateral damage' casualties of war in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Jemen how they view the US flag?
In today's Russia the second party (still getting about 10-20 percent of the vote) are the communists. The scandal is one only through foreign eyes. Also, Russia today is an autocratic regime to start with so as someone who is a democrat (meaning a proponent of a democratic state) i think the real controversy is if Dan and Phil should even go to undemocratic regimes and have shows there? Should they pose with any flag, which are all symbols of nationalism and the horrors you can associate with that?
The answer would be a resounding yes, and they should also have the freedom to take pictures in their meet and greets with whatever symbols they feel comfortable with, associate with whatever friends they like (like pewdiepie) and generally disregard the criticism of all the people who are just presenting their opinion as if they have the authority to be moral arbiters on issues which they frankly often don't know much about in any case is heavily influenced by their own societies views and history.

[LtrllySusan]

In the end, I think it's pretty simple:
Someone wanted to be edgy and brought the flag.
They (or at least Dan) recognised it - judging by Dan's almost rolling eyes facial expression
They decided to roll with it in the moment to not cause political drama
They will very likely now take precautions that it won't happen again.

If there's anything we should talk about, then what kind of idiot 'fans' think it's ok to do this.

[Ataraxia25]

i guess (i hope?) the fans thought it was cool and okay because they’re young and don’t know better didn’t see it in a bad way?

[lilabet]

Just a reminder to please donate if you haven't already. Does anyone have an idea of when they will be on social media again? I'm really hoping for a Dan tweet to reach goal!

[missemma]

In the end, I think it's pretty simple:
Someone wanted to be edgy and brought the flag.
They (or at least Dan) recognised it - judging by Dan's almost rolling eyes facial expression
They decided to roll with it in the moment to not cause political drama
They will very likely now take precautions that it won't happen again.

@Stakhanov the twitter function still works. If you’re using mobile then you need to remove everything, and including the last ? For example everything in the red needs to be removed:

twitter.com/lolthisisatest/status/100428881806672727272?s=21