Dan & Phil Part 72: Always a Gaytime

[Stakhanov]

I don't blame the girl who brought the flag at all. As pointed out before, the flag represents different ideas to different people. It can get used as a soviet flag. This still puts it on equal footing with other flags and not in a special category of 'evil flags'. Many flags in this world at this very moment are used by regimes that are comitting or have committed terrible atrocities and what you associate a flag with will depend on where you live and your political ideology.
The Soviet flag also gets used to represent different schools of political thought associated with communism. This can vary from totalitarian strains of communism like Stalinism to the political philosophy of marxism which in itself is not 'evil' ( though marxism often purposely gets thrown together with Soviet Russia, especially by the US political right). Treating anyone who brings a soviet flag as if they are supporting the worst that ideology can offer is no different than treating anyone who brings a [insert country flag here] as a vile offender on the basis of the wrongdoings that country can be associated with. Which is exactly what happens in for example Iranian or North Korean propaganda when they burn US flags and treat it as a symbol of imperialism and war.

More likely though, the woman who brought this flag wasn't trying to make a diehard political statement. It might not be your cup of tea, but Dan and Phil are very much linked to 'internet culture" and memes such as the very popular and persistent "Soviet Russia/ (parodies of the) Communist propaganda" are part of that same internet culture which many of their fans are aware of and enjoy. This is likely also how Dan and Phil approached the situation. I think it's very unlikely they weren't aware of the symbol that is the soviet flag. Dan at least (and Phil i think to a lesser degree) has voiced an interest in politics and are reasonably knowledgeable about history in general. He's voted for Corbyn too and while democratic socialism is a different breed than communism, there are some shared roots. It's very plausable imo they either enjoyed the joke or saw nothing wrong in it. I wouldn't be surprised if Dan even liked some communist-themed memes in the past. There's no shortage of parody accounts and memes in his 'liked' twitter and tumblr history.

Why is it that we must always try to lay blame with others as soon as something rises up that some find controversial? They are adult, smart men yet we always try to find outs in situations where they do something that we don't like? I've seen on multiple occasions now that things get totally blown out of proportion - i'm talking about the wide fandom here. Things are treated as 'scandalous' and Dan and or Phil, but especially the people around them, get a whole lot of flack. I personally find the way drama gets stirred up and people set away as 'trying to hurt their idols/ bigotted / insensitive" much more distasteful than the out of proportion allegations that are being read into the situation.
Anyway just had to get that off my chest because it's one of the aspects about (any) fandom that I dislike the most and sadly if the backlash is big enough, it does affect what Dan and Phil do (they'll censor themselves more and just share less, be more cautious and 'safe' in what they do). That's something I care about.

[Stakhanov]

@Stakhanov the twitter function still works. If you’re using mobile then you need to remove everything, and including the last ? For example everything in the red needs to be removed:

twitter.com/lolthisisatest/status/100428881806672727272?s=21

Hm. No i'm on a laptop, as far as I can see i'm using exactly the same structure: eg one of the tweets i was trying to link was

https://twitter.com/AlekseiStakhano/sta ... 7645496320

so I put that beteen the [Twitter][/Twitter] code you get when you use the TWITTER button

I'm dong exactly that below here but again it's showing nothing in the preview of the post

[srutututu]

Ohhh boyy..... ohh boyy

Person: Well, they shouldn't pose with that flag. I find it insensitive.

Some of you:

In my opinion, it's not wise to flaunt your ignorance here concerning this situation. Yeah, you might not recognise this flag, yeah, you may be from a country that is not good at educating you about this, yeah... you don't associate any negative feelings towards this flag, "it's just a flag" yeah yeah.
"It's just a joke!! Why are you so mad bro? free speech? why are you so sensitive? ? ?"

But you know, for me, this is obviously a sensitive and controversial topic. A lot of people suffered because of this flag, because of those symbols. And some people didn't. Some of you sound like a typical person who would use "lol u triggered?" during a serious conversation. Especially @Stakhanov, whose posts/opinions I often don't agree with. Let's not dismiss other people's feelings about this? What about being considerate?
I'm sorry, but if you're not affected by those symbols, you shouldn't dictate how people should feel, how people should act. You don't get to decide what's a big deal, and what's not. The criticism is valid, D+P are a public figures who will learn and hopefully avoid looking insensitive and ignorant in the future. And I don't advise them to pose with the Soviet flag in Poland.

[human]

Just a reminder to please donate if you haven't already. Does anyone have an idea of when they will be on social media again? I'm really hoping for a Dan tweet to reach goal!

Wow that’s galloped along all of a sudden and I’m so pleased! Hoping Dan retweets it in his birthday, I sure if he will do so before. I really love this about fandoms, the fundraising spirit is just wonderful.

[Stakhanov]

@srutututu First let's put one thing clear here. I do not dictate how people should feel here any more than you do. I read people's opinion on the matter which they are of course free to express. I express my own opinion just as freely. You now have stringed a bunch of opinions together in your reaction too. I sure won't let you define what I say about the matter just as much as you shouldn't let your views be dictated by others. Since we're having this conversation though, I don't see how anyone is being dictated what to do. I would just call this frank conversation, and it's what happens in all societies when opposing views are talked about. If things in the wider fandom happen that strike my interest, I like to come to forum like this to share, speculate, vent ... my view. That's what this thread is all about right, to talk about what is current in the D&P realm? Before I had a chance to catch up on the forum, i saw there was already two pages of discussion about the topic so I don't think i'm the only one expressing a view here. Expressing a view is not equal to dictating a view though, i would hope you understand that because the suggestion that i'm some kind of despot forcing my views here or saying 'lol you triggered' i find, ironically given your objection to the flag, pretty insensitive myself.

Nobody has the monopoly on feeling offended or determining what it sensitive, you know. People don't just say "well they shouldn't post with that flag I find that insensitve'. I've read on this very forum that it was "moronic" that they were being "next level ignorant", and in the fandom at wide -which is what i'm talking about- the girl who brought the flag gets viciously attacked by some. I find that very inconsiderate and insensitive myself, much more than the existence of that photo.

"I'm sorry, but if you're not affected by those symbols, you shouldn't dictate how people should feel, how people should act.

You don't know my or my families history. We were very much affected. More over, i disagree that only people who live(d) under communism can express legitimate view on the matter (if that is what you imply), why would that be? That's not how we treat other issues in society and we can all have an opinion on this.
It's not like only people who are personally affected are expressing criticism either.

"You don't get to decide what's a big deal, and what's not. The criticism is valid, D+P are a public figures who will learn and hopefully avoid looking insensitive and ignorant in the future. ""

Obviously, this is what we disagree on. I don't think the criticism is valid, and don't think that they are being insensitive or ignorant. This is a matter of opinion, not fact.

[autumnhearth]

Here’s something positive about yesterday:

Link if you can’t see the embed:

https://apparently-im-hufflepuff.tumblr ... -and-phils

[srutututu]

"I'm sorry, but if you're not affected by those symbols, you shouldn't dictate how people should feel, how people should act.

You don't know my or my families history. We were very much affected. More over, i disagree that only people who live(d) under communism can express legitimate view on the matter (if that is what you imply), why would that be? That's not how we treat other issues in society and we can all have an opinion on this.
It's not like only people who are personally affected are expressing criticism either.

I wrote "If you're not affected...". You are. I wasn't implying anything about your histoty.
You seem to think my whole post was about you. It wasn't

I am also stating my opinion about the matter, and tl;dl -> be more careful, try to understand why some people are angry. Don't try and focus only on your experiences saying stuff like "well, I'm not finding that insensitive, so people are overreacting".

[Stakhanov]

Here’s something positive about yesterday:

Link if you can’t see the embed:

https://apparently-im-hufflepuff.tumblr ... -and-phils

I can't see the embed or be able to link embed tweets. Strange. Does anybody else have this issue?

That's a nice post. My heart is warmed by all the people in Moscow who for once might have experienced a more lgbt-friendly picture of their country, and I hope some of them got to swapping contact details. It's great to find support, especially when it can at times look like the whole of society is rejecting you! May Russian pride return and return fiercely !

[missemma]

@Stakhanov the twitter function still works. If you’re using mobile then you need to remove everything, and including the last ? For example everything in the red needs to be removed:

twitter.com/lolthisisatest/status/100428881806672727272?s=21

Hm. No i'm on a laptop, as far as I can see i'm using exactly the same structure: eg one of the tweets i was trying to link was

https://twitter.com/AlekseiStakhano/sta ... 7645496320

so I put that beteen the [Twitter][/Twitter] code you get when you use the TWITTER button

I'm dong exactly that below here but again it's showing nothing in the preview of the post

Sorry I’m confused as the preview works for me. Can you please PM me a screenshot of it not working for you?

[LadyLackless]

Just a reminder to please donate if you haven't already. Does anyone have an idea of when they will be on social media again? I'm really hoping for a Dan tweet to reach goal!

Fingers crossed!!! I’m guessing that they will reappear in the next few days (once they’re out of Russia) A Dan rt would send this stratospheric But @lilabet and everyone else should feel proud of what has been accomplished. £~5k is still a lot of money, never mind the goal or what was raised for previous drives

[lilabet]

Just a reminder to please donate if you haven't already. Does anyone have an idea of when they will be on social media again? I'm really hoping for a Dan tweet to reach goal!

Fingers crossed!!! I’m guessing that they will reappear in the next few days (once they’re out of Russia) A Dan rt would send this stratospheric But @lilabet and everyone else should feel proud of what has been accomplished. £~5k is still a lot of money, never mind the goal or what was raised for previous drives

Yeah we're way ahead of where we were on Phils drive without a tweet so fingers crossed.

[goingbackto505]

welp.. as a russian, to provide a different perspective, if you will, I can say that for a lot of russians and for those who live in the post-soviet countries, the USSR flag and its symbolic (the hammer and sickle) are associated with the victory against nazi Germany. you'd be surprised by the fact that during our victory day (may 9th) that flag can be spotted everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Banner for a lot of elders/veterans that was the flag they were fighting for during ww2.

'The photo depicting the victory in the Great Patriotic War has been taken some days after the capture of Berlin. Photographer Yevgeny Khaldei was assigned to travel to Berlin and to photograph the banners raised over buildings, which he had taken with him in advance. In the staged shot soviet soldiers are raising the red flag on Reichstag.'

basically, I personally don't think it's at all reasonable to flat out compare the flag to a swastika or to a nazi flag, to deem Dan and Phil ~problematic and to accuse them of supporting the genocide that happened during the soviet regime. the girl who brought the flag didn't try to make a political statement or to convert Dan and Phil to communism. it was done as a meme. the USSR is no longer a thing and tons of people treat communism/the USSR anthem and even the flag itself as memes or as something complicated/outdated that had lots of problems within itself that we can poke fun at, if that makes sense. I'm definitely not talking about the horrible things Stalin and other communist leaders had done, but rather the ideology of communism itself and all the empty promises that were made during that time. in no way do I want to say that those who're hurt by/have only negative connotations with that flag have no right to feel the way they feel. but to say that the flag is offensive and that's it, nothing else stands behind it, and that Dan and Phil 'have to be held accountable' for posing with it, just seems wrong to me. and lastly, I hope this won't make anyone upset, but Dan (and I'm sure Phil as well) definitely knows and views that flag as a joke/meme, which was basically the point. it wasn't about politics and wasn't meant to symbolize negative things and it sucks that some people see that whole situation like that - a total negative thing or something that needs to be turned into drama. I admit, I personally don't see much point in bringing such (or any) flags to a m&g. it usually just starts controversy.

[alittledizzy]

They really didn't censor much, if anyone was still under the impression they might. The differences I noticed are under the spoiler.

The stage set up was different (as has already been shown in a photo here) and they omitted the 'what's in Dan's box' segment, though I asked someone at the show and they speculated it might have been because of the language barrier. Dialogue wise, the only changes I noticed were:

- No joke about the lights being phallic, but that's because there were no lights on the stage.
- In the bar before the voiceover narration about what they don't do, Dan normally makes a joke about how they can't do some things because they're illegal or if not technically illegal then just awkward/messy/not polite to do on a stage. He left that out and replaced it with a line about how there are some things they just can't do, like ride in on an elephant.
- The Horse Prince simulation bit went to Dan instead of Phil this time, which to my knowledge is a first.
- Where he normally says, "Dan and Phil, super best friends and soulmates forever!" this time he just said "Dan and Phil, super best friends!"

What’s the horse prince simulation bit? I only have the general idea that it involves Dan dying in a womens bathroom and Phil making a deal with Satan.

It’s interesting he omitted ‘soulmates’. As they don’t appear to have had much cultural guidance I’m guessing that was a decision Dan made himself, so I’d be interested to know if it returns for the second Moscow show, or for future shows outside of Russia..

When they're introducing the simulation segment of the show, normally Phil usually loads it and something Horse Prince related shows up (someone who has seen the show can step in with a better description, but there's a neighing noise) and Phil acts embarrassed and panicked like it opened the wrong thing and says, "That's a personal project" or "That's my private simulation" or something along those lines. For the first time in the Russia show Dan said it was his private simulation.

[knq]

Since I find it quite offensive that some people in the fandom are selectively offended when Dan and Phil pose with political symbols they don't like while they cheer on when it happens to be a political symbol they like, i felt a need to parody it.

You could have made the point you wanted to without drawing a false equivalency between the flag of any country or regime and the pride flag.

[alittledizzy]

[jaej]

d+p being silent at the exact time where there ends up being drama just makes me think about when you get a dodgy text you don't want to reply to so you reply like 3 days later with "haha sorry i fell asleep "

[Stakhanov]

Since I find it quite offensive that some people in the fandom are selectively offended when Dan and Phil pose with political symbols they don't like while they cheer on when it happens to be a political symbol they like, i felt a need to parody it.

You could have made the point you wanted to without drawing a false equivalency between the flag of any country or regime and the pride flag.

Both are flags, both are political symbols. Both do draw controversy and are associated with negative things in the eyes of some. So it's a false equivalency how?

Yes, i support very much the message of equality and support i associate with the LGBT flag while the Soviet flag I have a lot more mixed feelings about. Though I basically don't see it as 'evil' compared to the flags of many other (historic) nations.
What I find offensive is the selective moral outcry of some people when symbols are used that they happen to be affected or familiar with, and using that as a reason to attack the girl or assume things about what Dan and Phil should think about it. I am interested in politics and philosophy and I find the view that judging people moronic or unaware whenever they are causing offense or not being sensitive to the plight of a group presupposes a certain interpretation of a symbol. In reality the soviet flag has many meanings as @goingbackto505 also shows. It's a terrible idea and it limits the emancipatory power people have to change or redefine the meaning of symbols (eg by humor) and creates special status between those victims we are aware of and deem worthy of our sensitivity and the many (perhaps less visible or vocal or powerful) groups of victims forgotten by time.

[dancy]

Ah yes, I saw that Sarah (who I talked to at the merch stand and was v nice and helpful) posted some Insta stories that show she's still in the Netherlands, so I'm thinking she might be the one who's keeping everyone's (D&P + the part of the crew who's with them in Russia) electronic devices safe.

I couldn't help but laugh at this. Gosh, no phones, no earring, no Rize backdrop, barely a set and hardly any merch!

[knq]

Ah yes, I saw that Sarah (who I talked to at the merch stand and was v nice and helpful) posted some Insta stories that show she's still in the Netherlands, so I'm thinking she might be the one who's keeping everyone's (D&P + the part of the crew who's with them in Russia) electronic devices safe.

I couldn't help but laugh at this. Gosh, no phones, no earring, no Rize backdrop, barely a set and hardly any merch!

In one of the videos from the Red Square a fan walking up to them (I think) says excitedly “You’re still alive!”

I think we need to work on our catastrophizing guys.

They’ve said before a problem with TATINOF was the huge set they couldn’t easily move between countries, so I’m not too surprised they didn’t bring all of their merch or set to Russia, though that is an especially sad looking goodie bag. I can’t tell from the fandom discourse how big a deal it would have been to Rize management if dnp had been taking photos with the USSR flag in front of their logo, but erring on the side of safety for their sponsorship, it’s probably lucky Rize wasn’t sponsoring this leg of the tour.

Did Dan take out his earring? I hadn’t noticed that.

[Ataraxia25]

do we know why there is so little merch in russia? i saw people talking about that but i don't understand why

[rizzo]

Since I find it quite offensive that some people in the fandom are selectively offended when Dan and Phil pose with political symbols they don't like while they cheer on when it happens to be a political symbol they like, i felt a need to parody it.

You could have made the point you wanted to without drawing a false equivalency between the flag of any country or regime and the pride flag.

Both are flags, both are political symbols. Both do draw controversy and are associated with negative things in the eyes of some. So it's a false equivalency how?

Yes, i support very much the message of equality and support i associate with the LGBT flag while the Soviet flag I have a lot more mixed feelings about (though I basically don't see it as 'evil' compared to the flags of many other (historic) nations.
What I find offensive the selective moral outcry of some people when symbols are used that they happen to be affected or familiar with, and using that as a reason to attack the girl or assume things about what Dan and Phil should think about it. I am interested in politics and philosophy and I find the view that judging people moronic or unaware whenever they are causing offense or not being sensitive to the plight of a certain interpretation of a symbol that has many meanings is a terrible idea and it limits the emancipatory power people have to change or redefine the meaning of symbols (eg by humor) and creates special status between those victims we are aware of and deem worthy of our sensitivity and the many (perhaps less visible or vocal or powerful) groups of victims forgotten by time.

There's a fairly significant difference between a flag that symbolizes equality and respect and a flag that was flown over a country in a time where roughly millions of people were systematically killed. How is that in any way comparable? Just because it causes controversy? Nah. This has nothing to do with personal politics.

Re: The bolded bit. We can go in circles about this, because it appears you're having your own selective moral outcry about people being offended by this flag.

The point is that the flag represents a moment in history people don't want to celebrate. This isn't about the communist symbol. They're different things. And this isn't an internet thing. There are older people who don't want to see that flag. People living today whose relatives were murdered under that flag. Are you going to tell them they're not allowed to be offended by it just because you don't think it's worth being offended over? Frankly, I think it's perfectly reasonable to want Dan and Phil to maybe avoid posing with something so representative of genocide. And I came into this thinking the opposite and having a personal connection to it.

This could all be resolved if Dan and Phil just avoided posing with any symbolism they aren't educated on or are unfamiliar with. it's as simple as that. LGBTQ flag? They probably know plenty and are happy to take a pic. Soviet flag? Not... not so much. Nobody here is denouncing Dan and Phil or assuming they mean anything by this. It's also been noted that the girl did this to cause a bit of controversy (mission accomplished). So, what this comes down to is a suggestion to reconsider how they approach certain props.

My point is it's okay to question, criticize, and even educate your faves. And in this case, I think it's ok that people are a bit disappointed by that particular photo.

[yeetussy]

Look, I thought we all agreed this isn’t really Dan and Phil’s fault. What are they supposed to do in that situation? Jut deny her? They already couldn’t deliver a lot to Russia, I mean look at that goody bag, why not just do the picture to make her day? I don’t promote attacking the girl in the slightest because that’s toxic and disgusting. But I do think she is to blame. She didn’t do it because it represented something good to her family, she did it to confuse deppy and cause controversy. It was translated a few pages prior, and it’s also tagged with the picture in Russian if you want to read and translate it yourself. The other girl also did it for the meme, which I don’t see as as harmful as the girl that did it specifically to create a stir.

In other words, yes this needs criticism, but it is kinda unfair to pin it all of dan and phil. It’s the same with everyone mad at them for Rize. They worked for a long time with younow, why wouldn’t they talk them up on that offer? It’s not like they knew much about Rose beforehand.

All this negative energy everywhere. I’m very, very glad Dan and Phil did this sm detox.

[pararlama]

if this is causing such a shitstorm here on IDB I don't even wanna know what's going on in the twitter/tumblr phandom

[opendoor]

I really hope Dan puts the earring back soon. It looks so good on him, and I live in fear of him "forgetting" his ears are pierced again.

Do you think he took it out because having the right ear pierced is a gay thing, and he's being careful?

Here’s something positive about yesterday:

Link if you can’t see the embed:

https://apparently-im-hufflepuff.tumblr ... -and-phils

Aww

[Loafer]

Imagine in 50 years celebrities visit what used to be North Korea and take pictures with the North Korean flag or like, poster cutouts of kim jong il...

Just like you can’t see a swastika without thinking of the holocoust or a confederate flag without thinking of slavery, so most people can’t see the communist symbol without thinking of all the suffering that occurred under it. I strongly disagree with it being “just a flag”, such symbols have weight in our world, always have and always will. Of course individuals can have unique perceptions on common symbols, but for the most part, religious, political, or national symbols carry weight.

I’ve never been to Russia but when I’ve visited other Eastern European countries it was not uncommon to see hats and souvineers with the communist symbol on them (strangely close to memorials dedicated to people who died under communism). Idgi but I imagine Russia is similar, so maybe after seeing the hammer and sickle or maybe even the same flag frequently it wasn’t as shocking for dan and phil or their team to see a fan with it. They still should have thought better of it- the association with human suffering is very strong for most people.

Responsibility is shared imo between them, their team, and the fan. Ultimately they are the ones accountable for their actions, and I’m always going to cut them slack because I don’t know what’s the situation was like from their pov. But it’s still on them.