Dan & Phil Part 82: now onto the future

[liola]

A bit off topic (but while we’re on it- spinach and black olives are top tier toppings y’all can fight me with your gross ass pineapple)

but a post came on my Instagram explore page that made my eyes roll. Someone’s posting all of Dan's customer service blog answers and tagging him directly which of course started a shit storm for new people who didn’t know about the blog.

The thing is, we all know about it and they are archived, but my god don’t post them somewhere that public and TAG him!?! I know they don’t really check IG as much, but still. I guess we’re just at that stage during the hiatus where people are antsy and digging up old shit. Ugh it just me a “here we go again” feeling (not that it ever really stopped I guess?)

K to bring back a topic
I guess, much like food, it's a matter of tastes and perspective. I think Dan made the customer service blog for a reason and only deleted it because part of the fandom reacted very negatively to it and started calling his replies "defensive" or even "homophobic". I suspect he made a pragmatic choice there, realizing you can't estrange part of your audience if you want to grow and foster it.
But I also think he meant what he said and was only pressured into silence. The customer service blog isn't an isolated fact, he denied phan explicitly all throughout 2012 and well into 2013. They still always present themselves as best friends, I think they just gave up on trying to convince people who clearly didn't want to believe them anyway.
By consequence, I don't find it wrong at all to post his answers as they are still very relevant. I find it a lot more invasive or cringe when people share pictures from private activities, or wait them up at airports, or check listings of real estate agents to find out where they live.

Or maybe he deleted it because he was suffering from un-treated depression, in a high pressure position of quick rise to fame, with his relationship suddenly on the front line to be exploited only a few months after a very private video had been exposed to the internet - which, hm, might be the reason why he denied stuff.

It's not like Dan has ever lied before though, right? It's not like that was around the same time they were even lying about how they met. Somehow I think that should be something to think about, instead of saying his own audience pressured him into silence.

[Amiaw]

Dan also privated/deleted videos last year because of some problematic things in them and that action was completely his decision. Dan’s actions aren’t always motivated by “fan pressure” the dapg hiatus, his internet silence because he’s a real person and most real people grow and change.

[phanfckingtastic]

I love them a lot, but we know dnp lie, omit and twist facts & info of all kinds - TO THIS DAY.
Dan himself said in the mukbang that he doesn't agree with his own self from even months ago, let alone when he was in his late teens, because he's constantly evolving. With that context and the mountains of details we have (including the so-obvious-it's-a-joke fact of renting expensive/luxury apartments on holidays to share with different couples and choosing options with just one bedroom for dnp with a double bed each time), believing they've been together since they met in 2009 is not the irrational option at this point.

I hope Dan is doing well and hopefully working on something cool. I frankly would prefer his content goes in an even more personal direction than political, but I guess in the next couple of months we'll find out.
Missing Phil already, my main problem with no gaming (aside from the lack of dnp bants) is that
his videos are so short I'd love some 15/20 min long vids

(These sporadic Phil ig or twitter updates only work to keep me so! intrigued! about what the rest of the year will bring from them. Secretly wishing their move is to some super secure hidden location that allows them to go the Jimmy route for some deppy house files. Them and their "privacy" obsession, jfc, so selfish )

[autumnhearth]

Or maybe he deleted it because he was suffering from un-treated depression, in a high pressure position of quick rise to fame, with his relationship suddenly on the front line to be exploited only a few months after a very private video had been exposed to the internet - which, hm, might be the reason why he denied stuff.

It's not like Dan has ever lied before though, right? It's not like that was around the same time they were even lying about how they met. Somehow I think that should be something to think about, instead of saying his own audience pressured him into silence.

*claps* THIS! They were at a point when they stopped just being vloggers sharing their days with a small community of other vloggers (many of whom were queer themselves) to actively trying to peruse a viable career and market themselves. Being open about Dan being a fan who started trying to get Phil’s attention on social media then hopping on a train to spend a weekend at Phil’s parents house while they were away wasn’t the narrative they wanted to present. Sure there were some things he said on the blog that still ring true and have shown up as themes in II, but a lot of it was the lashing out of a scared young man and as much as some answers make my stomach churn, I do really feel for him.

Kinda related I just stumbled on this old Phil VYou where he was asked what his dream job would be. I think the first two are still totally viable. Though as much as I would love to see him make films, I think he’s going (well really has gone already) more in the direction of a presenter/host.



Oh and mashed potatoes, kale and smoked sausage sound amazing, though perhaps not from Dominos. Is it really much better over there? It seems every six months we give it another chance and it always disappoints. At this point though in my life I’m not happy with any chain pizza.

[alittledizzy]

[rizzo]

"our"

[knq]

*insert 'is this #content?' meme here*

[Ablissa]

Another picture that doesn't show us much at all. I hope their move is going well

[glitterintheair]

In 2019 we've seen that balcony more than Dan's face.

Another picture that doesn't show us much at all. I hope their move is going well

Cheers.

[somethingsketchy]

I've just been catching up on the last four pages of discussion, and all the food talk reminded me of this blue cheese and liquorice ice cream that was launched in Finland last summer. I visibly wince every time I see it in a store because I'm firmly of the opinion that it shouldn't exist.

To stay on topic:

[Ablissa]

I've just been catching up on the last four pages of discussion, and all the food talk reminded me of this blue cheese and liquorice ice cream that was launched in Finland last summer. I visibly wince every time I see it in a store because I'm firmly of the opinion that it shouldn't exist.

To stay on topic:

Excuse me... BLUE CHEESE AND LIQUORICE? ICE CREAM?
I'm... at a loss for words. Really.

To stay on topic... When do you all think we'll get a new video? I guess not until late next week, right? Phil shows no indication of filming, and I've lost hope for Dan until the anniversary of TTLMT.

[autumnhearth]

I've just been catching up on the last four pages of discussion, and all the food talk reminded me of this blue cheese and liquorice ice cream that was launched in Finland last summer. I visibly wince every time I see it in a store because I'm firmly of the opinion that it shouldn't exist.

To stay on topic:

Excuse me... BLUE CHEESE AND LIQUORICE? ICE CREAM?
I'm... at a loss for words. Really.

To stay on topic... When do you all think we'll get a new video? I guess not until late next week, right? Phil shows no indication of filming, and I've lost hope for Dan until the anniversary of TTLMT.

Ah something that just might unite us all.

Honestly who knows. I’m not expecting diddly tomorrow.

[glitterintheair]

Phil liked this reply and I'm cackling:

My main guess atm is: Phil's vid next week and Dan's vid on the 3rd, which is the week after that, so it would make sense.
I hope they (especially Dan lbr) prove me wrong, though; I don't even care about dinof, I just miss him and Them.

[Birdie]

I mean balls of meat on pizza don’t sound out of place, it just depends how big they are, do they have their own sauce?

No, it's mostly just Kjøttboller, cheese and tomato sauce but something about the consistency of the dough, meat and cheese together is really offputting for me. Also I didn't know you could buy brunost outside of Scandinavia, omg. I'm in Germany atm and I've been looking for it all over and they don't have it anywhere, I don't want this tasteless German cheese.

But I also think he meant what he said and was only pressured into silence. The customer service blog isn't an isolated fact, he denied phan explicitly all throughout 2012 and well into 2013. They still always present themselves as best friends, I think they just gave up on trying to convince people who clearly didn't want to believe them anyway.

Listen, I'm sure he meant what he said - In 2012, when he was 20. But people grow up and change and Dan has made it pretty clear that he doesn't stand for what his 20-year-old-self did and said. The most logical explanation is that Dan deleted those answers because he realised how homophobic they were. I also think it's kinda wild to assume he would still believe the same things at 27 he believed at 20 but okay, my guy.

The best friends thing: Look, I'm one of the last "antis" on this forum but even I realise that them being together is an actual, real, probable possibility. Back in 2012 they both tried to appear as straight as possible and it made sense but it's 2019 and Dan is out and I'd say Phil is also not hiding away his attraction to men anymore. But they're still careful and privacy is still a thing that's important so them not pushing the best friends story as much anymore is probably due to them not being as afraid of being perceived as queer as they used to be. And coming out as a queer couple would change their whole career and lives so I get that they won't do it, especially at a time like this where they seem to not even be sure what they want to do with their careers and channels.

As I said, I'm still a bit of an anti (or agnostic more like, idc) but the reason sure ain't this "just best friends, you guys!" story because there's a whole lot of context here that's important and one big factor is how much they value their privacy and another is the very real threat of being seen differently by their audience if they made it official.

Or maybe he deleted it because he was suffering from un-treated depression, in a high pressure position of quick rise to fame, with his relationship suddenly on the front line to be exploited only a few months after a very private video had been exposed to the internet - which, hm, might be the reason why he denied stuff.

Yeah, exactly, well put.

[knq]

Mentioning Dan's previously untreated depression reminds me of what he said in his Daniel and Depression video about medication. My (perhaps very American?) understanding of mental illness differs from Dan's on the topic of medication, which he says in his video isn't meant to be permanent and is just there to keep you stable while you "work on the rest of your life" so that you can eventually stop.

I wonder if he still believes that after he seems to have had a fair amount of depressive episodes in the last year. My experience with mental health professionals in the US has definitely been more along the lines of "medication works best in combination with therapy" but not that after a certain amount of therapy you will be able to stop taking medication.

Is Dan's view more representative of mental health treatment in the UK? I know the US is one of the only countries where pharmaceutical companies are allowed the power to advertise directly to consumers, so I'm under the impression that my beliefs are probably positively biased towards big pharma and what makes them money. But acknowledging that bias, the idea of not needing medication after you've been stable for awhile sounds completely illogical to me.

[FlegmaticSimon]

You're an absolute mad lad (or chick, or formless blob, or whatever you want to be) but yea that does sound nice actually. The quality of the pizza really is in the crispness of the crust imo. Have your tried using a base of sour cream and maybe adding some buffalo mozzarella? It's simple, but delicious.

The pizza mukbang was the best video of the year and the only one where I felt they were doing something new. But I agree that the pizza looked horrible. Greasy, with the typical carboard-like doughy crust and even partly underbaked/cold?? It represented everything that's wrong with chain pizza but that's kinda what you would expect to become a cherished tradition by two delivery food loving, homely and tired rats that are looking for a quick food fix with minimum social interaction with outsiders. FFs they argue about who 'must' open the door and face The Other. They're to relatable.

We don't really have sour cream over here, but thanks for the suggestion! I agree that the crust is important. It plays a large role, but it's often overlooked.

Yes, that video was great. I wasn't there when it came out, but I watched it in December and loved it. I think it was very genuine. It felt like I was eating with them because it was so personal. I really enjoyed this glimpse into their everyday life, the way they opened up about themselves… I would love another one. I hope they make a similar one this year.
Actually, it would be interesting if we got one like this now. We could hear them talk about their plans for this year. I think it would be a great way to inform the fans.

[SpikyLeaf]

Phil liked this reply and I'm cackling:

My main guess atm is: Phil's vid next week and Dan's vid on the 3rd, which is the week after that, so it would make sense.
I hope they (especially Dan lbr) prove me wrong, though; I don't even care about dinof, I just miss him and Them.

Haha, I saw that too!

And tbh I think Dan's next vid could even be after the 3rd but probably before April. Or at least mid April. Although, I feel like I'm saying that because I don't want to get my hopes up for Dan posting on the 3rd.

[likeinlatin]

Mentioning Dan's previously untreated depression reminds me of what he said in his Daniel and Depression video about medication. My (perhaps very American?) understanding of mental illness differs from Dan's on the topic of medication, which he says in his video isn't meant to be permanent and is just there to keep you stable while you "work on the rest of your life" so that you can eventually stop.

I wonder if he still believes that after he seems to have had a fair amount of depressive episodes in the last year. My experience with mental health professionals in the US has definitely been more along the lines of "medication works best in combination with therapy" but not that after a certain amount of therapy you will be able to stop taking medication.

Is Dan's view more representative of mental health treatment in the UK? I know the US is one of the only countries where pharmaceutical companies are allowed the power to advertise directly to consumers, so I'm under the impression that my beliefs are probably positively biased towards big pharma and what makes them money. But acknowledging that bias, the idea of not needing medication after you've been stable for awhile sounds completely illogical to me.

(Hi everyone! Been lurking for a while and figured I should post something at some point, ha. )

I know what you mean! Ever since he said that in the video I was just a bit confused because that is so very much not the orthodoxy that is espoused in the US (though I live in continental Europe now and the mindset seems to be the same as when I lived in the US, so maybe it's country by country). I've been on anti-depressants since adolescence and it while I've spoken to my various therapists and psychiatrists about potentially going off them at various points, it was never seen as an 'end-goal' and not something I should be too concerned about. The oft-used comparison is that "you wouldn't tell a diabetic to stop taking insulin, would you?" which makes sense to me in some ways but is a bit different I think.

That said, depression is a disease and I don't think that the end goal being to stop taking medicine that helps you live your life is a good way of looking at it. It makes me wonder if he really didn't like the way he felt on the medicine (or some other side effect)? Depending on the kind it can be a bit numbing emotionally and some people don't like that. I agree with you though, if I could avoid having (quite as many) depressive episodes by doing something as simple as taking medication, I don't really understand why he doesn't consider it (maybe a different one if my baseless thoughts are in any way correct).

[autumnhearth]

Well according to one Howell we’re all just suffering needlessly and all we need to do is reset our brains through meditation, sleep, exercise, plant eating and positive thinking and then boom magic will happen and bam we can change the world. And of course if he can do it anyone can.

But if you want to see him pacing his family’s backyard, by all means check it out. Spoiler there’s a palm tree. Yeah I’m salty. I know those are all helpful tips, but the way it’s presented... whatever I’m not his target audience and I need to stop clicking when YouTube recommends me his videos (I’m not subscribed but I get a pop up alert every time.) Good for him living life to its fullest.

Yeah the stopping or staying on medication seems to vary. The practice I go to supports both depending on the person. I think I heard that Dan didn’t like not experience the full range of emotions while being on medication, like experiencing normal healthy sadness like crying from a film or music. I know it was a concern of his before he started medication, I think it was stated in I Care Too Much and liveshows around that time.

[BuffyFiona]

Hi, just dropping in to add my two cents really quickly from the clinical side as my job is related to antidepressant habits! Basically, based on my education and experience in the field, there is ongoing debate as to whether being medication free should be the end goal of psychiatric treatment. It is really a very specific answer for each individual and their prescribing provider, based on many many factors such as symptom severity, treatment history and resistance, side effect severity, frequency of episodes in the past, lifestyle, etc. etc., and also different people have different goals for their own mental health. Most of the time a clinician's goal in treatment maintenance is to prevent or lessen the severity of relapses and maintain gains, and sometimes antidepressants aren't really that useful in doing that, but then sometimes they really are! And also sometimes antidepressants all around are so awful they're counterproductive, but then some people can take them without a single side effect.

Anyway, I've definitely seen Dan's view on how he wanted his treatment to go reflected in many cases under various (American) psychiatrists I've worked with/been taught by. Medication as an acute intervention used to help reduce debilitating symptoms enough to make an intensive course of structured psychotherapy (like a CBT) doable and more effective, followed by tapering off the meds once their symptoms are reduced, and a transition into less frequent maintenance therapy to manage symptoms, provide support, and then re-evaluate in the case of relapse. But different doctors prefer different methods, even within the same practice and school of thought (and there are MANY), they love to argue about it, and the research is not at all decisive on what courses of treatment are most effective (imo). Also tbc I'm not a medical doctor! I just work in mental healthcare research and am currently working on an antidepressant study, so after getting off work I saw this being discussed and so felt like I had to jump in... to say that no one knows anything and everyone is different, very groundbreaking stuff!

[firsttimeposter]

I don’t really know which video to perceive as dans last one, cause most people are saying TTLMT, but I think dan might come back at the anniversary of GTPWTW, or perhaps even his actual last video. just so he can actually say “I didn’t post anything for a whole year” if that’s what he’s going for. but who tf knows, I really hope he posts asap though, so let’s hope dan thinks his last true video was TTLMT

[Catallena]

Yeah when I was put on anti depressants, it was definitely not supposed to be a permanent thing. They were supposed to make my life easier for 2 years at most while I underwent therapy for dysthymia, but also for a crippling anxiety disorder which got re-diagnosed into PTSD at the time (I got two more diagnoses years after that). The goal was to have therapy replace the effect of the prozac, and then to have me go on without either. And I think that's a pretty common way of dealing with it here?

I did end up taking them a year longer. My treatment ended before my two years on the stuff were up (I was 'ready' apparently) which meant that I also no longer saw the psychiatrist who prescribed me the meds. Officially my family doctor was supposed to keep an eye on it, but since I could now just pick up another month at my pharmacy without the need for a new prescription I never made another appointment and just kept on taking it. It didn't make feel much better actually, but that just made my fear of how much worse it could be if I stopped worse. I finally quit when I got bad at taking them consistently and the side effects became too much to deal with. Not being able to eat even a stale piece of bread without getting heartburn wasn't doing wonders for my mental health either.

[rikonee]

While I do not have enough knowledge on mental health to join the discussion, I've been enjoying reading the thread and finding out more about things. It's a fuel for the mind.

Also isn't it intriguing that our knowledge about things differ based on where we were raised and lived? I actually don't know anti depressants exist or that there are things you can take to help you with your mental health until I became a teenager who surfs the internet a lot and read posts of people in other countries. In the place where I'm from, I have never hear it mentioned once. A lot of people (at least the ones I know) think the solution is just to go to the therapists.

I don't know if people just don't take it much here or maybe people just choose not to talk about it if they take it. It's just a new concept to me because no one I know personally ever use it (or even know about it) and the media with local public figures never talk about it either.

[Stakhanov]

(wow I thought i posted this 2 hours ago but it somehow didn't luckily I copied the text and it was still stored on the clipboard)
@waveydnp What about Dan's replies is homophobic specifically? I've just reread them, and at worst I can see one joke where he parodies a gay accent? Which I don't find offensive at all. There is a difference to Dan making a joke (even if it the humor is stereotypical) and being homophobic. If you think those are equal, I think you trivialize the term to the point it means nothing. I would find that pretty disheartening as a bi person, as there are plenty of actual homophobes I would like to use the word for. So I do put the term in quotation marks.
Funnily enough, one of his replies on the blog makes clear to me he's an ally (as he has been since the very beginning I've known him):

kathrynjeanp asked:
I know you don’t particularly like when fans talk about the whole “Phan” thing, but I really was wondering whether you are supportive of the LGBT community. Being a huge fan of yours, I couldn’t believe some of the things I was hearing about you. So i really did want to know, are you an LGBT supporter? Cause fans who are girls who like girls, or boys who like boys, like to know if their inspiration supports who they are.

danisnotonfire:
well i’m not sure i even want to know what utter rubbish you’ve heard about me. haha. but of course i am! a lot! like any intelligent human i think everyone should have the same rights :]

@liola @Amiaw @Katka These are possibilities, but none of us know why Dan deleted his customer service blog. Years later, some people were still talking about how 2012 was an awful year so I hope we agree at least on the fact that there was a lot of backlash to his replies. What ultimately drove him we clearly have different opinions on. It's not because he has changed and 'grown' (however you interpret that) and would probably (well that's my guess) choose different words if he were to reply now, It still doesn't mean that the message he sent about them being platonic friends would change.

@Matcha_Ramune That is such a great idea!. Wish i could pitch it to phil . A new mukbang works great as a personal, relaxed setting to talk about 2019 and I feel like it would take away a lot of anxiety. Even if the message basically was 'we don't have an idea of what we're going to do yet' But I think they fear that every half word will be analyzed, and misunderstood, and new expectations will be formed. I think that's at least one of the things that stops them from talking about the future, but I hope to be wrong and god damn i miss them

[knq]

no one knows anything and everyone is different, very groundbreaking stuff!

Truer words have never been spoken!

I didn’t realize Adrian put out a video at the same time I decided to bring up Daniel and Depression. Weird coincidence, sorry. I do really love hearing others IDBers experiences though.

Dan was very careful, and successful imo, about keeping his video specific to him and his experiences, and it’s just the part about medication that sticks out as something personal stated as factual, which makes me think Dan thought it was fact when he made the video. Which for some people I believe it is, just not for me or the people I know and not really in the philosophies of doctors I’ve had, though that could be because I’ve never expressed interest in going off medication.

I figured Dan’s negative experience with medication withdrawal was a big factor in his no longer wanting to be on medication, as it can be scary to feel that out of control and suddenly stopping a drug that’s making you feel numb may make you realize how much you actually miss not feeling numb, but now it occurs to me that it’s just as likely Dan was always on a set schedule to stop taking medication after some intervention and that’s why he talked about it that way in his video.