Dan & Phil Part 82: now onto the future

[liola]

It's been a while since I've read some of those, but yeah. I understand the context of the situation for Dan, I understand the place he was coming from while I still don't condone his microaggressions. But his lashed out intent was to make people feel ridiculous for thinking two men could be in a relationship, and that's damaging and homophobic.

And that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post. People who strongly believe/want to believe that they are dating seem to read those old quotes in a totally different way than I do for example. None of the quotes posted above contain homophobia. He's not mocking the idea of just 2 random men being together. He just doesn't like the idea of him and Phil being together, which is personal preference and not homophobia.

I prefaced with understanding the context as a means of saying this is why I am not holding 2012 Dan against 2019 Dan, but my belief that they're dating does not change the fact that implying that thinking two men are together is wrong/relating that to creepy/weird/insane is the issue.

Yes, I agree, that would be an issue, if he actually had said that. But he didn't. He found it creepy that people kept on shipping him and Phil, trying to prove that they are in a relationship, even though he said many times that they were just platonic friends. This isn't about homosexuality at all. It's about the fact that random people on the internet wanted to believe that he is dating someone he wasn't. It would have been the same if one of them was a girl, except no one would have seen any moral issues with them denying phan then.

But people HAVE insinuated he was dating girls. There was a whole side of his own fans that shipped him with catrific and to this day there's still people who for some reason think they have dated/there were romantic feelings involved. When that pic of him and Bryony in the background was posted people asking him if it was his girlfriend and he replied to them in a very gentle way.

He never lashed out to people when it was insinuated that he was dating his female friends, sorry to contradict you.

[Stakhanov]

It's been a while since I've read some of those, but yeah. I understand the context of the situation for Dan, I understand the place he was coming from while I still don't condone his microaggressions. But his lashed out intent was to make people feel ridiculous for thinking two men could be in a relationship, and that's damaging and homophobic.

And that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post. People who strongly believe/want to believe that they are dating seem to read those old quotes in a totally different way than I do for example. None of the quotes posted above contain homophobia. He's not mocking the idea of just 2 random men being together. He just doesn't like the idea of him and Phil being together, which is personal preference and not homophobia.

Exactly. I had to change devices so had to cut my point short but just as it is extremely hard for @alittledizzy to comprehend why these posts aren't homophobic it is just as hard for me to see how someone can read this void of context and see this as Dan homophobically mocking the idea of two men being together? This is so clearly focused not on the idea of "a man being with a man" but on "Dan being with Phil", a person he's got a deep personal relationship with that by his own words is platonic. Wouldn't you be angry if people kept assuming you were with a person? Or denied you were with a person? Regardless of what you say about it?
His words aren't polite, but neither is the position of people who reject Dan and Phil's own proclaimed truth as lies, making a whole lot of assumptions about their life which they can't possibly know for sure and going even further by invoking homophobia and gaslighting. That sure is quite an oppressive set of claims to counter, in the case they aren't together.

Which is why I think they largely gave up fighting the perceptions of people. But that is just an intuition, we won't soon get that kind of insight into their thinking. I just want to cool the rhetoric a bit, because we're now in the odd position that them denying the relationship, as they've done consistently, is denounced as possible gaslighting and homophobia.

[alittledizzy]

Exactly. I had to change devices so had to cut my point short but just as it is extremely hard for @alittledizzy to comprehend why these posts aren't homophobic it is just as hard for me to see how someone can read this void of context and see this as Dan homophobically mocking the idea of two men being together?

It's also hard for me to understand why you believe you get to be the authority that defines what is homophobic to other people, so we're definitely at an impasse. (And, just to get out ahead of this remark, I'm not at any point saying you personally need to find it homophobic. If you aren't offended, that's fine. But other people aren't wrong just because they don't share your casual perspective and that's what I'm defending against.)

Since it got buried at the bottom of the last page, I'm just going to include my last response here that clarifies why I am not talking about Dan's responses to him being specifically with Phil: Things like "secretly gay" "bumming my friend" "wrong and creepy" "'gays' lol." and adding "haha" to the end of the question that just directly asked if he was gay - all phrases that specifically mention queerness or queer acts in the context of demeaning the relationship that people were asking him about. If he really wanted to make it just about saying he and Phil weren't together he could have very, very, very easily responded to the same question using respectful phrasing or keeping his disrespect limited to saying they weren't together and not linking the animosity toward sexuality as well.

[Stakhanov]

It's been a while since I've read some of those, but yeah. I understand the context of the situation for Dan, I understand the place he was coming from while I still don't condone his microaggressions. But his lashed out intent was to make people feel ridiculous for thinking two men could be in a relationship, and that's damaging and homophobic.

And that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post. People who strongly believe/want to believe that they are dating seem to read those old quotes in a totally different way than I do for example. None of the quotes posted above contain homophobia. He's not mocking the idea of just 2 random men being together. He just doesn't like the idea of him and Phil being together, which is personal preference and not homophobia.

I prefaced with understanding the context as a means of saying this is why I am not holding 2012 Dan against 2019 Dan, but my belief that they're dating does not change the fact that implying that thinking two men are together is wrong/relating that to creepy/weird/insane is the issue.

Yes, I agree, that would be an issue, if he actually had said that. But he didn't. He found it creepy that people kept on shipping him and Phil, trying to prove that they are in a relationship, even though he said many times that they were just platonic friends. This isn't about homosexuality at all. It's about the fact that random people on the internet wanted to believe that he is dating someone he wasn't. It would have been the same if one of them was a girl, except no one would have seen any moral issues with them denying phan then.

But people HAVE insinuated he was dating girls. There was a whole side of his own fans that shipped him with catrific and to this day there's still people who for some reason think they have dated/there were romantic feelings involved. When that pic of him and Bryony in the background was posted people asking him if it was his girlfriend and he replied to them in a very gentle way.

He never lashed out to people when it was insinuated that he was dating his female friends, sorry to contradict you.

That's true but it was in now way as intense and long-lasting as the ship between him and Phil. Some rare cases aside, phan has always been the defining ship, the question that keeps coming back in youtube comments and liveshows. Dan's blog didn't appear in a vacuum, part of the audience was (and is) convinced (I'd say consumed) by the idea of it being true. Hence they don't believe Dan and Phil's denials. Hence why people literally say they find their presumed relationship the most captivating reason to stay engaged.
I feel like perfection is being required of Dan while no critical reflection is being done on the situation that might have provoked his crass wording.

[Nevermind]

It's been a while since I've read some of those, but yeah. I understand the context of the situation for Dan, I understand the place he was coming from while I still don't condone his microaggressions. But his lashed out intent was to make people feel ridiculous for thinking two men could be in a relationship, and that's damaging and homophobic.

And that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post. People who strongly believe/want to believe that they are dating seem to read those old quotes in a totally different way than I do for example. None of the quotes posted above contain homophobia. He's not mocking the idea of just 2 random men being together. He just doesn't like the idea of him and Phil being together, which is personal preference and not homophobia.

I prefaced with understanding the context as a means of saying this is why I am not holding 2012 Dan against 2019 Dan, but my belief that they're dating does not change the fact that implying that thinking two men are together is wrong/relating that to creepy/weird/insane is the issue.

Yes, I agree, that would be an issue, if he actually had said that. But he didn't. He found it creepy that people kept on shipping him and Phil, trying to prove that they are in a relationship, even though he said many times that they were just platonic friends. This isn't about homosexuality at all. It's about the fact that random people on the internet wanted to believe that he is dating someone he wasn't. It would have been the same if one of them was a girl, except no one would have seen any moral issues with them denying phan then.

But people HAVE insinuated he was dating girls. There was a whole side of his own fans that shipped him with catrific and to this day there's still people who for some reason think they have dated/there were romantic feelings involved. When that pic of him and Bryony in the background was posted people asking him if it was his girlfriend and he replied to them in a very gentle way.

He never lashed out to people when it was insinuated that he was dating his female friends, sorry to contradict you.

Ok, but it's not like hundred of thousands of people shipped him and Cat. I'm pretty sure he would have lashed out sooner or later if this ship would have gotten as big as phan. It's not like he got mad about phan shippers from the start. He just got more and more frustrated over time, because people wouldn't take what he said seriously and didn't stop.

[Nevermind]

Exactly. I had to change devices so had to cut my point short but just as it is extremely hard for @alittledizzy to comprehend why these posts aren't homophobic it is just as hard for me to see how someone can read this void of context and see this as Dan homophobically mocking the idea of two men being together?

It's also hard for me to understand why you believe you get to be the authority that defines what is homophobic to other people, so we're definitely at an impasse. (And, just to get out ahead of this remark, I'm not at any point saying you personally need to find it homophobic. If you aren't offended, that's fine. But other people aren't wrong just because they don't share your casual perspective and that's what I'm defending against.)

Since it got buried at the bottom of the last page, I'm just going to include my last response here that clarifies why I am not talking about Dan's responses to him being specifically with Phil: Things like "secretly gay" "bumming my friend" "wrong and creepy" "'gays' lol." and adding "haha" to the end of the question that just directly asked if he was gay - all phrases that specifically mention queerness or queer acts in the context of demeaning the relationship that people were asking him about. If he really wanted to make it just about saying he and Phil weren't together he could have very, very, very easily responded to the same question using respectful phrasing or keeping his disrespect limited to saying they weren't together and not linking the animosity toward sexuality as well.

Insensitive, rude and impolite is what I would call his responses. A naive guy in his early twenties who had no idea how to handle this sudden outburst of crazy shippers. But still nothing homophobic in my opinion. But yea, I guess we will never be on the same page about this.

[liola]

@Stakhanov and @Nevermind I'm gonna reply to both of you here: you're looking at the situation with the numbers he has NOW.
Now people don't go about danrific with the same numbers because well, maybe because they barely interact anymore.
But back in the day, considering how smaller their audience was compared to now, and how many interactions there were between Dan and Phil and Cat, it wasn't the exact same but it was pretty divided. People wrote fics, people commented danrific vs phan under their collabs, people made edits and up until a couple of years ago people tagged Dan in edits with him and Cat.

You don't get to pick and choose my friends.

[Ablissa]

Wow, I'm not sure why I'm doing this to myself and even reading this whole discussion, but I did so I might as well reply.

@Stakhanov and @Nevermind I feel like you are missing the point. If you don't think his remarks were homophobic, more power to you, but that doesn't make your opinion the only right one. I would wager that the majority of us here would say that Dan used homophobic language. You're dismissing a real issue (homophobia) as people being upset about their ship not being 'real'. Are you sure this is what you want to come off as?

Yes, he lashed out at the shippers and that's why he said those things, but no one is questioning that. No one is saying that the fans weren't 'at fault'. What everyone is trying to tell you is that for most people, the language he used was homophobic.
I don't believe any of us here are trying to condemn Dan of right now. It was a period of time when he was under a lot of stress, and he definitely grew up and hasn't spoken like this in several years. But that doesn't erase history and does not justify the way he spoke back then. We know why he did it, but that doesn't make it okay.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - stop dismissing something serious by blaming it on the 'crazed shippers' interpreting it 'the wrong way'. Him denying phan has NOTHING to do with the questionable wording he used to do it.

You don't get to choose what offends other people. You don't get to choose what hurts other people.

[Stakhanov]

Exactly. I had to change devices so had to cut my point short but just as it is extremely hard for @alittledizzy to comprehend why these posts aren't homophobic it is just as hard for me to see how someone can read this void of context and see this as Dan homophobically mocking the idea of two men being together?

It's also hard for me to understand why you believe you get to be the authority that defines what is homophobic to other people, so we're definitely at an impasse. (And, just to get out ahead of this remark, I'm not at any point saying you personally need to find it homophobic. If you aren't offended, that's fine. But other people aren't wrong just because they don't share your casual perspective and that's what I'm defending against.)

Since it got buried at the bottom of the last page, I'm just going to include my last response here that clarifies why I am not talking about Dan's responses to him being specifically with Phil: Things like "secretly gay" "bumming my friend" "wrong and creepy" "'gays' lol." and adding "haha" to the end of the question that just directly asked if he was gay - all phrases that specifically mention queerness or queer acts in the context of demeaning the relationship that people were asking him about. If he really wanted to make it just about saying he and Phil weren't together he could have very, very, very easily responded to the same question using respectful phrasing or keeping his disrespect limited to saying they weren't together and not linking the animosity toward sexuality as well.

I don't say I'm the authority that defines what is homophobic, nobody is that authority and that's why I say in my response to @autumnhearth that I agree with her. You can view his comments as subjectively homophobic, nobody can stop you from doing that. All i can do is point at the definition of homophobia and say why I think it's completely not applicable in this specific case and quite a hefty accusation if you don't want to trivialize homophobia. We are at an impasse there.

I think that the interpretation you make of things like "secretly gay" "bumming my friend", "creepy" being homophobic is incorrect. You say: "all phrases that specifically mention queerness or queer acts in the context of demeaning the relationship that people were asking him about". My first issue i take with that is that this isn't demeaning male-male relationships in general. These posts are made to reject a specific relationship between him and Phil, not all gay relationships in a general sense. It reflects his subjective feeling on having a romantic relationship with his platonic best friend, the thought of which he might just find really distasteful. He's allowed to feel however he wants about a concrete relationship other people put him after he has denied that relationship for years yet people persist in asking him about it.

[tigertatze]

It's times like these I'm glad for the "add foe" button

[obsessivelymoody]

You're absolutely allowed to interpret things the way you want to but use of certain terms connote certain things, regardless of the context of who they are used toward. The matter of who they're about doesn't negate the semiotics of the way the terms are being used, and interpreted by various people, including the person who first used them intention.

Anywayyyy I wonder if we're going to get a tweet or an insta story from one of them today (by one of them I mean Phil lol).

[Stakhanov]

@Stakhanov and @Nevermind I'm gonna reply to both of you here: you're looking at the situation with the numbers he has NOW.
Now people don't go about danrific with the same numbers because well, maybe because they barely interact anymore.
But back in the day, considering how smaller their audience was compared to now, and how many interactions there were between Dan and Phil and Cat, it wasn't the exact same but it was pretty divided. People wrote fics, people commented danrific vs phan under their collabs, people made edits and up until a couple of years ago people tagged Dan in edits with him and Cat.

You don't get to pick and choose my friends.

From the very earliest days they talked on skype and tweeted and dailyboothed etc, there have been Phan comments. I don't find the danrific or phimmy ship at all comparable with how phan has influenced them and the tone of the fandom at large. I'm not looking at the situation and numbers now, I'm talking about the whole of interactions within the fandom at large. The actual irl relationship between them isn't the same either, or the effort they had previously put in clarifying their own position. So if your really think danrific and phan were equivalent at the the time of the writing of the blog (let alone now), you are free to pick and choose your opinion but I'm not convinced. They are not equivalent.

Wow, I'm not sure why I'm doing this to myself and even reading this whole discussion, but I did so I might as well reply.

@Stakhanov and @Nevermind I feel like you are missing the point. If you don't think his remarks were homophobic, more power to you, but that doesn't make your opinion the only right one. I would wager that the majority of us here would say that Dan used homophobic language. You're dismissing a real issue (homophobia) as people being upset about their ship not being 'real'. Are you sure this is what you want to come off as?

Yes, he lashed out at the shippers and that's why he said those things, but no one is questioning that. No one is saying that the fans weren't 'at fault'. What everyone is trying to tell you is that for most people, the language he used was homophobic.
I don't believe any of us here are trying to condemn Dan of right now. It was a period of time when he was under a lot of stress, and he definitely grew up and hasn't spoken like this in several years. But that doesn't erase history and does not justify the way he spoke back then. We know why he did it, but that doesn't make it okay.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - stop dismissing something serious by blaming it on the 'crazed shippers' interpreting it 'the wrong way'. Him denying phan has NOTHING to do with the questionable wording he used to do it.

You don't get to choose what offends other people. You don't get to choose what hurts other people.

I feel like I have answered all of these points before, and I don't know why you are doing this to yourself but it must be that you want to because nobody is forcing you to reply.
I'll reply out of politeness but I'd ask you to reread my answers because the bolded parts are in contradiction with stuff i typed in previous posts or never claimed. And I have to go soonish. I can't properly reply to everyone on the forum and i'm well aware this opinion will be in the minority here.

->Never claimed that and have painstakingly made that point multiple times now. My opinion is but my opinion. Your opinion is but your opinion. Majority opinion is but majority opinion. All i can do I explain my opinion, and gives reasons why I think accusing Dan of homophobia is misguided.
-> I explicitly said homophobia is a real issue in society. One I experience and suffer from myself. Not that being part of a minority group makes you the only legitimate voice when talking about a concept. However, as defined and understood in broader society, I don't think Dan remarks qualify as homophobic especially taking into account context which one should always do imo.
-> I have already said that people can find it subjectively homophobic or not and that at most you can claim that most people find a certain joke or phrase homophobic. In this case I would debate that claim - at least when you consider opinions outside this forum and fandom which is a bubble in itself.
-> Again I'm not dismissing anything serious. I simply don't think his posts constitute something serious as homophobia.
-> I have talked at length about offense and hurt and people's right to feel however they feel. And how subjective feelings of them are different from labeling things people do as homophobic.

Have a good day and if you find the discussion unbearably stressful, I can only suggest you skip it. I sure plan on doing the same, this is just a difference of opinion after all.

[autumnhearth]

It's been a while since I've read some of those, but yeah. I understand the context of the situation for Dan, I understand the place he was coming from while I still don't condone his microaggressions. But his lashed out intent was to make people feel ridiculous for thinking two men could be in a relationship, and that's damaging and homophobic.

And that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post. People who strongly believe/want to believe that they are dating seem to read those old quotes in a totally different way than I do for example. None of the quotes posted above contain homophobia. He's not mocking the idea of just 2 random men being together. He just doesn't like the idea of him and Phil being together, which is personal preference and not homophobia.

I prefaced with understanding the context as a means of saying this is why I am not holding 2012 Dan against 2019 Dan, but my belief that they're dating does not change the fact that implying that thinking two men are together is wrong/relating that to creepy/weird/insane is the issue.

Yes, I agree, that would be an issue, if he actually had said that. But he didn't. He found it creepy that people kept on shipping him and Phil, trying to prove that they are in a relationship, even though he said many times that they were just platonic friends. This isn't about homosexuality at all. It's about the fact that random people on the internet wanted to believe that he is dating someone he wasn't. It would have been the same if one of them was a girl, except no one would have seen any moral issues with them denying phan then.

I had meant to include something along these lines in my original response. I actually take a slightly different middle ground. I don’t think it’s about the idea of two men in general, nor do I think it’s a matter of not liking the idea of him and Phil being together. He is lashing out and belittling the idea that people on the internet who believe that two guys who are very close, have great chemistry and have “hints” of romantic backstory, including but not limited to a video love letter, could be a couple.

And no he’s not just correcting people who think he’s gay because he’s actually bi. He said several things at this time, mostly in liveshows that made it clear that he was not attracted to guys at all. Including “if I ever decide to bat for that camp” and the lovely suggestion that the only way for a male viewer to have sex with him is to rohypnol him. So it’s not just shipping or mislabeling, he didn’t want to be seen as queer in anyway. And that’s fine, he wasn’t ready. Thank goodness for personal growth. And just to make it clear I do have empathy for him at every stage. I can’t imagine having your personal life being scrutinized by thousands of strangers on the internet. But if you accept that he was closeted personally at the time, why is it so difficult to think that they are closeted as a couple?

[noodlebum]

Their content and interests the last year or so would seem very strange if they are two straight bros, just saying

[hello9217]

Damn what a thing to come back to. I'm just going to live this here because as much as I think it's important to look back on people's past actions, it's also important to see how much they have grown. And honestly if you can look at this and say dan's reaction here to being called gay and him being asked if he's gay in the past are the same then I have no idea what to tell you.

[liola]

@Stakhanov and @Nevermind I'm gonna reply to both of you here: you're looking at the situation with the numbers he has NOW.
Now people don't go about danrific with the same numbers because well, maybe because they barely interact anymore.
But back in the day, considering how smaller their audience was compared to now, and how many interactions there were between Dan and Phil and Cat, it wasn't the exact same but it was pretty divided. People wrote fics, people commented danrific vs phan under their collabs, people made edits and up until a couple of years ago people tagged Dan in edits with him and Cat.

You don't get to pick and choose my friends.

From the very earliest days they talked on skype and tweeted and dailyboothed etc, there have been Phan comments. I don't find the danrific or phimmy ship at all comparable with how phan has influenced them and the tone of the fandom at large. I'm not looking at the situation and numbers now, I'm talking about the whole of interactions within the fandom at large. The actual irl relationship between them isn't the same either, or the effort they had previously put in clarifying their own position. So if your really think danrific and phan were equivalent at the the time of the writing of the blog (let alone now), you are free to pick and choose your opinion but I'm not convinced. They are not equivalent.

-It was said that Dan would've done the same if the comments were said about one of his girl friends.
-I pointed out that there were, in fact, comments and people who talked about him and his girl friend, particularly cat (hell, i's part of the reason why she was treated so unfairly bad)
-You said that the reason why he didn't lash out the same way is because there were less people "arrassing" him about it
-I pointed out that you can't talk about numbers because actually, at the time it sure wasn't 50/50 divided between danrific vs phan but it sure was similar enough that we can make a comparison, because he had a closer relationship to Cat than he does now, they collabed with her, his audience was much smaller than it is now and that kind of divider between ships went on even longer than just 2012, because even a couple of years ago there were fanfics, edits, blogs about it (one example is when she went to london and stayed at their house and people taking that as proof)
- Now you're saying that the danrific comments didn't influence them as much (but how do you know? that's a bit farfetched, we don't know because he didn't speak about it. He never said a thing about it, so if the problem is people oppressing him about a relationship with a close friend as Cat was at the time, there clearly is a reason for that.

So now either we say that Dan's strong reaction could be seen as quite homophobic since he didn't lash out at people shipping him with a girl but did at people shipping with a boy, or we understand that he was a scared closeted depressed barely-out-of-teen-years who wanted to protect his own privacy while trying to pay rent and bills.

[coffeepenguin]

Now people don't go about danrific with the same numbers because well, maybe because they barely interact anymore.
But back in the day, considering how smaller their audience was compared to now, and how many interactions there were between Dan and Phil and Cat, it wasn't the exact same but it was pretty divided. People wrote fics, people commented danrific vs phan under their collabs, people made edits and up until a couple of years ago people tagged Dan in edits with him and Cat.

wow, really? I've only been following them since 2017, so I don't have any knowledge on the prior state of the phandom, apart from people reminiscing on this very forum or some things that you just can't miss as a newly converted phanny, like the customer service blog. I have a huge weakness for fandom history, so I find it absolutely fascinating. Does anyone have a link to a danrific timeline or something?

[waveydnp]

@Stakhanov i’m bi too. you don’t have a monopoly on queerness here, bud. just because some people’s homophobia is a lot more extreme than dan’s csb responses doesn’t negate the fact that they were homophobic. just because you like dan enough not to be offended by his comments doesn’t mean they’re not homophobic. homophobia can present itself in a million ways both large and small. in retrospect dan’s came from a place of fear and anger, but that doesn’t lessen the impact they no doubt had on legions of his queer fans. why exactly is that something you feel the need to argue?

[sapienveneficus]

Thinking about that time in 2012 when Dan wrote these posts makes me feel sad for him. He must have been going through a lot and not coping well at all. It is good to see that he's in a better place these days.

On a more uplifting note, does anyone else watch a certain video every year on February 14th? Because I do(or at least I have for the past few years), and it never fails to make me smile.

[tigertatze]

Damn what a thing to come back to. I'm just going to live this here because as much as I think it's important to look back on people's past actions, it's also important to see how much they have grown. And honestly if you can look at this and say dan's reaction here to being called gay and him being asked if he's gay in the past are the same then I have no idea what to tell you.

ignoring the ongoing discourse that wig with the flowers is a strong look tbh

[Stakhanov]

@Stakhanov i’m bi too. you don’t have a monopoly on queerness here, bud. just because some people’s homophobia is a lot more extreme than dan’s csb responses doesn’t negate the fact that they were homophobic. just because you like dan enough not to be offended by his comments doesn’t mean they’re not homophobic. homophobia can present itself in a million ways both large and small. in retrospect dan’s came from a place of fear and anger, but that doesn’t lessen the impact they no doubt had on legions of his queer fans. why exactly is that something you feel the need to argue?

Ok, bud, where have I ever claimed I have some monopoly on queerness? Where do you even get that notion? Do you think there are people who can have a monopoly on queerness? I would find that an odd thought. The only reason I mentioned it, is because I know there are people in the fandom that take the view that an opinion on a minority is worth less if you don't belong to said minority. That i would not have any legitimate contribution if I were straight. Which would be sadly heterophobic. So it was a disclaimer if you will as i thought it likely that people would react critically.

Your suggestion that my opinions are based on the fact that "I like dan enough not to be offended by his comments" I find a bit of a cheap ad hominem. If you don't mean it that way, it shows you haven't read or misunderstood all of the posts where explain my reasoning in detail, something you haven't. Not even once have I invoked 'liking dan' as an argument. That line of reasoning is something I would only expect from very young fans who still need to grow in maturity.

Why do you find the need to argue for Dan's posts being homophobic? I did not bring this issue up for debate. I originally responded to a post that said the blog answers were reappearing on instagram. The accusation was made that these posts could be homophobic and gaslighting. I find these serious issues, worthy of scrutiny. I have extensively offered my reasoning why I think calling these posts homophobic trivializes the nature of homophobia. In discussion with other people offering their own opinions. You are now free to take or or leave my opinion.

[waveydnp]

@Stakhanov yeah i’m definitely gonna leave it, just as i do pretty much all of your opinions. i find the need to argue the point that dan’s statements were homophobic because...... they were. idk, i don’t really think it’s that hard to understand?

[Nevermind]

It's been a while since I've read some of those, but yeah. I understand the context of the situation for Dan, I understand the place he was coming from while I still don't condone his microaggressions. But his lashed out intent was to make people feel ridiculous for thinking two men could be in a relationship, and that's damaging and homophobic.

And that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post. People who strongly believe/want to believe that they are dating seem to read those old quotes in a totally different way than I do for example. None of the quotes posted above contain homophobia. He's not mocking the idea of just 2 random men being together. He just doesn't like the idea of him and Phil being together, which is personal preference and not homophobia.

I prefaced with understanding the context as a means of saying this is why I am not holding 2012 Dan against 2019 Dan, but my belief that they're dating does not change the fact that implying that thinking two men are together is wrong/relating that to creepy/weird/insane is the issue.

Yes, I agree, that would be an issue, if he actually had said that. But he didn't. He found it creepy that people kept on shipping him and Phil, trying to prove that they are in a relationship, even though he said many times that they were just platonic friends. This isn't about homosexuality at all. It's about the fact that random people on the internet wanted to believe that he is dating someone he wasn't. It would have been the same if one of them was a girl, except no one would have seen any moral issues with them denying phan then.

I had meant to include something along these lines in my original response. I actually take a slightly different middle ground. I don’t think it’s about the idea of two men in general, nor do I think it’s a matter of not liking the idea of him and Phil being together. He is lashing out and belittling the idea that people on the internet who believe that two guys who are very close, have great chemistry and have “hints” of romantic backstory, including but not limited to a video love letter, could be a couple.

And no he’s not just correcting people who think he’s gay because he’s actually bi. He said several things at this time, mostly in liveshows that made it clear that he was not attracted to guys at all. Including “if I ever decide to bat for that camp” and the lovely suggestion that the only way for a male viewer to have sex with him is to rohypnol him. So it’s not just shipping or mislabeling, he didn’t want to be seen as queer in anyway. And that’s fine, he wasn’t ready. Thank goodness for personal growth. And just to make it clear I do have empathy for him at every stage. I can’t imagine having your personal life being scrutinized by thousands of strangers on the internet. But if you accept that he was closeted personally at the time, why is it so difficult to think that they are closeted as a couple?

I don't think that they are a closeted couple because I just don't see the romantic chemistry between them. They, without a doubt, have great chemistry in general, I enjoy their joint videos more than their single content. They are nice, seem down to earth and they make me smile, which is what I value the most in Youtubers and their content nowadays. But to me there is just nothing between them that screams "couple".

[thestigdrivesamini]

Hi there, not to #spon myself, but I made a post on tumblr surrounding this subject awhile back which is pretty much want I wanted to say here.
http://keelinsthename.tumblr.com/post/1 ... zy-to-kind

Like others have reiterated, he was definitely not in a good place and was beyond ill equipped for the attention he was receiving, but that doesn’t negate the hurtful and homophobic statements he made. But he’s proved time and time again that he’s not that person anymore, much like any of us are not the person we were at 19/20. We can love and appreciate him now without ignoring his past because it shows his growth as a person.

[lionandllama]

This entire debate is extremely exhausting and I personally find it very ignorant and hurtful to see people dismissing all the problematic shit that happened in 2012/13 and pretending like it was just “impolite but understandable”.

I’d like to share my view on all of this as well, as someone who started watching Dan and Phil in 2012, left the fandom in 2015 and came back after the mukbang video, I summed it up in a post:
http://thelionandthellama.tumblr.com/po ... -it-but-as

He suffered from internalised homophobia, period. He said homophobic things. It was pretty fucked up. It was also fucked up how people invaded his privacy, “forced” him out of the closet, it was all pretty traumatic for him and I do feel for Dan. I do understand why a human would react that way. It was still homophobic and fucked up.