Dan & Phil Part 84: Still Alive

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Tottrie wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:09 am What would be a good way for them to advertise their merch if they can't show us them? What I mean is, if they can't talk about it in their videos, or make stories on Instagram, then how are we supposed to learn about them? A quick tweet with no pictures?
I think Phil is advertising his merch in the most "ethical" way he could, actually. He tells us that this is his merch and what it looks like and that we can buy it if we want to in ca. 30 seconds, then he moves on. There's nothing exploitative or hyper commercial about that, all the facts are there and no one is forced to buy anything, like you said. Also, Phil offers nice, unique designs for okay prices. There are people like Ariana Grande who sell plain white tees with their name or picture slapped on it for $40.00 (bless her, but that's a lot of money for that product).

I'm puzzled too how else he would advertise his merch or if people think he shouldn't be selling merch at all. How would that work? Merch, (VIP) tickets to their tours etc. are his main source of income and the way he advertises them has always been very clear and fair. (Unless you wanna count him showing a video of Dan as emotional manipulation which is a reach, if you ask me. If he had Dan say: "Buy Phil's merch and I'll be back on Youtube tomorrow" sure, but it was literally just a short clip of Dan taking some pictures of the merch...)
liola wrote:They have a product they need to sell, not just to become richer but also because they have employees whose salaries and job stability will depend on their sales.
Bless. People love to forget that the money doesn't go just into their own pockets. They run companies with employees and stuff that need to be payed. Like, pretty sure Lauren and the others don't work for Phil for free and the few people we see in merch pictures and stuff aren't the only ones keeping the brand running behind the scenes. It's not like they sell overpriced trash and keep all the money for themselves. They sell nicely designed products for reasonable prices, some of the income goes to them, a lot goes into keeping their brand and companies running.
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I don't understand why some people get so upset about DnP making money... are they supposed to work for free? Or is it because they're Youtubers and people don't consider that a "real job"?
Phil's videos and merch may not be to your liking and that's cool, everyone's entitled to like or dislike what they please. But to be bitter about him making a profit for doing his job? That I don't understand.
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As a former international marketing student I find this discussion very interesting but I don't really have the energy to join in :lol:

But can I just say : the reason they sell merch in the first place is because WE WANT IT, right? We'd be complaining if they DIDN'T sell merch! Even if they didn't sell merch themselves we would still be buying merch from fanartists. Would it also be emotionally manipulative of those artists to sell d&p merch for their own profit in this case? :shrug:

Plus whenever they released new merch Dan would always make a point to say that you're not any less of a fan if you can't/don't want to buy it, it's just something nice for those who want to support them!

Now if we're talking about questionable marketing techniques I would say Alfie Deyes is a perfect example! He's constantly bringing out exclusive limited edition merch and really pushing people to buy it before it's all gone, and his audience is even younger than deppy's! :shrug:
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Grumpybisexual wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:16 pm As a former international marketing student I find this discussion very interesting but I don't really have the energy to join in :lol:

But can I just say : the reason they sell merch in the first place is because WE WANT IT, right? We'd be complaining if they DIDN'T sell merch! Even if they didn't sell merch themselves we would still be buying merch from fanartists. Would it also be emotionally manipulative of those artists to sell d&p merch for their own profit in this case? :shrug:

Plus whenever they released new merch Dan would always make a point to say that you're not any less of a fan if you can't/don't want to buy it, it's just something nice for those who want to support them!

Now if we're talking about questionable marketing techniques I would say Alfie Deyes is a perfect example! He's constantly bringing out exclusive limited edition merch and really pushing people to buy it before it's all gone, and his audience is even younger than deppy's! :shrug:
Hi fellow former international marketing student :springdog: did you also got swamped with international law exams that made you want to pull your hair out?

Yes, Alfie is a prime example of bad sale strategies, the whole limited edition thing is one of those things that make me want to roll my eyes, cause it's usually a way to order less stock and high jack the price, and use the fear of missing out to get people to rush out and buy more so he can say woooow we sold out with high demand we brought the merch back!
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@tottrie glad you're chipping in, I think a lot of people have different views about this and I'm happy to see it discussed. What would be a good way for them to advertise their merch is a hard question but in my opinion it certainly excludes abusing people's desire to see Dan, if that's what they are doing. I think I've already put most of my thoughts in previous posts, so i'm going to bring back two reservations I have.
I don't celebrate the hypercommercial attitude of "Capital £ester", I worry for the effect that advanced marketing strategies can have on young minds in this fandom, given the celebrity worship that comes with it and precisely because it is the (social) norm for some to buy as much merch as they can.


Phil is doing nothing illegal by launching new merch, but I found this one a bit out of place. They both made a killing the last couple of years, are presumably quite wealthy and have already gotten a lot of monetary support from their audience in general.
In this context, I think he ought to not look for new ways to make his fans spend money on him. As I view it, it's partly a question of personal ethics and partly a question of fairness. As a rich guy, how much more money do you want to extract out of your audience of sometimes very young fans? I would hope the answer isn't "as much as I can". In a broader sense, how wealthy should youtubers actually be? I don't think there's a good reason Phil (and Dan) earn and own more than all nurses in a hospital combined. This isn't a problem unique to Phil, but I see this huge inequality as a general problem that confronts Phil with a choice. The fact that Phil can choose to earn less yet still live extremely comfortably gives him in my opinion a social responsibility to self-limit the wealth he can accrue (until more fair policies are in place). That's not a view I just hold for Phil, but one I hold for all other youtubers, entertainers, football stars, bankers, etc.


As for the story, I wouldn't call it flat out emotional manipulation, in contrast to a lot of advertisement where I do know i'm consciously being manipulated. I personally don't think they really intend to use people's emotions as an instrument for their financial gain. They've never asked for fans who are so emotionally involved that the mere sighting of Dan would be a great way to bring attention to the shop. So maybe it was just them taking pictures without any ulterior motive. That said, who knows what their exact intentions really were? Maybe they just wanted to show some of the behind the scenes of Phil's photo shoot and showing Dan was mostly an unintended side-effect. At the same time it's hard to imagine that whoever was filming Dan wouldn't realize that his presence in an IRL story would elicit response. I think there's a lot of grey area here and their actions could take on a different shade of it if we knew what their full thinking on that selfie picture or Dan being in the story.
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@stakhanov from what I can gather, you're not actually upset with Dan and Phil. You're upset with the fact that YouTubers as a whole make more money than nurses or other professions? Tell me if I'm wrong, but if it is that way here is my reapons.

I get it, I mean I'm studying engineering (a 5year program) and will never see the sums they are making. But the way I see it is that even though I have a education and will go and hopefully help people in some way, that doesn't make Dan and Phil's job less important. It doesn't make any youtuber or entertainer job less important. Because they help people, they make people happy, they bring people together. That is important. When I was at my lowest entertainers helped me through it. A society needs everyone.

Then, to the money. I will graduate in 3 years, then I will work until I'm 65 (the legal age to retire in Sweden). You can work more years than that if you want.
But entertainers, such as YouTubers or football players, when will their carriers end? They don't know, is very unstable. They can have 2 good years and then nothing. Maybe they have 20, you never know.

Also, if you made a song, or book, or painting and people love it, wouldn't you sell it to them? And if people really, really love it wouldn't you make merch? All of this is, in way, because of other people. Just like any other business they sell things to people. In this case (indirectly) videos and merch. Other businesses sell other things.
And as @liola wrote, they have employees, just like any business, that want a salary.

Dan and Phil have a business that make entertainment for people to enjoy. They want, and make, people happy. And one part of that business is merch that is completely optional for us to buy. Yes, they make a lot of money but that is because people support them. If they didn't have that they wouldn't make as much money. This is just like any other entertainer and any other business.
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My question is - if the hiatus wasn’t happening, would anyone find anything questionable about these marketing techniques?
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scientia wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:31 pm My question is - if the hiatus wasn’t happening, would anyone find anything questionable about these marketing techniques?
This is true. But also, is there really a hiatus anymore? Yes, the gaming channel and Dan. But Phil is uploading, and it's he who is releasing merch.
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scientia wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:31 pm My question is - if the hiatus wasn’t happening, would anyone find anything questionable about these marketing techniques?
Right? I'm not sure if people are more tuned in to it at the moment since there's not much else to focus on? Selfies, videos, etc. have always been strategically released in correlation to merch launches & sales, but perhaps it seems more obvious now since there's not a lot going on? These types of things are just the nature of selling and not something I see as being overtly manipulative.

I guess there's a bit of manipulation in any type of selling, really. I remember a lot of people were turned off by Nathan Zed's 'Good Enough' campaign and how he went about promoting it (show people you love yourself by buying my shirt!)(I own two and they're lovely).

I know some people don't like the idea that dnp are trying to sell stuff when they haven't been as active (or in Dan's case active at all) this year but I don't feel like those two things go hand in hand. They went full speed ahead for 10+ years creating free stuff for me to consume & a break in that doesn't stop me from wanting to support them (that's just how I feel, of course other feelings about it are valid too). If Dan launched his new stuff tomorrow and I like it, I'll feel just fine purchasing it, especially since his last big launch went to charity - that's £30k he could have pocketed since well all know the 'have the courage to exist' stuff would have sold regardless, and he seems genuinely excited about the new items he's been making, which makes me excited to see them.
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Tottrie wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:39 pm
scientia wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:31 pm My question is - if the hiatus wasn’t happening, would anyone find anything questionable about these marketing techniques?
This is true. But also, is there really a hiatus anymore? Yes, the gaming channel and Dan. But Phil is uploading, and it's he who is releasing merch.
Exactly! I should have stipulated joint content hiatus.
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I haven’t been super clear on what the recent concerns about privacy/comfort in the last two moderator notes are referring to. Should I be, or is it something personal that’s not directed at all of us? I’m just a bit confused, sorry!
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Tottrie wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:27 pm @stakhanov from what I can gather, you're not actually upset with Dan and Phil. You're upset with the fact that YouTubers as a whole make more money than nurses or other professions? Tell me if I'm wrong, but if it is that way here is my reapons.

I get it, I mean I'm studying engineering (a 5year program) and will never see the sums they are making. But the way I see it is that even though I have a education and will go and hopefully help people in some way, that doesn't make Dan and Phil's job less important. It doesn't make any youtuber or entertainer job less important. Because they help people, they make people happy, they bring people together. That is important. When I was at my lowest entertainers helped me through it. A society needs everyone.

Then, to the money. I will graduate in 3 years, then I will work until I'm 65 (the legal age to retire in Sweden). You can work more years than that if you want.
But entertainers, such as YouTubers or football players, when will their carriers end? They don't know, is very unstable. They can have 2 good years and then nothing. Maybe they have 20, you never know.

Also, if you made a song, or book, or painting and people love it, wouldn't you sell it to them? And if people really, really love it wouldn't you make merch? All of this is, in way, because of other people. Just like any other business they sell things to people. In this case (indirectly) videos and merch. Other businesses sell other things.
And as @liola wrote, they have employees, just like any business, that want a salary.

Dan and Phil have a business that make entertainment for people to enjoy. They want, and make, people happy. And one part of that business is merch that is completely optional for us to buy. Yes, they make a lot of money but that is because people support them. If they didn't have that they wouldn't make as much money. This is just like any other entertainer and any other business.
Yea upset wouldn't be the word but I do think he has a personal choice and social responsibility, and would be disappointed in Phil (and Dan for that matter) if they would just keep on "milking the fandom cow" so to speak, while they're sort of slowly disengaging from youtube.

Personally i couldn't care less about the merch itself, but I understand other people might really want it. Like i put in my first post, a lot comes down to personal tolerance and sensitivities. I think youtubers shouldn't just try to make as much money as they want. Especially Dan and Phil who aren't exactly struggling creators and don't have to worry how many good years they've got left. They already have amassed wealth far beyond almost everyone of us ever will with our jobs that are also important. This has nothing to do with the value of the job as "youtuber". I'm not saying an entertainer who makes people happy is less important than a nurse, but I also don't think they are more important or valuable, while the cold hard economic fact is that Dan and Phil as entertainers get so much more financially rewarded. I hope they are sensitive about this reality when they look at their own opportunities to look for revenue.

The employees of the Dan and Phil shop are people who I imagine like everybody wish for a stable job and salary. I hope for one that they have indefinite contracts (or however you call a work contract that's not limited in time in English).
I hope they have thought about their futures after the tour and are giving them a fair shake. I think the broader future of the hiatus and Dan and Phil content in general is just as crucial for their employment prospects as one merch launch (as well as whatever is happening now with other youtubers distributing through IRL).


Edit: argh this post was stuck in limbo I forgot to press submit.

To answers @scientia's question: I would have the same reservations regardless of hiatus or not. As @anna imo correctly points out, I guess there's some manipulation in all selling. That's what I think too and that's one of the reason's I don't think any sort of selling is "ok selling".
But I also don't think it's a black-and-white issues, and even if I were to be disappointed in some of Phil's methods, that doesn't take away that I generally like and respect him and think he does most things ok.
The one practice i really had more of an issue with is the paid meet&greets. I know some k-pop bands to them, idk if other entertainers do them but to me it's a very odd society indeed where we turning saying hi&bye + taking a pic into a commodity you have to pay a fancy amount of cash for. It's also means that that form of more personal interaction is now at least in part linked to your spending power and the economic status (of your parents) and reserved for the privileged who can shell out the money without to much problems.
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Stakhanov wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:21 pm
Personally i couldn't care less about the merch itself, but I understand other people might really want it. Like i put in my first post, a lot comes down to personal tolerance and sensitivities. I think youtubers shouldn't just try to make as much money as they want. Especially Dan and Phil who aren't exactly struggling creators and don't have to worry how many good years they've got left. They already have amassed wealth far beyond almost everyone of us ever will with our jobs that are also important. This has nothing to do with the value of the job as "youtuber". I'm not saying an entertainer who makes people happy is less important than a nurse, but I also don't think they are more important or valuable, while the cold hard economic fact is that Dan and Phil as entertainers get so much more financially rewarded. I hope they are sensitive about this reality when they look at their own opportunities to look for revenue.
I think it is rather naive to say that they shouldn't try to make as much money as they want. As @liola said, we live in a capitalist society. Besides (but this might be personal) the fact that they give a lot (imo) to several charities makes it even more natural to me that they would want to make money. What I mean is that they don't make money and keep everything to themselves, they also give back and that's important to me. But they do also make money because they need to make a living, that's natural in our society. And as several people pointed out, they don't spon their merch in an excessive way and Dan used to say on a regular basis that nobody needs / has to buy their merch, highlighting the fact that it was a not-that-essential bonus.
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Naive or not, it's a principle I measure them by and I bet there's others in the fandom who think similarly. (Not that the strength of an argument is measured by it's popularity).
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Image

rizzo said I had to post this. Look at me posting this. :ribena: (no, rizzle wasn't trying to stage some sort of coup... I just couldn't believe nobody else had already posted/commented on it is all...) :?
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DryCereal wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:02 pm Image

rizzo said I had to post this. Look at me posting this. :ribena: (no, rizzle wasn't trying to stage some sort of coup... I just couldn't believe nobody else had already posted/commented on it is all...) :?
I can't see it which is making me very sad ;_;
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Hopefully that's working better...
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Stakhanov wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:21 pm The one practice i really had more of an issue with is the paid meet&greets. I know some k-pop bands to them, idk if other entertainers do them but to me it's a very odd society indeed where we turning saying hi&bye + taking a pic into a commodity you have to pay a fancy amount of cash for. It's also means that that form of more personal interaction is now at least in part linked to your spending power and the economic status (of your parents) and reserved for the privileged who can shell out the money without to much problems.
I know a large majority of artists/bands do paid m&g on tour. The other big place for them is comicon. I would say most entertainers have probably done a paid m&g because it's pretty standard now. I do agree it's a bit weird to be paying just to say hi to another human being, but it's nothing out of the ordinary in this day and age so I don't think we can blame d&p for doing it. I'm sure if they said they would never do one people would be upset too, because for a lot of people that's the only way they'll ever meet them. Another upside of m&gs is safety of the performer. It's a controlled environment and they can use the money people are spending for security. And I also know a lot of people who attend m&gs save up for a while, so it's not necessarily exclusive to people who can spend that much money without a problem, though I will admit that's the majority of people who attend them. All in all, yes it's a slightly dystopian concept, but nothing new, and people obviously enjoy them and think that they're worth the money, or they wouldn't still be a thing.
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anathema wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:16 pm
Stakhanov wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:21 pm The one practice i really had more of an issue with is the paid meet&greets. I know some k-pop bands to them, idk if other entertainers do them but to me it's a very odd society indeed where we turning saying hi&bye + taking a pic into a commodity you have to pay a fancy amount of cash for. It's also means that that form of more personal interaction is now at least in part linked to your spending power and the economic status (of your parents) and reserved for the privileged who can shell out the money without to much problems.
I know a large majority of artists/bands do paid m&g on tour. The other big place for them is comicon. I would say most entertainers have probably done a paid m&g because it's pretty standard now. I do agree it's a bit weird to be paying just to say hi to another human being, but it's nothing out of the ordinary in this day and age so I don't think we can blame d&p for doing it. I'm sure if they said they would never do one people would be upset too, because for a lot of people that's the only way they'll ever meet them. Another upside of m&gs is safety of the performer. It's a controlled environment and they can use the money people are spending for security. And I also know a lot of people who attend m&gs save up for a while, so it's not necessarily exclusive to people who can spend that much money without a problem, though I will admit that's the majority of people who attend them. All in all, yes it's a slightly dystopian concept, but nothing new, and people obviously enjoy them and think that they're worth the money, or they wouldn't still be a thing.
Kpop bands meet and greet are another thing entirely. You don’t just buy a ticket and you get into meet and greet.
It’s for a small group of people only so they do it with a lottery where you have to buy 1 album or other sponsored products for 1 lottery ticket. So the fans basically competed to get as much tickets in as they could by buying more albums so the probability of meeting their idol is higher. For the most popular groups, a lot of people buy 40-ish til hundreds of albums (and some of them still didn’t get in to the fanmeeting).

This isn’t the only way of meeting them but iirc, I think a lot of popular groups do this.
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Stakhanov wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:56 pm Naive or not, it's a principle I measure them by and I bet there's others in the fandom who think similarly. (Not that the strength of an argument is measured by it's popularity).
I guess I don’t understand who decides when they’ve “made enough money”. 1 million dollars? 5 million? 10 million? 1 billion? When is enough for you? People have to eat and food/rent/etc isn’t free. I’m not judging people for hustling out there earning a living. They are contributing members of society who give back to charity and pay taxes. And I’m not going to judge anyone who wants to buy merch or who doesn’t want to. Who cares. Do it or don’t.
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Stakhanov wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:21 pm The one practice i really had more of an issue with is the paid meet&greets. I know some k-pop bands to them, idk if other entertainers do them but to me it's a very odd society indeed where we turning saying hi&bye + taking a pic into a commodity you have to pay a fancy amount of cash for.
The price of the m&g also included the ticket for the show, one of the best seats in the venue, & a VIP merch bag, so it's not like the "fancy amount of cash" was just to meet them. Troye Sivan said that he wasn't going to do meet & greets at his shows because he didn't want to charge people to meet him, which okay, that's fine, but I saw him at the same venue I saw II, paid the same price for the ticket because I wanted a seat close to the stage, but I didn't get to meet him or have any exclusive merch. So I think dnp did a good job incorporating the m&g into the price of what the venue would charge anyway for the premium seats without price gouging us for the opportunity to meet them.

Not exactly related but on the topic of meeting them, I really appreciate that dnp are so generous with meeting fans they run into out & about. We've seen pics of people interrupting their dinner, their jogs, moments when they think they're going blind ( :lol: ) etc. and they never turn anyone away. I also really like that they work w/make a wish & the willow foundation.
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The last VIP I bought was for Pentatonix 3 years ago, it was the most expensive one (300 euro) which comprised a meet & greet with photo, some merch, a signing and a private performance, plus access to the first two rows, but the actual ticket for the concert was to be purchased as well. It was a lot, but I saved for it, I knew it was an experience I wouldn't repeat easily or that soon, and I splurged on it because I wanted to. You never just pay for the 10 seconds of meeting the artist, you pay for all the surrounding feats as well as the time they spend meeting hundreds of people, which is also risky for their health. (Like last year ptx introduced a no hug policy because they kept getting sick on tour)

I didn't get meet and greet for dnp because they sold out too fast for my show and I also couldn't justify the anxiety I would feel in the crowd for the quick meeting - and tbh I'm kinda sad I didn't try for it. But I didn't feel like I HAD to buy the VIP to be a better fan, and I only bought the merch that I would actually wear, even if it had been sold by h&m
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So the London Premier of End Game is tomorrow. I assume these were the hard to acquire Phil was tweeting about awhile back. Will we see our boys on the red carpet? What will they be wearing? Will Dan show off his grid jacket again? Or will they surprise us with new looks? Will we finally get to see Phil in a suit with his quiff? And dare we hope for a couples selfie? Or a group one with Bryony? Will PJ and Sophie come? Any other YouTubers in their old circle? I’m more excited for these possibilities than the actual movie.
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Dan is even quieter than usual (not liking things etc). I wonder if, between Game of Thrones and Avengers, he’s in maximum Spoiler Avoidance Mode? :lol:

A little after the fact, but the pics/vid of them taking the merchandise photos made me so happy, even if it was a month ago. I didn’t necessarily assume Dan was there when Phil posted the pics originally but I just love that he took the photos. It just makes me feel all warm.

I’m sure Dan mentioned the imax when he tweeted about Avengers so I assume they’ll go there; I don’t know if they’d be at the premiere itself, I think getting tickets for the first night(s) was hard enough, according to everyone on all my social medias anyway, heh.
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