Dan & Phil Part 84: Still Alive

[black_rat]

I am glad to read that there are others who feel a bit meh about the merch spon. Thought I will also share my thoughts, but I understand that most people feel differently, but I just wanted to vent. If you do not like to read about negative feelings, better skip it.

Generally speaking, I feel there is a dived in the phandom between people who don't understand why people take the hiatus so bad, people who are just fine with how things are right now. People like to compare this to other fandoms of tv shows or books and talk about how little content they have gotten but there is still a strong community around them. Those are also sometimes the people who do not really like fourth wall breaking and just want to have fun in their community they have built with other fans. (Sorry I am not citing anyone right now, that are just general things I have read over the last few weeks)

I myself do not fall in this category, I am in this fandom (which is my first and right now only fandom) because I like the connection dan and Phil have with their audience. It is a phandom build around real people on YouTube, which has always been about interacting with the viewers. I really enjoy fanwork and it has now become a really important part of my fandom experience, but I still do need to feel a connection to dan and Phil. If I feel like they don't engage with us as an audience, it makes it harder for me to read fic for example and I rather want to distance myself from the whole situation. And yes I know, they are not our friends, bla bla but with liveshows and tweets and stories and tumblr and twitter likes, there was still always a connection they had with us. Now this seems to vanish or at least gets less.

(People in this category, or maybe even in both, then try to look at our behaviour and what we did wrong and why it is clear why dan doesn't want to talk to us etc, I am also not a big fan of that conversation. Yes, we might have something to do with it, but guilt-tripping ourselves into being responsible for being ignored or left alone is also not the way to go, imo)

So back to the topic of merch. Of course it is important for them to make money and I have no issue with that. And while I do feel like Phil brings out and promotes a lot of merch in a short amount of time (with ii merch and also the sales etc,..) it might just be because there is not as much content around, and because the rize liveshows were so short and so full of spons. (The giveaway situation also made me a bit mad, but it seems like they are still doing that, so thats cool). One thing that slightly bothers me is that sponning makes rewatching videos not as fun, but its fine, I can deal with that. Is nothing I would usually comment about, I would just try to move on, and maybe even occasionally buy something. Comparing this to other youtubers who are bad examples I feel like does not really put it into perspective for me, there are also a lot of good examples.

Anyway, what my main issue about this situation is:

When the rize polaroits were posted, everyone felt ecstatic about them. I did not feel excited because it was not something they (dan) wanted to give to us. If dan could have opted out of having to show his face, I bet he would have.
Then they gave us a great Easter gift, the ig stories, instead of a video which in theory was nice. But they put it on the IRL ig and it was about Phil's merch. In no way did Phil or dan talk to us, instead they made the Phandom excited about promoting Phil's stuff. I am not saying this is wrong in any way or form, I also do not think that it is unethical, I am just saying that it makes me feel sad. This might not be a rational response, but it is the way I feel. I saw a lot of people being happy about knowing that dan and Phil still exist in the same frame, and while that generally also makes me happy, for me it does have to feel like something they want to share with us. I know some people in this phandom would be content just knowing that dan and Phil are happy, even if they stop engaging with us. And while I do want them to be happy, this knowledge is not enough for me to be in this fandom. I like them because they are YouTubers who share their lives (to some extent) with us. If they stop doing that, I will be sad.

For me it feels like there was always more of a balance between the audience-relationship we have with them and the customer-relationship we have with them. Now I only feel like a costumer, and I don't like that. I miss having a dialog with them. And while it might not be fair to feel this way so strongly about Phil, because he does "regular" uploads, I can also not forget that until last year there was another person beside him on his channel, which then vanished without Phil ever mentioning it or explaining it. I get that he doesn't touch the subject because he feels like dan should be the one saying something about it, but still. And for dan, I know there are thousand speculations why he isn't communicating with us, or opinions that he has done enough communicating but in the end I would like to hear it from himself. And if he doesn't want to talk with or to us, then he can also do that. I am not saying we are "owed" anything in a legal sense or anything. I guess I just have to deal with being ghosted then.

Anyway. I am pumped for Phil's next video.

[cocolero]

Ahoy.

I have some bad news - Daniel hasn't been on his official social media for almost a day. He hasn't even logged in or glanced at it.

This I can prove beyond any possible doubt.

How? Am I a spy? A psychic? No.

I'm just sitting here waiting for him to like Connor Franta's last insta.



I am patient Daniel. I will see you thirst away.

[Stakhanov]

Hi, i liked reading your contribution and would like to say that a critical opinion is not the same as "negativity" for me at all. One man's positive conviction is another man's lie anyway. I'd hope this forum exists to talk about differing opinions in the fandom, rather than just reinforce a certain point of view on Dan and Phil that's all about cute dog calendars and Plants.

It's interesting to consider the different reasons people stick to a fandom. I'm also somebody who has ever just been in one fandom (i don't even like describing myself as a fan because it implies a certain fan-idol relationship which is often fraught with issues. But given my continued engagement, I guess i'm just trash ).
I'm here for the emotional connection with a real person, even though that relationship is mostly parasocial/ one-sided / imagined. Still, over the years you get the sense you get to know a person better just by the things they share. Right now, that crucial part is lacking.
For some people or fandoms, i guess it doesn't even matter if there's a shred of content or reality for the fandom community to thrive. Personally I could never be part of such a fandom. I guess it's not a bad time in the D&P fandom for people that can sustain themselves with content we create ourselves like fanfiction. But i'm not to interested in fanfiction. It just builds and expands on illusions that are being projected on this blank slate fictional character. But Dan and Phil are real people, and the version of them we get to see is already highly redacted. I want to pierce that veil instead of adding extra layers until it fits a predetermined shape.

I hope the next Phil video will be the highly anticipated Q&A! I also hope it contains some meaningful information, we'll have to wait (more) and see

[Birdie]

Look, I think it’s deeply unfair to accuse Phil of being complicit in Dan’s BS because he’s not saying or explaining anything. It’s not his place. If Dan doesn’t want him to speak about Dan’s abscence, what kind of person would Phil be to do it anyways? I want to know what’s up with Dan as much as the next person but our desire to know is not as important as Phil keeping his silence if that’s what Dan wants him to do. It’s jarring not to know what’s going on with Dan but that’s on Dan, not Phil.

Phil is out there trying to get his channel back on track and this can’t be easy for him, having to pretend like Dan never existed (and he's not even doing that, he mentions him in a lot of the newer videos) as long as it’s unclear what’s going to happen to Dan’s channel or even the Dan and Phil brand. Ghosting is a very harsh word for this situation. Phil is keeping to himself on his own channel, probably (very probably, let’s be honest) because Dan asked him to or because they don’t know what Dan is going to do next themselves.

And I prefer this to empty promises of Dan’s return or whatever. Yes, I’d love Dan to say “I don’t know what’s going to happen next” but he isn’t doing that and that’s shit but it’s on Dan. Not Phil. And we really need to stop seeing them as one joint creator since they obviously, at this point, don’t wanna be that. Furthermore, Phil has been a creator in his own right before Dan came along and he’ll probably keep creating should Dan really decide to leave Youtube.

AmazingPhil as a separate brand works without the Dan and Phil brand and it feels like he’s trying to strengthen it right now by being just AmazingPhil and not the lesser part of Dan and Phil (harsh wording, but a lot of people prefer Dan, so…). If anything, I think Phil deserves our support because his aim is clearly to get his channel back on a regular schedule. He’s uploading regularly. He’s communicating when there’s a problem. His social media accounts are active.

So I’m asking: What do y’all want more? I know we live in an age where creators seem available on social media 24/7 and upload twice or more times a week but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong for Phil to go a more “traditional” route. It’s probably very healthy, considering he went to hospital last year for working too much. (And look at creators like Lilly Singh and Safiya Nygaard who had to take breaks and slow their schedules down because they burnt themselves out.)

I don’t wanna sound mean or anything but I think it’s entitled to ask Phil for more, especially after his hospital stint after the world tour. He’s uploading the content he wants to make. He’s active on social media. There’s something very ugly about saying he doesn’t “deserve” merch money or even to spon his merch for 30 seconds a video because he’s not giving us “enough” content. Who decides what “enough” is anyways? Phil is getting back to being a professional content creator who uploads regularly and at this point, I guess we can take it or leave it.

Phil is a creator who likes to keep us at bay and I think he’s having a very healthy creator-audience relationship with us at the moment. He’s keeping his (and Dan’s) private life, well, private, he’s not the type to invite his audience into every little corner of his life. And that’s fine. Just because other creators don’t draw that line doesn’t mean it’s not okay for Phil to do so. Saying he’s not giving us “enough” because he’s not personal enough, not uploading enough content, not deep enough might reflect your taste in Youtube creators but it doesn’t really mean what Phil’s doing is not okay. It’s okay. And it’s enough.

(I started writing this post in response to black_rat but I guess it's a lot more about the general opinions on Phil and his content floating around the phandom atm. I know you didn't say all of this, black_rat, dw, this is not directed at you. I have no idea when I turned into the Phil Defense Squad but this whole discussion is making me very tired and tl;dr I think we need to stop seeing “Dan and Phil” as an inseparable brand and we really need to stop holding Phil accountable for Dan’s BS.)

[Stakhanov]

I agree it's not on Phil to explain anything about Dan, Dan's absence is for Dan to answer and if he doesn't want to, that fine too (though regrettable as I would like to know him better). I've never seen them as an inseparable brand or considered them 'joined at the hip'. For me the hiatus started after the silent end of solo liveshows and Dan's last video. It's no secret that I think they are just very close friends and so I don't think it's strange in any way that Phil as an individual and youtuber for +10 years is trying to get his own channel back on track, regardless of Dan's professional choices.

I do want to chip in on the commercial aspect a last time because you use the strongly worded phrase "There’s something very ugly about saying he doesn’t “deserve” merch money or even to spon his merch for 30 seconds a video because he’s not giving us “enough” content."
I haven't seen anyone say Phil doesn't "deserve" merch money at all. But do i think a garbage collecter or waitress deserves so much less money than Phil as entertainer? No. Yet they do make so much less. Yet that is considered "normal" in the eyes of many because it is driven by capitalist market mechanics. I don't think just saying that you're lucky to have what you have is the only appropriate thing to do in that context. I don't think this inequality is normal, and it's precisely because I think a lot of people don't get the same financial comfort they deserve just like Phil, that I have strong personal expectations to how Dan and Phil manage the commercial aspect of their jobs, which have already made them wealthy to a degree that they can choose how much room they'll give to commercial motives.
But I also want to repeat that Phil not meeting my expectation in full doesn't mean I don't generally expect them or think he's doing a lot of good. My value judgement of people isn't based on a black-and-white "either you conform to everything I believe or you're a bad person" criterium.

[black_rat]

So I know this wasn't all directed at me (and I feel like some of the things you said do definitely not apply to me) so I just want to respond to some things I can say stuff about:

Look, I think it’s deeply unfair to accuse Phil of being complicit in Dan’s BS because he’s not saying or explaining anything. It’s not his place. If Dan doesn’t want him to speak about Dan’s abscence, what kind of person would Phil be to do it anyways?

I get that it feels unfair because Phil can't really do anything. But not doing anything means ignoring it and just acting like nothing has changed. And if you look at Phil's channel, it is kind of obvious that things have changed and that dan is absent. I know that it is Phil's channel, and some might think it is not dan's place to be on there at all, but over the years Phil has continuously invited dan to do videos with him on there. And now it has stopped and we don't know why. I am certain that it is because dan wants it that way, and not Phil. But that doesn't mean that Phil doesn't play part in communicating with us about his own channel. But I do get that it is pointless to be frustrated at that, because realisticly, Phil will not say anything.

And we really need to stop seeing them as one joint creator since they obviously, at this point, don’t wanna be that.

It isn't obvious to me at all. Last year was very joint. Does Phil still want to be joint? Does Dan want to be a creater? They spent their entire careers building something up that was at least to some degree joint. For me it is unclear if this is just a momentary pause, or something that is now the new normal. Do they want to separate there careers completly except for one video a year? Do they still wanna have a joint channel? I am someone who enjoys both dan's and Phil's solo content, so I do not have a problem if they want to do more of that. But I would still like for them to do joint stuff. Or adress that it is over.

So I’m asking: What do y’all want more?

I want liveshows to come back. Even once a month would be nice. But i suspect Phil doesn't like to do them anymore, or doesn't feel for them to be necessary. Maybe I would at least feel better if I had an explanation why he stopped doing them. (And I kind of disagree that people are not allowed to wish for "more" as everything has become less. Doesn't mean they have to do it. But i guess it depends to what degree people feel "entitled" to it.)

[Birdie]

(And I kind of disagree that people are not allowed to wish for "more" as everything has become less. Doesn't mean they have to do it. But i guess it depends to what degree people feel "entitled" to it.)

No, I agree with this, I worded it badly. Of course it's fine to want more and to express this wish on a forum like this, it's the entitlement I'm not okay with. But those are very different things! Same with saying when you don't like Phil's content and what you would personally like to change. It's not the same as demanding him to change his content. I hope that makes clearer what I meant!

It isn't obvious to me at all. Last year was very joint. Does Phil still want to be joint? Does Dan want to be a creater? They spent their entire careers building something up that was at least to some degree joint. For me it is unclear if this is just a momentary pause, or something that is now the new normal. Do they want to separate there careers completly except for one video a year? Do they still wanna have a joint channel? I am someone who enjoys both dan's and Phil's solo content, so I do not have a problem if they want to do more of that. But I would still like for them to do joint stuff. Or adress that it is over.

I guess there is no announcement because they might not know what's going to happen next themselves. At least that's the only reason that makes any sense to me. The bolded part is where it gets interesting. It's obvious to me that right now (!) they don't want to be seen as a joint Youtube brand because they have not produced that kind of content for four months now. If both of them still wanted to be the "Dan and Phil" brand and were happy with that brand's content, they would probably have uploaded something by now.

But I agree that it's not clear whose "decision" this was and what they actually want as seperate people. Especially what Phil wants is very hard to guess (and that's fine if he doesn't wanna say or can't say because it would say too much about Dan's current situation), except for the fact that he seems to want an active solo channel with wholesome, quirky content. But in the end, I'm just speculating like all of us. There might be factors we don't know about that would change everything. But they're not sharing those and that's, of course, fine, since it's probably deeply personal.

[Phantasy]

Ahoy.

I have some bad news - Daniel hasn't been on his official social media for almost a day. He hasn't even logged in or glanced at it.

This I can prove beyond any possible doubt.

How? Am I a spy? A psychic? No.

I'm just sitting here waiting for him to like Connor Franta's last insta.



I am patient Daniel. I will see you thirst away.

Haha...same. I think that whenever I see Connor or Troye or Miss Benny post something titillating... funny thing is he almost never likes the outright thirst posts... he likes every other queer artist post but when they take their shirt off all of a sudden he disappears... like I know you’re there Danny! Actually, I reckon it’s pretty sweet... maybe it’s his way of saying he’s only got eyes for one guy.

[flarequake]

Just chiming in in my tired state to say I’ve always loved that gif and I’d love to be able to open one of those chairs with one hand like that.

[alittledizzy]

There might be factors we don't know about that would change everything. But they're not sharing those and that's, of course, fine, since it's probably deeply personal.

I'm inclined to think that this has a lot to do with it. I've spent a lot of time over this hiatus musing about how they handle revealing personal stuff, and to be honest the conclusion I come to most often is: they don't. And in the past, I think most of the time that's been alright, it's been stuff we didn't need to know. Dan's depression is a big one. They were always that way about vacations with Wirrow and Bryony - we'd eventually know they were going somewhere, maybe not until they were already there. We'd eventually know who they were with, but they never just came out and said it. Phil lost a grandparent some time in 2017, for another example; he posted a pic with her at Christmas and then only months and months later did he mention only having one grandparent left. They do it every time they go North together, almost. I'm still surprised they voluntarily told us that Phil was in the hospital last year, tbh.

I'm also not saying I think that the hiatus is because of any dramatic personal reason, or necessarily a negative one. There could be fantastic stuff going on behind the scenes in their lives that they'd be equally unlikely to share until they're ready or feel like a specific sort of transitory phase is over. There's a lot of room for fans to argue that Dan and Phil could be telling us more, and that's true, but if it turns out that eventually we find out the reason for the hiatus was just personal shit happening that they didn't feel a responsibility to communicate more about than "there's a hiatus, we're not sure how long it'll last" and they don't actually feel all that torn up about keeping us in the dark, I won't be surprised.

[jesp]

Just a reminder to folks that quoting the person you're responding to is really helpful to other people reading, especially now the mention function isn't available. I myself find it a little difficult to follow the conversation when I'm skimming through. No need to put any quotes under a spoiler either.

[plinthofmylife]

To make comments from 2 pages back I loved Phil's last video. It had true Jenna Marbles energy and my only wish, as other people have mentioned, was that he had more dramatic pauses. I don't know what Dan wants as a creator, but I do actually really wish that Phil would keep doing more of the kinds of videos he likes, and let Dan play "Julien" to Phil's "Jenna". Behind-the-camera-commentary, dramatic zoom-ins. It'd be great. Let Phil be the star on his channel (again) but the back and forth and Dan playing the straight man (so to speak) to Phil's funny man is always good.

Oh no, maybe me just miss Dan. That's not where I wanted it to go.


***

My usual gratuitous "this is my job so I have some insight" stuff: As a creator who's pretty stuck right now on one genre of making things (but has still been putting out certain content as contractually obligated) but has a big merch launch next week, I had to step away because I always have trouble asking my audience to buy stuff, even though it literally pays my bills and pays my staff and I'm always very proud of the stuff we make. The conversation was really hard for me based on my own mental state a week before a launch to see other people dissect Phil just trying to make a living and make me question my own stuff. Also really proud of him for the new tshirt sourcing! Anyway, that's why I didn't chime in like normal. Also I have a launch in a week so I'm a hot mess.

[TuxedoSam]

Plinthofmylife wait who are you on youtube?

[noodlebum]

The conversation was really hard for me based on my own mental state a week before a launch to see other people dissect Phil just trying to make a living and make me question my own stuff. Also really proud of him for the new tshirt sourcing! Anyway, that's why I didn't chime in like normal. Also I have a launch in a week so I'm a hot mess.

Just wanted to say good luck for your launch! I don't know who you are off of this forum, but am pleased you are (I hope) doing well with your channel/brand. I have no problem with people doing merch - it's there for people who wish to buy it, no one has to if they don't want to, and I can imagine it's fun to be creative, make decisions on design etc. but stressful too!!

[Stakhanov]

Yes best of luck with your launch and merch! I'm guessing you haven't got a net worth well into the millions of pounds so it's a totally different situation and i hope a enough people will support you, in all kinds of ways, so you're able to do the things you do.

[fancybum]

Yes best of luck with your launch and merch! I'm guessing you haven't got a net worth well into the millions of pounds so it's a totally different situation and i hope a enough people will support you, in all kinds of ways, so you're able to do the things you do.

Yes good luck with everything, but also don’t forget to stop as soon as you hit that arbitrary earning limit as decided by internet commenters you filthy capitalist swine.

[Stakhanov]

Harsh words! And i thought i was being strict by suggesting that in some contexts creators should take a critical look at which commercial tactics they apply

[Ablissa]

Yes best of luck with your launch and merch! I'm guessing you haven't got a net worth well into the millions of pounds so it's a totally different situation and i hope a enough people will support you, in all kinds of ways, so you're able to do the things you do.

Yes good luck with everything, but also don’t forget to stop as soon as you hit that arbitrary earning limit as decided by internet commenters you filthy capitalist swine.

Very good point. No one should be allowed to make too much money off their jobs. Youtubers should work for free in order to avoid offending random internet strangers.
I'm now going to set all my Dan and Phil merch on fire to protest capitalism.

[plinthofmylife]

Plinthofmylife wait who are you on youtube?

COUGH COUGH I won't tell I'm mainly on broadcast radio/podcast but also have a youtube channel that has a tiny amount of subs. but I try to keep my phan-trash life off my main

Don't worry, I'm in the finance niche so I'm sure that people that don't like capitalism already hate me even though my net worth is nowhere near DNP. (I do think it's absurd to say that someone should sell nothing once they've hit some arbitrary net worth amount that we don't actually know.)

[Catallena]

Not that people aren't allowed to be critical of the business practices of rich YouTubers, but Phil is honestly one of the more ethical ones. His sales pitch didn't even do the manipulative 'buy this merch to be a true philly' thing that many others do. All it was in that video was Phil being proud of the merch, showing it off, told us where to buy it if we want it. As long as he keeps putting work in his merch and isn't sponning tummy tea on Instagram, he's really not the one you wanna go after in some grand statement against wealth in out capitalist society. Maybe I'd have more of a problem with it if Phil was one of those influencers who constantly show off their wealth by buying expensive cars, gadgets and clothing. But 95% of his wardrobe is Topman and the most frivolous spending he does is shopping therapy on Firebox.

Let Capita£ester live tbh. Plenty of worse rich people to eat instead.

[alittledizzy]

[autumnhearth]

Well at least there is food and dogs in there. Is the image Chris Evans? It comes out tomorrow, but I’m not that excited. I enjoy most of the individual Marvel movies, but the ensemble ones are too big and busy for me. I hope they enjoy it though.

[Ataraxia25]

As I'm not a fan of Marvel, I understand the frenzy but I don't care
But I hope d&p and every Marvel fan on this forum can watch it and be spoiler-free

[obsessivelymoody]

Loving the Chris Evans and the dogs and food amongst it all. It's my favourite when Phil does subtle thirsty tweets like that. Not entirely pleased that he managed to slip that through my giant list of muted words, that doesn't bode well for me and spoilers (though....knowing marvel's formulaic kind of story telling I'm sure I can work out how this film is going to end lol), but I hope those two enjoy the movie together I wonder if they're going with Bryony...

[sapienveneficus]

I wanted to give my two cents in this latest round of merch discussion, If you've had your fill, don't worry, I've put my rambly thoughts below the spoiler line.

First off, I don't begrudge Phil or the any of the IRL Digital employees a chance to earn a living. That's not what I'm trying to say, and reading the posts above, I don't think that's what anyone's trying to say.

Now that that's out of the way, here's where I come down in all of this. Did I seriously side-eye Dan when his magical reappearance on social media coincided with the Dan and Phil shop sale? Not at first. But when he promptly disappeared again, I put two and two together. That definitely had me feeling a certain kind of way towards him. I still like him and await his return, but he lost a few points in my book pulling a cheap stunt like that (well that and his April Fools "prank").

But this conversation hasn't been about Dan, it's been about Phil and his new merch. So I'll stick to that. Now, two things are true about Phil as a content creator in 2019. First, he's creating more content than Dan. Though, let's be real, it'd be hard to create less. Second, Phil is creating far less solo content than he has in recent years. He's still putting out videos on his main channel, but the timing varies and isn't impressive. It was every 10-14 days, but the gap between his last 2 videos was a month so, who knows? Let's run the numbers: there have been 114 days in 2019 (wow, time flies!). Phil has posted 7 videos which averages out to a 16.29 day gap between videos. So that's pretty consistent with last year's posting pattern I think. What's missing? Well, putting aside from the obvious (joint content), Phil's stopped doing liveshows and is posting far less on social media. So he's doing less on his own and nothing with Dan.

Does that mean he can't release merch? No, he can do whatever he likes. There's clearly still a market for it, and he has employees (and family members) who depend on that revenue. But I would think that if he wanted to keep an engaged audience (the kind that buys merch) he'd be doing a bit more. And yes, I've seen the comments saying that anyone who expects more from Phil is just being entitled, but YouTube is Phil's career (at least, it is at the moment). If this is a path he wants to keep treading, he needs to be putting more into it. I'd love to see the return of solo liveshows, daily instastories, and maybe even a regular posting schedule (gasp!). The time he put into his main channel last year (or even the past couple of years) wasn't a problem because it was a fraction of his total output as a creator. But since joint content (the bulk of his work over the past few years) has ceased, he has more time to devote to his channel while still creating that much sought after work-life balance.

Whereas before, spon was something small (blink and you'll miss it)snuck in amid a sea of content or the catalyst for a truly hilarious video (their Crunchrull ads were a thing of beauty!). Now that dynamic has completely changed. Phil only seems to put out content when he wants to sell us something. That's the big difference in my opinion, and it's the difference that's making me feel less than positive towards this latest merch line.

Jumping on the newest topic, I'm not a marvel fan (I've seen exactly 0 of those movies) but I hope this latest one turns out to be everything they hope it will be.