Dan & Phil Part 86: here, queer & full of existential fear

Our two favourite full time internet nerds who never go outside!
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knq
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If fanfiction is weird normal seems oppressively boring.
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knq wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:55 pm
I feel like Dan recently mentioned something else as being revenge for the philussy cake, which makes me think these photos might have been from then. I don't remember when/what it was though. I feel like Bryony's garden has bamboo?

I think you might be talking about this tweet: Which suggests that the cake photos were taken before his coming out video was published, right? Looks like he might have already felt the relief!

PS: yes, another IBD member who has risen from the grave here :garbage:
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DnP1991
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spaceguitar wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:27 am I was and still am so happy for Dan.
Is anyone else feeling anxious about the fate of the Phandom though? The shitstorm over the ImAlexx video made me anxious.
Yeah, I'm feeling pretty anxious about it too. I won't touch that video with a ten foot pole. Outsiders trying to look into fandoms is not my kink. They tend to have no idea what they are actually talking about.

I also saw this https://www.reddit.com/r/trashy/comment ... ls_coming/ on r/trashy on reddit which actually made my chest seize when I saw it. Title "People who ignore the point of Dan Howell's coming out video and focus solely on a creepy ship" (I haven't seen anyone ask when Phil is making a coming out video) I wasn't ever imagining Dan's coming out to be this big, and it's kind of moved Dan into the bigger sphere, rather than our own medium sized fandom corner, which is stressful. Also, I don't think that liking the idea of two men who clearly have a deep and close connection together is creepy.
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DnP1991
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dc34 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:39 am
Weird thing thats happened bc of this video, this obsession with not mentioning phan and not mentioning phil in relation to dan. I had someone angry at me cause I said dan and phil were soulmates, and how dare i make this about phan when dan literally says it in the video that their soulmates. Dan admits to his relationship with phil being " more than romantic", these are things that are mentioned so why is it wrong to talk about. The intentions are nice I guess, but the fake wokness and need to act morally superior is annoying me. The only thing I can compare it to is when phannies wouldn't talk about adrian or get mad at people for talking about him when the dude was making vegan videos on youtube. Its there, we can talk about it, people, and by this i mainly me non phandom members, need to stop acting like its taboo and insinuating being happy for dan and phil's relationship is the same as fetishizing.

Anywho, another big downside now is the fact that many fan artists and fan fic writers are getting attacked and that upsets me. A big reason the phandom is still alive and kicking even after a year long hiatus from one half of this duo is bc of the amazing people in this community who are producing content when dan and phil weren't. So, I just want to say a thanks and an appreciation to all of you who have contributed to the phandom through your art :platonic:
Yeah, I'm confused as to how things have changed. I've never been one to openly speculate about Dan and Phil's relationship and if it is romantic or not, I like to keep the fourth wall intact and I'm pretty paranoid about them seeing anything. But I saw several tweets saying that even mentioning Phil around Dan is disrespectful? And I make sure I'm following 18+ people only, so it's not like these were kids. I've also seen some talk about fanfiction being disrespectful, and it being wrong to consume it now that Dan has made this video, and I've never been this emoticon more :shrug: :shrug:
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Aside from the fact that Dan and Phil have never said anything against snippy fanworks about them, and literally wrote and published their own fanfictions and commissioned someone to do vaguely snippy manga of them, fandoms literally dont survive without art and fic. Real people or not, this fandom would immediately fizzle out without art and fanfic. That's just how it goes, I've seen it happen before.
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knq
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DnP1991 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:48 am
I also saw this https://www.reddit.com/r/trashy/comment ... ls_coming/ on r/trashy on reddit which actually made my chest seize when I saw it. Title "People who ignore the point of Dan Howell's coming out video and focus solely on a creepy ship" (I haven't seen anyone ask when Phil is making a coming out video) I wasn't ever imagining Dan's coming out to be this big, and it's kind of moved Dan into the bigger sphere, rather than our own medium sized fandom corner, which is stressful. Also, I don't think that liking the idea of two men who clearly have a deep and close connection together is creepy.
Dan and Phil: true best friends, companions through life, actual soulmates

Random redditor: creepy ship

:roll: There’s obviously so much more work to be done in changing the way society talks about queer people and our relationships. But Rome wasn’t built in a day so imma go back to watching Basically I’m Gay and Dan’s Twitter feed of rainbow joy for now because I’m so proud and happy for him and this deserves to be a happy time.

This made me emotional in a nice way so I’ll leave it here:
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anathema wrote:I partly agree with you. Yes, Dan is a public figure, and along with that comes speculation. Whether or not it's right, it's the world we live in, and it's to be expected if you're in the public eye. However, I think what Dan was bothered by were the people who were trying to dig into his personal life, who tried to find any proof they could of his sexuality and him being romantically involved with Phil. But the thing is, because he actually is gay and is with Phil, that means there was actually something there to uncover. It means that had someone been successful in finding definitive proof, they would have been outing him.
I agree. In my opinion there are worlds between speculating about what they have willingly shared about themselves, like when Dan started hinting at being attracted to men, and trying to uncover the stuff they have not willingly shared or have asked us not to share. (And before someone brings it up, I was never a big fan of sharing a certain video for instance because they've made it 100% clear it wasn't supposed to be on the internet and they didn't want it shared.) I have no opinion on fanfiction because I never got into it at all but at this point I think if Dan had meant fanfiction with what he said in the video, he would have said so.

Thing is, the phandom has mellowed a lot in the last few years. There was a time after their channels blew up when certain people would have given their right arm to uncover some secret truth they felt entitled to, it was honestly ugly to watch. I'm pretty sure that's what Dan was talking about. It's not the whole phandom and it never was but we can't pretend like this didn't happen in 2013/14 and that the "crazy phannie" thing isn't grounded in some truth. So if Dan is tired of all of it, even the speculation, I get it, especially considering he was a closeted gay man who didn't want to be out and had thousands of people try and dig into his personal life to uncover the one secret he wanted to keep private.

I'm very happy that the phandom's overall reaction to his coming out was so positive and for the most part respectful but I do think it would have looked very different a few years ago and Dan knows that, obviously. But I think he also knows it's different now so I wouldn't pay much mind to people going off about tangents about "creepy ships" and "stupid fangirls who only care about their ship". We know that's not what the phandom is in 2019, it's certainly not what we are on this website, and I'm pretty sure Dan knows too.

I also think these people don't consider how many of us are actually queer ourselves. "They only care about their ship because they wanna fetishise these guys" is so tired because in 2019 this phandom consists mainly of LGBTQ people and informed allies and if there's anything that makes me mad it's that people don't see that 90% of the reaction to Dan's coming out was queer people (and allies) being happy for him and just feeling seen and validated by their favourite Youtuber. So in that sense: :wavingflag:. Let 'em talk, it doesn't really matter.

EDIT: Watch me be extra active the next few days so I don't have to be philussy for too long, omg.
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Catallena
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The backlash against the phandom from people who think they're morally superior for... idk not making obvious connections about relationships makes me very happy to just live in my IDB and Twitter bubble. Because this whole thing is starting to remind me of a few years ago when even non invasive Phan blogs would get anon hate breathing. I thought we moved on from that (from both sides of the spectrum) but I guess people just can resist sharing a bad hot take on a phandom they haven't even taken notice of in years. I see you, kpop converts who were bashing D&P just last week for being part of their 'cringe phase in 2014' :roll:

imo if someone has problems with certain fanworks, it's their choice to just... not consume those works. It's that simple. Everyone has different levels of things they're comfortable with and that's fine. To me, there's a clear difference between the characters in RPF and the actual people. And yes I say characters, because in the end that's how those 'real people' are written in most fic I've read. If that's something you see differently, cool. :shrug:

But don't bully creators or consumers. Dan and Phil have always encouraged the phandom's creativity in all ways, they just don't need to see certain things. And pretty much every creator of NSFW works I know doesn't want them to see their work. It's always been immature shitheads who harassed D&P (and THAT it what Dan was talking about in his video, the people who actually tried to force him into coming out) sometimes even by stealing the work of those creators, and it's always been something most people disapproved of. The difference is that supporters of those fanworks disapproved of the person who spread it without permission, while the moral high grounders just straight up bullied the person whose work was stolen and shown in one of the Tumblr videos and made her delete her blogs out of shame. These people ain't shit.

Now if you'll excuse me I'll be in my editing cave working on my first creative work in years since I stopped making AMVs.
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Katka wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:01 pm I also think these people don't consider how many of us are actually queer ourselves. "They only care about their ship because they wanna fetishise these guys" is so tired because in 2019 this phandom consists mainly of LGBTQ people and informed allies and if there's anything that makes me mad it's that people don't see that 90% of the reaction to Dan's coming out was queer people (and allies) being happy for him and just feeling seen and validated by their favourite Youtuber. So in that sense: :wavingflag:. Let 'em talk, it doesn't really matter.
I agree with this too, I don't think people realise we aren't all straight white female teenagers (not that there's anything wrong with having these traits and being a fan too, but we're more diverse than that). Some people are behind with the times.
Dan and Phil noticed how diverse their audience was during last years tour as they talked about it in the mukbang- at least the age thing they definitely did.
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In the context of Dan and Phil I think the problem was (and is) people trying to gain access to their private lives when they haven’t been granted permission to access them. If all the phandom ever did was draw pictures and write (clearly labelled fictional) stories about them in the corners of the internet deigned for that stuff then I really do believe there wouldn't be a problem. It's people stepping outside of fiction and trying to find out and "prove" what's going on in their real lives where the problem lies.

And I say this as a person who will also admit enjoying and partaking in discussion when someone uses their stalker/crazy observational skills to figure out something D&P haven't chose to share like whether they have two different apartments or where a picture was taken etc. So yes I'm bad and enjoy that stuff but I also admit I think it's where the problem lies and not with creative people making stuff they label as fictional.
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alittledizzy
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This is more commenting on the side of people in phandom policing phandom than that guy's video, but I think what I'm seeing right now is a lot of people seeing Dan talk about what the formation of a fandom around him in 2011 felt like and then reacting with guilt over an era they (mostly) weren't a part of and out of defensiveness for a version of Dan that doesn't exist anymore.

Dan said it right in his video. Communities of people formed to talk about him. It’s okay that he thought it was weird. To be the person at the center of that surely would be. It’s been eight years and he understands it a whole lot better himself right now I’m pretty damn sure. Look at Bryony; even if he didn’t understand it from the POV of being on a wavelength with his fans, their literal irl best friend is also in a fandom for real people.

I understand it was really impactful for people to hear what fandom did to him in 2011, but we can’t fix crimes of the past. Also remember what those crimes were: pictures from his facebook circulated of him and his former friends/girlfriend, people tried to stalk out his brother, people were screenshotting his old (pre-youtube) social media. None of those are fixable right now. Being guilty over something you (probably) weren’t a part of won’t help Dan of 2019. And fanfiction wasn't even really a thing in 2011 in terms of phan? Not that I feel like it really needs to be said here, but it wasn't fanworks he was talking about.

Today, in 2019, fandom already self-polices things that go too far. Look at this forum, even - our rules are formed around keeping the discussion open and free but within the boundaries of what Dan and Phil shared themselves and things that will not invade their privacy. Outside of actual trolls, I'm very content with the level of self-restraint this fandom has with privacy invasion.

And I'll stand firm on the point that discussing things Dan or Phil openly and purposefully shared is not across the line. In 2011, Dan - in his own words - was coming out of a period of self-acceptance. The things he said within that period of self-acceptance were less than two years old but also... public. They were posted publicly. Formsprings were answers to fans and people that liked his videos. Daily booth was a public social media account in which he was so actively advertising that he was celebrating follower milestones. I'm not mad at fans from 2011 reading posts less than two years old and being curious. It fucked Dan up, and that's awful, but those fans didn't know. Because Dan - as was the point in his video - wasn't ready to share why it was so hard for him when he stopped feeling accepting of himself. Regretting what you publicly shared is a really shitty place to be in but regret can't make people un-know things.

Human nature is conversation and speculation and curiosity. Fandom, in particular, draws obsessive personalities. That’s not actually a bad thing, imo. People with the sort of personality like that tend to be sharp, have fantastic memories, problem solvers who want to approach situations actively and not passively, good at managing a lot of information, and perceptive. In a lot of facets of life those are highly sought after qualities. But being unable to passively consume things isn’t something you turn on and off. So people who approach fandom as a hobby but prefer immersive hobbies will, by and large, be the sort of people who find a lot of appeal in speculating and analyzing and discussing. I'm so proud of Dan for putting this video out and drawing his lines about what he will and won't share, but to me that doesn't preclude speculation about his life now in 2019 - he said he takes it as a compliment. He gets it. He's not naive. He understands why they're special. It just means that he's making sure we understand we're not getting answers from him, and I respect that totally.

Basically, and I'm paraphrasing this from someone's post and I can't remember who right now because so many fantastic posts have crossed my dash: nothing that's wrong today wasn't wrong before the video, and nothing that was okay before the video isn't okay now.

(also just slipping back into to add: drawing lines about what you personally feel comfortable with is fine! it's just projecting those onto dan and then pretending what you projected onto dan is an accurate moral judgement of other people is the nope for me)
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nephilimcat wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:37 am I'm not saying this as if I've never participated in this kind of behaviour. I've looked at phanart, I've watched phanvids, I've speculated about their private lives. The only thing I never really felt comfortable with were phanfics. But a while ago I started to disagree with my own behaviour, which is one of the many reasons I stopped posting here. Idk, I think it's fine to draw them in general or to make fanvideos, but fanfics and smutty drawings and digging into their personal life in any way ... don't you think that's incredibly invasive and wrong even if they don't ever see it?

I mean, you could argue that this forum existing is in itself invasive. I think partially it is, some topics discussed (again not claiming I have never participated myself) I find very invasive but some discussions are very great too and not invasive at all. That's why I came back after Dan's coming out video, because it's nice to see people's thoughts, personal experiences and support, especially as a queer person myself. But like, we should probably only discuss videos and things openly shared and not stuff like flat layouts or relationship status.

I just think we should all think twice if what we're publishing could be a bit invasive and if in doubt, rather not post it. Or think to ourselves: if Dan/Phil/both saw this, how would I feel? I personally am not going to post anything anymore that I would be embarrassed if they read it.

I'm also a hypocrite because I'll likely still read some of the more invasive discussions with great interest while feeling guilty :indepthbaths:
This post really sums up a lot of my moral dilemmas of the phandom. There's days I think really hard which posts I like on tumblr, and then there's days I post things myself that would made me cringe if I thought about it too much. Same goes for this forum, which is why you see me here whenever I stop caring. For a long time now I've felt weird liking shippy fanart, because even if we know...we don't know (if that makes sense). Fanfics on the otherhand... like Catallena said, reading them doesn't necessarily feel like reading about Dan and Phil. With au's especially, they're just stories whose characters happen to be tall boys with dark hair, but with their own world and own problems.

I feel like "if Dan or Phil saw this, how would I feel" is a good measurement of these things. Knowing they like their lol's I think it's okay to push boundaries, just not too far.

So to sum up, I'm also a hypocrite who doesn't think discussing about flat layouts is okay, but that doesn't stop me reading those posts. But I'm glad you brought these things up, sometimes I feel like this kind of discussion is almost forbidden here. :shrug:
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forgive me this has nothing to do with the current topic going on but i'm so interested in dan's creative process especially all the stuff that goes into the video before he even sets up his lights and camera. i want to know so much more about his writing process. he's got to, at the very least, outline it all out and probably wrote out a lot of what he was going to say. does anyone have any idea how many pages a 45 min video would take to write out? does he have phil (or someone else) read through the script before even filming or does phil only see it once it's filmed? and obviously he talked to phil extensively about the whole video topic beforehand so that's not what i'm wondering about.

and it's been commented on already about the way dan talks about the very serious topics but balances it with humor but i have to say again just how funny dan really is. his comedic timing was perfect in this video. it all felt more real and personable that was easy to relate to. he makes me laugh every time i watch it. and all of that makes me wonder how much of his jokes were written and if any were ad libs. i'm just so curious about his creative process.

i keep thinking about how much work went into this 'masterpiece' (thanks phil) and it makes my heart swell even more him. this video really is something to be proud of amongst all the other pride i imagine dan is feeling.
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A very belated reaction to Dan’s video, because I’m still figuring out my thoughts, but I’d really like to share it, so please bear with me, I have literally no other place for talking about Dan&Phil apart from this forum (thank you again btw to all of you here, it’s a great community even if I can’t really consider myself a part of it, because it’s always hard for me to participate in things, and also, as many have said already, it’s always so nice to see people come back, especially when everyone is sharing their wonderful personal stories and reactions, love to y’all <3 ). In no particular order:
  • The realisation that the dramatic, oversharing, thirsty, if also attention seeking, but not only, Dan from those old deleted tweets, dailybooths etc. has always been very real, and now he can be again (only with less rape jokes and more politics maybe). I’ve just re-read a bunch of old stuff and it makes me so sad that he felt like he had to hide again – and on the internet, too, when it was one of the first places where he could be himself, this wonderful place that allowed him to finally feel accepted, meet his best friend/soulmate and earn a living doing what he likes. Fuck homophobia, seriously, and I don’t blame people who went digging in 2011 or even children who were bullying Dan at school (I do a little), I blame society for homophobia, for celebrity culture and for not teaching children enough about privacy and how sex and gender work.
  • Kudos to Phil for his tweet, but also, like, huge respect for supporting and helping Dan throughout the years. I won’t get into my many thoughts and feelings on the subject, because it’ll be too long and basically, all of it would be speculation, and I guess, we aren’t doing it anymore ;) but, man. What a great guy, Phil Lester, love him :love2:
  • More on the subject of the latest discussion, I thought, after watching the video, that I won’t be reading fanfiction about deppy anymore, that it would somehow feel uncomfortable. First thing I did this morning? Saw an AO3 update and read a newly written non AU fic. One that actually helped me think more about how things will be after Dan’s coming out and by thinking about that, also think about my own issues as a mostly closeted (for multiple reasons) gay woman, for whom any coming out video is difficult to watch, because being out still feels like an alternative reality that would never be part of my life. Fanworks are great for the soul.
  • Whatever they are both planning on doing next with their respective careers, I am very proud of them, especially after how uncertain of everything I was after watching II last year. I actually think that this hiatus has been a good thing for everybody (once again, kudos to Phil for keeping things alive on the youtuber side of this relationship, as well as to all the people still in phandom on the other side). Putting aside the content of Dan's video for a moment, I also really liked how it was executed. For my taste, it was a bit waffly when he talked about labels, but, to be fair, it's a very difficult topic, there's no consensus on it, it was a part of much bigger video, and it looks like he's still figuring stuff out about himself, so, all in all, great job nonetheless. Here's to the bright queer future.
:prideheart2:
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alittledizzy wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:56 pm
YAY Stephen!! I was waiting for some kind of reply from him. :prideflag: :pride:

He's still working with RTÉ by the way, he's a DJ for 2fm, a national pop music station. It's always been odd for me to connect him with DnP as I grew up with him presenting TwoTube after school on RTÉ 2, memories..... :D
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Wow, looks like a few leaps of logic were made from Dan's coming out to the morality of RPF (??). And the long, chequered history of "Other YouTubers' Cold Takes on DnP/Name-dropping Them For Views" has a new chapter. Shoulda seen this coming.
As I see it, Dan's in a far better place now, and his video was less about how we should treat him in the future and more about accepting others, and making sure no one's journey has to be the rocky road his was. Obviously we shouldn't disrespect him, but he seemed to be using his platform to share his story and spread positive messaging, not drawing sudden new lines banning things they were clearly okay with on Wednesday. I need a coffee.
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Catallena wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:05 pm And pretty much every creator of NSFW works I know doesn't want them to see their work. It's always been immature shitheads who harassed D&P (and THAT it what Dan was talking about in his video, the people who actually tried to force him into coming out) sometimes even by stealing the work of those creators, and it's always been something most people disapproved of. The difference is that supporters of those fanworks disapproved of the person who spread it without permission, while the moral high grounders just straight up bullied the person whose work was stolen and shown in one of the Tumblr videos and made her delete her blogs out of shame. These people ain't shit.
1000000% agree, this this this.
alittledizzy wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:28 pm And I'll stand firm on the point that discussing things Dan or Phil openly and purposefully shared is not across the line. In 2011, Dan - in his own words - was coming out of a period of self-acceptance. The things he said within that period of self-acceptance were less than two years old but also... public. They were posted publicly. Formsprings were answers to fans and people that liked his videos. Daily booth was a public social media account in which he was so actively advertising that he was celebrating follower milestones. I'm not mad at fans from 2011 reading posts less than two years old and being curious. It fucked Dan up, and that's awful, but those fans didn't know. Because Dan - as was the point in his video - wasn't ready to share why it was so hard for him when he stopped feeling accepting of himself. Regretting what you publicly shared is a really shitty place to be in but regret can't make people un-know things.
Yes Dizzy this exactly is what I'm saying. I think it's easy for people who joined the fandom post-2012 to see it as going into the deep dark corners of the internet to find these revealing posts, but in truth it was public and easily accessible before Dan took it all down. That's what I was trying to convey in my first post about this in this thread, I was there when it was public and it was honestly easy to find. So it's not like from the start it was deleted and we were passing it around in documents literally entitled drug deal. there was a time where it wasn't secret, so i really don't see a problem with discussing something public. it just ended up becoming way bigger than Dan ever imagined, especially with the whole .... glitch thing.... which i think even at the time, the phandom was pretty good at keeping secret. it was hardly ever posted publicly and if it was, the phandom itself asked the person to take it down. of course it was getting spread, and Dan and everyone knew that, but we at least tried to keep it under wraps. that's more than anyone would ever do for a mainstream celebrity.

Also Dizzy I'd like to ask you what you make of the video description where dan says this is just the beginning and he'll be talking more about these things. I've seen you say a few times that you don't believe we'll be getting anything more on this, but I don't agree with that since I interpret the video description to say that we'll be getting more, maybe even soon. What do you think?
alien wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:48 pm forgive me this has nothing to do with the current topic going on but i'm so interested in dan's creative process especially all the stuff that goes into the video before he even sets up his lights and camera. i want to know so much more about his writing process. he's got to, at the very least, outline it all out and probably wrote out a lot of what he was going to say. does anyone have any idea how many pages a 45 min video would take to write out? does he have phil (or someone else) read through the script before even filming or does phil only see it once it's filmed? and obviously he talked to phil extensively about the whole video topic beforehand so that's not what i'm wondering about.
I was thinking about this too! I can only imagine it took him a lot of rehearsing/takes to get to a place where he can read the script while also acting so deliberately. To me, not only the words were purposeful but also how he delivered them. I was kind of surprised to see him talk about such personal things without choking up or crying at any point, and to me that goes to show that he must have practiced this a lot to almost emotionally remove himself from it so he could deliver it clearly. Totally guessing here but it seems that way to me. Also how the fuck did he do the lighting!? i'm not a film person but the whole visual composition of the video is SO COOL AAA
coffeepenguin wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:29 pm
  • Kudos to Phil for his tweet, but also, like, huge respect for supporting and helping Dan throughout the years. I won’t get into my many thoughts and feelings on the subject, because it’ll be too long and basically, all of it would be speculation, and I guess, we aren’t doing it anymore ;) but, man. What a great guy, Phil Lester, love him :love2:
YES dan has been through so much and phil has been there by his side through ten years of it, and it just blows my mind and warms my heart and i have SO MUCH respect for both dan and phil here, even more respect than i had before, because these two have truly been through so much and are still here going so strong ten years later it literally gives me so much hope in humanity and love and everything....unless of course, dan and phil are holograms and dont actually exist in truth :\ too good to be true :\

coffeepenguin wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:29 pmFor my taste, it was a bit waffly when he talked about labels, but, to be fair, it's a very difficult topic, there's no consensus on it, it was a part of much bigger video, and it looks like he's still figuring stuff out about himself, so, all in all, great job nonetheless. Here's to the bright queer future.
:prideheart2:
I agree it was a little waffely, but the more I watch and think about it, he somehow managed to ramble on and express his opinions without actually making any controversial or offensive statements. Which honestly is difficult to do, as he touched on. So I think it's really cool/honorable that he managed to paint such an accurate picture of the state of the lgbtq+ community right now without actually saying anything negative, even though he touched on some cons or things that he found to be cons. Maybe other people took issue with something he said but to me it all seemed very respectful and I think that's so cool.
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I think the thing that makes people uncomfortable about RPF (not just DnP, but also fans who feel an odd squirm of guilt when participating, and yes, I am @ing myself here) is just the fact that it involves appropriating the narratives of real-life people. One problem I had when I first started watching Dan and Phil was that I began to imagine them as characters I can use, which is a bit weird as they, as people, were not invented for public consumption.

I realize that when you make personality-based content, it is inevitable that you are going to present yourself as a character. Dan and Phil on camera are not exactly the same people as they are in person, but the reason the question of "is RPF okay" is so confusing and complicated is because the line between the character and the person is not distinct. I see both sides of the issue. I don't think people are bad for reading or consuming fanfiction (god knows I've consumed my fair share), but I think it's important to realize that even if the people in question say they're okay with it, outside of that it does present opportunities for the consumers to confuse the fanfiction ideals of people with the actual reality of their real-life personness. I think this can be harmful in a more subconscious sense. I can't help but be wary of anything that can sway us to imagine people as anything more or less than people.

All that being said, the fact that DnP have said they are okay with fanfiction, have partaken themselves, and have by now started to come to terms with the fact that there are millions of versions of them that exist within the minds of their millions of viewers, I don't think it is technically immoral to participate in this, as long as people remain mindful, don't bug DnP with sexual fantasies, and make sure to recognize that the versions of DnP which exist within our minds will never be fully accurate as they are private people with their own lives we know nothing about.

I think RPF is about as morally gray and neutral as you can get in a fandom space. It can be bad, it can be good. It can be kind of weird, it can be a normal thing that inevitably arises (and that I've come to enjoy in spite of myself). It can be a way to dehumanize imagined ideas of a person, it can be a wonderful way to create content during a drought. Why not both?

A lot of this is just my classic desperate plea of wHy CaN't We AlL jUsT gEt AlOnG. I guess I just think there's room for nuance and varying opinions, and I don't think anyone's a bad person or stupid or an exploitative crazy demon fan for disagreeing with me. Lmao sorry I'm kind of just saying what everyone's saying at this point
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alittledizzy
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eevee wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:15 pmAlso Dizzy I'd like to ask you what you make of the video description where dan says this is just the beginning and he'll be talking more about these things. I've seen you say a few times that you don't believe we'll be getting anything more on this, but I don't agree with that since I interpret the video description to say that we'll be getting more, maybe even soon. What do you think?
Oh I definitely think he'll be speaking more on his sexuality and sexuality in general!! And I'm very excited for it. When I say I don't think we'll be getting more I mean specifically about his and Phil's relationship. I don't think they're gonna be making any 'storytime: our first kiss' videos etc soon, I think anything more we do glean about them will probably come in thee same way the information was delivered in this video. It'll be in context of a bigger point and probably as simplistic as possible.
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alittledizzy wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:46 pm Oh I definitely think he'll be speaking more on his sexuality and sexuality in general!! And I'm very excited for it. When I say I don't think we'll be getting more I mean specifically about his and Phil's relationship. I don't think they're gonna be making any 'storytime: our first kiss' videos etc soon, I think anything more we do glean about them will probably come in thee same way the information was delivered in this video. It'll be in context of a bigger point and probably as simplistic as possible.
Oh I see. I do think he means about him and phil because of this part specifically:
"It scratched the surface of several things I could have gone into more detail about, but the purpose of this was to be ..reasonably concise and above all entertaining. In the future, in the right places, I will surely talk much more about everything touched on in this video and more."

He isn't saying I'll be talking more about this one topic, he says i'll be talking more about everything and more. So I'm really hoping/thinking that means him and Phil! Of course if it doesn't that's okay. but I'd just love to hear more about this wonderful love story, you know?
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alittledizzy
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eevee wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:18 pm
alittledizzy wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:46 pm Oh I definitely think he'll be speaking more on his sexuality and sexuality in general!! And I'm very excited for it. When I say I don't think we'll be getting more I mean specifically about his and Phil's relationship. I don't think they're gonna be making any 'storytime: our first kiss' videos etc soon, I think anything more we do glean about them will probably come in thee same way the information was delivered in this video. It'll be in context of a bigger point and probably as simplistic as possible.
Oh I see. I do think he means about him and phil because of this part specifically:
"It scratched the surface of several things I could have gone into more detail about, but the purpose of this was to be ..reasonably concise and above all entertaining. In the future, in the right places, I will surely talk much more about everything touched on in this video and more."

He isn't saying I'll be talking more about this one topic, he says i'll be talking more about everything and more. So I'm really hoping/thinking that means him and Phil! Of course if it doesn't that's okay. but I'd just love to hear more about this wonderful love story, you know?
Ooh, I hadn't thought about it like that. I mean, I would be the first person in line to hear more about that, tbh, so I'd absolutely love to be wrong!!
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It's been interesting to read takes the last few days since the video, especially with seeing everything with a fresh pair of eyes. However, there are two kind of things I've observed, and I'm just wondering if everyone else feels the same way.

1. If you are going to agree with Alex's video that the phandom or even members of IDB are delusional/invasive I'd just like to remind you that you are STILL writing posts or lurking in forum dedicated to discussion and speculation. So think about that. For honesty, when I first watched Dan's video I felt a sense of guilt for being one to partake in discussion, no matter how harmless most of it can be. However, seeing the kind of video Alex made just pissed me off. Why? Just because you're speaking down on the "crazy shippers" (that's not even their entire audience) and assuming a sense of authority doesn't make you automatically correct. Alex still made a speculative video making commentary nobody really asked for, with little or no research or understanding of what they wrote. Frankly, if they made a post here or a thread on Twitter and if they were a normal fan account they'd be torn to shreds.

And then, on a separate discussion:
2. I'm just wondering, generally speaking, those that find the creation of art or reading of fanfiction kind of amoral now, did you draw this line before they came out or after? If they were heterosexual friends and had fanfiction written about them is it suddenly okay or is still bad to your eyes?
:cactus:
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000dia000 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:24 pm It's been interesting to read takes the last few days since the video, especially with seeing everything with a fresh pair of eyes. However, there are two kind of things I've observed, and I'm just wondering if everyone else feels the same way.

1. If you are going to agree with Alex's video that the phandom or even members of IDB are delusional/invasive I'd just like to remind you that you are STILL writing posts or lurking in forum dedicated to discussion and speculation. So think about that. For honesty, when I first watched Dan's video I felt a sense of guilt for being one to partake in discussion, no matter how harmless most of it can be. However, seeing the kind of video Alex made just pissed me off. Why? Just because you're speaking down on the "crazy shippers" (that's not even their entire audience) and assuming a sense of authority doesn't make you automatically correct. Alex still made a speculative video making commentary nobody really asked for, with little or no research or understanding of what they wrote. Frankly, if they made a post here or a thread on Twitter and if they were a normal fan account they'd be torn to shreds.

And then, on a separate discussion:
2. I'm just wondering, generally speaking, those that find the creation of art or reading of fanfiction kind of amoral now, did you draw this line before they came out or after? If they were heterosexual friends and had fanfiction written about them is it suddenly okay or is still bad to your eyes?
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

arguably, writing about their real lives on a gossip forum is worse/more invasive than making up stories about them imo.
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Not on the same topic - but I just keep thinking of what a happy, confident, lovely little boy Dan was... Remember him from his grandma's videos? To then being bullied and disappointed by his peers and society so much that he was driven down to such a lonely low point in his life a few years later. I wonder if he'll ever have that free, boyish joy again - I hope so now :cry:

Does anyone have any particular favourite live shows for either/both of them they enjoy re-watching? I quite like them for having on in background to listen to while doing other things :love2:
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