Dan & Phil Part 90: Fish Daddies

[Phantasy]

A lot of families are built on elaborate edifices of not lies exactly, but tacitly agreed-to fictions. This may sound like a negative thing, but sometimes it's best all around not to get into issues if no one thinks there is any real benefit to do so.

I trained my family early on to never ask me about my love life. So they recruited my sister's best friend to ask me about it in my sister's hearing every Christmas lol. That was a low-stress approach that worked for everyone until I decided I had a relationship that I wanted to formalize with respect to my family.

I'm sure Dan's family had a very good guess as to both his sexuality and his relationship with Phil. And I can also see them pretending they hadn't known when he told them as a way of protecting that family edifice after the fact. Dan did say he didn't like people saying "we been knew", and maybe his mother just preferred to say she had no idea rather than get into a discussion of who thought what when that would be unhelpful and possibly embarassing.

(As a mother as well, I also can't imagine being totally clueless, but I can imagine deciding not to ask.)

I think this is the case... you get the sense from Dan that his relationship with his family is built on eggshells and his mom may leave some things unsaid so they don’t unintentionally cause Dan to retreat further. However, mom’s know, they almost always know (maybe even more so with sons).

I really wanted Dan to elaborate on the phone call from his mom after he sent the email... I imagine there were lots of tears.

On the other end of the rainbow is Phil and his mom... and I can totally see Kath “knowing” and pointing out how when and why she knew... would love to see another mother/son collab with her and exploring this.

[autumnhearth]

^ That all makes sense. Too bad Phil ruled out having his mum in a video again :/ During his Q&A? I’ve gotta rewatch that.

[stufflizloves]

Excuse me while I have a small case of the feels at Dan liking an (epic!) video of a same-sex tango set to “Toxic” from Ausi’s DWTS.

(Apologies as I am an ignorant American who is just watching the video for the first time. Very, very lovely. Made me quite emotional actually, dnp aside.)

[firsttimeposter]

^ That all makes sense. Too bad Phil ruled out having his mum in a video again :/ During his Q&A? I’ve gotta rewatch that.

He did?

[scientia]

Dan is so certain his fam-a-lam didn't know but I just... would be so surprised if they at least didn't...suspect. Not that that makes it any less terrifying.

Glad to hear that certain friends (I assume Bryony, Ian, Martyn, Cornelia) knew for a long time, and at least they weren't 100% closeted in their personal life (after Phil's video I'm not really surprised though.) I'm just happy they had friends and co-workers who knew.

I'm so proud of Dan and Phil and so happy to see Dan out and confident these days.

I'm really happy they had people surrounding them that they could trust. Especially since that trust wasn't publicly betrayed during all of these years

[itasca00]

^ That all makes sense. Too bad Phil ruled out having his mum in a video again :/ During his Q&A? I’ve gotta rewatch that.

He did?

Yes, I would say he's ruled it out for the time being.

• [2-19:53] Phil is asked if his mother is ever going to get on YouTube. Phil explains that he once did a video with his mother, and she was afterwards recognized in a shop. He says that she didn’t realize that this was a thing that could happen, and he thinks she had enough after that.

[itasca00]

Oh, I'm going to cry at Dan's latest story on Instagram! It's too early in the morning for this!

[noodlebum]

Go on Colin!!

[knq]

Oh, I'm going to cry at Dan's latest story on Instagram! It's too early in the morning for this!

I haven’t even gone to bed yet and it’s still too early to process this

Karen tries so hard, man. I just want to send her hugs.

[citizen_erased]

Oh, I'm going to cry at Dan's latest story on Instagram! It's too early in the morning for this!

I may have legit just cried a little. This is so sweet

[Phantasy]

Oh, I'm going to cry at Dan's latest story on Instagram! It's too early in the morning for this!

I haven’t even gone to bed yet and it’s still too early to process this

Karen tries so hard, man. I just want to send her hugs.

Yep, definitely some tears here...
Of course we don’t know the full dynamics of the relationship with his parents, or what Dan might be hanging on to from the past, but I really hope Dan recognizes how incredibly blessed and lucky he is to have a mom that not only loves him (hopefully that’s an unconditional given), but like you said tries so hard to be supportive and inclusive. I hope their bond continues to grow stronger—it’s a lovely thing to see.

[George]

While I also find it kinda weird that's Dan's family didn't even suspect, I think we sometimes forgot that they're not consuming his content we same way that we're. Dan's grandma probably never ended up googling phan timeline or watching... a certain video. After experiencing those plus more it's easy to be sure, but if you never go to those spaces then what are you left with? A roommate of 10 years (who's also your business partner). Never meeting girlfriends? It's dodgy yeah... but not necessarily impossible, especially if you have your son telling you he's not gay. (Someone like his brother had to suspect/know tho, he's been on tumblr, he's seen it all. This actually made me wonder if he had to keep those things as a secret from the rest of the family..)

[noodlebum]

Maybe they still just thought he was bi rather than gay, and he wanted to clarify specifically.

[Secretstanner]

Maybe they still just thought he was bi rather than gay, and he wanted to clarify specifically.

I dunno. Personally I don’t think it was a case of his family thinking he was bi and wasn’t gay. If his family were aware of his attraction to men it wouldn’t be if they had no idea. He said he couldn’t get out the words to tell them he was gay because although he knew they’d except it in 2019, he didn’t know the outcome it could have. If dan has told his parents he was bi and they would of accepted his attraction to men a long time ago. I think it’s just possible that the sexuality question just never was a topic of discussion at all. As others have said she maybe had a feeling and it might not have been a totally surprise. But from what dan has said about his relationship with his family about not being able to talk emotionally? about things with them, I don’t think it’s something you’d wanna bring up with your son incase that pushed them way. And even if his mum might of wanted to ask about relationships or a gf she might just have wanted him to tell her.

[noodlebum]

Maybe they still just thought he was bi rather than gay, and he wanted to clarify specifically.

I dunno. Personally I don’t think it was a case of his family thinking he was bi and wasn’t gay. If his family were aware of his attraction to men it wouldn’t be if they had no idea. He said he couldn’t get out the words to tell them he was gay because although he knew they’d except it in 2019, he didn’t know the outcome it could have. If dan has told his parents he was bi and they would of accepted his attraction to men a long time ago. I think it’s just possible that the sexuality question just never was a topic of discussion at all. As others have said she maybe had a feeling and it might not have been a totally surprise. But from what dan has said about his relationship with his family about not being able to talk emotionally? about things with them, I don’t think it’s something you’d wanna bring up with your son incase that pushed them way. And even if his mum might of wanted to ask about relationships or a gf she might just have wanted him to tell her.

Yeah I agree actually, was probably more that it was something just never mentioned at all in the family - glass wall and all. Might have been obvious, but just never spoken about.

[i look like a pencil]

Dan's new ig story is just too precious

It's such a sweet message to receive from his mum

[alittledizzy]

I love Karen taking Colin to pride. I'm kind of fascinated by her not telling Dan beforehand - obviously he wouldn't have wanted to go, what with his absolute and complete avoidance of all things that happened in his life prior to turning 18, but I wonder if her decision to go was impulsive or if she planned it and just wanted to surprise him with it while she was there or if she really did just do this for herself and not as a gesture toward Dan?

I also love Dan's interview, but I do feel like he misspoke on the topic of needing to come out to be happy. It's entirely valid for Dan, and I understand how it could be an empathetic blind spot for him, but I've already seen the insidious kind of backlash on my twitter feed where it's not people who are angry... it's just people who feel bad. Bad that the guy they're using as a role model just said there's something they need to do to be happy, and either they can't do it or they did do it and it didn't make them happier. It's fucking amazing and fills my heart with joy that Dan coming out to his family gave him that exhale-and-relax moment, but it's not a universal. Since thanks to itasca00 I can actually quote it, I'm gonna do that:

D: I’d say that, firstly, you’ve got to be authentic in your life. If you--if you really want to be happy, if you want that moment of serenity where you can just deeply exhale and go This is who I am. This is fine. At some point, you need to come out. And that’s a hard thing to say to people because based on people’s life experiences, it might be difficult. You might think that people in your life will reject you. You could lose your job. You might be in danger depending on the environment that you’re in. But I just say you need to do everything you can to get to a place where you can be who you are, and you have people in your life that love you for that person. Because when you say, “You know what? It’s fine. I--I can just get on with it. It’s okay as it is even if I’m lying about this one thing,” it--it’s not. So I--you know, it’s hard, and that’s the thing. It--It’s so easy to say, “Just come out! That’s the answer. It will be fine.” And I think we both know that’s not how it works. But y--you just have to. You know, it was the struggle for me for 27 years. People look at me and they’re like, okay. I’m a--a white, able-bodied gayboy from a relatively middle class background that now, age 27, has this incredibly successful career in life, and it was still torture for me. So, you know, if it was this hard for me, then you can’t imagine how hard it would be for everyone else.

I think this is the part that frustrates me most. Because I do believe that Dan was just on a verbal roll and was trying to flesh out multiple lines of thought at the same time and in the end just didn't manage it. He's acknowledging the dangers of coming out, he's acknowledging the fact that he did it from a place of privilege and knowing he'd get wide acceptance, he's acknowledging that you do need to be in a place where you can come out first. But I think what he doesn't acknowledge is that getting to that place is not just hard, for some people it's actually impossible. People who need that job they might lose or they'd be homeless, people who need the family support system for financial security or just their own mental health, people who can't get out of that dangerous position in life. I'm not angry or upset at Dan for what he's trying to say there, it's just a very idealistic view. I wish that he'd taken the time to also acknowledge people who need to find a way to be happy with themselves within a closeted existence and not just make their whole life geared toward coming out.

[anna_begins]

I also love Dan's interview, but I do feel like he misspoke on the topic of needing to come out to be happy. It's entirely valid for Dan, and I understand how it could be an empathetic blind spot for him, but I've already seen the insidious kind of backlash on my twitter feed where it's not people who are angry... it's just people who feel bad. Bad that the guy they're using as a role model just said there's something they need to do to be happy, and either they can't do it or they did do it and it didn't make them happier. It's fucking amazing and fills my heart with joy that Dan coming out to his family gave him that exhale-and-relax moment, but it's not a universal. Since thanks to itasca00 I can actually quote it, I'm gonna do that:

D: I’d say that, firstly, you’ve got to be authentic in your life. If you--if you really want to be happy, if you want that moment of serenity where you can just deeply exhale and go This is who I am. This is fine. At some point, you need to come out. And that’s a hard thing to say to people because based on people’s life experiences, it might be difficult. You might think that people in your life will reject you. You could lose your job. You might be in danger depending on the environment that you’re in. But I just say you need to do everything you can to get to a place where you can be who you are, and you have people in your life that love you for that person. Because when you say, “You know what? It’s fine. I--I can just get on with it. It’s okay as it is even if I’m lying about this one thing,” it--it’s not. So I--you know, it’s hard, and that’s the thing. It--It’s so easy to say, “Just come out! That’s the answer. It will be fine.” And I think we both know that’s not how it works. But y--you just have to. You know, it was the struggle for me for 27 years. People look at me and they’re like, okay. I’m a--a white, able-bodied gayboy from a relatively middle class background that now, age 27, has this incredibly successful career in life, and it was still torture for me. So, you know, if it was this hard for me, then you can’t imagine how hard it would be for everyone else.

I think this is the part that frustrates me most. Because I do believe that Dan was just on a verbal roll and was trying to flesh out multiple lines of thought at the same time and in the end just didn't manage it. He's acknowledging the dangers of coming out, he's acknowledging the fact that he did it from a place of privilege and knowing he'd get wide acceptance, he's acknowledging that you do need to be in a place where you can come out first. But I think what he doesn't acknowledge is that getting to that place is just not that easy for some people. People who need that job they might lose or they'd be homeless, people who need the family support system for financial security or just their own mental health, people who can't get out of that dangerous position in life. I'm not angry or upset at Dan for what he's trying to say there, it's just a very idealistic view. I wish that he'd taken the time to also acknowledge people who need to find a way to be happy with themselves within a closeted existence and not just make their whole life geared toward coming out.

I agree it seems like there were some points he was trying to get at but they didn't totally "land". I do feel like he acknowledge that getting to that place is not that easy for some people when he said "So, you know, if it was this hard for me, then you can’t imagine how hard it would be for everyone else." I think that was his intention, although it came across as a bit clumsy perhaps because of it being an unscripted interview and the topic being something fairly new for him to outwardly speak about.

I totally appreciate Ben giving us this longer interview when he didn't have to so I hate to come across as criticizing him but I wish he had given us the uncut 35 minute version instead of the severely edited 12 minutes. We don't know if Dan went on to elaborate or clarify this point since in BIG Dan did talk about how not being able to come out for whatever reason was valid so it seems like he would have also mentioned it here. The interview was cut in such a way it felt very choppy and ended very abruptly. I hope people that look up to him realize that as much as Dan tries to consider everyone else's experiences naturally his own will inspire what he says and that it doesn't mean his way in the only way. This interview was so soon after he came out and the relief and high he was feeling was so fresh I think the enthusiasm for trying to find a way where you can live "out" came from that. I hope that people who are feeling bad about how his words might have come across in the interview combine them with what he said in BIG because he does actually understand that coming out isn't a reality for some.

[alittledizzy]

I also love Dan's interview, but I do feel like he misspoke on the topic of needing to come out to be happy. It's entirely valid for Dan, and I understand how it could be an empathetic blind spot for him, but I've already seen the insidious kind of backlash on my twitter feed where it's not people who are angry... it's just people who feel bad. Bad that the guy they're using as a role model just said there's something they need to do to be happy, and either they can't do it or they did do it and it didn't make them happier. It's fucking amazing and fills my heart with joy that Dan coming out to his family gave him that exhale-and-relax moment, but it's not a universal. Since thanks to itasca00 I can actually quote it, I'm gonna do that:

D: I’d say that, firstly, you’ve got to be authentic in your life. If you--if you really want to be happy, if you want that moment of serenity where you can just deeply exhale and go This is who I am. This is fine. At some point, you need to come out. And that’s a hard thing to say to people because based on people’s life experiences, it might be difficult. You might think that people in your life will reject you. You could lose your job. You might be in danger depending on the environment that you’re in. But I just say you need to do everything you can to get to a place where you can be who you are, and you have people in your life that love you for that person. Because when you say, “You know what? It’s fine. I--I can just get on with it. It’s okay as it is even if I’m lying about this one thing,” it--it’s not. So I--you know, it’s hard, and that’s the thing. It--It’s so easy to say, “Just come out! That’s the answer. It will be fine.” And I think we both know that’s not how it works. But y--you just have to. You know, it was the struggle for me for 27 years. People look at me and they’re like, okay. I’m a--a white, able-bodied gayboy from a relatively middle class background that now, age 27, has this incredibly successful career in life, and it was still torture for me. So, you know, if it was this hard for me, then you can’t imagine how hard it would be for everyone else.

I think this is the part that frustrates me most. Because I do believe that Dan was just on a verbal roll and was trying to flesh out multiple lines of thought at the same time and in the end just didn't manage it. He's acknowledging the dangers of coming out, he's acknowledging the fact that he did it from a place of privilege and knowing he'd get wide acceptance, he's acknowledging that you do need to be in a place where you can come out first. But I think what he doesn't acknowledge is that getting to that place is just not that easy for some people. People who need that job they might lose or they'd be homeless, people who need the family support system for financial security or just their own mental health, people who can't get out of that dangerous position in life. I'm not angry or upset at Dan for what he's trying to say there, it's just a very idealistic view. I wish that he'd taken the time to also acknowledge people who need to find a way to be happy with themselves within a closeted existence and not just make their whole life geared toward coming out.

I agree it seems like there were some points he was trying to get at but they didn't totally "land". I do feel like he acknowledge that getting to that place is not that easy for some people when he said "So, you know, if it was this hard for me, then you can’t imagine how hard it would be for everyone else." I think that was his intention, although it came across as a bit clumsy perhaps because of it being an unscripted interview and the topic being something fairly new for him to outwardly speak about.

I totally appreciate Ben giving us this longer interview when he didn't have to so I hate to come across as criticizing him but I wish he had given us the uncut 35 minute version instead of the severely edited 12 minutes. We don't know if Dan went on to elaborate or clarify this point since in BIG Dan did talk about how not being able to come out for whatever reason was valid so it seems like he would have also mentioned it here. The interview was cut in such a way it felt very choppy and ended very abruptly. I hope people that look up to him realize that as much as Dan tries to consider everyone else's experiences naturally his own will inspire what he says and that it doesn't mean his way in the only way. This interview was so soon after he came out and the relief and high he was feeling was so fresh I think the enthusiasm for trying to find a way where you can live "out" came from that. I hope that people who are feeling bad about how his words might have come across in the interview combine them with what he said in BIG because he does actually understand that coming out isn't a reality for some.

I think my whole problem with it is just the assumption that coming out is the end goal that you need to be happy. I'm definitely not mad at him for that being his experience, and it is the experience of a lot of people, I just think it's a really desolate feeling to see someone say that this thing you can't do (yet, or ever) is what you actually have to do in order to be happy.

But I definitely agree with you that the high he was on from coming out along with the unscripted nature of the interview are why it came out like that. Dan is a thoughtful and very empathetic guy, and when he's got more time to self-edit what he says it does usually come out a lot better.

[poweroftriangles]

I did find that part a bit jarring as well. I'm glad he acknowledged his privilege and how lucky he was, and he did understand that it's not easy for everyone, but seemed to stop short of saying that one could be happy living one's own truth privately. (Maybe there was more nuance in the uncut version.)

I mean, I live in a part of the world where LGBT identities aren't super well known outside urban liberal circles. So coming out isn't a one-time thing that one can do and then be happy afterward. It's a whole project of having to slowly introduce the idea of same-gender attraction, or the idea that sex and gender are different and someone can identify as a different gender they were assigned. These are very foreign ideas to a majority of the population (and sometimes people hearing it for the first time react with shock and disgust), so many LGBT people I know decide that it's not worth it, they'd rather keep their relationships with family and employers the way they are rather than risk everything. Or they came out to family, to mixed and confusing reactions and it wasn't the catharsis they expected. It's complicated, and the only solution is to have more people add to the conversation, from different backgrounds.

[Templeofshame]

I also love Dan's interview, but I do feel like he misspoke on the topic of needing to come out to be happy. It's entirely valid for Dan, and I understand how it could be an empathetic blind spot for him, but I've already seen the insidious kind of backlash on my twitter feed where it's not people who are angry... it's just people who feel bad. Bad that the guy they're using as a role model just said there's something they need to do to be happy, and either they can't do it or they did do it and it didn't make them happier. It's fucking amazing and fills my heart with joy that Dan coming out to his family gave him that exhale-and-relax moment, but it's not a universal. Since thanks to itasca00 I can actually quote it, I'm gonna do that:

D: I’d say that, firstly, you’ve got to be authentic in your life. If you--if you really want to be happy, if you want that moment of serenity where you can just deeply exhale and go This is who I am. This is fine. At some point, you need to come out. And that’s a hard thing to say to people because based on people’s life experiences, it might be difficult. You might think that people in your life will reject you. You could lose your job. You might be in danger depending on the environment that you’re in. But I just say you need to do everything you can to get to a place where you can be who you are, and you have people in your life that love you for that person. Because when you say, “You know what? It’s fine. I--I can just get on with it. It’s okay as it is even if I’m lying about this one thing,” it--it’s not. So I--you know, it’s hard, and that’s the thing. It--It’s so easy to say, “Just come out! That’s the answer. It will be fine.” And I think we both know that’s not how it works. But y--you just have to. You know, it was the struggle for me for 27 years. People look at me and they’re like, okay. I’m a--a white, able-bodied gayboy from a relatively middle class background that now, age 27, has this incredibly successful career in life, and it was still torture for me. So, you know, if it was this hard for me, then you can’t imagine how hard it would be for everyone else.

Strong agree with everything Mandy said, and I also found this part a bit confusing, like what type of coming out he's talking about as necessary for happiness? Especially after Coming Out to You, and Dan's tweet reinforcing the fact of coming out as a thing that happens again and again with different audiences... Is he just referring to coming out to immediate family, I guess? But I feel like he would acknowledge that that depends on those relationships, like we don't have any evidence that he contacted his dad to come out...

[Megancita75]

So the deal with an on-camera interview is that you don't always have the presence of mind to express yourself with absolute clarity or to realize what you left unsaid. I don't think this interview should be taken as gospel on what Dan thinks about this topic.

[Templeofshame]

So the deal with an on-camera interview is that you don't always have the presence of mind to express yourself with absolute clarity or to realize what you left unsaid. I don't think this interview should be taken as gospel on what Dan thinks about this topic.

I think Mandy was very clear on that and that is what I meant when I said I completely agree with what Mandy said (and I wasn't quoted on that, but I'm pretty sure everyone on IDB has been in agreement on this point throughout this discussion).
That doesn't mean I can't be curious about what he meant in the moment he actually said it, though.

[autumnhearth]

Yeah very much agree with above, I was really surprised he seemed to flipped his stance on coming out. I do however agree with this part: “I just say you need to do everything you can to get to a place where you can be who you are, and you have people in your life that love you for that person.” But those people do not need to be your original family, co-workers or old friends, they can be chosen family and online communities. Just so long as you don’t feel completely alone in who you are. That said, I’m very happy for Dan and soft for his mum.

[Templeofshame]

Yeah very much agree with above, I was really surprised he seemed to flipped his stance on coming out. I do however agree with this part: “I just say you need to do everything you can to get to a place where you can be who you are, and you have people in your life that love you for that person.” But those people do not need to be your original family, co-workers or old friends, they can be chosen family and online communities. Just so long as you don’t feel completely alone in who you are. That said, I’m very happy for Dan and soft for his mum.

This is such a good point and it may just be in my head that the realm of what I think of when people say "come out" didn't connect with the idea of coming out to someone you trust, without some kind of minimum of how out is out. Maybe, in this context, it's just the mortifying ordeal of being known.