Dan & Phil Part 91: A Decade of Deppy

[Birdie]

My guess is it had to come out because it's not only Dan involved in that. He has so many people working on his merch in the background that all depend on him keeping to the agreed schedule. I think Dan's secret project is probably a video so he is the only person affected by the delay. But if he had delayed the merch release, it would have affected a lot of different people so I understand why the merch had to come out now and not when the project is ready. I'm actually okay with that, that's business and it happens even when you plan carefully.

Speaking of this, I was wondering what people think about that project, and what it is. I didn't think much about it last night, and i guess i'll be happy with anything but... if it was a book, I'd be really really really happy. But that's just the bookworm in me talking.

I think I'd like a book but has he talked about being a writer before (as in fiction writer, he writes his videos and stuff of course) like Phil has? I think Phil is more likely to write a book. If Dan's project isn't a normal Youtube video, I could kind of see him making a short film or something. He seemed to be really into directing during the tours and I think it would be really cool if he wrote and directed a film. I can also still see him getting into stand-up but I don't think that makes sense for this project.

(I didn't even think about how the delay could be due to external producers or something but of course that makes sense. I still think his track record of announcing stuff that doesn't happen isn't a good look but if it's because of external factors this time that's not his fault of course and it can happen.)

[parallel]

I think Dan's secret project is probably a video so he is the only person affected by the delay.

Speaking of his secret project, I don't think it's a video tbh since it's "something new". Dan's been doing YouTube videos for over a decade now, so a video wouldn't be "something new", even if it's a new genre of videos, imo. I assume that "something new" refers to a new medium, but I have no clue what.

[coffeepenguin]

I guess I'm still wondering why the merch was released now, instead of whenever this project is allowed to come to fruition. We didn't know he was working on anything specific, so it's not like we were expecting something to drop? Like, does that mean he's releasing his final round of merch when the project comes out? Why release it at all if it was meant to be in tandem with other content?

My guess is it had to come out because it's not only Dan involved in that. He has so many people working on his merch in the background that all depend on him keeping to the agreed schedule. I think Dan's secret project is probably a video so he is the only person affected by the delay. But if he had delayed the merch release, it would have affected a lot of different people so I understand why the merch had to come out now and not when the project is ready. I'm actually okay with that, that's business and it happens even when you plan carefully.

There's no reason other than money to do the merch drop now instead of waiting for his project to come to fruition,

I agree with your post but I've been thinking about this part a bit and I was wondering how him having to pay his whole team plays into these things. I know he's rich but he probably won't stay rich if he doesn't make more money and still has to pay management and stuff. I literally know nothing about business stuff like this so I'm probably way off. I just don't want to think Dan's greedy and that there's another reason for this but who knows?

Maybe this is giving Dan too much credit, but I do think that external factors and other people being involved played a big role both in the merch decision and the mysterious project, and this is also why he is in a somewhat delicate position in regard to communication. Of course, compared to, for example, hired actors in big projects, Dan's an independent creator who has much more power over his decisions, his merch is his own business venture, and as a youtuber, the way he interacts with his audience is supposed to be different, but still, those are people who sometimes downright lie to their fans and reporters about their future projects and everybody seems to accept it without problem. As for Dan being a youtuber, we all know, I think, that his relationship with his audience has always been difficult and unfortunately, I can't see it changing any time soon, even after his opening up about bullying and PTSD in BIG that actually helped explain many things. Remember how often people were angry and upset with him after every liveshow he did.

I agree that Dan's not so great at communication, when I say "he doesn't owe us anything" it doesn't mean that he can't do more or that it wouldn't be welcome. Of course it would be, but I see it as more of a structural problem, I'll even go as far as to say that this type of career he's in doesn't maybe suit Dan very much, but given his story and circumstances, I'm very glad that he met Phil and that it pushed him to start his own youtube channel, and explore his creativity, and in the end got him where he is today, alive, rich, dealing with his mental health and open about his sexuality. He's also very young still and he's got every time in the world to figure his shit.

[Amiaw]

One thing that I’m always baffled by is how the fandom talks about IRL and uses that as a valid reason for Dan not talking to us. IRL has absolutely nothing to do with us as fans. We don’t make money from it and we don’t get anything from it unless we buy something so I can’t see worrying about their employees or their bottom line. I know that everything has been forgotten not by me because of the merch drop and accompanying blog post but I can’t get excited about a new secret project unless he changes his behavior. People talk about fans being entitled but he’s the entitled one if he expects this fan base to support his new project that he’s made clear is separate from YouTube when he won’t take the time to even tweet.
I don’t expect people that love him to stop supporting him and I’m just expressing my personal opinion about this. I’ve experienced a lot of emotions in regards to Dan this year and while some of them were positive now I’m at the point where I don’t miss joint content anymore. I just hope he can finish the year by earning back some of the goodwill he’s lost.

[danphil333]

My guess is younow live shows like phil. More structured (answering fans questions). Sponsored by "props" like phil.

Basically 'weekly live sponsored isgs"

[noodlebum]

He said he's been working on it a long time, so I doubt it. Plus not exactly new.

[yellowsubmarine]

It's a really unfortunate series of events. I really, deep in my heart, feel sorry for everything regarding this, I really honestly believe Dan has good intentions, loves his audience, but he absolutely brought this upon himself. There's no excuse here.
A little interaction sprinkled here and there instead of the radio silence you got could have totally softened the blow the merch drop caused.
Hope this serves as a learning experience for him and if not, again, he brought this upon himself.

[Megancita75]

I know this is old history, but I see people mention it a lot. What happened with TABINOF? Is it just they announced it as a surprise? I don’t quite get why that would cause a problem, honestly, so maybe there is more to it?

[Judearaya]

The merch is predictable and not bad I guess but two years to create is just ridiculous and for anyone knowing a bit of business is easy to realise, but he's showing his legs and painted his nails and he has big plans and so everything is forgotten.

I know more ppl addressed this, but I'm still learning how to use IDB and my brain is tired today so IDK how to do multiple quotes.

The conversations really got me thinking about this two year thing, and about why *for Dan*, these are things that took two years and are so important to him. And I guess my mind is really here: I don't know if two years is what it took to make the specific merch itself. But he legit just said recently in response to Olly that he tried for two years to come out/talk about/live his truth (however we want to phrase it). Dan wearing the sweater dress with painted nails seems very PCOU to me, so maybe this is what he's addressing? The fact that he wanted to embrace this part of himself but wasn't there yet emotionally and he wasn't out yet etc.?

[itasca00]

'I hope to share more of myself and good news with you all soon'

I'm glad you highlighted this statement because, while reading everyone's recent posts, I wondered if my interpretation might be different from others'. I definitely think that "share more of myself" refers to interacting/being present on social media/in YouTube videos/online generally. I think Dan is acknowledging that he hasn't been very active recently, and he's assuring everyone that this is only temporary.

To be more speculative, I suspect that his low level of activity is somehow related to his secret project (which makes me even more curious as to what it might be) because of the context provided by the Tumblr post, and I suspect that things probably won't change until after the project is released. I agree with alittledizzy's suspicion that the final merch drop is probably scheduled for Christmas, which means I'm not really expecting the project to be released/things to change until next year.

Personally, I take this all as good news! In my opinion, Dan continues to be crystal clear that he's not going anywhere. I wasn't expecting things to change anytime soon, so the potential timeline above doesn't bother me, and I like being able to set my personal expectations for the rest of the year. Ultimately, I trust Dan, and I'm happy to just let him do whatever he thinks is best for him.

[liola]

But Dan has gone, actually. He has basically left all of the platforms he was operating in regarding to the audience, that's the whole thing. I haven't forgiven anything, I'm sorry, there's ton of people that work on projects behind the scenes and still manage to do the bare minimum of interaction and communication, why is he always coddled? He's a grown up millionaire who got lucky enough to have himself a fan base so involved that would forgive him anything and fight with teeth and claws to defend his honour, and for what?

"He doesn't owe us anything" wrong. He does owe us some kind of involvement if he wants his fan base to be excited for the things he works on, if he wants his fan base to buy the merch or the comedy tour tickets that I'm assuming is what the project is going to be. He owes some interaction if he wants to keep his customer happy, otherwise sure, he isn't obliged, but then this is the NORMAL response that is going to get, and the deserved one.

He is trying to sell us something, whether it's his content or his merch or his image, because the only reason why he'll get money out of it, whether from our actual pockets or through adsense is because of his dedicated fans. And he's ignoring them completely except for, oh, when he wants their love and care in form of video views or money merch.

If he was any other business man he'd be failing, I can't help but reiterate it. But he isn't and that makes him spoiled and that's why people complain. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy, I'm sure he has good intentions, but in this dual relationship with us he's currently being bad, dismissive, at times even mocking of the things we care about like the spooky tweet layout. He needed it to get some clout to announce the merch, I get it, but of all the millions of relatable tweets he probably has in his drafts he chose one that felt like he was scolding his fan base for holding out hope to some of the traditions that have been dismantled this year, all of if after being silent, again.

If you're not unhappy with the situation, God, I envy you. But please, consider that this is criticism to his business behaviour and that's something he should cherish and not be protected from, because if for some reason this bubble bursts tomorrow and he's got no dedicated fan base left, I sincerely doubt he would be able to regain with this kind of strategy. And i for one am passed because of it, because the kind of business behaviour is everything I dislike and should not be successful imo.


That said, yeah, I think the new project is comedy show Or stand up tour, and obviously the production was involved in the delay. I don't think it's a video, if anything a video would be a trailer for the main thing.

[eggooo]

i actually think dan's new project miiight be a venture into breadtube, seeing his involvement in popular breadtubers' videos and BIG having an especially contra-esque style in comparison with all his other videos. he has said "it is something new but extremely dan", which makes me think it's something of this sort. this may be just my scrambled egg brain talking after binging some philosophytube today
thoughts? just my brief take, i'm not banking on it being on the money or anything, especially with dan addressing his comedy-centred content, and strongly considering that's what he's built up an audience upon this whole decade. gotta pay that rent.. but not rlly.

[Birdie]

The thing is, we've been here before. Dan has promised to return before, he has teased projects before that then didn't happen or happened a lot later than intended, he has said he would be more active before. As much as I want to trust him, I'll believe it when I see it. The blog post read sincere (for something that's clearly damage control) and yet he has sounded sincere before when he promised stuff that didn't happen.

I was so excited that he might start doing stand-up. After BIG and Vidcon, I was so ready to throw my money at him for a ticket or whatever. But now that Dan doing stand-up is actually a possibility that might happen, I don't want it anymore because of the way he's been behaving towards the audience he expects to buy the tickets lately.

i actually think dan's new project miiight be a venture into breadtube, seeing his involvement in popular breadtubers' videos and BIG having an especially contra-esque style in comparison with all his other videos

That was my first thought too but I actually really don't want it. Hot take, but I don't think this is Dan's thing. BIG was good because it was personal and emotional but I think most of us remember the Memeing of Life... Getting into philosophical and ethical questions will also automatically generate a lot of backlash and maybe he has grown as a person in the last few months, who knows, but in the past his reaction to criticism of any sort wasn't very good. He used to get anxious after every live show where he expressed opinions, I can't really see him expressing (controversial?) opinions for a living.

[blahblahblah8]

I can’t imagine him doing standup. I’m not sure it’s something I want either but whatever, he’s free to do whatever he wants anyways. I don’t think he’s going do political or philosophical things either bec he keeps pushing the comedy thing. I thought the project would still be YouTube related but something more produced. I’d be a bit disappointed if he was done with YouTube but I guess it would be much of a change anyways.

[coffeepenguin]

"He doesn't owe us anything" wrong. He does owe us some kind of involvement if he wants his fan base to be excited for the things he works on, if he wants his fan base to buy the merch or the comedy tour tickets that I'm assuming is what the project is going to be. He owes some interaction if he wants to keep his customer happy, otherwise sure, he isn't obliged, but then this is the NORMAL response that is going to get, and the deserved one.

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume he doesn't, not particularly, want to keep his customer happy, what then? Or, more precisely, that Dan's target audience is much smaller than the overall number of people that will potentially see his merch drop while they're waiting for communication and would strongly prefer something else, so he wouldn't particularly care if people who want consistent content and interaction finally reach their limit and leave? Not that it's necessarily my view, and I don't pretend to understand how his mind works at the best of times, but if I remember correctly, much discussion has been had on this very forum at the start of the year about deppy potentially wanting to keep a smaller audience moving forward. Btw, he hasn't acknowledge BIG hitting 10 millions, has he?

He is trying to sell us something, whether it's his content or his merch or his image, because the only reason why he'll get money out of it, whether from our actual pockets or through adsense is because of his dedicated fans. And he's ignoring them completely except for, oh, when he wants their love and care in form of video views or money merch.

If he was any other business man he'd be failing, I can't help but reiterate it. But he isn't and that makes him spoiled and that's why people complain. I'm sure he's a wonderful guy, I'm sure he has good intentions, but in this dual relationship with us he's currently being bad, dismissive, at times even mocking of the things we care about like the spooky tweet layout. He needed it to get some clout to announce the merch, I get it, but of all the millions of relatable tweets he probably has in his drafts he chose one that felt like he was scolding his fan base for holding out hope to some of the traditions that have been dismantled this year, all of if after being silent, again.

If you're not unhappy with the situation, God, I envy you. But please, consider that this is criticism to his business behaviour and that's something he should cherish and not be protected from, because if for some reason this bubble bursts tomorrow and he's got no dedicated fan base left, I sincerely doubt he would be able to regain with this kind of strategy. And i for one am passed because of it, because the kind of business behaviour is everything I dislike and should not be successful imo.

I'm not speaking for others who aren't upset here, but personally, I don't usually see myself as his customer, as I'm not paying him and there's no contract, so I don't even consider this a conversation about his business behaviour. I consider this a conversation about the relationship between an entertainer and his fans. And also, maybe, a conversation, that we're not having, but personally, I would be very interested in, about why some fans see this relationship as a business transaction first and others don't (no shade, I'm genuinely often surprised by this).

[madzilla84]

Daniel Howell has made me feel every possible human emotion in the last 12 hours, congrats old man

If that ain't the truth!! I almost have an emotions-hangover. His hints of things to come make me nervous; both for the content itself (though I am also excited for it) and the reactions to it.

I could maybe see him trying out some live comedy, though I don't know if I can see him wanting to go on tour by himself. But who knows. While it'd be fun I don't think he'd want to transition to doing it full-time/as his main career as it shuts out the vast majority of his audience (unless he could somehow upload it as well). The D&P tours (and books, merch etc) were always supplementary to their content.

I do think that whatever the project is, it has something to do with the course he went on back in May; perhaps using what he learned there. He said he's been working on it for quite a while. Beyond that, whether it's a video series or a tv series or an audio series or a book or whatever, I have no idea. Like @Katka I'm also not enormously enthused by the idea of him becoming a full-time breadtuber as - well, it's just not my thing. But I know it's a lot of peoples' thing, and if it was done in Dan-style and funny, maybe I'd enjoy it after all.

As mentioned above, I would *love* if the 'sharing more of myself' he mentioned meant a return to liveshows/social media etc, but I don't feel like I can be optimistic enough for that to be the case. On the other hand, I said the same thing about Phil (actually I thought he was the *less* likely of the two of them to return to liveshows), and here we are. New liveshows with Dan (with maybe a new format if that made him more comfortable) would be *incredible*, but I'm not holding my breath. I always thought he actually liked doing them, though; that he liked sharing his opinions on various things, but I guess not.

With Halloween come and gone, I think the last hope for joint content TM is gone (I wasn't expecting spooky week, in fact I wasn't expecting anything at all, but I suppose I still had a tiny hope for something spooky). I wonder if they'll ever actually address the end of the gaming channel, or if they'll just quietly leave it dead so as not to upset people?

[Megancita75]

I've only been watching since June, but I keep having -- for lack of a better word -- "meta" thoughts about what keeps me interested. For me, it's less an emotional investment in DnP as people or in how they interact with fans. I like them, obviously, and have affection for them and I find them individually and jointly very, very entertaining.

But I think what drew me initially was the the coming out videos and the bravery and intelligence behind how they did that, and now I think I'm very intrigued and curious about the act of reinvention and how one navigates a very public creative transition -- even if that transition is not smooth. I am also interested in general in YouTube as a platform and in how fandoms spaces operate (this is the first one I've ever been in) and in the psychology of parasocial relationships. For me, then, DnP really serve as a proxy for thinking about ideas that interest me and less about how they do or do not perform.

I don't know if that adds anything useful to the discussion, other than to say that fans are here for different reasons and get different things out of DnP.

[liola]

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume he doesn't, not particularly, want to keep his customer happy, what then? Or, more precisely, that Dan's target audience is much smaller than the overall number of people that will potentially see his merch drop while they're waiting for communication and would strongly prefer something else, so he wouldn't particularly care if people who want consistent content and interaction finally reach their limit and leave? Not that it's necessarily my view, and I don't pretend to understand how his mind works in the best of times, but if I remember correctly, much discussion has been had on this very forum at the start of the year about deppy potentially wanting to keep a smaller audience moving forward. Btw, he hasn't acknowledge BIG hitting 10 millions, has he?

Then he fails. And let's be clear, it's not about actually WANTING his customers to be happy, it's about what shows. With so many influencers out there, if he doesn't show care to the people that support him, and doesn't give content.. well, what is he giving? What is the thing that sets him apart? What is he DOING and why would people care? A business that doesn't show interest in the customers is a business destined to failure. That's just how it is. Even the most famous and successful companies do market research and renovate their products and promotions constantly to keep the idea that they listen to customers, or why would idk, Coca Cola rebrand their products all the time when they're so successful?

I'm not speaking for others who aren't upset here, but personally, I don't usually see myself as his customer, as I'm not paying him and there's no contract, so I don't even consider this a conversation about his business behaviour. I consider this a conversation about the relationship between an entertainer and his fans. And also, maybe, a conversation, that we're not having, but personally, I would be very interested in, about why some fans see this relationship as a business transaction first and others don't (no shade, I'm genuinely often surprised by this).

Well, personally as a professional in digital marketing who has worked for clients in social media, I just can't help it. If this was 2009 it would be different, but in 2019 when a Youtubers becomes so successful that they have management, have brand deals and use the platforms as tool to be more successful, it becomes a business. And hey, he even incorporated as such

Personally, I see it as a business ttransaction because there's an exchange of service and compensation. The compensation can be money for the merch, views for videos or engagement that makes him successful enough that brands want to offer him a deal. It's not just about the exchange of money itself but rather metrics for success.

Everyone is a customer of something, it just depends on how you see it, but the moment your time or energy results in monetary success for someone, and you'd rather give your time and energy to one influencer than other, you become a customer.

(Can you tell I did my master thesis in the comparison of fandom and customer groups? Lmao)

[Templeofshame]

I consider this a conversation about the relationship between an entertainer and his fans. And also, maybe, a conversation, that we're not having, but personally, I would be very interested in, about why some fans see this relationship as a business transaction first and others don't (no shade, I'm genuinely often surprised by this).

Genuinely confused, how is a relationship between a professional entertainer (or creator, or influencer, or whatever you want to call someone who makes a living off of having an audience) and that entertainer's fans not a business relationship? What other kind of relationship could it be? I mean, it's also a parasocial relationship, but those things aren't mutually exclusive and I think the vast majority of parasocial relationships are also business relationships. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of "business relationship" that's being used here? The audience is definitely a key stakeholder in pretty much any kind of business (different types of audiences for different types of businesses) and that's what we are.

[coffeepenguin]

I consider this a conversation about the relationship between an entertainer and his fans. And also, maybe, a conversation, that we're not having, but personally, I would be very interested in, about why some fans see this relationship as a business transaction first and others don't (no shade, I'm genuinely often surprised by this).

Genuinely confused, how is a relationship between a professional entertainer (or creator, or influencer, or whatever you want to call someone who makes a living off of having an audience) and that entertainer's fans not a business relationship? What other kind of relationship could it be? I mean, it's also a parasocial relationship, but those things aren't mutually exclusive and I think the vast majority of parasocial relationships are also business relationships. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of "business relationship" that's being used here? The audience is definitely a key stakeholder in pretty much any kind of business (different types of audiences for different types of businesses) and that's what we are.

I maybe should've mentioned that I know almost nothing about theory of communication despite having worked in it for some time, and I know even less about business because I've only worked for public sector, but really, must everything be about market and sales? Also, stakeholder doesn't necessarily mean customer, that's what I actually disagree with (I'm not talking about merch, of course, it's different from youtube videos). But then, again, it's fine if people want to analyse Dan's behaviour in terms of business strategy, it's just not something I'm interested in and not a part of how I personally experience fandom. And I would argue that this is true for other people as well. Personally, what interests me in fandom is engagement and participation, for example, I see a lot of similarities between the mechanisms for political engagement and processes within fandom, which is no doubt influenced by my background in social sciences and human rights advocacy, like how liola explained their perspective as a professional in digital marketing, and I perfectly understand and respect that. Maybe, for Dan, it is first and foremost about business (I don't think so, but I wouldn't know), and if it is, that's fine, this is what pays for his flat, his pizza and his designer shirts, but it just isn't for me, and I think I'm allowed to present this other perspective, so when I'm trying to explain why I don't feel betrayed by his behaviour, I'm not, like, protecting my misunderstood baby from big scary critics or whatever, he doesn't read this forum anyway, thank god, nor am I opposing this type of business strategy based analysis on principle, I'm just trying to operate a different concept of this kind of relationship between an entertainer and his audience, because for me business isn't what it is all about.

[Templeofshame]

I think I'm allowed to present this other perspective, so when I'm trying to explain why I don't feel betrayed by his behaviour, I'm not, like, protecting my misunderstood baby from big scary critics or whatever, he doesn't read this forum anyway, thank god, nor am I opposing this type of business strategy based analysis on principle, I'm just trying to operate a different concept of this kind of relationship between an entertainer and his audience, because for me business isn't what it is all about.

I definitely didn't mean to imply in any way that you can't express your perspective. I'm also not very interested in business, but it seems to me that the relationship is a business relationship whether we're interested in that or not. I can see how it might feel nice not to think much about that, though.

[liola]

Customers are part of the stakeholder group though! Not internal or primary stakeholders, but customers or fanbase communities are secondary/external stakeholders because they're vital for the survival of one brand/image/business.

Anyway I think the problem here is not the merch per se, I've been one of the firsts always saying that he's allowed to have merch without content. But even when we take away the business part and we only talk about the entertainer/fans social relationship, what we've had lately is Dan only interacting when he's trying to get attention for a business transaction, that's why people are disappointed and upset. Like, he's the one making it about business.

I understand that we all have different opinions about this, and at the end of the day he's free to do what he thinks is best, and fans are free to act and say what they think is the best response, and what will happen afterward is impossible to predict.

I can only hope he will learn from this, that having to write that danger control post taught him something, and that interacting soon actually means soon, and not weeks but at this point I don't have faith in him, and that is what makes me sad.

As a fandom we spent years criticizing Phil for being too impersonal and calling him a robot, and praising Dan in comparison for being more open and interacting more. Now we're in the opposite situation, but the fandom is defending Dan in a way it never did before, and some faulted Phil as if it's his fault as well, and that also makes me sad.

I'm sad and disappointed that I can't be happy for this new project, but this is what being invested in someone involves sigh

Why is it only Friday? I'm ready for some Phil live show lightness plis

[parallel]

Not to interrupt the conversation on customers vs fandom, but I don't think Dan wants to foray into BreadTube. Openly supporting BreadTubers is different to wanting to become one of them, I think. A lot of people will support BreadTubers but it does take a certain type of person to become one. First and foremost, you need original, engaging, compelling ideas. If you don't bring new arguments to the table then you have to at least present them in a new way or format, otherwise people won't pay attention to you.

I think the appeal of BreadTube is that it takes maybe more technical/specialised topics and concepts and makes them digestible and accessible for the general population. It is available for free on YouTube, and the target audience of BreadTube videos is mostly laypeople; no prior philosophy knowledge is required, and I would say that only a basic understanding of politics and political terminology is required to follow along. If you can present complex and inaccessible concepts in a simple, accurate, accessible manner, then you will thrive.

Can Dan really do that, though? That's two different requirements: know the specialised theory, and be able to condense and simplify while maintaining accuracy.

Basically I'm Gay was a long time coming. He's had years to work on it—on his thoughts, on his script specifically, etc. It also discusses a lot of very personal topics which he understands because he's been through them and likely processed them in therapy. Can he present this same level of conceptualised argument/thesis for every video with a similar frequency to popular, high-quality BreadTubers? Probably not. I think BIG was a once in a lifetime type thing for him. Not that he'll never make anything of that quality again—I'm sure he will—but just that I don't expect every video he makes to be like BIG or that he can make that type of video with any kind of reliable frequency.

[bluecaterpillar]

I know this is old history, but I see people mention it a lot. What happened with TABINOF? Is it just they announced it as a surprise? I don’t quite get why that would cause a problem, honestly, so maybe there is more to it?

putting this under a spoiler because it got longer than i expected

tabinof came completely out of the blue with a professional-looking trailer which didn't feature actual dan and phil in it anywhere, only actors. this came off the back of a few weeks of no content and barely any online interaction so everyone was desperate for a new video and instead got the announcement. the whole thing came just a few months after zoella's ghostwriting scandal, so goodwill towards youtuber books was in short supply anyway with lots of people saying they were insincere cash grabs. some felt that dan and phil had 'sold out' and become like other yters which the phandom as a whole often liked to look down their noses at (mostly the gleam team... wow remember when that was the biggest thing on youtube).

i think the fact that youtube as a website still wasn't as corporate as it is today also played into the outrage. people who didn't like the professionalisation of youtube definitely didn't like the reminder that their fav creators were doing it for the money. it's much more normalised now for youtubers now to do spons and outside projects, but the first tour in particular was a big deal as i don't think it had been done on that scale before. people were also annoyed because they thought free video content would suffer as more time was devoted to book/tour preparations - which did happen to an extent tbh.

(btw, the gg thread from the day tabinof was announced starts here if you want to have a look, but it is pretty negative. i remember being really surprised at how angry people's responses were, since my main source of phandom stuff back then was instagram and everyone on there, including me, was mega excited.)

I think I'm allowed to present this other perspective, so when I'm trying to explain why I don't feel betrayed by his behaviour, I'm not, like, protecting my misunderstood baby from big scary critics or whatever, he doesn't read this forum anyway, thank god, nor am I opposing this type of business strategy based analysis on principle, I'm just trying to operate a different concept of this kind of relationship between an entertainer and his audience, because for me business isn't what it is all about.

I definitely didn't mean to imply in any way that you can't express your perspective. I'm also not very interested in business, but it seems to me that the relationship is a business relationship whether we're interested in that or not. I can see how it might feel nice not to think much about that, though.

i definitely think of it as a parasocial relationship, rather than a business relationship. maybe that's naive of me. obviously on some level there's money involved but there's also emotions, and i find it hard to boil that down to a business transaction - it just seems like an overly cold way of describing things for my taste. dan's coming out video, for example, was a huge personal weight off him and he found a lot of joy by sharing that with his audience (we all saw him at vidcon, he was positively glowing!). and over the years i've got enjoyment out of their content that runs deeper than the money i've spent on merch, because i feel connected to them both on some level despite the fact they don't know i exist.

but also, my brain really is not wired to view things from a marketing perspective so i guess it is to be expected that i completely skim over that approach to fandom. honestly, it's just fascinating seeing the different things that catch everyone's attention and the different attitudes that people have to being a fan and consuming content.

[stufflizloves]

maybe this is a thing i should already know but i don’t...at the risk of sounding like an idiot: what is breadtube? where does that name come from? what creators are considered “breadtubers?” (i gathered contrapoints, but i assume there’s a community? is it primarily lgbtq+? is it the same as leftist youtube?