Dan & Phil Part 97: Arch enemies and Husbands

[alittledizzy]

Also, maybe people caught this in previous shows and I just didn't, but the fact that it's Dan helping Phil record the shows makes me happy. I just love the hints of their behind the scenes partnership. (You can see Dan's icon in the screen recording of the Stereo feed.)

[liola]

I haven't properly watched the last 2 shows bc for some reason they're just not landing with me as I.hoped, but I do hope Phil is going to post something else besides these talks

[Becky.rigby]

Ahh it’s time for the cancel Dan and Phil on Twitter again (face palms). I think this is quite an interesting topic for us to discuss on here actually. Incase you are not on Twitter, people are bringing up old tweets/videos from like 2010/2013 if incidents where Dan and Phil has said something racist or using the r***** word etc. And people on Twitter are asking for an apology.

I have conflicted opinions, because these incidents are from 8-10 years ago, meaning people are actually trying to seek out the content to try and cancel them, which isn’t cool. Also their fans haven’t exactly been incident, trying to sexualise them and their relationship and trying to out them before they were ready. However I agree some of the stuff they said was a big yikes, but that was what YouTube was like back then, they didn’t know better.

What are your opinions on cancel culture? I think if the person/people have shown they have changed and the stuff in question is from a longggg time ago, I personally think cancel culture can be toxic.

[inanerat]

Like the Seth one, is anyone on here planning to upload the full audio from the various liveshows to the IDB youtube channel? I totally understand if not, but it would be awesome to have and be able to listen to the full things.

[alittledizzy]

Like the Seth one, is anyone on here planning to upload the full audio from the various liveshows to the IDB youtube channel? I totally understand if not, but it would be awesome to have and be able to listen to the full things.

Yes! I'm gonna do it tomorrow. I actually thought I'd already captured the audio only to realize that the file corrupted halfway through so I've just gotta re-record it and then I'll get it online!

[BrothAndBrine]

I think people are just bored at home and decided to go back and see old stuff. The world will go back to normal in about a year, school will resume, and everything that goes along with it and this canceling of Dan and Phil for stuff they said in different time will fade away. And if it doesn't, I doubt the amount of people X'ing them out of their lives will affect them.

[inanerat]

Ahh it’s time for the cancel Dan and Phil on Twitter again (face palms). I think this is quite an interesting topic for us to discuss on here actually. Incase you are not on Twitter, people are bringing up old tweets/videos from like 2010/2013 if incidents where Dan and Phil has said something racist or using the r***** word etc. And people on Twitter are asking for an apology.

I have conflicted opinions, because these incidents are from 8-10 years ago, meaning people are actually trying to seek out the content to try and cancel them, which isn’t cool. Also their fans haven’t exactly been incident, trying to sexualise them and their relationship and trying to out them before they were ready. However I agree some of the stuff they said was a big yikes, but that was what YouTube was like back then, they didn’t know better.

What are your opinions on cancel culture? I think if the person/people have shown they have changed and the stuff in question is from a longggg time ago, I personally think cancel culture can be toxic.

I'm sure this has been discussed on here before, probably multiple times, and I expect that most people on here have fairly similar viewpoints on it to me, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents (or ten, this will probs be long lol) feel free to skip, I don't think I'm saying anything groundbreaking, just putting my thoughts out there, maybe articulating something in a way that can help someone else.

In short, my personal feelings and thoughts of the situation (in general, I'm not on twitter, idk what exact things people might be bringing up) is that yes, dnp both have said yikey things, especially in the early days of yt. and they have both grown a massive amount and don't say those things anymore. Their behaviour has clearly changed over the years with education and I don't really see the point in digging up old shit and making a big fuss about it.

When it comes to discussing problematic or harmful behaviour there's a few common themes and points that I think are often discussed or mentioned (these are like things people say and think about, I include my own opinions as an aside, but am also attempting to just layout a bit of a dissection of different things to think about regarding this stuff):

1. Intent and impact.
This is a really important dichotomy to separate and understand the importance of. In the case of many people, I think dnp included, it is rare that the behaviour in question is done with malicious intent, done consciously with the purpose to hurt someone. This of course does not mean that the action is not harmful, these two things exist together. Looking at intent is something to consider when assigning blame and what kind of responses would be appropriate. In many cases, this common occurrence of someone saying or doing something harmful without intending to is because they are unaware of how it is harmful, also very likely to be the case with things dnp have done in the past, when people are unaware and don't intend harm it is my personal rationale to not blame or be harsh to them, but to attempt to educate them and help them see the harmful impact of their actions with the hope that they learn and don't do it again. (Of course there are some situations where while someone might not've been explicitly aware of something being harmful, it could be a conclusion easily arrived to if they though about it much, which may change how someone places blame/feels about the situation) In the case of dnp's early behaviour, I think this is really applicable because I don't get the feeling that they did things with malintent, and they have also clearly learned and been educated/educated themselves on things and stopped doing/saying harmful things they have done in the past over time.

2. Times change/evolution of what is acceptable
This is a tricky one, and like intent and impact, not a clear cut, and often something that contains contradictions. This is also something that I think is brought up often as an excuse but not thoroughly explored/discussed enough. In dnp's case, it is also very applicable as their past behaviours (I think specifically of using the slur r****** and referencing/inaccurately using r*pe) these were extremely common and run of the mill on the internet (and irl) at the time. They were not wildly out of line or shocking in comparison to others with these behaviours, which contributes to the idea of intention, and when things are done because they're what's normal, without understanding of their harm. To some degree, I find this an acceptable excuse, and it is one of the reasons I personally don't strongly blame or have a huge problem with dnp's usage of them in the past (again, because they have learned and stopped doing those things, if they still did them my feelings would be very different). However, it is also VERY important to understand that this excuse does not mean that they were not harmful/didn't cause harm/don't continue to cause harm. They did and they do, just because it was normalized, doesn't mean it was right, but rather explains why someone may have done it ~~context~~.


3. What is the appropriate response (of the one who did harm)?
Looking at response, you can look at/ask for types of apology, types of change in behaviour and potential healing/mitigation of harm caused. This is definitely a place where people differ, but to me when it comes to cases like dnp, the change in action is really what speaks the most for me. I feel like especially online, lengthy apologies tend to be/feel quite performative. A short apology is nice and serves as a public acknowledgement that one has caused harm. From then on, I am of the mindset that changing future behaviour to not repeat the harm once someone is aware of it, is what matters and determines whether I stick with someone or remove/distance them in my life (be that a personal relationship or considering someone I used to follow online 'cancelled') I see dnp's changes in behaviour as a lot more meaningful that other youtubers who have done things, been called out/made aware of their impact, make a big lengthy apology and then done very little.
Apologies and change of future behaviour both focus on the now and what can be done moving forward. In the case of dnp it is also important to look at what options they have in terms of reducing harm, as their content is not a passing conversation, but something that stays up in video/post form. There are different schools of thought around this, and I think opinions on what the right or best thing to do is vary a lot. While nothing completely disappears from the internet forever (something dnp are deeply aware of, bless their young closeted gay souls) there is absolutely something to be said for taking down content that contains harmful behaviour, things that someone no longer feels reflects themselves as they have learned. People tend to be of two minds on this; on one hand, taking down old harmful content (from official channels/pages) is good, it means that people won't stumble upon it and be surprised and hurt. For dnp, there can absolutely be cases where either it would effect them professionally if someone looking to work with them went back through older videos on their channel or a new viewer who knows their more current content and selves, goes back to watch older videos and is shocked and hurt by things that were done, never expecting them from the dnp they know today. These situations have the potential to hurt both viewers and dnp themselves. On the other hand, leaving up old content with some harmful behaviours with how dnp have such a catalogue of videos of themselves over time, shows the whole journey and change that they have gone through, shows who they were then and who they are now and many of the steps in between. In some ways, it is a example and evidence of how people can and do change as they learn, and an example of how many of us make mistakes and do harmful things without realizing and learn and change away from those things. imo, there's really no perfect right way, for things that are very harmful, likely to be extremely triggering to people, potentially more damaging to dnp's careers, taking them down is for the best. But also, for things that are still harmful but somewhat less strongly for most people, leaving them up doesn't bother me, as it feel like an honest acknowledgment of things past and how they have changed. In terms of what dnp have done, they have taken down some videos from their channels, but still left others up, and we'll never really know exactly what goes through their heads on making those decisions on a video-by-video basis. (Dan does talk in a 2017(?) liveshow on dansinotinteresting about taking down some of his old vids, but I don't remember exactly what he said, you can go find it if you want)

4. What is the appropriate response (of viewers/content consumers)?
The internet loves and thrives on short-term drama. In terms of actually resolving issues at a deep level, short term flare ups of issues don't tend to directly accomplish much lasting impact on their own. I tend to stray away from terms like 'cancel culture' or 'calling out' because I think they bring up immediate intense emotions and judgements from people (including myself) which makes more in depth (ayyyy) discussion and actual conflict resolution more difficult. Making people aware of their harmful behaviours and effectively getting them to change is very difficult. We don't like to feel criticized and threatened. Generally, I think public call outs are a method that should be used only after discussion has been prompted and denied on a more direct/personal level. Being called out in a public space is extremely scary, and I think a lot less likely to yield good results, as people will be so focused on trying to protect from the threat they feel that they won't be able to calm down and actually listen and learn. In the specific case of people on twitter currently trying to bring up stuff from 7+ years ago, I feel like it's very likely that their intentions are mainly to get attention (drama) (like BrothAndBrine said, people are bored). Most of these things have been brought up in the fandom, across all social medias, thoroughly. It is not big new news and I think it's quite clear that dnp don't do those things anymore and would denounce/disagree with their past behaviours. At this point, a direct apology or acknowledgement from them would seem pretty out of place imo, like we've been over this, they've been over this, changes have been made.
For me, I would much rather people spend their energy (not that I expect this, as I don't think their intentions strongly lie with trying to actually reduce future harm/get people to change) working on current issues that need dealing with, there are plenty of people out there doing worse shit than dnp have ever done right now. Or, focus on things dnp are doing right now that are harmful, things that they might not be super aware of, could learn about and change.

'Cause, yeah, while I love them to bits (why tf else would I be here) there are things that dnp do and say currently that I don't like, think are harmful, that I would love them to change, etc. (maybe some day I will rant on here about how Dan's use of AAVE, particularly for comedic effect really grinds my gears) And yes, I still continue to watch them, honestly if I tried to not consume content from anyone who was never problematic ever I wouldn't have anything to consume. I couldn't even read my own stuff. They have done harmful things, they continue to do harmful things, as we all do. I personally have sized it up, seen them over time, understand how while there are things they do now that I don't like or find problematic, they are very common, and more of a societal issue than specific to them, so I continue to watch and follow them. But that is an individual and conscious choice. Other people may feel differently and that's fine.

Ok thank you for reading my long ramble don't forget to try and be as compassionate as possible to yourself and others Let old drama fizzle past you. (idk, maybe this is just a message for me, maybe you need to hear it too)

Edit: PS, just because I'm curious since I wasn't around then, I've been watching the undertale series back and in the 2nd episode there's the snowpoffs and Dan makes a joke like 'that's offensive you can't say that anymore', did it ever cause drama/discourse in the fandom?? I personally find it a funny pun, and Dan being queer and someone who definitely had 'poof' used against him (I think it's actually one of the examples he uses in BIG) a fine joke for him to make, but him not being out at the time I wonder if people had a go at him for it??

[helvetica]

Re: Cancelling
Most people aren’t calling for “cancelling”, as much as calling for an “apology and acknowledgment”. I would be very surprised, but not in a negative way, if Dan and Phil ever acknowledge any of their past offensive jokes etc. Cynically I don’t think it would be a wise PR move to put more eyes on their missteps. Right now probably less than 4% of their audience knows about this and cares. To me the fact that they haven’t done anything super problematic for 7+ years & deleted those old tweets/videos is enough acknowledgment for me but I understand if other people want to critique their behavior more than I do.

Would that conversation even be that productive on an activist level? I’m not convinced Twitter would really be satisfied by an apology no matter what they say. For example I saw someone talking about how Dan used the word “rat” to describe himself and how that was racist towards Japanese people. Idk. He probably just meant he’s a rodent it’s not that deep. (If others want to tell me otherwise, I’m not opposed to the idea in general but it seems like a stretch to say the least)

[shan]

I honestly can't stand this cycle of cancel culture that's going on. It targets people for a thing they said once or twice nearly a decade ago and demand justice for something that was usually a regrettable product of it's time. Yeah, they may have said things that were part of normal internet language back in the day that is not acceptable now but the content has been removed (and a long time ago for that matter) so that should be that.

Dan said in his live show about deleting some videos that they were taken down because they don't represent him or his values anymore. Enough said. People being 'held accountable' for stuff like this is just ridiculous. Actions speak louder than words and if someone has clearly been told that certain words aren't acceptable, taken it on board and not said it again, why should they be forced to acknowledge it and apologise for it almost 10 years later? We aren't talking unspeakable crimes here, just some unfortunately common words thrown around in the late 2000's.

If they have such a need to lash out at someone, why not focus on the many many actually crappy people out there rather than the brief moment in time a pretty decent person said the wrong thing?

[glitterintheair]

I am just confused as to why Twitter Phannies are expecting dnp to acknowledge those things when they have always been big fans of the "ignore it until it goes away" mindset. I mean, they didn't say anything when they went to Marzia's birthday a few years ago, which caused a lot of commotion among the phandom, and people are shocked they're not speaking up now about stuff even older than that? Byeeee.

[Catallena]

I'm probably just cynical from kpop fandumbs but I just don't trust Twitter youths bringing shit from years ago back up again. Especially when you really need search pretty deep to find some of that crap and some things I saw were just people reaching to be mad. The claim that they're not trying to ~cancel Deppy but just want acknowledgement makes me roll my eyes too. Usually that ends up being used stan twt wank about how much more unproblematic their faves are compared to others. It's annoying and unproductive imo.

DnP have done plenty of shit I wouldn't defend them for (do not remind me of felixgate) and obviously I wouldn't be against some acknowledgement of past behavior, but I just wonder who that would really be for? Definitely not for DnP to allow them to learn and do better (which should be the goal when holding people accountable) because for the most part they've already done that. Would it really be for the people actually hurt or just for stan twt who thinks this is activism.

In the end I'm just happy that my entire internet presence from 2010 is long gone.

[alittledizzy]

Dan and Phil better really enjoy shopping for baby gifts...

[alittledizzy]

Ahh it’s time for the cancel Dan and Phil on Twitter again (face palms). I think this is quite an interesting topic for us to discuss on here actually. Incase you are not on Twitter, people are bringing up old tweets/videos from like 2010/2013 if incidents where Dan and Phil has said something racist or using the r***** word etc. And people on Twitter are asking for an apology.

I have conflicted opinions, because these incidents are from 8-10 years ago, meaning people are actually trying to seek out the content to try and cancel them, which isn’t cool. Also their fans haven’t exactly been incident, trying to sexualise them and their relationship and trying to out them before they were ready. However I agree some of the stuff they said was a big yikes, but that was what YouTube was like back then, they didn’t know better.

What are your opinions on cancel culture? I think if the person/people have shown they have changed and the stuff in question is from a longggg time ago, I personally think cancel culture can be toxic.

I'm sure this has been discussed on here before, probably multiple times, and I expect that most people on here have fairly similar viewpoints on it to me, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents (or ten, this will probs be long lol) feel free to skip, I don't think I'm saying anything groundbreaking, just putting my thoughts out there, maybe articulating something in a way that can help someone else.

In short, my personal feelings and thoughts of the situation (in general, I'm not on twitter, idk what exact things people might be bringing up) is that yes, dnp both have said yikey things, especially in the early days of yt. and they have both grown a massive amount and don't say those things anymore. Their behaviour has clearly changed over the years with education and I don't really see the point in digging up old shit and making a big fuss about it.

When it comes to discussing problematic or harmful behaviour there's a few common themes and points that I think are often discussed or mentioned (these are like things people say and think about, I include my own opinions as an aside, but am also attempting to just layout a bit of a dissection of different things to think about regarding this stuff):

1. Intent and impact.
This is a really important dichotomy to separate and understand the importance of. In the case of many people, I think dnp included, it is rare that the behaviour in question is done with malicious intent, done consciously with the purpose to hurt someone. This of course does not mean that the action is not harmful, these two things exist together. Looking at intent is something to consider when assigning blame and what kind of responses would be appropriate. In many cases, this common occurrence of someone saying or doing something harmful without intending to is because they are unaware of how it is harmful, also very likely to be the case with things dnp have done in the past, when people are unaware and don't intend harm it is my personal rationale to not blame or be harsh to them, but to attempt to educate them and help them see the harmful impact of their actions with the hope that they learn and don't do it again. (Of course there are some situations where while someone might not've been explicitly aware of something being harmful, it could be a conclusion easily arrived to if they though about it much, which may change how someone places blame/feels about the situation) In the case of dnp's early behaviour, I think this is really applicable because I don't get the feeling that they did things with malintent, and they have also clearly learned and been educated/educated themselves on things and stopped doing/saying harmful things they have done in the past over time.

2. Times change/evolution of what is acceptable
This is a tricky one, and like intent and impact, not a clear cut, and often something that contains contradictions. This is also something that I think is brought up often as an excuse but not thoroughly explored/discussed enough. In dnp's case, it is also very applicable as their past behaviours (I think specifically of using the slur r****** and referencing/inaccurately using r*pe) these were extremely common and run of the mill on the internet (and irl) at the time. They were not wildly out of line or shocking in comparison to others with these behaviours, which contributes to the idea of intention, and when things are done because they're what's normal, without understanding of their harm. To some degree, I find this an acceptable excuse, and it is one of the reasons I personally don't strongly blame or have a huge problem with dnp's usage of them in the past (again, because they have learned and stopped doing those things, if they still did them my feelings would be very different). However, it is also VERY important to understand that this excuse does not mean that they were not harmful/didn't cause harm/don't continue to cause harm. They did and they do, just because it was normalized, doesn't mean it was right, but rather explains why someone may have done it ~~context~~.


3. What is the appropriate response (of the one who did harm)?
Looking at response, you can look at/ask for types of apology, types of change in behaviour and potential healing/mitigation of harm caused. This is definitely a place where people differ, but to me when it comes to cases like dnp, the change in action is really what speaks the most for me. I feel like especially online, lengthy apologies tend to be/feel quite performative. A short apology is nice and serves as a public acknowledgement that one has caused harm. From then on, I am of the mindset that changing future behaviour to not repeat the harm once someone is aware of it, is what matters and determines whether I stick with someone or remove/distance them in my life (be that a personal relationship or considering someone I used to follow online 'cancelled') I see dnp's changes in behaviour as a lot more meaningful that other youtubers who have done things, been called out/made aware of their impact, make a big lengthy apology and then done very little.
Apologies and change of future behaviour both focus on the now and what can be done moving forward. In the case of dnp it is also important to look at what options they have in terms of reducing harm, as their content is not a passing conversation, but something that stays up in video/post form. There are different schools of thought around this, and I think opinions on what the right or best thing to do is vary a lot. While nothing completely disappears from the internet forever (something dnp are deeply aware of, bless their young closeted gay souls) there is absolutely something to be said for taking down content that contains harmful behaviour, things that someone no longer feels reflects themselves as they have learned. People tend to be of two minds on this; on one hand, taking down old harmful content (from official channels/pages) is good, it means that people won't stumble upon it and be surprised and hurt. For dnp, there can absolutely be cases where either it would effect them professionally if someone looking to work with them went back through older videos on their channel or a new viewer who knows their more current content and selves, goes back to watch older videos and is shocked and hurt by things that were done, never expecting them from the dnp they know today. These situations have the potential to hurt both viewers and dnp themselves. On the other hand, leaving up old content with some harmful behaviours with how dnp have such a catalogue of videos of themselves over time, shows the whole journey and change that they have gone through, shows who they were then and who they are now and many of the steps in between. In some ways, it is a example and evidence of how people can and do change as they learn, and an example of how many of us make mistakes and do harmful things without realizing and learn and change away from those things. imo, there's really no perfect right way, for things that are very harmful, likely to be extremely triggering to people, potentially more damaging to dnp's careers, taking them down is for the best. But also, for things that are still harmful but somewhat less strongly for most people, leaving them up doesn't bother me, as it feel like an honest acknowledgment of things past and how they have changed. In terms of what dnp have done, they have taken down some videos from their channels, but still left others up, and we'll never really know exactly what goes through their heads on making those decisions on a video-by-video basis. (Dan does talk in a 2017(?) liveshow on dansinotinteresting about taking down some of his old vids, but I don't remember exactly what he said, you can go find it if you want)

4. What is the appropriate response (of viewers/content consumers)?
The internet loves and thrives on short-term drama. In terms of actually resolving issues at a deep level, short term flare ups of issues don't tend to directly accomplish much lasting impact on their own. I tend to stray away from terms like 'cancel culture' or 'calling out' because I think they bring up immediate intense emotions and judgements from people (including myself) which makes more in depth (ayyyy) discussion and actual conflict resolution more difficult. Making people aware of their harmful behaviours and effectively getting them to change is very difficult. We don't like to feel criticized and threatened. Generally, I think public call outs are a method that should be used only after discussion has been prompted and denied on a more direct/personal level. Being called out in a public space is extremely scary, and I think a lot less likely to yield good results, as people will be so focused on trying to protect from the threat they feel that they won't be able to calm down and actually listen and learn. In the specific case of people on twitter currently trying to bring up stuff from 7+ years ago, I feel like it's very likely that their intentions are mainly to get attention (drama) (like BrothAndBrine said, people are bored). Most of these things have been brought up in the fandom, across all social medias, thoroughly. It is not big new news and I think it's quite clear that dnp don't do those things anymore and would denounce/disagree with their past behaviours. At this point, a direct apology or acknowledgement from them would seem pretty out of place imo, like we've been over this, they've been over this, changes have been made.
For me, I would much rather people spend their energy (not that I expect this, as I don't think their intentions strongly lie with trying to actually reduce future harm/get people to change) working on current issues that need dealing with, there are plenty of people out there doing worse shit than dnp have ever done right now. Or, focus on things dnp are doing right now that are harmful, things that they might not be super aware of, could learn about and change.

'Cause, yeah, while I love them to bits (why tf else would I be here) there are things that dnp do and say currently that I don't like, think are harmful, that I would love them to change, etc. (maybe some day I will rant on here about how Dan's use of AAVE, particularly for comedic effect really grinds my gears) And yes, I still continue to watch them, honestly if I tried to not consume content from anyone who was never problematic ever I wouldn't have anything to consume. I couldn't even read my own stuff. They have done harmful things, they continue to do harmful things, as we all do. I personally have sized it up, seen them over time, understand how while there are things they do now that I don't like or find problematic, they are very common, and more of a societal issue than specific to them, so I continue to watch and follow them. But that is an individual and conscious choice. Other people may feel differently and that's fine.

Ok thank you for reading my long ramble don't forget to try and be as compassionate as possible to yourself and others Let old drama fizzle past you. (idk, maybe this is just a message for me, maybe you need to hear it too)

Edit: PS, just because I'm curious since I wasn't around then, I've been watching the undertale series back and in the 2nd episode there's the snowpoffs and Dan makes a joke like 'that's offensive you can't say that anymore', did it ever cause drama/discourse in the fandom?? I personally find it a funny pun, and Dan being queer and someone who definitely had 'poof' used against him (I think it's actually one of the examples he uses in BIG) a fine joke for him to make, but him not being out at the time I wonder if people had a go at him for it??

inanerat, I definitely found myself wanting to quote your entire post but I'll stick it behind a spoiler to save space.

I think you're right on actually every single point. In addition to all of that, this isn't even the first time things like this have been discovered, and in the past the response (that most people were happy with) was for the content that was offensive to be gone. This whole trend of demanding an apology because you feel personally hurt by something and want to ignore things like context/passage of time is definitely a new addition being tacked on, and it seems like (along with most 'fandom activist' callouts) it's done purely because getting positive attention for pointing out negative things gives people a certain kind of moral high. Holding Dan and Phil to higher standards is absolutely fine and something I'd encourage and do myself (like I did when they went to Marzia's party and it bothered me to be a fan of people who were friends with Felix) but in the case of this social media... it's not anything that anyone thinks Dan and Phil haven't actually grown from. Dan himself has gone through a staggering amount of social growth in just the past two years. An apology would do nothing except make the fans demanding it feel like they won some sort of prize and get the ego boost of having pressured a fave to do something. Also, like helvetica said, a public statement apologizing for things that are 10+ years old (especially in Phil's face) would probably just draw mainstream attention to it and make it seem like a now-problem not a then-problem, and despite all the tweets at Dan and Phil professing 'we're not canceling you' we don't actually know how much mainstream dragging through the mud they'd even want to handle.

If they do apologize or say something, it's not like that'll upset me. The things they said absolutely were shitty. I just feel like the demands for it are full of entitlement and an attempt to publicly shame for attention more than out of any kind of genuine concern which makes the underlying point harder to take. Making a ____ is problematic twitter thread full of things that are at most recent five years old but generally 10+ that fans 'discover' and already talk about an average of every 2-3 years just isn't the look for me.

[Catallena]

Who picked green Crocs?

[shan]

*excitement intensifying*

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say the boots were one of Dan's chosen outfits. The crocs could go either way

[shan]

'Cause, yeah, while I love them to bits (why tf else would I be here) there are things that dnp do and say currently that I don't like, think are harmful, that I would love them to change, etc. (maybe some day I will rant on here about how Dan's use of AAVE, particularly for comedic effect really grinds my gears) And yes, I still continue to watch them, honestly if I tried to not consume content from anyone who was never problematic ever I wouldn't have anything to consume. I couldn't even read my own stuff. They have done harmful things, they continue to do harmful things, as we all do. I personally have sized it up, seen them over time, understand how while there are things they do now that I don't like or find problematic, they are very common, and more of a societal issue than specific to them, so I continue to watch and follow them. But that is an individual and conscious choice. Other people may feel differently and that's fine.

Ok thank you for reading my long ramble don't forget to try and be as compassionate as possible to yourself and others Let old drama fizzle past you. (idk, maybe this is just a message for me, maybe you need to hear it too)

Edit: PS, just because I'm curious since I wasn't around then, I've been watching the undertale series back and in the 2nd episode there's the snowpoffs and Dan makes a joke like 'that's offensive you can't say that anymore', did it ever cause drama/discourse in the fandom?? I personally find it a funny pun, and Dan being queer and someone who definitely had 'poof' used against him (I think it's actually one of the examples he uses in BIG) a fine joke for him to make, but him not being out at the time I wonder if people had a go at him for it??

I finally had a chance to read your whole post and yes to everything. I'm scared to bring out the t--n word but I feel like only people of a certain age could be participating in this kind of thing. Anyone who was on the internet at the time would be very aware of the common usage of these words in the 2000's and how clearly times have changed as people have become more educated on these topics. Again, behaviour in more recent years should be a pretty clear indicator of if there's anything actually worth getting indignant about so far into the future.

I didn't know what AAVE was and googled it out of interest. I'll admit I'm incredibly ignorant on this topic, coming from outside the US, but anything of this kind I've heard in recent years from Dan I've always recognised as references from Ru Paul's Drag Race. While I myself don't go around quoting the show much, I'm genuinely interested to know what's considered appropriate and what's not.

For the snowpoff joke, I have a feeling it was probably such a small comment in a long video that it wouldn't have generated too much discussion? I think the fact that the joke was snowpoff rather than the actual word probably softened any drama that might have arisen otherwise. You've definitely got me in the mood for an Undertale re-watch though, some time in Snowdin with Papyrus Phil sounds really nice right now

[Becky.rigby]

It gets worse, apparently these kids have now contacted Ben who Dan did the coming out interview with and they are trying to contact Dans publisher to stop him from releasing his book. These people are not fans of Dan and Phil, they are bored children trying to ruin someone’s career.

I agree with above, there are some things recent with Dan and Phil I don’t agree with, like their lack of communication with their fans etc.. but everyone has flaws and if we cancelled everyone who has ever done something wrong they would be no one left. I hope Dan and Phil do say something, put these kids in their place.

[glitterintheair]

It gets worse, apparently these kids have now contacted Ben who Dan did the coming out interview with and they are trying to contact Dans publisher to stop him from releasing his book. These people are not fans of Dan and Phil, they are bored children trying to ruin someone’s career.

Just to clear things out, Ben got to know about the whole thing only because he saw a ig story of a phannie that posted a whole recap of the whole drama, which honestly brings me to the question: why does a journalist follow a phan account in the first place and watch their stories on ig, but... .

I do wish something, though. That Dan and Phil finally learn that their 'stay quiet when things get rough' mentality will come to bite their ass, eventually. And I'm not even talking about this specific case, but like... in general.

[hello9217]

Sorry just have to add my two cents bc I saw a tweet that I rolled my eyes so hard at and it doesn’t look like the situation is going away.

Dan and Phil are so obviously not the same people. Dan will be the first to tell you that you are valid in your sexuality and that you should always prioritize your mental health. Phil is still one of the kindest people I have seen for someone who has done Youtube for so long.
I do think they see what people get upset about and they adapt and change. People got upset about the felix situation and they have never hung out with him again or mentioned him again. Do they have to make a public announcement about it? No. They just change, they don’t sweep it under the rug as the tweet I saw would imply. They listen and they grow.
I find this whole thing ironic because back in 2018 Dan went through and deleted a lot of old videos and everyone was so pissed off about it because Dan always made a point to say that he would keep his videos up just so people know. Dan then made the comment that he unlisted the videos because he doesn’t want those to publicly represent the him of today.
Would that comment be enough? No of course not because every two years dan and phil go quiet, the kids get bored, and they dig up shit and demand justice for no fucking reason other than they can call themselves an activist.
Are we going to contact the writers of the office and demand they apologize for some of the awful things they have said in the show that they pass off as jokes? Of course we aren’t because we can all understand that it was a different time yet we can’t do the same for two people who are just humans that were occasionally stupid.

[Catallena]

Any guesses?

edit: It's Martyn!

Now THAT is a surprise.

[lefthandedism]

But....what if Cornelia goes into labor?!

[glitterintheair]

I... wasn't expecting Martyn at all. For some reason, this makes the chances of Dan being the last guest higher in my mind, don't ask me why though because I don't know.

If Cornelia goes into labour it'd be funny - Martyn leaving the show mid-stream... that would get a lot of views lol

[Amiaw]

I’m so excited! I’ve wanted Martyn and Phil to do something together for so long

[alittledizzy]

Omg I'm so excited for this now!!

Also for anyone waiting on the full PJ upload to youtube, I'm working on it now. This is attempt three... if my phone can just... not randomly stop the audio recording that'd be great.

[LAshleigh]

This is so sweet! I am very excited, I've never seen them interact much but I know how close they are/were as kids. Also, if there's any context in which I won't roll my eyes at Phil for keeping his stories pre-2009, it's sharing childhood stories with his brother.