Dan & Phil Part 97: Arch enemies and Husbands

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glitterintheair
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I hope their house has a room for their potential boyfriends too. I would hate for them to be confined in a basement or something.

Edit: top of the page with this? I am so sorry
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Levitating
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There's an article on the BCC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46895770 exactly about renting as friends because buying in London is extremely expensive (like, luxury level - Zoella has bought her house outside of London).

I am also hesitant about them being a couple because of the gap between their coming outs to their family. I liked the theory of some of you saying that Dan may have chosen to come out exactly because it would have been difficult to justify buying a house with Phil without first telling them about the relationship.

Yet, Phil has said he came out to his family long before doing it on the internet. Do we know for how long? Do you think is possible that Dan may have come out to Phil's family before his own? Because I cannot see Phil saying I am gay (being truth to himself)to his family and at the same time still lying about being in a relationship with Dan or not.

I also remember reading somewhere that Phil had always been more comfortable than Dan about his sexuality during his first years on Youtube, but that he started hiding it because of Dan. If this is true, then it makes me think that his coming out to the Lester family specifically was more about sharing a joy (I want to share more of me with you, mom/dad/Martyn; not lie to you anymore) than a terrifying admission (will you still love me? Is it okay that I'm gay?). Like, he was already comfortable with himself so, even if they had not accepted him, it would have been "fine". Which brings me back to questioning how Phil could have been out with his family without Dan coming out to them too. Relationships are a huge thing, as adults.

I do want them to be together :cry: It would be such a lovely story.
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shan
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Phil said in his coming out video that his parent's figured out he was gay by themselves since he was having 'friends' stay the night a lot. This is mostly assumed to be Dan given the timeline of this story and when he was home between finishing uni and moving to Manchester was heavily Dan-filled. Because of this, the general feeling is that Phil's immediate family was aware of the relationship while Dan's was not due to the reasons covered in BIG.
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shan
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Also, as others have said, there's a big difference between buying a ready to move-in place with a friend and spending 3 years designing a forever home to live in together. This would not only cost a significant amount more and take much longer but what happens if either or both end up in a serious relationship? And unlike the people referred to in that article, they're both wealthy enough in their own right to buy individual property.
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Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:10 pm
Yet, Phil has said he came out to his family long before doing it on the internet. Do we know for how long? Do you think is possible that Dan may have come out to Phil's family before his own? Because I cannot see Phil saying I am gay (being truth to himself)to his family and at the same time still lying about being in a relationship with Dan or not.
I still think there is a difference between renting as friends and buying and doing up a house that they will both live in. Also if anyone has the money to buy and live in London it’s Zoella. The boys aren’t short a few Bob lol

Its already been said but Phil told us that his family found out because “people he was hanging out with at the time and *cough* staying the night a lot” it’s Dan very obviously who was staying the night a lot for long periods of time from when he left uni till when he moved out of his parents house. We obviously don’t know how comfortable phil was back in 2009 with addressing his relationship with his family. But I feel like his parents didn’t ask many questions and just accepted their sons partner as they did with his brother around the same time. It’s something I would love to know more about. I would love to know if his parents ever really did ask the question. There’s a lot we don’t know. They could of had long discussions about “this is how we are going to address our relationship online. We don’t want to talk about our relationship etc” Phil family knew he was in a relationship with their son
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shan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm Phil said in his coming out video that his parent's figured out he was gay by themselves since he was having 'friends' stay the night a lot. This is mostly assumed to be Dan given the timeline of this story and when he was home between finishing uni and moving to Manchester was heavily Dan-filled. Because of this, the general feeling is that Phil's immediate family was aware of the relationship while Dan's was not due to the reasons covered in BIG.
I gotta think that Dan’s mom at the very least knew or certainly was aware enough to make an educated guess—I imagine that she wanted Dan to come to her on his terms and timeline.

Now whether she suspected they were in a relationship is anyone’s guess, but one thing that always stuck with me is a Christmas card to Dan from ages back that included a joke about northerners and made apologies to Phil—that seemed to me like a sweet and subtle gesture of acknowledging Phil, choosing even a card that made her think of Phil when she got it, even though you get the impression that he hasn’t really ever spent much time with the Howell’s over the years.
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Levitating
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Its already been said but Phil told us that his family found out because “people he was hanging out with at the time and *cough* staying the night a lot” it’s Dan very obviously who was staying the night a lot

I did not know/remember this! I've just had a quick look at the interview with my mom video where Phil's mom is involved and she does acknowledges Dan, which is so cute! I remember Dan referring to a "Katrin" somewhere? Do we know if they have any relationship? After 2013 especially.


@Phantasy I totally buy your theory! It is such a gentle acknowledgement! <3 ;_;



As for them buying a house together, then, I still do not understand why Dan would invite "cute mutual" to slide into his dms :c Mostly, because as a girlfriend/boyfriend it would not be nice to hear him say those things?
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shan
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Phantasy wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:50 pm
shan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm Phil said in his coming out video that his parent's figured out he was gay by themselves since he was having 'friends' stay the night a lot. This is mostly assumed to be Dan given the timeline of this story and when he was home between finishing uni and moving to Manchester was heavily Dan-filled. Because of this, the general feeling is that Phil's immediate family was aware of the relationship while Dan's was not due to the reasons covered in BIG.
I gotta think that Dan’s mom at the very least knew or certainly was aware enough to make an educated guess—I imagine that she wanted Dan to come to her on his terms and timeline.

Now whether she suspected they were in a relationship is anyone’s guess, but one thing that always stuck with me is a Christmas card to Dan from ages back that included a joke about northerners and made apologies to Phil—that seemed to me like a sweet and subtle gesture of acknowledging Phil, choosing even a card that made her think of Phil when she got it, even though you get the impression that he hasn’t really ever spent much time with the Howell’s over the years.
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I totally agree that it was probably not a shock to Dan's mum by the response he read to the email, I moreso meant that Phil's family was actively aware of the relationship.

Do you happen to know what year the card is from? I wonder if it was around the time of TATINOF if it was more to do with their families having met and been seated together at the show? Just something that came to mind but could obviously be completely unrelated! Since we know Dan's parents don't watch his videos it really is a complete mystery how much they were aware of, it would be completely reliant on what Dan shared and if they thought anything of them both being 'single' roomies for a decade.
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shan
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Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:00 pm
Its already been said but Phil told us that his family found out because “people he was hanging out with at the time and *cough* staying the night a lot” it’s Dan very obviously who was staying the night a lot

I did not know/remember this! I've just had a quick look at the interview with my mom video where Phil's mom is involved and she does acknowledges Dan, which is so cute! I remember Dan referring to a "Katrin" somewhere? Do we know if they have any relationship? After 2013 especially.
I think you might mean Kathrine, which is Phil's mum. Dan makes references to her by her name in videos every now and again.
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Phantasy wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:50 pm Now whether she suspected they were in a relationship is anyone’s guess, but one thing that always stuck with me is a Christmas card to Dan from ages back that included a joke about northerners and made apologies to Phil—that seemed to me like a sweet and subtle gesture of acknowledging Phil, choosing even a card that made her think of Phil when she got it, even though you get the impression that he hasn’t really ever spent much time with the Howell’s over the years.
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OMG that card :lol:
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At this point I'm expecting some people to see their marriage certificate/date online and still say that friends can and do get married platonically for tax reasons and it doesn't mean they are in a romantic relationship


Phil, video, when? I'm hoping to see/listen to the first 15 minutes with a clear audio rather than the eco of the recordings pliiiz
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Secretstanner
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liola wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:43 pm At this point I'm expecting some people to see their marriage certificate/date online and still say that friends can and do get married platonically for tax reasons and it doesn't mean they are in a romantic relationship


Phil, video, when? I'm hoping to see/listen to the first 15 minutes with a clear audio rather than the eco of the recordings pliiiz
No doubt in my mind this is going to happen. 5 years time people will be arguing this. After seeing a comment saying “dan and Phil don’t talk anymore but they bought a house together” It’s going to happen. Dan and Phil really are that ‘auntie who’s lived with their friend for 50 years’ to the whole world. And they say we’re reaching.

I second this. For the past 5 days I’ve been like tonight is the night and nothing.
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Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:10 pm (like, luxury level - Zoella has bought her house outside of London).
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here (that people, even millionaires, would only live in Brighton if they can't afford London???) but it looks to me (I don't follow them, but I use Google) that Zoella, a multimillionaire YouTuber, much like D&P (multimillionaire YouTubers) bought a fancy house with her long-term romantic partner.
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Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:10 pm There's an article on the BCC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46895770 exactly about renting as friends because buying in London is extremely expensive (like, luxury level - Zoella has bought her house outside of London).

I am also hesitant about them being a couple because of the gap between their coming outs to their family. I liked the theory of some of you saying that Dan may have chosen to come out exactly because it would have been difficult to justify buying a house with Phil without first telling them about the relationship.

Yet, Phil has said he came out to his family long before doing it on the internet. Do we know for how long? Do you think is possible that Dan may have come out to Phil's family before his own? Because I cannot see Phil saying I am gay (being truth to himself)to his family and at the same time still lying about being in a relationship with Dan or not.

I also remember reading somewhere that Phil had always been more comfortable than Dan about his sexuality during his first years on Youtube, but that he started hiding it because of Dan. If this is true, then it makes me think that his coming out to the Lester family specifically was more about sharing a joy (I want to share more of me with you, mom/dad/Martyn; not lie to you anymore) than a terrifying admission (will you still love me? Is it okay that I'm gay?). Like, he was already comfortable with himself so, even if they had not accepted him, it would have been "fine". Which brings me back to questioning how Phil could have been out with his family without Dan coming out to them too. Relationships are a huge thing, as adults.

I do want them to be together :cry: It would be such a lovely story.
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Alternatively -
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shan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:08 pm
Phantasy wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:50 pm
shan wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm Phil said in his coming out video that his parent's figured out he was gay by themselves since he was having 'friends' stay the night a lot. This is mostly assumed to be Dan given the timeline of this story and when he was home between finishing uni and moving to Manchester was heavily Dan-filled. Because of this, the general feeling is that Phil's immediate family was aware of the relationship while Dan's was not due to the reasons covered in BIG.
I gotta think that Dan’s mom at the very least knew or certainly was aware enough to make an educated guess—I imagine that she wanted Dan to come to her on his terms and timeline.

Now whether she suspected they were in a relationship is anyone’s guess, but one thing that always stuck with me is a Christmas card to Dan from ages back that included a joke about northerners and made apologies to Phil—that seemed to me like a sweet and subtle gesture of acknowledging Phil, choosing even a card that made her think of Phil when she got it, even though you get the impression that he hasn’t really ever spent much time with the Howell’s over the years.
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I totally agree that it was probably not a shock to Dan's mum by the response he read to the email, I moreso meant that Phil's family was actively aware of the relationship.

Do you happen to know what year the card is from? I wonder if it was around the time of TATINOF if it was more to do with their families having met and been seated together at the show? Just something that came to mind but could obviously be completely unrelated! Since we know Dan's parents don't watch his videos it really is a complete mystery how much they were aware of, it would be completely reliant on what Dan shared and if they thought anything of them both being 'single' roomies for a decade.
2014. It appeared in the background of a Festive DITL.

There was a epic bit of detective analysis back in thread 35 to decode the text from the blurry screen grab.
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Wow people, calm down <3 I am myself queer so I am definitely not projecting any heteronormative point of view on them! To the contrary, I was trying to get your opinion because I feel out of touch/ignorant about the many colours of the rainbow - to quote Dan a bit -. Meaning, although Phil has said "gay" and Dan has forced that word onto himself (as to get over a trauma while he doesn't mind what's between your legs, he said), I wonder if there are other "labels" under which their relationship could fit in.

I have met some ace people, aromantics etc, but don't know much about them (I am still learning), but it made me think that maybe I am myself "forcing" the view of a sexual-queer-romantic-monogamy kind of person in them, while the rainbow is much more colorful!
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:welcome: Levitating and Happy New Year, everyone! :newyear:

It will be Happy New Thread for the forum soon, and we need some suggestions for the next thread's name. Post your ideas here!
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Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:33 pm Wow people, calm down <3 I am myself queer so I am definitely not projecting any heteronormative point of view on them! To the contrary, I was trying to get your opinion because I feel out of touch/ignorant about the many colours of the rainbow - to quote Dan a bit -. Meaning, although Phil has said "gay" and Dan has forced that word onto himself (as to get over a trauma while he doesn't mind what's between your legs, he said), I wonder if there are other "labels" under which their relationship could fit in.

I have met some ace people, aromantics etc, but don't know much about them (I am still learning), but it made me think that maybe I am myself "forcing" the view of a sexual-queer-romantic-monogamy kind of person in them, while the rainbow is much more colorful!
For me it's just all the context adding up around them. You're absolutely right that the rainbow is very colorful - but for me there's just no indications that Dan and Phil don't fit the sexual-queer-romantic-monogamy stereotype. There's never even been a single tiny hint of either of them with anyone else, we know Dan enjoys sex on a regular basis (as per his own words) and has one partner he is "obviously" "more than friends" with that he considers his companion through life. We have examples of friends referencing them as a couple (Cornelia saying they'd get married in Vegas, Chris saying they'd get married in 2022, Alli Speed calling them a couple in 2010) we know they vacation exclusively together (unless it's with family-only). Now with this added information about having been looking to purchase a home together for the past three years and actually succeeding in doing so - any one of these things individually might leave room for other speculation but I don't see that all of them combined does.

I think Dan's looking for sexual attention from men in a healthy way (as in, with a clear mind and a sense of knowing himself) is just a result of him being comfortable with himself way he never was before. I think Dan and Phil are far secure enough in their relationship for Dan to want to enjoy being attractive to other people without wanting to sleep with them, and Phil doesn't seem bothered by that even the tiniest little bit. To me that reads to the strength of their commitment, not the lack of one.

I also think a lot of people right now are very sensitive about this topic because while you yourself may not be coming at it from the perspective of projecting heteronormativity, a lot of people in a lot of situations in their life have to deal with assumptions that exclude their sexuality or relationship on a day to day basis. Seeing Dan and Phil comfortable with themselves, comfortable with their boundaries, and being open about the relationship to us as an audience being invalidated by people still doubting it can be a really prickly topic. I think there was room to wonder a few years ago, but right now doing so just reads more like steering hard against assumptions about gay people that no one would hesitate to make about straight people (two people moving into a permanent shared living situation after having been together for a decade plus and having acknowledged both the sexual and the romantic aspects of their relationship) and that's where the sensitivity comes from.
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Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:33 pm I have met some ace people, aromantics etc, but don't know much about them (I am still learning), but it made me think that maybe I am myself "forcing" the view of a sexual-queer-romantic-monogamy kind of person in them, while the rainbow is much more colorful!
The phandom has a disproportionately large percentage of openly ace and arospec people (hi!) relative to the general population, and there's some great acespec and arospec fic, but I do think we largely separate the desire to read ace and/or aro rep into things from the evidence we are presented with (which includes the literal descriptor of their relationship as "more than just romantic" as well as pretty straightforward references to sex as an important/enjoyed part of their lives amidst all the less clear humor).

I think poly theories are a bit more commonly a topic of actual discussion, and they've been pretty thoroughly discussed on this forum and otherwise. I believe (not trying to be reductive about anyone's arguments if people want to get back into it) it usually comes down to the poly side feeling like it would "explain" Dan's fondness for joking about being thirsty/dms and that it's not possible to know from the info we have, while the monogamy side focuses on the difficulties of long-term secrecy, small actual social circle, offhand monogamy-normative comments, and past discussion of Dan's jealousy.
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Templeofshame wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:00 pm
Levitating wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:33 pm I have met some ace people, aromantics etc, but don't know much about them (I am still learning), but it made me think that maybe I am myself "forcing" the view of a sexual-queer-romantic-monogamy kind of person in them, while the rainbow is much more colorful!
The phandom has a disproportionately large percentage of openly ace and arospec people (hi!) relative to the general population, and there's some great acespec and arospec fic, but I do think we largely separate the desire to read ace and/or aro rep into things from the evidence we are presented with (which includes the literal descriptor of their relationship as "more than just romantic" as well as pretty straightforward references to sex as an important/enjoyed part of their lives amidst all the less clear humor).

I think poly theories are a bit more commonly a topic of actual discussion, and they've been pretty thoroughly discussed on this forum and otherwise. I believe (not trying to be reductive about anyone's arguments if people want to get back into it) it usually comes down to the poly side feeling like it would "explain" Dan's fondness for joking about being thirsty/dms and that it's not possible to know from the info we have, while the monogamy side focuses on the difficulties of long-term secrecy, small actual social circle, offhand monogamy-normative comments, and past discussion of Dan's jealousy.
Everyone has already made solid points across the board, but just wanted to throw in one more pro-monogamy argument and that is just: Phil. Literally anything Phil has ever said about his wants and needs in dating. You need only to watch COTU or his Awkward Stories from the Closet.
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I should have stated from the beginning where I was coming from, in terms of the why I doubt their status as a couple <3 I definitely do not want to invalidate anyone's relationships <3

I must also admit that Dan and Phil must be the only people I can think of whose relationship is not clear to me - simply because I am not that into pop/celebrity/youtube culture and I do not question my real-life acquittances/friends - so I don't really have some other couple of friends/lover/etc to compare them to. This means that I do not know if, were they a man and a woman, I would still think of them as "not-lovers" based on their attitudes so far. It's simply tricky.

To go back to the main topic:

- Dan saying "more than romantic" does tell me that he probably consider himself a romantic people, you're right! Which would mean that he still is one today, which therefore raises questions as to how he can be living with someone with whom he's not romantically involved... since a romantic relationship would require him to choose between a romantic-partner and this guy he's bought a house with. Yay. I like where this go.
Although, yeah, all Dan's "thirst for men" still does not sound the most respectful thing to do. It could be a sign of a strong relationship, but why is Phil not doing the same kind of jokes? Or is he? We do not truly know if he's okay with it, as a 'boyfriend'. He does not express his opinion.

- Cornelia saying they will get married in Vegas. What?! <3
Nonetheless, I would not count Chris and Alli's opinions, since I do not think they, at the time of those statements, "knew" that Dan and Phil were gay - at least they were not told.
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I think that it's more plausible to say they might be in an open relationship than them being not together because they are together, There is no doubt they plan on staying by each others side for the rest of their lives because they are deeply in love with eachothers but that doens't exclude anything else. They can be in a romantic and sexual relationship with each others and still see other people, it's not impossible. Of course no one knows because no one needs to know in the first place but i can't wrap my head around Dan saying things like that (i don't need to say which ones because these already stand out to everyone and you know which ones) as being him doing it in a lighthearted way to discover himself but not following with it ? These is many otherway to it and his way seem like he is not joking and actually want to do what he says. I see a lot of people referencing rose and rosie for this and i can't see any of them saying some things dan says in the tone he says it.
There is no invalidation of their relationship by saying they are in an open one and that they are open to other sexual partners, and it is not homophobia. The comments Dan makes leads to thinking he wants to see other sexual partners, if he never had made them, then no one would doubt it this much. We don't doubt it because they are two men, we doubt it because of dan's ambigous comments.
Yes gay people can have a stable commited monogamous relationship, of course, many are in one, Dnp might be in one but couple can also be in polygamy/open relationships and some are, straight or gay, it happens. And it's fine.
Phil might not be that open to other partners, maybe he doesn't care, dan might be open to other partners, maybe not. Them being romantic with eachothers doesn't mean they don't enjoy hook ups. No one knows.
I think that saying anyone is right in this is just stupid because we will never know anyway unless they talk about it, which will never happen. So that's how i think it but i might 100% be wrong and that's fine by me.
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None of us know them personally so we're all just sharing opinions. I personally don't think they're anything but a couple in a monogamy committed relationship and that is also because of Phil's comments about love and dating and his wishes in the past. I also think the background of his family and his parents being obviously very affectionate and monogamous feeds into it. I don't think he would be with someone who wants an open relationship to be fair. Dan has also said things that hinted heavily on him believing in monogamy so I don't take his comments as anything but.. thirst. And also, part of his online persona, just like the overly relatable jokes when talking about anything serious.

My approach to this is that the easiest solution is the most probable solution
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It's commendable that people try to be inclusive of all kinds of relationships, but at this point I feel like we're overshooting the end station of 'just two gay man being in a happy monogamous relationship' by several miles. An open relationship isn't impossible, those are real and valid... but I don't see how to some people that is a more obvious possibility than monogamy just because of some joking comments Dan made. Yes, even factoring in the heteronormative roots of monogamy and the way non cishet people are more likely to reject those standards.
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Code: Select all

the difficulties of long-term secrecy, small actual social circle, offhand monogamy-normative comments, and past discussion of Dan's jealousy.
Would you mind elaborating more on the monogamy-normative comments and Dan's jealousy? :betta:
As for the secrecy, I was just thinking that maybe Dan hasn't have any partner at all (excluding, potentially, Phil) because he was himself struggling to accept his own sexuality? Being over 20 or 25 does not immediately forces you to fall into the urges of sex, so there wouldn't be anything strange in Dan simply avoiding it to save his own facade as a straight man to his family/friends.

At the same time, he said that in his coming out video that in 2009 he did a lot of stuff, so I wonder if he also had different partner none of whom were youtubers so that's who he kept it a secret. Because they say they do not have any friends, but actually, to have a solid relationship of any kind you need to have more than one important person in your life, otherwise it becomes co-dependency and this one is awful and unhealthy.

This makes me realise of how little we know of Dan's and Phil's life outside of the youtube facade and how much more exposure there used to be in the past. Like, all the people listed among Dan and Phil "friends" in this forum are people from the beginning of youtube and only youtubers. They must have developed friendships outside of that!

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Everyone has already made solid points across the board, but just wanted to throw in one more pro-monogamy argument and that is just: Phil. Literally anything Phil has ever said about his wants and needs in dating. You need only to watch COTU or his Awkward Stories from the Closet.
I don't remember what he said. Could you please remind me? <3
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