If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

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human
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If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by human » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:04 pm

So there's a shipper thread and I thought it might be kinda fun to get a non-shipper thread going to see if we have any phanostics amongst us. After all, nobody has to "ship" to be a fan of Dan and Phil, or even Phan.

For me personally, I use "phan" to describe "them" and "them" to me, is more about the chemistry; the fact that they're always together, that they work together, that they're best friends and housemates TRUE! and I don't usually use it to indicate whether or not I think they're in a relationship. I'm sure I'm not alone.

So, c'mon! What bits of "phan proof" really get your goat the most? What would you like to debunk? Why do you think "phan" as a ship is as unlikely as pigs flying across the atlantic to go see Tatinof? Tell all!

For me personally, I just enjoy the conversation so I'm not necessarily a phanostic.

As a first point for the thread, I do think that there have been some amusing things which have come up for analysis in our previous threads on that other site which name I've forgotten which are reaching a bit... I did have fun with the whole "which bed do they sleep in" debate, since Phil reportedly recently bought a brand new memory foam mattress for his bed. But I'm pretty sure Dan's bed is a Prada frame, thus a stupidly expensive frame. So why spend money on an expensive new mattress for Phil's bed if he wasn't going to sleep in it? Alternatively, why spend so much on a bed in Dan's room if they're using Phil's? I think that has probably convinced me they don't share a room really. I'm sure there are some interesting theories about this though!

Also! Not to mention those boys like to prank us, don't they? 8-) I mean, would they really get so much fun out of eluding to being some sort of married couple (like when they bicker in live shows) if they really were together? I can't help but think that if they didn't want people to know they were together, then surely they wouldn't make jokes about it either and would just... get on with being friends?

I want to hear some other's thoughts!

Please no arguments though, guys. It's ok if we don't all agree and everyone is entitled to an opinion about this.




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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by ironic » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:42 pm

It's just the fact that the only shipping which interests me is the shipping of my packages. I've never been invested in other people's relationships. It's partially because I'm a very private person myself but also I just can't be bothered. I can see why it's so appealing, I follow lots of phan tumblrs and I appreciate the cute art, I've even read a few fanfics ('cause they were really well written)... but that's it. As for me they can be anything, friends or lovers, or actors (jk); I like this, whatever 'this' is. I enjoy their videos and it's not like I'll ever get to know them privately so... whatever.

I've seen a lot of phanproof but I take it all with a grain of salt. I decided to believe when they say they're not together. I'm not antiphan though! If they ever come out, I'll be as happy for them as most of the phandom. I just don't think it's inevitably going to happen.

I guess that makes me phan-agnostic? And I don't need to be converted, please and thank you :)
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by ironic » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:04 pm

^ I meant come out as a couple obvs (I can't edit but I feel like I need to precise this)
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by human » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:30 pm

I always assumed antiphan was more "do not believe" and not "would hate the idea of this", lol that's an interesting idea to me.

Tumblr has a lot of interesting phan art, if I'm honest I squee over it quite a bit. And then just hope the boys never see it lol.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by clarinetupmyass » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:35 pm

It just isn't realistic to me. Please don't murder me, but I am phanostic (or is it phagnostic? sounds a little crude :? ..) Whilst I do love to speculate and read all of your beautiful theories, I can't convince myself that they are together or ever were a couple. I will attempt to list my reasonings:

- The most convincing thing to me is that their entire brand is based upon their friendship. Their channel, radio show, book, tour etc. is marketed as two best buddies. I can't imagine that they are illusive enough to structure their entire career around a completely fabricated relationship (yes ofc when people are together they often also consider themselves as best friends), but it rubs me the wrong way to think that everyone in their personal life knows them as a couple, yet they project a completely different idea to the rest of the world. Yes, there is the issue of privacy and keeping personal relationships private, however this would mean that they would have to drastically alter their interactions and behaviour in any public setting (even among friends at risk of being spotted). That just doesn't sound realistic at all (to me at least)

- I made this point in the main threads to which no one responded, but people (especially idealistic young teenagers who see being 20+ as having your life completely sorted) seem to assume that just because they are 24, 29, successful/employed, rich, talented, funny, good looking etc. doesn't mean that they aren't still nerdy and awkward guys who spend time playing guild wards (i'm looking at Mr Dan 1800hours Howell), video & board games, general internet-ting etc. All I'm trying to say is that having a successful professional life does not mean that they automatically have success forming relationships with others. Leading on to my next point...
- Whatever their relationship may be, it's a great one no doubt. They found each other at the right time and obviously bonded very quickly and here we are 7 years later... but again, just because they are so bonded at the hip, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a couple. People become comfortable and complacent with friends (which imo is a good thing, quality over quantity ), and sometimes it's really hard to break out of your comfort zone and trust other people (especially considering the position they are in, it must be difficult to weed out real vs fake friends). To me it seems perfectly normal for 2 best friends to move in together, and once 2012/2013 hit things started getting serious in a professional sense... it only made sense that they stuck together. This point always gets me because I see people say that it's weird that they've been so close for this long.. but i don't see why? They like the same things, work together, attend events together.. it only makes sense at this point in time that they do and it would be weird if they didn't. Also, they are both introverted people - Dan is much more of an open book than Phil, so in that sense it's easier for a lot of us to relate and project onto him. As someone whose personality type seems scarily similar to Dan, it only makes sense to me that he has stuck with someone who he is completely comfortable around.

- Though as we have seen Dan become more comfortable with himself, I am starting to consider that he is truly bisexual (I hate labels) but I am still not 100% convinced.. I don't feel I have any right to comment on this, but I have never ever got the impression that Dan or Phil are genuinely interested in men. Yes there have been comments here and there, as well as the whole deal with Charlie and everything that happened in their early days, but things have certainly changed a lot since 2009/2010 on the internet, and it's hard to put their interactions in context with the internet we have today. This is why I take everything that was said during this time period with a massive grain block of salt

- Just because somebody expresses their love/desire/attraction/appreciation for a member of the opposite sex, it doesn't mean they want to bang them or form an intimate relationship with them. Eg. I know that I am heterosexual (or closer to heterosexual on the spectrum/wheel/clusterfuck that sexuality seems to be. (I really hate labels)). However, I love females. I dream about girls. I find myself staring at girls more than I stare at men. I think the natural female figure is fucking beautiful, and whenever I watch tv/movies/anime/whatever, I find myself fascinated with females and have no objection to expressing some level of attraction for them. Does this make me bisexual? Who knows. But all I'm trying to say is that just because Dan strokes Haru or crushes on Evan Peters, doesn't mean shit.

- Subtle comments here and there. I had a master list on my old computer which I used to rebut phan shippers which has since disappeared. All that comes to mind:
- In conversation, many times D&P resort to using her, or she whenever they speak about relationships. I've just started to understand what a heteronormative society means and I understand that this could just be default, but eg. I remember Dan saying, 'you need a girlfriend', and Phil using her or she in reference to dating. There were a few but I can't remember exactly what was said. Unrelated but also Dan's response to 'dating is hard'.. yes it is.. i feel u :|
- In Tyler and Dan's porn video, in response to the crude ads on the website, Tyler said he doesn't watch straight porn, in which Dan responded 'I'll tell you when something irregular happens'.. this implies to be that Dan watches 'straight porn' and doesn't visit 'gay porn' websites.. however this doesn't mean much considering any straight, gay, or anything-in-between person can obviously watch whatever they like.. so not valid?

- General vibe. I know this can be rebutted very easily, but apart from expressing their general support for the LGBTQ community, it isn't something I feel either of them identify with or are invested in. Obviously this could be me completely misjudging them and is something that either of them just aren't comfortable talking about... but just a thing.
- I feel really uncomfortable even saying this because I am not trying to play into typical 'gender roles' or whatever.. but hear me out. They certainly aren't typically 'masculine' or what the average British guy is like.. an example that comes to mind is Louise's One Direction vlog where marcus, joe and alfie are sitting together playing FIFA, and Dan is sitting with Louise and Zoe eating pringles.. I remember reading the comments and seeing a massive shitstorm over one person assuming Dan was gay because he doesn't fit in with 'the guys'... but I don't see it this way at all. He is nerdy, awkward, gamer/artistic type. I'm not doing a great job describing him or the way I see this but just because someone doesn't fit in with the average plebsjoe, there is no reason to automatically assume that he is into the opposite sex... I don't know I think that a lot of people see his bold fashion choices (spikey shoes 8-) ) and some of his other interests, fashion choices etc. as 100% confirmation that he is bisexual or gay.. and to me this doesn't make any sense. Does this make any sense??

- In response to the fact that Dan has stopped flat out denying that he is gay (and that ignoring early formspring answers he never explicitly identified himself as bisexual).. i do think that he stopped doing that for branding purposes. Yes, like I stated above, D&P are known and marketed as best buds... but obviously Phan and the shipping community are deeply ingrained in their brand.. not disclosing anything about their sexuality maintains the sense of mystery (essentially the reason we at IDB are so invested in their lives :tongue: )

- Voldy is not gospel. I see people say all the time that the shipping community wasn't massive at the time of the video, but people seem to forget that youtube in general also wasn't nearly the scale it is today. Eg. If they noticed a few recurring 'shippers' commenting on their videos together, that alone could've prompted them to troll their viewers. I vaguely remember 2009/2010 being a turning point for the shipping/fandom/tumblr community reaching more of a mainstream audience at the time, so it makes perfect sense that they planned something along those lines. But it's a cute video which I obviously don't have saved on my computer

I feel like I have forgotten many things, but at the end of the day this is all just wild speculation. I could be completely wrong. I think we all need to remember that it is very easy to become trapped in one way of thinking to the point where we become delusional... so I think we all need to be as open minded as possible and understand that they are two very smart individuals who know how to market themselves and calculate each and every public move. As of right now, there is nothing that compels me to believe that Dan and Phil are a couple or ever have been.
The end

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by ironic » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:47 pm

human wrote:I always assumed antiphan was more "do not believe" and not "would hate the idea of this", lol that's an interesting idea to me.
I meant antiphan as 'I'm 100% convinced they're not together'. For me it can also mean 'would hate the idea of this'. I didn't consider people using it as 'do not believe'. Now I see my whole sentence might be a bit unclear. Ugh, words. :?
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by clarinetupmyass » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:02 pm

And please... I know I probably seem like a basic ass considering i only discovered website you know who quite recently... but i want to hear some rebuttal to my thoughts.. try to convince me phannies

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by kooshka » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:06 pm

I'm interested in how people who thing they never were a couple/even had a fling; how do you view those very early (2009/10 I think?) tweets & formspring answers? The whole thing with cherry, "Uma Thurman just watched me have sex", "if I had a baby with the last person I kissed there would be a serious breach in the laws of biology" etc.? That's the thing that convinced me that there was def something going on. Even if the voldy vid was a prank, those answers/tweets were made at a very early point of their fame so I don't think they were made to mess with the shippers, even if the video was.

I do not mean to dismiss your opinions, just interested. :D I mean I personally ship them, yes, but I'm not 100% convinced they are together anymore, so I do think those opinions are very valid also. clarinetupmyass's post was a good explanation and I agree with some of those bits regarding that they honestly just might be best buds nowadays.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by pearshaped34 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:27 pm

I definitely do ship Phan in the sense that the idea of them together makes me happy and I'd love it if it turned out to be real however I am not one of those people who are convinced it is a real life thing and I'd guess this is the thread to state why;

1. The lack of public outings (other then Charlieskies various attention seeking hints where he never actually confirms anything).
If they are a couple then I'd expect these days they would be very careful about who they let know but if you believe the old social media stuff and Voldy (kissing on the fountain at a YT gathering) it seems they were essentially an out couple at one point. And if they were just kissing and generally being coupley at old youtube stuff then a lot of randoms knew about them so Dan and Phil have to have been extremely lucky that none of these people have outed them for a bit of attention from the phandom.

2. The sleeping arrangements.
Them having separate bedrooms wouldn't be weird for me even if they were an out couple as when I used to live with my now ex I used one of the spare rooms (which had a bed in for guests) as my dressing room rather then trying to fit all of our joint stuff in the one bedroom so the majority of my clothes, toiletries and various other crap was in that room so to look at it was essentially like we has separate rooms even though we slept together in the one room. For Dan and Phil who not only have a lot of stuff each but also use their rooms as filming space then this seems like a perfectly logical arrangement.
So it's not that they have the two set up bedrooms that makes me think they are not a couple it's everything that goes along with that like the various comments about hearing one another through the walls at night (and other similar comments suggesting they sleep apart), getting to see Phil waking Dan up from his own bed in ditl videos, them making up the office bed for Louise when she stayed over, them always having twin hotel rooms etc etc. Also I could be wrong here but when they lived in Manchester I'm sure the bed in Dan's room went from being a single to a double, why get a bigger bed if it's not being used for sleep?
Yes an argument could be made that this could all be a part of maintaining the rouse but it's not like it's just the odd throwaway comment they've put in here and there, if this is all a rouse they put a decent amount of effort into ensuring it's maintained. And for me some of it seems like it would be unnecessary effort, like when Louise stayed over (Concert Fun | Sprinkle of Chatter) surely a comment she'd be sleeping on the office bed would be sufficient cover-up if that's all it was, them making up the bed so it could be shown on camera seems a bit extreme to me.
So yeah there is enough evidence they sleep in different beds to have me fairly convinced.

3. All the denials from Dan, and how ummm... shall we say ?passionate? they were, it's not like he has just said we are not a couple and we are not gay etc. He has went into passionate rants stating how much it annoys him that people even think they are a couple. As well as Dan's comments there are also various comments that have been made by their friends have made regarding the idea they are a couple that have knocked my inner shipper back down to reality on occassion.

4. Dan had literally compared the idea of performing oral sex on Phil as being the same is performing oral sex on your grandmother. Yes this is technically a part of number 3 but this is my list and for me this deserves a place on it's own.

I'm sure there have been other things too but these are the main reasons (coming to mind right now) why I'm not convinced by Phan.

I do want to note here that I could also make a similar list (that would probably be much longer lol) as to all the things they do (or have did) that makes me think they might be real (and might at some point in the other thead) but this is not the place for those arguments.
Last edited by pearshaped34 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by vincentian » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:28 pm

clarinetupmyass wrote: Though as we have seen Dan become more comfortable with himself, I am starting to consider that he is truly bisexual (I hate labels) but I am still not 100% convinced.. I don't feel I have any right to comment on this, but I have never ever got the impression that Dan or Phil are genuinely interested in men. Yes there have been comments here and there, as well as the whole deal with Charlie and everything that happened in their early days, but things have certainly changed a lot since 2009/2010 on the internet, and it's hard to put their interactions in context with the internet we have today. This is why I take everything that was said during this time period with a massive grain block of salt
clarinetupmyass wrote: Just because somebody expresses their love/desire/attraction/appreciation for a member of the opposite sex, it doesn't mean they want to bang them or form an intimate relationship with them. Eg. I know that I am heterosexual (or closer to heterosexual on the spectrum/wheel/clusterfuck that sexuality seems to be. (I really hate labels)). However, I love females. I dream about girls. I find myself staring at girls more than I stare at men. I think the natural female figure is fucking beautiful, and whenever I watch tv/movies/anime/whatever, I find myself fascinated with females and have no objection to expressing some level of attraction for them. Does this make me bisexual? Who knows. But all I'm trying to say is that just because Dan strokes Haru or crushes on Evan Peters, doesn't mean shit.
clarinetupmyass wrote:I think we all need to remember that it is very easy to become trapped in one way of thinking to the point where we become delusional... so I think we all need to be as open minded as possible and understand that they are two very smart individuals who know how to market themselves and calculate each and every public move.
I’m not phagnostic, but I like your post and the arguments seem reasonable, I especially agree with the quoted ones. I think they are often overlooked. Though if at least half of people on this forum are phan af, I guess always making disclaimers and remembering to say that the non-phan interpretation of this or that is also possible simply takes some fun out of dicussion? So people might not bother, while still keeping them in mind. I agree, being open-minded is always a good thing. :)
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by phamnotof » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:46 pm

pearshaped34 wrote: 4. Dan had literally compared the idea of performing oral sex on Phil as being the same is performing oral sex on your grandmother. Yes this is technically a part of number 3 but this is my list and for me this deserves a place on it's own.
I might be as phan af as they come, but oh god, really? That is hilarious. Do you happen to know where that's from? I kinda wanna see it.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Anonymousse » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:52 pm

First of all, let me tell you that I LOVE Phan agnostics, because you make the conversation a lot more in-depth.
pearshaped34 wrote: 2. The sleeping arrangements.
...
So it's not that they have the two set up bedrooms that makes me think they are not a couple it's everything that goes along with that like the various comments about hearing one another through the walls at night (and other similar comments suggesting they sleep apart), getting to see Phil waking Dan up from his own bed in ditl videos, them making up the office bed for Louise when she stayed over, them always having twin hotel rooms etc etc. Also I could be wrong here but when they lived in Manchester I'm sure the bed in Dan's room went from being a single to a double, why get a bigger bed if it's not being used for sleep?
Two points here I disagree with and I'm sorry about my passion about it because it kind of really annoys me how many times I've been put down for wanting such a thing.(so It's not an attack, It's just me re-reacting to being shamed)

1) I WOULD KILL to have separate beds, for F sakes I HATE that It became a norm to sleep in the same bed as your SO. It doesn't mean I love them any less or that i don't like to snuggle, I just need my own space to roam around in my bed and even a different room if my sleeping schedule is different.

This want is not uncommon, It's just our stupid society telling us what we ought to make out of our love-lives so this is an argument I'm not buying. Also sleeping in separate rooms and having a healthy relationship, is also common, but not talked about. People have different needs, they need different mattresses, pillows, sleep schedules... Some might snore and the other would be trying to murder them through their sleep.

Also now that I thought about it... Maybe this is their way of being "not so joined at the hip"? Like people say they do everything together but if they spend their days separate rooms and sleep in separate beds, it might work out a lot better than constantly having to be with one person.

2) Lots of people have twin beds that remain not-used-for-sex.


Sorry for the crappy English.
But who the fuck am I kidding? I'm mostly just the rotting banana peel at the bottom of the phan trash can who genuinely gets excited over the thought of them snuggling in bed. Idgaf let a bitch live
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by human » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:57 pm

phamnotof wrote:
pearshaped34 wrote: 4. Dan had literally compared the idea of performing oral sex on Phil as being the same is performing oral sex on your grandmother. Yes this is technically a part of number 3 but this is my list and for me this deserves a place on it's own.
I might be as phan af as they come, but oh god, really? That is hilarious. Do you happen to know where that's from? I kinda wanna see it.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by enya » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:15 pm

There were already good points mentioned, I just want to add the following:
even if you assume Phan is/was real and Dan only denied it because they wanted to keep the relationship a secret I don't understand why he would go as far as calling the idea of Phan ridiculous (“you have no idea how ridiculous the idea of Phan is to our friends and everyone we know in real life“) as well as calling fans delusional and creepy for believing in it (e.g.“the truth and reality is clouded by your craving for it to be real“/“it's just what you want to believe“). It seems unnatural to me and is pretty disrespectful to say these things if the people you are criticizing are actually right (that means Phan has ever been or was still real at that point in time). He could have simply denied Phan and expressed his frustration about the whole shipping situation (importance in the fandom etc.) without calling fans delusional. He could have said the vday video was a prank without calling fans dumb for believing it was real. It seems strange to be so rude if the fans were actually right (the vday is real) and I don't want to believe Dan is like this.
There is also a tweet by Catrific “I always think of you as my only straight guy friend that knows more about fashion than most girls“. Of course one could argue that she might not know about their sexualities/relationship but she is a close friend and I wanted to mention it.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by syzygy » Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:52 pm

just wanna jump in to discuss the comments made re: sexuality.
clarinetupmyass wrote:I don't feel I have any right to comment on this, but I have never ever got the impression that Dan or Phil are genuinely interested in men.
what would you say genuine interest is, then? not an attack - just interested as to where you see the line is drawn between mere appreciation and genuine attraction, especially considering the way dan fawns over his female/male crushes is very similar. i could maybe understand the uncertainty with phil, where he has far fewer male-specific declarations of attraction (although still plentiful - see the attraction thread), but to dismiss dan's ever-increasing male attraction references doesn't make much sense to me.
clarinetupmyass wrote:- Just because somebody expresses their love/desire/attraction/appreciation for a member of the opposite sex, it doesn't mean they want to bang them or form an intimate relationship with them. Eg. I know that I am heterosexual (or closer to heterosexual on the spectrum/wheel/clusterfuck that sexuality seems to be. (I really hate labels)). However, I love females. I dream about girls. I find myself staring at girls more than I stare at men. I think the natural female figure is fucking beautiful, and whenever I watch tv/movies/anime/whatever, I find myself fascinated with females and have no objection to expressing some level of attraction for them. Does this make me bisexual? Who knows. But all I'm trying to say is that just because Dan strokes Haru or crushes on Evan Peters, doesn't mean shit.
with this line of thinking, surely dan crushing on jennifer lawrence, st vincent etc. also doesn't mean shit. i'm bisexual and i have to deal with people dismissing my relationships with women as transient/a phase/not as 'real' as my relationships with men, so maybe this hits a nerve, but i don't see how we can default dan to being heterosexual when nowadays his comments about being attracted to men outweigh his comments about women.

i think it is also important to consider that dan is hyper-aware of his audience and is very much in tune with 'social justice' topics. it would be highly surprising to me if dan was making these overt statements of male attraction if he were straight - it would be disingenuous to his audience to be so ambiguous about his sexual orientation if he were in fact straight.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by pearshaped34 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:11 pm

Anonymousse wrote: Two points here I disagree with and I'm sorry about my passion about it because it kind of really annoys me how many times I've been put down for wanting such a thing.(so It's not an attack, It's just me re-reacting to being shamed)
1) I WOULD KILL to have separate beds, for F sakes I HATE that It became a norm to sleep in the same bed as your SO. It doesn't mean I love them any less or that i don't like to snuggle, I just need my own space to roam around in my bed and even a different room if my sleeping schedule is different.
This want is not uncommon, It's just our stupid society telling us what we ought to make out of our love-lives so this is an argument I'm not buying. Also sleeping in separate rooms and having a healthy relationship, is also common, but not talked about. People have different needs, they need different mattresses, pillows, sleep schedules... Some might snore and the other would be trying to murder them through their sleep.
Also now that I thought about it... Maybe this is their way of being "not so joined at the hip"? Like people say they do everything together but if they spend their days separate rooms and sleep in separate beds, it might work out a lot better than constantly having to be with one person.
2) Lots of people have twin beds that remain not-used-for-sex.
Sorry for the crappy English.
I do agree it is entirely possible they are a couple who just choose to sleep in separate beds for whatever reasons (and there are actually a lot of reasons why happy couples would want to sleep alone).
And while not the norm it's also not an incredibly rare thing either so I do accept that this is a perfectly valid counter argument.

However that being said I have considered that argument before myself and even just considering it made me feel like I'd crossed the invisible line into deluded shipperville where anything that doesn't fit with my ship being real can easily be explained away as them just not conforming to traditional couple behaviour. I don't mean this nastily and hope you don't take it this way but this is the kind of argument I know if I read regarding a ship I personally didn't support I'd write off as being delusional shipper logic.

So for that reason while I think you are making a perfectly valid argument it's not one I'm personally willing to accept when it comes to two people who have denied being a couple.

And Anonymousse there is nothing wrong with your English you explain yourself better then I do. :)

(I'd like to add that I love Phan- for someone who is probably unhealthily obsessed with them together I'm starting to worry how anti-phan I sound here lol. I just have a lot of doubts that they are a real thing beyond friendship and this thread seems the place to express them.)

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Anonymousse » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:34 pm

pearshaped34 wrote: So for that reason while I think you are making a perfectly valid argument it's not one I'm personally willing to accept when it comes to two people who have denied being a couple.

(I'd like to add that I love Phan- for someone who is probably unhealthily obsessed with them together I'm starting to worry how anti-Phan I sound here lol. I just have a lot of doubts that they are a real thing beyond friendship and this thread seems the place to express them.)
1)I can understand it how it seems to be kinda "far fetched" with them but the reason why it gets me every time is that some anti-Phan peeps imply that "lovers sleep in the same bed". Esp when they have even themselves barely been in relationships to know their preference.

Yes it can be anti-Phan proof but at the same time it doesn't prove that two people don't love each-other if they don't sleep in the same bed.

2)It's okay to be Phan-agnostic for sure because (to quote another youtuber) "nobody really knows" if Phan is real except for a few closer friends, family(possibly?) and Dan and Phil themselves.

----

How about this theory:

Phan is not real, but Dan and Phil ARE both Bi. Neither can come out because then they would find it 100 times harder to disprove Phan.

Waiting for responses ;)

But who the fuck am I kidding? I'm mostly just the rotting banana peel at the bottom of the phan trash can who genuinely gets excited over the thought of them snuggling in bed. Idgaf let a bitch live
- Manged


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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by esso » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:38 pm

clarinetupmyass wrote:- Just because somebody expresses their love/desire/attraction/appreciation for a member of the opposite sex, it doesn't mean they want to bang them or form an intimate relationship with them. Eg. I know that I am heterosexual (or closer to heterosexual on the spectrum/wheel/clusterfuck that sexuality seems to be. (I really hate labels)). However, I love females. I dream about girls. I find myself staring at girls more than I stare at men. I think the natural female figure is fucking beautiful, and whenever I watch tv/movies/anime/whatever, I find myself fascinated with females and have no objection to expressing some level of attraction for them. Does this make me bisexual? Who knows. But all I'm trying to say is that just because Dan strokes Haru or crushes on Evan Peters, doesn't mean shit.
I agree with this so much . I posted this question on the main thread, but I really never understand why there's so much reference/reliance on the attraction thread. I'm not saying Dan is necessarily this way, but I definitely express incredibly vocal attraction for both sexes and I fall on the asexual spectrum. Part of this is just the language I use tends to be incredibly exaggerated. If expressing more male attraction is Dan's covert way of coming out, great. If it isn't, that's also great.

Edit: Dismissing the attraction mentions doesn't necessarily mean I'm labeling Dan as heterosexual. I just don't think it's good enough evidence.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by arwen » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:50 pm

This is going to sound weird but I feel like there are two versions of Dan and Phil in my head. I personally don't believe they are romantically and/or sexually involved with each other and I don't think they ever have been, but when people talk about them as if they were a couple, whether it's on forums, YT or Tumblr, I get sucked into other people's beliefs. I kinda lose sense of who they are until I take a step back from the theories and then I'm like, wait, no, that doesn't add up with my perception of them at all.

Zero sense made, I'm sorry. Basically, I'll gladly join in on the shipping discussion, the conspiracy theories and the looking for clues, but at the end of the day, it doesn't add up to how I perceive them and I can't imagine ever finding any evidence. They just don't have that sort of chemistry to me. Of course a lot of their behaviour and actions read as if they were a couple since they are so close and do very little to uphold some sort of bro/lad vibe (which is kind of required for guys in order not to seem interested in each other), but imo, none of the digging ever proves anything further than the fact that they're best friends.
kooshka wrote:I'm interested in how people who thing they never were a couple/even had a fling; how do you view those very early (2009/10 I think?) tweets & formspring answers? The whole thing with cherry, "Uma Thurman just watched me have sex", "if I had a baby with the last person I kissed there would be a serious breach in the laws of biology" etc.? That's the thing that convinced me that there was def something going on. Even if the voldy vid was a prank, those answers/tweets were made at a very early point of their fame so I don't think they were made to mess with the shippers, even if the video was.
Just my two cents on the topic of the 2009 flirting. I'm younger than them (two years younger than Dan), female, from a different country and obviously, my overall experience of that time will differ from theirs but I recognize sooo much of that behaviour from how I acted at the time. I had two internet friends, both girls, who I'd flirt shamelessly with for years online (from 2007 and onward, even after we met irl). So much sappy stuff, so much sexual stuff. One of those girls is my best friend today, and the way we interact and talk to each other now is nothing like the way we spoke back then. We're not attracted to each other, we were never in love and it was never to amount to anything, it was just part of how our corner of the internet acted. The jargon was just different back then, and we copied the people around us.

Heavily projecting myself and my experiences onto Deppy, I am in no way saying this is what it was like for Dan and Phil, but I do see so much of my own old internet life and my old online friendships in their friendship. So, you know, just... sharing. It's why I can't see 2009-messages as proof of anything, especially as it's been debunked by Dan.

Also, YES, clarinetupmyass (a sequence of words I never thought I'd ever type out) to your point about Voldy. I keep seeing people dismiss shipping culture at YT at the time, which I genuinly don't get. Frerard was at its height in 2007/2008 and was the most popular ship. By 2008/09, general shipping and fan fiction were definitely quite mainstream online, it was everywhere, celebrities or not. So, for two attractive, British boys with an online following who flirted and acted sappy towards each other and attracted viewers from bandom, to NOT have a strong little shipping corner in their audience? No way. There must have been, and they must've seen it. So when they say Voldy was made to mess with shippers, I believe them, and I believe the shipping frustrated and irritated them. It's one thing to act a certain way with your friends, but it's a completely different thing for other people to take over and fetishize it.

Regarding sexuality, Phil won't even go near the subject and Dan's clearly enjoying his ambiguous vibe so I just... I just give up. I give up, I don't know.

why do i type so much, i dont understand
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by sweetmm » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:55 am

Cause you don't need to ship daddy with mum ;)
Image

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by greatnessflicker » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:05 am

I'm phan af (or at least that they were "more-than-friends"* in the past at some point) but I can also see why the tweets from 2009/2010 might not hold any weight, and, along a similar line, how you could explain the valentines day video as a prank to fans.

However, if any phanostics have seen the valentines day video, how do you explain phil's behavior? I just can't see it as anything other than genuine. That, or phil deserves an Oscar for acting. Genuinely curious and interested in your responses!

*platonic relationships and friendships are not less than any other relationship etc etc i just meant that their relationship had a dimension (romantic or sexual or whatever) usually lacking in "normal" friendships

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by blueapple_x » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:25 am

I consider myself phan agnostic; I go through phases of believing and not believing in phan (it's very annoying for me lol). But I do find them cute together. As many people here have demonstrated, shipping them/wanting them together doesn't mean you 100% believe they truly are together. And contrary to popular belief, pointing out cute things they say/do doesn't necessarily mean you consider it as phan proof.

Re: Dan's sexuality:

I've always wondered...if Dan was/is straight and he very well knew that, why wouldn't he be more official in his statements when questioned about his sexuality? Instead of saying "I was very prone to attention seeking", why not deny bisexuality in the same overt way he denied homosexuality? People definitely asked him if he was bi just as much--if not more--as they asked if he was gay. Nowadays if either came out as straight they'd be accused of queerbaiting, but back then, Dan didn't seem afraid of that happening considering the fact that in one particular rant he fully said that Phil and him used to joke around (like how PJ and Chris did), so, if he wasn't afraid to admit it was all for show/jokes, why couldn't he just state that he's straight and get that out of the way? Obviously someone's sexuality shouldn't matter, but the question is: why would a straight person continually feel the need to be ambiguous by only implying that they're straight but not ever saying it?

I suspect it's either because 1) Dan was unsure of his sexuality, 2) he very well knew he was bi and didn't want to outright lie about that for w/e reason (maybe bc he's a bad liar lol), or 3) only Phil is bisexual and if Dan admitted he was straight it would put more pressure on Phil to come out (I would love to discuss more about this particular theory as it's not one that's brought up too often)

For those who suspect Dan is straight and that's why you think Phan isn't real, what are your thoughts on the lack of overt denial of bisexuality back then? (As I've already said, nowadays it may be because they don't want to be accused of queerbaiting but back then I don't think they were afraid of that since 1) Dan said it was always a joke, 2)he implied he was straight and 3) he directly denied being gay). Whether or not they're bi, they heavily insinuated they were in a relationship and Dan said it was all for jokes. So why did he not admit he's straight if he is/was straight?

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by coffee pig » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:26 am

clarinetupmyass wrote:
- I made this point in the main threads to which no one responded, but people (especially idealistic young teenagers who see being 20+ as having your life completely sorted) seem to assume that just because they are 24, 29, successful/employed, rich, talented, funny, good looking etc. doesn't mean that they aren't still nerdy and awkward guys who spend time playing guild wards (i'm looking at Mr Dan 1800hours Howell), video & board games, general internet-ting etc. All I'm trying to say is that having a successful professional life does not mean that they automatically have success forming relationships with others.
I'm just going to respond to to this as someone who is more on the 'believer' side of phanagnostic, though I always like to keep an open mind. I'm just assuming that it would be okay to post my opinions on this thread as well? I do agree with you on the fact that a successful professional life does not equal a successful love life, but I find it a bit odd that neither of them have been linked romantically to anyone else since they met. Not even rumors that could be backed-up with some sort of argument (I'm not counting the Danrific/Philrific rumors here, which is only based on the fact that Cat is one of the only girls that Dan and Phil hang out with on a regular basis.) I'm fairly certain neither of them are asexual, I can't imagine that either of them would be happy with being single for seven years. Dan could easily play up the whole #relatable card in his videos by talking about how 'awkward and forever alone' he is, but yet he never does. Before he met Phil, he essentially had three girlfriends back to back since the age of twelve. Yes, Dan is a bit of an awkward nerd, but it's definitely never been hard for him to get a girlfriend. It seems weird that he would go from being constantly in relationships to being single for so long.
They get recognized almost every time they go out in public, and neither of them have been spotted in public with a date, well, ever. I don't think it's realistic to assume that they would be able to keep up a secret relationship for long with a stranger without someone finding out...as we all know from this forum, the Phandom is essentially a massive group of stalkers.
- Though as we have seen Dan become more comfortable with himself, I am starting to consider that he is truly bisexual (I hate labels) but I am still not 100% convinced.. I don't feel I have any right to comment on this, but I have never ever got the impression that Dan or Phil are genuinely interested in men.

- General vibe. I know this can be rebutted very easily, but apart from expressing their general support for the LGBTQ community, it isn't something I feel either of them identify with or are invested in. Obviously this could be me completely misjudging them and is something that either of them just aren't comfortable talking about... but just a thing.
I think it's interesting to see that some people have such a different perspective on things, because both Dan and Phil do ping my gaydar (they always have, even back in 2009 when I first started watching them and didn't particularly care if Phan was a thing). Dan does talk about LGBT+ stuff from time time in a way that makes me think he is more than an ally, like when he talked about tearing up when he watched Connor Franta's coming out video in a liveshow. I also remember him talking about watching Lana Wachowski's acceptance speech about being transgender, and he was impressed by how much she was doing for the 'community' (his own words.)
Also, just because you are LGBT+ does not necessarily you have to be an activist/take particular interest in the community. I've never marched in a pride parade or get involved with LGBT+ stuff, doesn't make me any less queer. I think it's a small fraction of my personality, and I have other interests I find more important, which I imagine is how Dan and Phil see things.
Idk, as a bisexual person (not that this makes me an expert or anything) I can't help but pick up on how Dan gets a bit tense around attractive guys (like the Harries twins and Connor Franta. Remember when he called Connor 'daddy'? ) He taks about men in a pretty sexually explicit way, way more than just 'I find this person aesthetically pleasing.' People make the argument that he could just be joking, but if that's the case it's a pretty long-running joke, as he's been doing this for years.

Sorry this turned into an essay.
{ bisexual Philophile and respectful stalker since 2008 }

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by spaceguitar » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:31 am

arwen wrote:This is going to sound weird but I feel like there are two versions of Dan and Phil in my head. I personally don't believe they are romantically and/or sexually involved with each other and I don't think they ever have been, but when people talk about them as if they were a couple, whether it's on forums, YT or Tumblr, I get sucked into other people's beliefs. I kinda lose sense of who they are until I take a step back from the theories and then I'm like, wait, no, that doesn't add up with my perception of them at all.

Zero sense made, I'm sorry. Basically, I'll gladly join in on the shipping discussion, the conspiracy theories and the looking for clues, but at the end of the day, it doesn't add up to how I perceive them and I can't imagine ever finding any evidence. They just don't have that sort of chemistry to me. Of course a lot of their behaviour and actions read as if they were a couple since they are so close and do very little to uphold some sort of bro/lad vibe (which is kind of required for guys in order not to seem interested in each other), but imo, none of the digging ever proves anything further than the fact that they're best friends.
kooshka wrote:I'm interested in how people who thing they never were a couple/even had a fling; how do you view those very early (2009/10 I think?) tweets & formspring answers? The whole thing with cherry, "Uma Thurman just watched me have sex", "if I had a baby with the last person I kissed there would be a serious breach in the laws of biology" etc.? That's the thing that convinced me that there was def something going on. Even if the voldy vid was a prank, those answers/tweets were made at a very early point of their fame so I don't think they were made to mess with the shippers, even if the video was.
Just my two cents on the topic of the 2009 flirting. I'm younger than them (two years younger than Dan), female, from a different country and obviously, my overall experience of that time will differ from theirs but I recognize sooo much of that behaviour from how I acted at the time. I had two internet friends, both girls, who I'd flirt shamelessly with for years online (from 2007 and onward, even after we met irl). So much sappy stuff, so much sexual stuff. One of those girls is my best friend today, and the way we interact and talk to each other now is nothing like the way we spoke back then. We're not attracted to each other, we were never in love and it was never to amount to anything, it was just part of how our corner of the internet acted. The jargon was just different back then, and we copied the people around us.

Heavily projecting myself and my experiences onto Deppy, I am in no way saying this is what it was like for Dan and Phil, but I do see so much of my own old internet life and my old online friendships in their friendship. So, you know, just... sharing. It's why I can't see 2009-messages as proof of anything, especially as it's been debunked by Dan.

Also, YES, clarinetupmyass (a sequence of words I never thought I'd ever type out) to your point about Voldy. I keep seeing people dismiss shipping culture at YT at the time, which I genuinly don't get. Frerard was at its height in 2007/2008 and was the most popular ship. By 2008/09, general shipping and fan fiction were definitely quite mainstream online, it was everywhere, celebrities or not. So, for two attractive, British boys with an online following who flirted and acted sappy towards each other and attracted viewers from bandom, to NOT have a strong little shipping corner in their audience? No way. There must have been, and they must've seen it. So when they say Voldy was made to mess with shippers, I believe them, and I believe the shipping frustrated and irritated them. It's one thing to act a certain way with your friends, but it's a completely different thing for other people to take over and fetishize it.

Regarding sexuality, Phil won't even go near the subject and Dan's clearly enjoying his ambiguous vibe so I just... I just give up. I give up, I don't know.

why do i type so much, i dont understand
I totally feel this. My perception of D+P was very shaped by reading on voldy forum. Most people believed that they were together. I'm not sure what I would have thought if I had just experienced them independently of that.
This might sound kind of mean, and I'm young so by nature ignorant, but tbh the thought of D+P not being together makes me sad for them. I just feel like if they are looking for romantic relationships, this is the time in their life that they should be doing that, and hanging with each other 24/7 is not sustainable. Like people can say 'i love their relationship, romantic or platonic!' a million times, and I just don't feel the same way. I mean I like them as friends of course, but it's not the same. Weird af as I'm ace and not likely to ever settle down (this just got personal). Anyway...
I'm actually kinda cool with the idea of them being queerplatonic though. Yeah, this post doesn't make any sense to me either.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by spaceguitar » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:34 am

bedhead91 wrote:
clarinetupmyass wrote:
- I made this point in the main threads to which no one responded, but people (especially idealistic young teenagers who see being 20+ as having your life completely sorted) seem to assume that just because they are 24, 29, successful/employed, rich, talented, funny, good looking etc. doesn't mean that they aren't still nerdy and awkward guys who spend time playing guild wards (i'm looking at Mr Dan 1800hours Howell), video & board games, general internet-ting etc. All I'm trying to say is that having a successful professional life does not mean that they automatically have success forming relationships with others.
I'm just going to respond to to this as someone who is more on the 'believer' side of phanagnostic, though I always like to keep an open mind. I'm just assuming that it would be okay to post my opinions on this thread as well? I do agree with you on the fact that a successful professional life does not equal a successful love life, but I find it a bit odd that neither of them have been linked romantically to anyone else since they met. Not even rumors that could be backed-up with some sort of argument (I'm not counting the Danrific/Philrific rumors here, which is only based on the fact that Cat is one of the only girls that Dan and Phil hang out with on a regular basis.) I'm fairly certain neither of them are asexual, I can't imagine that either of them would be happy with being single for seven years. Dan could easily play up the whole #relatable card in his videos by talking about how 'awkward and forever alone' he is, but yet he never does. Before he met Phil, he essentially had three girlfriends back to back since the age of twelve. Yes, Dan is a bit of an awkward nerd, but it's definitely never been hard for him to get a girlfriend. It seems weird that he would go from being constantly in relationships to being single for so long.
They get recognized almost every time they go out in public, and neither of them have been spotted in public with a date, well, ever. I don't think it's realistic to assume that they would be able to keep up a secret relationship for long with a stranger without someone finding out...as we all know from this forum, the Phandom is essentially a massive group of stalkers.
- Though as we have seen Dan become more comfortable with himself, I am starting to consider that he is truly bisexual (I hate labels) but I am still not 100% convinced.. I don't feel I have any right to comment on this, but I have never ever got the impression that Dan or Phil are genuinely interested in men.

- General vibe. I know this can be rebutted very easily, but apart from expressing their general support for the LGBTQ community, it isn't something I feel either of them identify with or are invested in. Obviously this could be me completely misjudging them and is something that either of them just aren't comfortable talking about... but just a thing.
I think it's interesting to see that some people have such a different perspective on things, because both Dan and Phil do ping my gaydar (they always have, even back in 2009 when I first started watching them and didn't particularly care if Phan was a thing). Dan does talk about LGBT+ stuff from time time in a way that makes me think he is more than an ally, like when he talked about tearing up when he watched Connor Franta's coming out video in a liveshow. I also remember him talking about watching Lana Wachowski's acceptance speech about being transgender, and he was impressed by how much she was doing for the 'community' (his own words.)
Also, just because you are LGBT+ does not necessarily you have to be an activist/take particular interest in the community. I've never marched in a pride parade or get involved with LGBT+ stuff, doesn't make me any less queer. I think it's a small fraction of my personality, and I have other interests I find more important, which I imagine is how Dan and Phil see things.
Idk, as a bisexual person (not that this makes me an expert or anything) I can't help but pick up on how Dan gets a bit tense around attractive guys (like the Harries twins and Connor Franta. Remember when he called Connor 'daddy'? ) He taks about men in a pretty sexually explicit way, way more than just 'I find this person aesthetically pleasing.' People make the argument that he could just be joking, but if that's the case it's a pretty long-running joke, as he's been doing this for years.


Sorry this turned into an essay.
Soz, double post, but I agree so hard with all of this.

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