If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

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KatjaZoe
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by KatjaZoe » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:48 pm

malday wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:21 pm
KatjaZoe wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 pm
Very interesting analysis of the phandom survey! I find that i see a lot of "wow there's barely even any anti's anymore" not only here but tumblr, youtube comments, etc. I somehow always doubted that was true. I've said something similar on the main thread before, but i agree that shippers are not so much a majority but more a extremely vocal minority. I've gotten some "omg i can't believe you still think that way" comments whenever i have mentioned i believe they're relationship is platonic -- it's always nice to know i'm not the only one lol.

In regards to early tweets/ dailybooth stuff, i also totally agree with the point you made about them being flirty in the early stages as they were still in the process of defining their friendship/relationship. That's always kind of how I've seen it -- they both identified as bi around that time, Dan looked up to Phil before they actually became friends so maybe there was a bit of a crush element there, and around this time they both seemed to have flirty personalities through what they showed on social media. I find it very possible that they maybe even actually experimented sexually with each other in the beginning to see if there was chemistry (uma thurman just watched me have sex) -- i go back and forth between that and maybe they actually were dating in the beginning, but mostly lean towards flirty/experimental.
However once we get to 2012 and all the outright denials of them being together, i think there's no way they were together after that. It seems like shippers argue against those denials by saying it was "so long ago", but to me it seems like any actual evidence of them being a couple is even older (the tweets/dailybooths of 2009-10). After that mostly all there is to go off of is not very solid imo (the way they look at each other, visiting each others fams, body language, etc. none of it is actual proof).
It also seems to me that there are some more recent denials of phan that i rarely hear about/shippers seem to ignore. One example that always stands out to me is in Dan's diss track he says he's "just another white guy that people ship with his friend cause they think its kawaii" --
seems like Dan blatantly saying they weren't together to me, but it seems like no one acknowledges it?

Anyway i basically read your whole post thinking "yasss *clapping emojis*" in my head :lol: I totally agree!
That's not the main argument against the denials, the main argument, imo, is that they happened after after the vday video leaks which caused an influx of people who thought they were together. "The way they look at eachother" is just a silly little joke to me, i don't think any adult takes it as serious indication of anything.
There are other things that count more; something more rational would be looking at their life choices.
That is the biggest argument i've personally gotten anytime i mention the 2012 denials -- I'm not sure about anyone else's perceptions of what the main argument is from the phandom in general. Even with it being in response to the vday video -- i feel they would have a reaction whether they were together or not, but a denial is a denial and i don't think it fair to take things they said for over a year (it went on into 2013 a bit i believe too) and say "they were probably just lying cause they got caught with the vday video leak." I know that sounds harsher than what fans that ship them intend when discounting the denials, but essentially that what's being implied.
I mentioned the way they look at each other thing because to me it seems like anytime they post a video there's comments about that. I know that isn't anyone's main point of proof. And i did list other examples, including some more serious realistic arguments like them visiting each others families (such as a large talk of "phan proof" when Dan went to IOM this christmas.) To me that simply is not proof. Even them living together as long as they have, talking about getting a dog together. Those are not things exclusively reserved for romantic couples, and to echo what Stakhanov said in his post, most of us can think of someone we know who are platonic friends and have done these things.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by malday » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:58 pm

KatjaZoe wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:48 pm
That is the biggest argument i've personally gotten anytime i mention the 2012 denials -- I'm not sure about anyone else's perceptions of what the main argument is from the phandom in general. Even with it being in response to the vday video -- i feel they would have a reaction whether they were together or not, but a denial is a denial and i don't think it fair to take things they said for over a year (it went on into 2013 a bit i believe too) and say "they were probably just lying cause they got caught with the vday video leak." I know that sounds harsher than what fans that ship them intend when discounting the denials, but essentially that what's being implied.
I mentioned the way they look at each other thing because to me it seems like anytime they post a video there's comments about that. I know that isn't anyone's main point of proof. And i did list other examples, including some more serious realistic arguments like them visiting each others families (such as a large talk of "phan proof" when Dan went to IOM this christmas.) To me that simply is not proof. Even them living together as long as they have, talking about getting a dog together. Those are not things exclusively reserved for romantic couples, and to echo what Stakhanov said in his post, most of us can think of someone we know who are platonic friends and have done these things.
Yeah that interpretation is a bit harsher, i think people are more empathetic and consider the reason to be along the lines of they went into the closet because they were scared and their careers and livelihoods were at stake. At least, that's the perspective i've always seen.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:10 am

KatjaZoe wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:48 pm
malday wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:21 pm
KatjaZoe wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 pm
Very interesting analysis of the phandom survey! I find that i see a lot of "wow there's barely even any anti's anymore" not only here but tumblr, youtube comments, etc. I somehow always doubted that was true. I've said something similar on the main thread before, but i agree that shippers are not so much a majority but more a extremely vocal minority. I've gotten some "omg i can't believe you still think that way" comments whenever i have mentioned i believe they're relationship is platonic -- it's always nice to know i'm not the only one lol.

In regards to early tweets/ dailybooth stuff, i also totally agree with the point you made about them being flirty in the early stages as they were still in the process of defining their friendship/relationship. That's always kind of how I've seen it -- they both identified as bi around that time, Dan looked up to Phil before they actually became friends so maybe there was a bit of a crush element there, and around this time they both seemed to have flirty personalities through what they showed on social media. I find it very possible that they maybe even actually experimented sexually with each other in the beginning to see if there was chemistry (uma thurman just watched me have sex) -- i go back and forth between that and maybe they actually were dating in the beginning, but mostly lean towards flirty/experimental.
However once we get to 2012 and all the outright denials of them being together, i think there's no way they were together after that. It seems like shippers argue against those denials by saying it was "so long ago", but to me it seems like any actual evidence of them being a couple is even older (the tweets/dailybooths of 2009-10). After that mostly all there is to go off of is not very solid imo (the way they look at each other, visiting each others fams, body language, etc. none of it is actual proof).
It also seems to me that there are some more recent denials of phan that i rarely hear about/shippers seem to ignore. One example that always stands out to me is in Dan's diss track he says he's "just another white guy that people ship with his friend cause they think its kawaii" --
seems like Dan blatantly saying they weren't together to me, but it seems like no one acknowledges it?

Anyway i basically read your whole post thinking "yasss *clapping emojis*" in my head :lol: I totally agree!
That's not the main argument against the denials, the main argument, imo, is that they happened after after the vday video leaks which caused an influx of people who thought they were together. "The way they look at eachother" is just a silly little joke to me, i don't think any adult takes it as serious indication of anything.
There are other things that count more; something more rational would be looking at their life choices.
That is the biggest argument i've personally gotten anytime i mention the 2012 denials -- I'm not sure about anyone else's perceptions of what the main argument is from the phandom in general. Even with it being in response to the vday video -- i feel they would have a reaction whether they were together or not, but a denial is a denial and i don't think it fair to take things they said for over a year (it went on into 2013 a bit i believe too) and say "they were probably just lying cause they got caught with the vday video leak." I know that sounds harsher than what fans that ship them intend when discounting the denials, but essentially that what's being implied.
I mentioned the way they look at each other thing because to me it seems like anytime they post a video there's comments about that. I know that isn't anyone's main point of proof. And i did list other examples, including some more serious realistic arguments like them visiting each others families (such as a large talk of "phan proof" when Dan went to IOM this christmas.) To me that simply is not proof. Even them living together as long as they have, talking about getting a dog together. Those are not things exclusively reserved for romantic couples, and to echo what Stakhanov said in his post, most of us can think of someone we know who are platonic friends and have done these things.
The explicit denials throughout 2012 and 2013 are well documented in a youtube playlist on felucca's youtube channel Can't really link it now but i believe you can find links to her channel and other classic sources through this site too.
There were earlier denials too, for example Dan stating as early as 2010 (?) in the youtube comments that they are not actually together but that it is just something that some people enjoy believing. I do think the vigor by which he denied them being a couple on his specifically created tumblr blog remains unmatched. He even talked about how people will not believe his denials anyway because they so wish it to be true that they are together. He made some crude comments about what Phil's genitals look to him, or how his real life friends would laugh at the notion that they'd be a couple. I take from it that he was really annoyed by it all. I can understand too - after all how would you feel if people kept believing you were in a relationship with a friend of yours despite you saying on multiple occasions this is not the case. I'm not saying that I agree with his tone or that he wasn't at times crude about it, but then again it's not like some of the questions people did submit (e.g. "So how does Phil's dick taste?") aren't much more crude. The multiple ways he denied being together with Phil must eiher lead you to believe he told the truth - or that he lied really boldly and brashly about it. In unnecessarily explicit ways that don't make a lot of sense imo if it really were the case that he just wanted to deny it but at the same time actually was in romantic relationship with Phil.
@malday And that's partly why I think the alternative explanation that he was denying it because of the resurfacing V-day video is rather weak. For one, it invalidates the denials on grounds of dismissing another denial. The V-day vid they themselves have said is a prank. If you think they are a couple, i'd imagine you don't believe that explanation either and consider the video to be a love letter in a video diary form. To me, framing the denials of 2012 as just a reaction to the video resurfacing requires making more assumptions and more dismissing of what they themselves put out als the truth: that the video day was a prank. The denials stand on their own though. How can we possibly know for sure in what emotional state or with what intent Dan made his blog responses? To say he was reacting because he was scared and wanted to go back in the closet imo requires a whole lot of far reaching assumptions about their psyche which we can't possible know.
I don't mean this as a personal attack at anyone (just trying to have a frank conversation and an exchange of ideas) but how can that position not be presumptuous? We're claiming to know their intimate reasons for making statements and dismiss what they say as untrue on the grounds of presuming they must have actually wanted to hide that they are a couple or were scared, no matter what the persons involved say about it. They are after all the only ones who can decide what they call their relationship.
So i feel very uncomfortable with the position that they must be lying. It's not that I don't think there's always a possibility one can lie, it's that in complicated and private matters like "are two people in a romantic relationship", the people in question are the sole authority we can ever go by and imo should be give the benefit of any doubt. Short of damning proof that utterly discredits what they're saying.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:43 pm

moaninglisa wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:46 pm
KatjaZoe wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 pm

It also seems to me that there are some more recent denials of phan that i rarely hear about/shippers seem to ignore. One example that always stands out to me is in Dan's diss track he says he's "just another white guy that people ship with his friend cause they think its kawaii" --
seems like Dan blatantly saying they weren't together to me, but it seems like no one acknowledges it?
aren't diss tracks told from the perspective of an outsider?
'the only reason you get views is you're another white guy that people ship with his friend because they think is kawaii' is something people who aren't very fond of dan may think. after all, phan is one of the biggest ships on tumblr. and i think that's the main reason why is not talked about as often but i could be wrong :mrgreen:
No I think it's obvious Dan's diss track is written from his own perspective. It is he himself dissing himself - and of course if you want to make a video with a broad appeal that entails you mostly joke about things that the public is somewhat aware of. So no 'god of serotonin imbalance' because that would go over people's heads and but only the 'on brand' existential crisis stuff. In the new meme video, after more of the truth of the matter was shared, he does go and joke about it in typical self-deprecating manner.
It's always tricky to guess what (if any) truth The Joker reveals when he puts on a play. Is Dan genuinely a "secret furry"? Does he really overeat? Does he try hard to be diplomatique? It's all really ambiguous and i think there's little pieces of information in that track that are hinting at or reflecting true facts and thoughts while other things might simply be colorful dramatizations or are there to all make it a finished piece or to make the damn thing rhyme :lol:
I agree with @KatjaZoe though in that i think in general they haven't really stopped denying they're together, they just usually sugarcoat it in an ambiguous, humorous way. A "free for all, take it as you like" approach.
The words by themself are pretty sharp and self-aware. Just another white guy that people ship with his friends because they think it's cute? I mean, that sounds like a pretty accurate description of "stan" twitter to me. I'd have to wonder why i'd ever say that if I was truly in a relationship with that person. It doesn't seem to serve as much of a joke if it were the case that i'm in love and together with a person. It seems at odds to me to the rest of the video, but who's to tell what is a joke and what's not? When Dan says "Could you believe i wore Phi'l coat today" in a liveshow to me that's an obvious mocking of shippers who would adore the idea of one of them wearing the other one's coat, but like most things they say and do you can always interpret it many ways. I don't see Phil's hands on Dan's side as some recent stills of the baking video (the one where they are under one sweater) suggest, but other say it's obvious. I think the whole idea of being under one sweater is obvious 'fan service" and shows they are perfectly aware of what people like to see in their videos, and i see that as an element that they are just running with the whole shipping appeal. To me, it would be incredibly odd that they made so many fan servicey content if in reality they were a closeted couple just wishing to have their privacy respected, but others explain away these comments differently and see it as a slow opening-up proces :sideeye:
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by pearshaped34 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:58 pm

KatjaZoe wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:39 pm
It also seems to me that there are some more recent denials of phan that i rarely hear about/shippers seem to ignore. One example that always stands out to me is in Dan's diss track he says he's "just another white guy that people ship with his friend cause they think its kawaii" --
seems like Dan blatantly saying they weren't together to me, but it seems like no one acknowledges it?
I like to say I'm on the fence about phan however I will admit these days I tend to lean to thinking they are more likely to be together than not. And my reasoning for that isn't how they look at each other but simply that I don't believe either is asexual and I think at this point them being together is more plausible to me than them having significant others (even casual significant others) without the phandom ever catching wind of a single potential love interest in all these years.

That being said while they have verbally stopped denying Phan in the direct sense I still think they deny it on the regular.
The bed situation is probably the biggest denial to me. They made a huge point of Dan sleeping in the bunk in the TATINOF documentary. And in every DITL they show they sleep in separate beds (in the Aus DITL they not only had separate beds but separate hotel rooms). And they have separate bedrooms in their flat and even drop comments into videos and liveshows that make it clear they sleep alone/the other sleeps in a different room. There have been other little comments here and there that I remember thinking sounded like a denial but I haven't been keeping a record so don't have any examples at hand but you get the point.
They might not be saying the words in the direct sense but they are definitely still painting a picture where they are just BFF.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:49 pm

They are indeed in a really good situation to hide the exact nature of their relationship, if they wanted to. That's why I won't say I'm completely sure about them being friends and not lovers, but I think it mostly boils down to being willing to trust their own statements on this issue that's always going to be personal and private. I think that's in this case more reasonable and fair than deciding on my own constructed beliefs (which one makes anyway and can be "pro" or "anti" phan) which will necessarily be based on limited, poor quality information and full of speculation and emotions. I just don't know them personally.

They don't strike me as asexual either (though we're really just assuming that) but even if we'd start from the idea that they just like most people would desire a long term partner and also presume they are looking for one (despite the oldish statements we have of Dan that he wasn't), I feel that the argument that the phandom hasn't spotted them with significant others cuts both ways. Because in all those years we have also never spotted their own supposed relationship. When is see people using their lack of love interests as an argument for phan (because "the phandom sees all") while at the same time dismissing it would be hard to cover up their own relationship I think that's an odd double standard.
No situation is of course perfectly equivalent, but i'd like the point out the many assumptions that are made in this scenario:

-Dan and Phil want a relationship (their own statements about this are mixed)

-Dan and phil would be successful at actively looking for one/finding one (there are plenty of people who have trouble finding a partner, for many reasons. Something doesn't have to be 'wrong' with a person to end up being single)

-We would likely catch wind over all these years (would we? maybe we're only talking a few instances. We barely know where they are or what social circles they move in now. They have plenty of means, and wit, to meet someone discretely if they wanted to i'd think)

-Because they haven't found someone else, therefore this is suggests they are into a relationship themselves ( as if being single / them being a couple is the binary option here)

-They wish to hide their own relationship here and are successful at it, keeping their privacy
-or if you think they aren't successful: they are willing to lie about it and not shunning to use advanced trickery like booking double rooms, filming each other in seperate beds, using elaborate schemes and involving others to hide that they spend time somewhere together, .... and are apparently bad at it too since they then supposedly "reveal" themselves by doing things as appearing in Cornelia's pictures or "obviously" being dishonest about things - but the phandom knows the truth even if they deny it!

I phrase this a bit provocatively and i know that not everyone will accept all these assumptions, nor is it by any means the only grounds why people can think they are together, but I do sometimes wonder if people who think they are together have considered what it must feel like to Dan and Phil if they aren't actually a couple. I don't know how i would deal with a situation where i have at multiple times denied being together with my friend yet people reject my words and every time i kind of try to make clear it's just friendship, for example by pointing out we're sleeping in different beds or devoting part of my book to friendship etc ... a bunch of people treat it like i'm lying and tricking them and i get a whole lot of investigation into my private life, with people trying to uncover my relationship in every move, and talking about how "domestic" and "married" I look. Like i'm some kind of cute animal in their gay fanfic fantasy land.
Again, I'm not saying that is how you or all people look at them. This is just a feeling i get when you're looking up the "phan tag" on social media. You do sometimes get the sense that some shippers have developed a well-intentioned but really objectifying and presumptuous narratives about their lives.
To be fair though, even though I'd be immensely annoyed if people thought i was together with someone even though I clearly denied it, I also have never been a millionaire youtuber.
I haven't built an audience of millions (at least in part) because of my friendly and flirty behavior with my friend, going as far as putting a shipping scene in a tour that's all about myself and this friend. They are regularly engaging in "fanservice" in varying degrees and you can see it in most of their vids.
While I think they wish people would just accept that they are just friends, In the end, they've made a choice. They value having as big as possible an audience more than risking to alienate part of it by denying all the time that they would be a couple. They capitalize and profit on that choice too, so I can only hope they find that the benefits outweigh the costs. In the grand scheme of things I'd say they are exceptionally lucky compared to most.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by pearshaped34 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:18 am

Stakhanov wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:49 pm
They don't strike me as asexual either (though we're really just assuming that) but even if we'd start from the idea that they just like most people would desire a long term partner and also presume they are looking for one (despite the oldish statements we have of Dan that he wasn't), I feel that the argument that the phandom hasn't spotted them with significant others cuts both ways. Because in all those years we have also never spotted their own supposed relationship. When is see people using their lack of love interests as an argument for phan (because "the phandom sees all") while at the same time dismissing it would be hard to cover up their own relationship I think that's an odd double standard.
To clarify my own post on this matter when I stated I'd have expected if they had romantic partner(s) over the last seven years that the phandom would have gotten wind of it I didn't mean that I'd have expected the phandom to have found solid proof of a relationship.
I meant more along the lines I'd have expected the phandom to see them doing all the things they are always spotted doing with each other with unknown person(s) who could be a potential romantic partner.
Dan and Phil are spotted out and about together all the time, at movies, at the theatre, celebrating birthdays, etc etc. The people who spot them then give detailed accounts of the encounter and to my knowledge there have never (or at least rarely) been times when their was a third party with them who couldn't be explained (i.e Wirrow, Bryony, management, etc).
If they did have someone they wanted to hide a relationship with I'm sure they could resist sucking face with that person in public but to literally never see any of the latest movies or plays with them and to not invite them to their own birthday celebrations? That to me doesn't seem very plausible. I think they'd have be a few pictures of one or both of them out for a meal or at the movies with someone who the phandom couldn't explain.

Of course to be clear I'm not arguing that this means they absolutely have to be together. They could have dated casually/unsuccessfully in this time. They could be dating Wirrow/Bryony/management. Maybe they are incredibly lucky and never get spotted when they are out with their partner or on any of their dates. Or maybe they are just so hell-bent on protecting their privacy they won't so much as see a movie with their secret partner. Or maybe they really have just been single and alone for all this time.

However like I said while I accept all of the above are possibilities I personally think the most plausible explanation seven years down the line is probably that they are together.
Stakhanov wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:49 pm
I phrase this a bit provocatively and i know that not everyone will accept all these assumptions, nor is it by any means the only grounds why people can think they are together, but I do sometimes wonder if people who think they are together have considered what it must feel like to Dan and Phil if they aren't actually a couple.
Yes I've given this thought a few times and completely agree if they aren't actually a couple it must be so incredibly frustrating to be them. And also think it's impressive they have been strong enough to not let it affect their friendship. I honestly think under the level of scrutiny they are a lot of people would have moved separate etc just to kill the rumours.
(Of course though it could also be argued they would never do this not because shipping doesn't get to them but because they know it's good for their bank balances but I'm not going to go into that one here).

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by scientia » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:06 am

(only adding this here as it has some phan-questioning content, idek what I think anymore)

Once again I see people posting everywhere outside of IDB that Dan has to know that people will automatically assume he's sexually active with Phil, so him saying/joking about these things is basically confirmation of phan. I have my own issues with the idea that either one of them can't simply announce something to the world without the other half being lumped into it, but anyway. Is it weird that Dan's jokes in this video (which were more graphically descriptive than before) has made me question whether or not the guys are together? Anybody else feeling this? I can't really explain it...


As an aside: for all of the Dan & Phil surveys over the years, I've pretty much always selected 'asexual' as a sexuality for one or both of the guys - my feelings about their sexual identity used to change all of the time but I believed for quite a while that it was just as viable a 'label' as anything else and as an asexual myself I was most definitely self-identifying there. So yeah Dan's video has me shook simply because he mentioned sex lol.

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by lefthandedism » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:13 pm

scientia wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:06 am
(only adding this here as it has some phan-questioning content, idek what I think anymore)

Once again I see people posting everywhere outside of IDB that Dan has to know that people will automatically assume he's sexually active with Phil, so him saying/joking about these things is basically confirmation of phan. I have my own issues with the idea that either one of them can't simply announce something to the world without the other half being lumped into it, but anyway. Is it weird that Dan's jokes in this video (which were more graphically descriptive than before) has made me question whether or not the guys are together? Anybody else feeling this? I can't really explain it...


As an aside: for all of the Dan & Phil surveys over the years, I've pretty much always selected 'asexual' as a sexuality for one or both of the guys - my feelings about their sexual identity used to change all of the time but I believed for quite a while that it was just as viable a 'label' as anything else and as an asexual myself I was most definitely self-identifying there. So yeah Dan's video has me shook simply because he mentioned sex lol.
I know what you're saying. As someone mentioned on the main thread, it's like suddenly hearing one of you parents joke about having sex. When you "know" somebody for years and they've never mentioned having sex before it's quite shocking. And maybe in our embarassed collective response we don't want to feel embarrassed about Phil (especially since we, collectively, somehow see him more as an angel bean) or we're somehow transferring our embarassment to Phil (he must find these graphic innuendos about his cock embarassing!). So to distance ourselves from this secondhand embarassment for Phil that we're feeling, we think Dan must be talking about someone else.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth of course (um, why did I come up with that way of putting it!)--I just woke up and am mostly free-associating. But yeah, that's what you got me thinking. :tu:
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:09 pm

lefthandedism wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:13 pm
scientia wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:06 am
(only adding this here as it has some phan-questioning content, idek what I think anymore)

Once again I see people posting everywhere outside of IDB that Dan has to know that people will automatically assume he's sexually active with Phil, so him saying/joking about these things is basically confirmation of phan. I have my own issues with the idea that either one of them can't simply announce something to the world without the other half being lumped into it, but anyway. Is it weird that Dan's jokes in this video (which were more graphically descriptive than before) has made me question whether or not the guys are together? Anybody else feeling this? I can't really explain it...


As an aside: for all of the Dan & Phil surveys over the years, I've pretty much always selected 'asexual' as a sexuality for one or both of the guys - my feelings about their sexual identity used to change all of the time but I believed for quite a while that it was just as viable a 'label' as anything else and as an asexual myself I was most definitely self-identifying there. So yeah Dan's video has me shook simply because he mentioned sex lol.
I know what you're saying. As someone mentioned on the main thread, it's like suddenly hearing one of you parents joke about having sex. When you "know" somebody for years and they've never mentioned having sex before it's quite shocking. And maybe in our embarassed collective response we don't want to feel embarrassed about Phil (especially since we, collectively, somehow see him more as an angel bean) or we're somehow transferring our embarassment to Phil (he must find these graphic innuendos about his cock embarassing!). So to distance ourselves from this secondhand embarassment for Phil that we're feeling, we think Dan must be talking about someone else.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth of course (um, why did I come up with that way of putting it!)--I just woke up and am mostly free-associating. But yeah, that's what you got me thinking. :tu:
I just put the things that don't make sense to me in bold since I'm to lazy to actually edit point by point on my break
:coffee: -soz.

I didn't really feel like Dan's video about living an authentic life and paying respect to your own truth was that sexual? Personally, I think the oral sex joke got blown out of proportion and turned into something that he didn't intended to say.
A (gay) sex joke by Dan doesn't feel like much of a departure to me. Aren't innuendo's Dan and Phil's bread and butter :lol: ? His video didn't change my ideas about his sexuality or phan at all :shrug: I can think of many other instances where they said stuff where i've felt more second-hand embarrassed. As somebody who doesn't think they have sex with each other anyway, my first thought was about Dan going down on Phil either? I took it as a typical Dan "edutainment" joke. When he says laughter, food and sex is the thing making him happy at the moment i sort of take that as a dramatized statement to begin with. He's not going to really go into the ultra personal, detailed motivations of what's keeping him afloat or pushing him down.
As I understand it the video wasn't about Phil at all.
If anything I see the video as more of a confirmation that they aren't together. It would make sense to me, if they were a couple, and Dan was talking about being true to oneself and believing in your own meaning... that he would hint at their relationship which i don't think he did -no I don't think the magnets were some sign of them coming out.
Though really i just think this video doesn't inform us much about phan at all. In that sphere, i'm more interested in what happens on the world tour and especially what happens a couple of months after they hauled a ton of cash ;p.
They committed too spend most of their time together again this year. They have plenty of reasonable motivations to do so, but i'm keeping a sharp eye on exactly how many tours and holidays and weddings and family visits they continue to do together. They have such a strong emotional bond that sometimes i wonder what the point is in trying to differentiate between them being a romantic couple or platonic friends. They certainly, trough choice and circumstance, have organized their lives in such a way that they are spending a lot of time with one another ;)
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by DaddywiseTheClown » Tue May 08, 2018 12:20 am

I see there's 11 pages and I feel like what I'm gonna say has been said before as I see a lot of long posts (that probably go over the same thing.. it's 1am, i have work at 9... not really wanting to skimread it all tonight)

I guess it's because I've been watching Dan and Phil for a long time and from the start I was either some oblivious ass or i just sorta didn't read any of it as possibly romantic/sexual between the two of them... Put it this way, it's kinda like when you only see someone as a friend, that you've known and been friends with for so long that you can't really see them in any other way. That's how I see Dan and Phil (as friends, as it's always seemed that way for a long time)- I know that some people develop feelings after being friends, and that's fine. I guess I'm so used to them being in that sort of friend context that I can't think of it in any other way? Sure, it may be a possible thing now or in the future, but I don't actively ship it.

A lot of people I've known personally who ship Phan are also mental as hell. I'm certain the shippers on this forum aren't as bad as the people I know personally- not all shippers are insane, i get it, you don't have to be mad to ship things. But I know a lot of people I know/know of associate shippers with being kinda insane, and I don't particularly want to be associated with that, even if I did ship them... Kinda like the Creepypasta fandom on some sites... A bin fire of epic proportions that I don't want to touch with a 10ft pole nor be associated with
EDIT: There's a fair bit more that I could go into as I've seen a few recent posts on the last page but I'll probably add to this post after I've had some sleep
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Fri May 18, 2018 11:17 am

DaddywiseTheClown wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:20 am
I see there's 11 pages and I feel like what I'm gonna say has been said before as I see a lot of long posts (that probably go over the same thing.. it's 1am, i have work at 9... not really wanting to skimread it all tonight)
[/i]
That sounds a lot more productive than me writing letter sized posts to shorten a boring day at the office tbh ;)

Hi, welcome to the forum. It's always nice to hear a new voice and fresh ideas. A fan forum can fall victim to group think so I'm happy we've got another skeptic, we're in the minority in this little corner of the internet ;)
I'm loving your profile picture btw I always think Mc Donalds must be about one more popular movie / serial killer away of retiring Ronald McDonald but then he just keeps persisting :mrgreen: Or perhaps Mc Donalds has a far more sinister agenda than we all realize :illuminati: ?

I agree with your reading of their relationship. It's not that rare a reading as you may think, as far as I know a majority of people don't think they're a couple. But you don't tend to talk as often about things you don't think are real, especially when you see others taking joy in that idea. And the most "dedicated" fans that buy show tickets and merch and make fan accounts probably get exposed to the fandom a lot more, and as consequence might get influenced more by the narrative that they're together. If you watch their every move and try to find phan in every little detail, you will probably find it ;)

Essentially i don't think the Dan and Phil ship is that different from other ships like Larry or K-pop ships. The only people who could know themselves have clearly denied being a couple. They have always defined themselves as friends and not a romantic couple. They are doing it even in their tour right now, calling themselves soulmates; Phil roasting the ship in his little rap. But like with all things human there's ambiguity and if people don't want to believe you when you say you're no couple or that v-day is a prank, what are you gonna do? I think they've long ago decided to just let the ship leave port. It's not like it's not a profitable fantasy for them ;-) I suspect they long ago made the choice to not press the matter to much since it's a breaking point for so many fans. I agree that some people look at them more as dolls and view their supposed relationship as some fetish. People prefer them to be this perfect kawaii gay couple, projecting all kinds of needs and desires on them. It can get quite creepy :mrgreen:
On the other hand the great majority of what fans create and say, I think, starts from a good place. People like to just identify with them and have some fun. The lord knoweth I do enjoy the ship, even think if I think it's it's not true. And there is always the argument that they are lying about not being together. If they really wanted to deceive us, I think they could. They do have a lot of cover provided by their friendship, past, and special life circumstances.
But the sobering fact is that if you go by what Dan and Phil say and put you standard of evidence higher than "well that looks very coupley, so it must an indication of them being a couple" the ship has just as much facts going for it than other comparable gay ships in internet culture.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Lilla » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:22 pm

Hello everyone. This is the first time I've really interacted with IDB and I am not sure how this properly works but I thought this would be the best thread for me. I'm sorry if anything I say has already been said (or if this is a too old chain to reply in)

I personally am always stuck between what people consider shipping them and not which makes it incredibly difficult to properly express my opinion. The easiest way to explain is, I ship them if the relationship is real, and don't ship them if it isn't, whether we know it or not. I am just on the side of since I would support them no matter what and don't mind what the relationship between them is, I don't theorise/analyse what I think they are. If someone asks me how I would define them, I would say friends because that is all they definitely are.

I don't deny that there's a possibility they're together, however I don't really "ship" real people who's relationship is not confirmed.

At the end of the day for me, it's all about respect. There's a big difference between jokingly commenting about how the 2 of them are adorable, and treating everything they do as evidence. I would never, of course, send hate to anyone who does that, but I personally feel slightly uncomfortable with the depth that people analyse their actions. I feel strange seeing terms like canon in reference to real people, simply because it makes me feel like certain people don't realise that they are real, or seeing people harassing them or their friends who supposedly have a chance of being their partners, or who deny phan. I think whether you believe they're dating or not, the hate some people have gotten for denying their relationship or being close to them is really saddening to me. I don't think that a ship is worth being disrespectful to anyone over. I don't feel that treating real people's lives as TV or movie plots is how to deal with people simply because they happen to be in the public eye.

I also kind of feel that certain things that are technically respectful (as in don't directly get sent to them or anything like that) may be a little too far. Let me be clear, I don't hate on anyone and I never would, but I feel that the outright denial of them having the possibility of simply being friends is a little bit strange. It makes me feel like people are saying friendships can't be close, or simply acting like they know someone better than others. I think that having a 99% assurance if them being together, is better than having 100%, especially as so many people act like it's wrong if they are simply friends, which if course it in no way is.

The same thing goes for sexualities for me. Whether they are LGBTQ+ or not (obviously I have no problem with either) is something that they've decided to keep private. So even if they're dropping hints (for lack of a better term) it's something that they haven't decided to make public knowledge so I don't feel comfortable speculating about it, and I don't feel comfortable acting like I know for sure. It doesn't feel like my business so, even if it is the case, as they haven't chosen to share it, it doesn't really feel like public discussion material. (Let me be clear, this is not me asking them to acknowledge it, I'm just making the point that they haven't)

Having said that, I also disagree with people who act like it would be wrong for them to be together, who say they queerbait, or who are actually anti their relationship. I feel that whether they are together or not, if you will give up supporting them if it turns out they're together, it's wrong. Same the other way around. They're amazing people who are amazing in their own right and I don't personally feel the need to know if they're together or not to support that.

I will keep saying they're friends because it is what they literally present themselves as. Whether that's true or not, I can't know, and no one else can. But I will never say anything against the idea of them as a couple, but I do not ship them.

I'm sorry if this is too longwinded, too serious, or completely irrelevant to the discussion. I just have no idea how to use this site yet. :)

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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by lefthandedism » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:50 pm

Lilla wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:22 pm

I also kind of feel that certain things that are technically respectful (as in don't directly get sent to them or anything like that) may be a little too far. Let me be clear, I don't hate on anyone and I never would, but I feel that the outright denial of them having the possibility of simply being friends is a little bit strange. It makes me feel like people are saying friendships can't be close, or simply acting like they know someone better than others. I think that having a 99% assurance if them being together, is better than having 100%, especially as so many people act like it's wrong if they are simply friends, which if course it in no way is.
I quite agree with you on this. Even though I firmly believe they are together, it is presumptuous. Every relationship is a mystery, and we don't really know what goes on between any two people.

And :welcome: , btw! It's nice to see such a thoughtful post in this dusty old thread. :tu:
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by astraltraveller » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:13 am

because i don't know them in person, they are just two guys that i saw on the other side of my shitty lcd screen, if they said they are best friends they are best friends to me. honestly the first time i saw them on my ig explore i thought that they are a couple, then again as much as i want to believe they are together i'll never know unless they tell their audience themselves. so i just give up on the idea of shipping phan. their relationship honestly doesn't really matter to me, because i watch their channel for their bants and some background noise when i'm cleaning my own room lmao. although i'll be really happy if they are/ will be together, looks like they got a great chemistry with each other.
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by Stakhanov » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:02 am

@astraltraveller Hi :bear:
I would be happy for them if they were a couple, even if I think it fundamentally doesn't matter because I agree they have a kind of chemistry and friendship that's very attractive to watch, and that's what I enjoy in the video's.

But I also care about the truth and consider it only fair to give some credence to their denials. I assess the truth about the nature of their relationship just the same way as I do it with other people and when they claim (not to be) in a relationship. If Bob and Mark say they are a couple, I presume them to be a couple. If one of them says they aren't, I presume they're not since it's up to them to define their relationship and you're only a couple if you both agree to be one ;) It doesn't ever mean I'm totally sure about the facts of the matter. Bob and Mark could lying. I can't even know for sure Bob is called Bob (maybe he's really Fernando...), but it's gonna take some strong evidence to convince me (like finding Bob's passport and realizing his claimed identity is inconsistent with reliable, official sources) if you claim that Bob and Mark are lying. What makes you more knowledgeable about their relationship than Bob and Mark themselves? Can you demonstrate that you are more credible and that we shouldn't believe Bob and Mark? Is your argument based on circumstantial, subjective reasoning about Bob and Mark's behavior or is it of a more factual nature that's much harder to dispute?
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Re: If you DON'T ship Phan…why not?

Post by astraltraveller » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:10 am

Stakhanov wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:02 am
I assess the truth about the nature of their relationship just the same way as I do it with other people and when they claim (not to be) in a relationship. If Bob and Mark say they are a couple, I presume them to be a couple. If one of them says they aren't, I presume they're not since it's up to them to define their relationship and you're only a couple if you both agree to be one ;) It doesn't ever mean I'm totally sure about the facts of the matter. Bob and Mark could lying. I can't even know for sure Bob is called Bob (maybe he's really Fernando...), but it's gonna take some strong evidence to convince me (like finding Bob's passport and realizing his claimed identity is inconsistent with reliable, official sources) if you claim that Bob and Mark are lying. What makes you more knowledgeable about their relationship than Bob and Mark themselves? Can you demonstrate that you are more credible and that we shouldn't believe Bob and Mark? Is your argument based on circumstantial, subjective reasoning about Bob and Mark's behavior or is it of a more factual nature that's much harder to dispute?
I agree with everything you said especially the part that I bold. That's why it's hard for me to ship phan, only dnp knows the nature of their relationships. Since they said many times that they were best friends, I decided to take their words as facts.
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