Dan & Phil Part 99: OnlyPhans

[shan]

Re the slit comment, the context has already been explained by alittledizzy and obvsly but I would like to add that I don't think it would be a misogynistic comment if the joke was taken at face value either. Two gay men saying they don't like vagina is just a fact, it's not saying they don't like women. Just like I don't think it would be sexist for a lesbian to say they don't like penis.

this is one of those conversations that is obviously reflected by each person's individual lived experience because i actually find it very offensive and is dehumanizing to be reduced to ones genitals. i know the above is a popular opinion though and have seen many conversations and nuances of it. it also feels a bit transphobic to me since there are men with vaginas and women with penises out in the world. but im also not going to tell people they have to love a certain set of genitals to be valid it just has always seemed weird to focus on.

do i personally think dnp were intentionally being gross - of course not. but it is one of those things that doesn't hurt to be careful of even in ~comedy.

Gah, it ate my first attempt at this post so this is take two.

I understand where you're coming from but, without trying to get too controversial, the sexuality they have both publicly stated is gay, not pansexual, so a comment about not liking vagina is just kind of stating the obvious? I don't think the statement in the context it was put is transphobic but I can see how it could be if said in a certain way.

People are obviously more than their genitals but, in general, I think the media we consume desensitises us to mention of these things as it's so mainstream and common that it's barely noticeable unless you are already sensitive to the topic. Thinking back, RPDR UK last night was basically all about dick and it barely registered with me until now. I'll be the first to admit that, despite being a supporter of trans rights, my knowledge of trans issues is not top notch. It's something a lot of us are learning as we go along and maybe this will be the next thing we cringe about looking back in 5 years.

"the sexuality they have both publicly stated is gay, not pansexual, so a comment about not liking vagina is just kind of stating the obvious?"
don't really know what pansexuality has to do with anything because i hope you're not saying that only pan people are attracted to trans people?

dan and phil are gay and that's great and if their attraction to men hinges on penises then whatever i guess.

as trans people we're allowed to be like hey this is kinda hurtful and i would hope that cis people (including dan and phil who, like levitating reminded, have supported trans people in the past) would pause and listen instead of just being like well this is how it's always been get over it.

and im going to reiterate, no i dont think dan and phil are ever intentionally gross about this sort of thing though i hope for a future where trans people are taken seriously.

anyway, im not the best with words or a great debater so i'm done. i dont feel particularly comfortable or safe here right now so i'm gonna go take care of myself.

I'm truely sorry if anything I said made you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, that's devastated me to hear and please know it was never my intention nor was anything said with the inflection that issues should be got over rather listened to. I said in my post that I'm not particularly knowledgable on this topic and I'm just learning as I go. I only have one trans acquaintance and he is a gay man who does talk in a way not unlike what Dan was yesterday so my sample size of one hasn't exposed me to issues clearly prevalent amongst the wider community.

I've always hated labels to the point that at almost 29 I don't have a label for myself, don't care to find one and haven't looked in depth to the ones that exist. Genuinely my understanding of pansexuality was attraction regardless of gender identity which is what I thought differentiated from gay, lesbian or bi but clearly I'm wrong and I'm more than happy to be told differently.

I hope you take the time you need to care for yourself and I deeply apologise again for anything I said that made you feel unsafe. I've been beside myself writing this post knowing I've made you feel that way.

[Thestubborn]

I'm more interested in discussing the fact that Dan is Not an introvert as he would like to make us think. He truly said he feels the need to be social every two weeks?? I'm generalizing sure but that doesn't sound introvert to me. I can go a couple of months without feeling like i need to see anyone and i live completely on my own. Stop lying to yourself Dan!

I can't remember when it was said but before the II era they both mentioned being in the middle of the introvert/extravert spectrum. The insistence that they're full introverts only seems to have kicked in after they named the tour but they definitely don't fit it from my experience either. I'm happy just chilling out with my cat until the next required social event.

Re the slit comment, the context has already been explained by alittledizzy and obvsly but I would like to add that I don't think it would be a misogynistic comment if the joke was taken at face value either. Two gay men saying they don't like vagina is just a fact, it's not saying they don't like women. Just like I don't think it would be sexist for a lesbian to say they don't like penis.

you didn’t get my point, saying I’m not attracted to vagina/penis because I’m gay/lesbian is fine but using words that are considered derogatory against women is not fine . I don’t think they are sexist because they are not attracted to vagina but they shouldn’t use sexist words to refer to women, that was the issue for me. anyway thanks to the people who explained that it’s taken out of context they were not talking about women

[casualsun]

I'm more interested in discussing the fact that Dan is Not an introvert as he would like to make us think. He truly said he feels the need to be social every two weeks?? I'm generalizing sure but that doesn't sound introvert to me. I can go a couple of months without feeling like i need to see anyone and i live completely on my own. Stop lying to yourself Dan!

I can't remember when it was said but before the II era they both mentioned being in the middle of the introvert/extravert spectrum. The insistence that they're full introverts only seems to have kicked in after they named the tour but they definitely don't fit it from my experience either. I'm happy just chilling out with my cat until the next required social event.

Re the slit comment, the context has already been explained by alittledizzy and obvsly but I would like to add that I don't think it would be a misogynistic comment if the joke was taken at face value either. Two gay men saying they don't like vagina is just a fact, it's not saying they don't like women. Just like I don't think it would be sexist for a lesbian to say they don't like penis.

you didn’t get my point, saying I’m not attracted to vagina/penis because I’m gay/lesbian is fine but using words that are considered derogatory against women is not fine . I don’t think they are sexist because they are not attracted to vagina but they shouldn’t use sexist words to refer to women, that was the issue for me. anyway thanks to the people who explained that it’s taken out of context they were not talking about women

I see your point and I agree that they shouldnt use derogatory words to refer to women. However, I don’t think they were necessarily using slit as a word for women. For example, I hear lots of girls who are lesbians say the “don’t like dick” or they’re “not into penis,” etc. and i don’t consider that derogatory and i don’t even see it as them using dick/penis to refer to a man. And, as we know, there can be women with a penis and men with a “”slit”” so it seems to actually be more hurtful to trans folk to equate genitals with gender (which we as viewers are doing; dan did not do that).

I think Dan just saw the opportunity for a joke when talking about the blinds bc of the Arca song and went for it.

[dontpanic]

They were talking about blinds, they prefer their blinds half slitted not full slit but have neighbors that keep their blinds fully open. Dan started laughing at the way Phil said it, clearly hearing a sexual innuendo, but the full quote is, "I don't like these neighbors because we respectfully keep our blinds closed all the time, on half-slit. You know Dan and Phil, we're not into slits. We like it to be fully closed."

When Phil said "slit" I have to admit my mind went straight to Rip the Slit, a song on Arca's latest album (cw: lyrics may be triggering to some) and I just knew Dan's would too so I was expecting the joke and quite honestly would have been a bit disappointed if he didn't make it. Of course that's just me & I don't associate genitals with gender so it doesn't seem derogatory/misogynistic/transphoibc but ymmv.

I think we had a momentary DnP level mind-meld because I had the legit same sequence of thoughts while listening

[TuxedoSam]

you didn’t get my point, saying I’m not attracted to vagina/penis because I’m gay/lesbian is fine but using words that are considered derogatory against women is not fine . I don’t think they are sexist because they are not attracted to vagina but they shouldn’t use sexist words to refer to women, that was the issue for me. anyway thanks to the people who explained that it’s taken out of context they were not talking about women

I see your point and I agree that they shouldnt use derogatory words to refer to women. However, I don’t think they were necessarily using slit as a word for women. For example, I hear lots of girls who are lesbians say the “don’t like dick” or they’re “not into penis,” etc. and i don’t consider that derogatory and i don’t even see it as them using dick/penis to refer to a man. And, as we know, there can be women with a penis and men with a “”slit”” so it seems to actually be more hurtful to trans folk to equate genitals with gender (which we as viewers are doing; dan did not do that).

I think Dan just saw the opportunity for a joke when talking about the blinds bc of the Arca song and went for it.

Not relating this to what dan said, he didn't mean it but to me it's not saying you don't like penis / vagina. it's not the word penis. Slit is a derogatory word for vagina. Penis is not. dick is not and in fact any slang for a penis never was derogatory. I can't find any (maybe someone know some ? i don't know.) Yet when people talk about vagina some can use words like that and it really make the female genital sound like a disgusting thing. I think people just shouldn't use "slit" for vagina. Maybe some girls like the word "slit" for their genitals but i never saw any ?

[autumnhearth]

I understand where you're coming from but, without trying to get too controversial, the sexuality they have both publicly stated is gay, not pansexual, so a comment about not liking vagina is just kind of stating the obvious? I don't think the statement in the context it was put is transphobic but I can see how it could be if said in a certain way.

To be really picky, in BIG, Dan labels himself as queer as well as gay.

To be really, really picky, Dan labels himself as queer and right after it says that he is scared of labeling himself as gay because of his internalized homophobia. And then he says he has to just face the facts and say "I'm gay" despite being scared of it. To me it sounds like he likes using the term queer because it's doesn't scare him as much. Since then, he has only said gay, I think.

To be really, really, really picky Dan settled on the term queer as a comfortable and inclusive word after being frustrated and confused and horny by labels and not knowing if he’s bi or pan or poly or whatever. *But* that doesn’t mean anyone should speculate what his sexual orientation “technically is” and we should all respect the language he uses which has been gay for the past year and three quarters-ish.

Also wanted to add that Dan said he doesn’t care what flesh organ (his words not mine) people have between their legs.

[inanerat]

Ok here's me trying to lay out my thoughts on the slit conversation because I haven't been able to get out of my head.

(Rip the Slit was also my first thought when hearing it which I mentioned earlier, which if you want to go deeper into that is a whole other nuanced conversation about bodies, genitalia and transness)

RE: Taking apart the remark:
The direct quote is "dan and phil: we're not into slits" and I do take this as a (not great) joke about being gay. There's a lot of stuff going on in this remark (in the context of attempted humor, which I perceive it to be, as dnp are entertainers, usually trying to entertain) and I want to try to break it down a little bit.
CW: discussion of common cultural logic around gender that may feel really invalidating and shitty for fellow trans folks to read. If you're not feeling up to it, you totally don't have to read, take care of urselves

Overall, the body parts/genitalia element does feel shitty, it feels shitty, but is also common in our gender (and other types of) humor. There is a added layer of vaginas/genitalia associated with women and 'slit' being a more negative term that something like 'dick' that does add an extra layer of discomfort when in context of coming from a man in a patriarchal society.

Now, breaking down some of the internal logics around gender, sex and sexuality that the statement relies on in order to be perceived as the attempted humor that I assume it was. My opinions on the flaws of these statements in parentheses, but your opinions may vary, which will likely vary your feelings on the original statement:
-Being a gay man means being exclusively attracted to men. (Sometimes true, but not always, something Dan himself mentioned in passing on Tuesday)
-A key part of sexual attraction involves sexual attraction to genitalia. (While this isn't key to my personal experience, I do think it is commonly accepted logic that sexual attraction has to do with attraction to sexual organs)
-Women have vaginas (Many do, the trouble here comes with the fact that not ALL women have vaginas, and having one is not inherent or indicative of being a woman)
-Men are not women (basically a complete social truth, although no rigid gender statements really sit well with me)
-Genitalia exists in a strict and mutually exclusive binary of penis and vagina (This is again a commonly accepted truth, however not entirely true, as variation in genitalia and other sex-related organs does exist)
-Thus, attraction to men=not attracted to vaginas

There's a few different ways to cut this but I think this gets the main points across. Basically, while exclusive attraction to penises/vaginas is valid imo (while I difficult for me to understand because it is so different from my experience and it can sure feel shitty as hell as a trans person, I'm not here to tell people what their experience of attraction is or should be), taking the remark itself as a joke, makes it quick gender humor that relies on some simplistic and harmful assumptions. While we have no way of knowing the ins and outs dnp's exact attractions (and tbh I don't want to, it feels very personal and like autumn said, at least from what Dan said in BIG I would think he doesn't have any real aversion, leading me to take this as a quite passing remark), this being an attempt at humor without that exact knowledge boils down to a transphobic sentiment/assumption of 'penises are inherent features of men, vaginas inherent features of women'.

Now I think in communities like these where it's generally agreed that 'transphobia is very bad' It can feel shocking to be confronted by things like this, coming from people (a person) who we know is very supportive of trans people. I think because of the variety of other internal logics going on it makes it feel strong to label something like this as a 'transphobic statement' and I trust completely that it was not meant that way. However it does rely on trans-exclusive logic that is deeply engrained into our conceptualization of gender. So I will call it cisnormative, at best.

So does it really fucking matter? Not really but kinda yeah?? Our short, quick communication common in humor and entertainment is always laden with shortcutting simplifications that often have harmful roots when examined and pulled apart. In the great scheme of things, with people like dnp that I trust to not mean harm and also continue to learn I see this as a passing remark not worth much, but certainly still harmful on a low level of normalization and hurting some people who hear it. For me, I'm not really mad, or particular hurt personally, but I do think it's important to have conversations like these where we can slow down and break apart the logic to understand why things can be harmful.

Sidenote to lefthandedism who I assume didn't mean any harm by it and others that may be unaware or just haven't thought about it; I would personally encourage you to try to steer yourself away from terms like 'female genitalia' as it... doesn't really mean anything? In the interests of trying to break away from harmful language conflating gender and sex, and just not making trans people feel shitty, just being specific about what exact body parts you mean is a lot better than referring to certain body parts or body functions as female or male, feminine or masculine, etc. (I reeeeally don't want to make you feel bad or like I am mad at you, I just wanted to mention it in case it was something you just hadn't thought about!!)

[TuxedoSam]

Thanks for your post inanerat, you are right and i agree but just on this :

Sidenote to lefthandedism who I assume didn't mean any harm by it and others that may be unaware or just haven't thought about it; I would personally encourage you to try to steer yourself away from terms like 'female genitalia' as it... doesn't really mean anything? In the interests of trying to break away from harmful language conflating gender and sex, and just not making trans people feel shitty, just being specific about what exact body parts you mean is a lot better than referring to certain body parts or body functions as female or male, feminine or masculine, etc. (I reeeeally don't want to make you feel bad or like I am mad at you, I just wanted to mention it in case it was something you just hadn't thought about!!)

I really didn't know female genitalia don't mean anything ? female means a living that can produce offspring and genitilia, well, means genitilia ? So i don't get it how it's not accurate ?

Well, thinking about it more now, i think i get it, female and male can make a trans person shitty for some reason, because they associate it with being a woman or a man ? is that what you mean ?
Sorry it's very late were i'm right now and my brain is struggling to understand this

[shan]

People are obviously more than their genitals but, in general, I think the media we consume desensitises us to mention of these things as it's so mainstream and common that it's barely noticeable unless you are already sensitive to the topic. Thinking back, RPDR UK last night was basically all about dick and it barely registered with me until now. I'll be the first to admit that, despite being a supporter of trans rights, my knowledge of trans issues is not top notch. It's something a lot of us are learning as we go along and maybe this will be the next thing we cringe about looking back in 5 years.

I'm going to take a breather for a while to make sure anyone who may have found my comments to be creating an unsafe or uncomfortable environment don't feel compelled to stay away because of my presence. That is the absolute last thing I would ever want to happen and I'm genuinely gutted I've made anyone feel that way.

Before I log off, I want to quickly clarify something just in case anyone was offended by the bolded comment. This was never intended to be taken as a 'get over it' statement, it was me realising how desensitised those of us who aren't sensitive to these topics actually are. I did just mean that while I was writing the comment, I was thinking back on a one hour TV program I watched and how frequent something clearly not in the best of taste for the trans community was brought up, despite being a show geared towards LGBTQ+. The absolute last thing of my mind when writing it was that sentence being interpreted as the trans community needs to get over it.

Anyway sorry if this is overly dramatic, I'm sad and tired.

[scientia]

I felt slightly uncomfortable listening to them today but I did like the game. Not a fan of the commitment talk though so hope we're done with that.

Can we discuss why this commitment talk has become a Thing? Because Dan is bringing it up waaay too much lately just for it to be a coincidence. (Also I am not sure that commitment issues is what he has. From the way he talks, it seems more something along the abandonment issue spectrum rather than the commitment one).

Bringing this back from page #2 because yeah, he brings it up a lot. I'm of two minds lately - 1) they're semi-close to moving into a property they've bought, with a deed and all sorts of legal commitments - maybe he's just super exposed to things that make him feel vaguely anxious right now, as anyone would be when dealing with buying vs. renting. Although, 2) I'm starting to wonder...at what point should we all take Dan's words at face value re: his feelings about commitment? Seems kind of odd to continuously try to force a 'relationship interpretation' edit on his words.

[Thestubborn]

you didn’t get my point, saying I’m not attracted to vagina/penis because I’m gay/lesbian is fine but using words that are considered derogatory against women is not fine . I don’t think they are sexist because they are not attracted to vagina but they shouldn’t use sexist words to refer to women, that was the issue for me. anyway thanks to the people who explained that it’s taken out of context they were not talking about women

I see your point and I agree that they shouldnt use derogatory words to refer to women. However, I don’t think they were necessarily using slit as a word for women. For example, I hear lots of girls who are lesbians say the “don’t like dick” or they’re “not into penis,” etc. and i don’t consider that derogatory and i don’t even see it as them using dick/penis to refer to a man. And, as we know, there can be women with a penis and men with a “”slit”” so it seems to actually be more hurtful to trans folk to equate genitals with gender (which we as viewers are doing; dan did not do that).

I think Dan just saw the opportunity for a joke when talking about the blinds bc of the Arca song and went for it.

Not relating this to what dan said, he didn't mean it but to me it's not saying you don't like penis / vagina. it's not the word penis. Slit is a derogatory word for vagina. Penis is not. dick is not and in fact any slang for a penis never was derogatory. I can't find any (maybe someone know some ? i don't know.) Yet when people talk about vagina some can use words like that and it really make the female genital sound like a disgusting thing. I think people just shouldn't use "slit" for vagina. Maybe some girls like the word "slit" for their genitals but i never saw any ?

Exactly, slits is considered derogatory against women, But penis is not considered derogatory against men, the comparison is not fair .
My first post was about sexism/misogyny it was never about attraction or sexuality.
I apologize for everyone who thought I’m homophobic or transphobic that was not my intention at all I’m sorry

[alittledizzy]

I'm not going to make this an official mod note, but just an offer: i know sometimes we cover topics on here that may feel very personal to people. If f anyone is at any point feeling unsafe with a topic we're discussing, feel free to message me privately and I'll let you know when the topic has moved on. Just as a user of this forum and a member of this community I really want everyone to feel comfortable.

That said, I'm gonna throw another topic out there: Zoe and Alfie just announced they're having a baby.

So. Dan and Phil: dog, when?

[liola]

That said, I'm gonna throw another topic out there: Zoe and Alfie just announced they're having a baby.

So. Dan and Phil: dog, when?

The subtle comparison of a child to a dog is SENDING me just so you know

I'm assuming it'll be sometime after theyve moved into the house, they will want to settle down a little bit. As someone who has similar control and commitment issue to Dan i would Not Recommend moving and adopting a pet at the same time it's absolutely overwhelming. That said who knows, if phils allergies are truly getting worse i assume they might not go for it without really careful planning. I'm not a dog expert but for cats there are breeds who don't give you allergies, is it the same for dogs?

[madytastic]

That said, I'm gonna throw another topic out there: Zoe and Alfie just announced they're having a baby.

So. Dan and Phil: dog, when?

The subtle comparison of a child to a dog is SENDING me just so you know

I'm assuming it'll be sometime after theyve moved into the house, they will want to settle down a little bit. As someone who has similar control and commitment issue to Dan i would Not Recommend moving and adopting a pet at the same time it's absolutely overwhelming. That said who knows, if phils allergies are truly getting worse i assume they might not go for it without really careful planning. I'm not a dog expert but for cats there are breeds who don't give you allergies, is it the same for dogs?

YES!! There are hypoallergenic dogs out there, I've been trying to send a voice message talking about this but it's never been selected lol

[alittledizzy]

That said, I'm gonna throw another topic out there: Zoe and Alfie just announced they're having a baby.

So. Dan and Phil: dog, when?

The subtle comparison of a child to a dog is SENDING me just so you know

I'm assuming it'll be sometime after theyve moved into the house, they will want to settle down a little bit. As someone who has similar control and commitment issue to Dan i would Not Recommend moving and adopting a pet at the same time it's absolutely overwhelming. That said who knows, if phils allergies are truly getting worse i assume they might not go for it without really careful planning. I'm not a dog expert but for cats there are breeds who don't give you allergies, is it the same for dogs?

YES!! There are hypoallergenic dogs out there, I've been trying to send a voice message talking about this but it's never been selected lol

While I'm a very firm adopt-don't-shop advocate, if they are gonna get a hypoallergenic dog I could see them going with some kind of mid-size terrier. (Or a border terrier but that's just me thinking those dogs are freaking adorable.)

[Levitating]

I've seen on Tumblr and perhaps here too that what Dan calls a commitment issues is actually fear of abandonment?
Could someone please elaborate on the difference for me?

As for Zoella and Alfie, I am so happy for them!! And jealous again: another long-term relationship that lasts and creates wonders like these

But, you know, DnP's tone and words about the dog on the Stereo made me think that they are actually stepping back from the idea of getting a dog, rather than getting closer (or staying in the same place). Like, they elaborate on reasons not to have one, even while people were saying the positives. Like, Phil's allergy is a real issue that... had they ever pushed before?

[alittledizzy]

I've seen on Tumblr and perhaps here too that what Dan calls a commitment issues is actually fear of abandonment?
Could someone please elaborate on the difference for me?

It's basically that the committing to something/loving something isn't what he's actually afraid of. What he's afraid of is what will happen if he loses the thing he commits to. Like with Norman - he didn't have dreams where getting Norman made him afraid. He had dreams where Norman died or something happened to him, that's what his anxiety was based in.

Same with the dog. He's not afraid to get a dog because having a dog seems scary. He's afraid of what happens to him if he gets the dog and loves it too much and something happens to the dog.

[noodlebum]

I can relate to that bit - I still have dreams of bad things happening to my childhood dog, and it makes me feel helpless and horrid when I wake up.
And my current pet gecko features in many surreal catastrophes and dramas in my dreams like Dan said with Norman, and yet my other half doesn't. Weird isn't it.

[liola]

I've seen on Tumblr and perhaps here too that what Dan calls a commitment issues is actually fear of abandonment?
Could someone please elaborate on the difference for me?

It's basically that the committing to something/loving something isn't what he's actually afraid of. What he's afraid of is what will happen if he loses the thing he commits to. Like with Norman - he didn't have dreams where getting Norman made him afraid. He had dreams where Norman died or something happened to him, that's what his anxiety was based in.

Same with the dog. He's not afraid to get a dog because having a dog seems scary. He's afraid of what happens to him if he gets the dog and loves it too much and something happens to the dog.

Yeah this. While commitment issues are more on what that responsibility/commitment will do to you, the fear that it will make your life worse, have less enjoyment, it feels more like the commitment is taking something from you i guess i would explain it. The difference is that Dan seems to mostly thinks of what happens once the commitment is "over", how he will feel, because he wouldn't have control over it.

I guess there's also some fear of commitment mixed in as in regrets (like his comments on tattoos and dyeing his hair) but when it comes to a pet it's definitely more on the abandonment side


Also thank you for informing me about hypoallergenic dogs, i get sniffly around dogs so i didn't know there were also breeds who wouldn't give me that issue!!

[fruitcriminals]

What I don't understand in any of this, is why his counsellor or therapist hasn't told him that grief manifests in different ways and the norman dreams are completely normal, or why he vocalises it all as I have this or I have that. It's never, I need to work on my x or anything.

Just seems weird for someone who has already finished writing a mental health book. Read this book, follow my tips and you too will still be too freaked out to get married or buy a dog? It's an odd tactic.

[inanerat]

Thanks for your post inanerat, you are right and i agree but just on this :

Sidenote to lefthandedism who I assume didn't mean any harm by it and others that may be unaware or just haven't thought about it; I would personally encourage you to try to steer yourself away from terms like 'female genitalia' as it... doesn't really mean anything? In the interests of trying to break away from harmful language conflating gender and sex, and just not making trans people feel shitty, just being specific about what exact body parts you mean is a lot better than referring to certain body parts or body functions as female or male, feminine or masculine, etc. (I reeeeally don't want to make you feel bad or like I am mad at you, I just wanted to mention it in case it was something you just hadn't thought about!!)

I really didn't know female genitalia don't mean anything ? female means a living that can produce offspring and genitilia, well, means genitilia ? So i don't get it how it's not accurate ?

Well, thinking about it more now, i think i get it, female and male can make a trans person shitty for some reason, because they associate it with being a woman or a man ? is that what you mean ?
Sorry it's very late were i'm right now and my brain is struggling to understand this

I think I worded this kinda funny, since words like 'female' do mean something in a social general definition context, so I'm gonna try to explain a little! Under the cut because the convo has moved on and also I totally understand if this kind of thing is a topic some folks may not have space for right now.

Certainly terms like 'female genitalia' do mean something, as most people would have the same sort of understanding by what was meant by that (vulva, vagina, etc.) which means it shares a general definition with many people. What I was attempting to get at by saying it doesn't really mean anything is that the intricacies of exactally what a term like 'female genitalia' start to deteriorate when you look deeper. While it is convenient in many cases, especially socially, to think of physical sex (I'm just talking about people, but other creatures also have natural variances) as a binary of male and female, two distinct sets of different physical qualities including external genitalia, internal reproductive organs, roles in procreation, hormones and puberty, etc., human sex does not actually completely conform to those common, strict binaries. Intersex people exist and people have many different varieties of variations and combinations of physical sex features.
This is from the Intersex Society of North America (underline by me):

In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.

So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.

(There's also a lot of potentially completely unnecessary surgical work done on children with intersex qualities in order to make their bodies conform to our binary sex system. I encourage anyone to learn more about this, although be warned it is potentially very triggering)

This makes the sex categories of 'female' and 'male' as well as physical features that we reference in connection to them like 'female genitals' not really able to be exactly defined. For the sake of both trans and intersex people, it is more accurate, and potentially (although not always) less upsetting or triggering to just name or list the exact body parts/functions/physical features you are referring to, rather than use a term like 'female genitals'.

ty for reading I hope you (anyone reading this, yes you) have a good day!

[dontpanic]

What I don't understand in any of this, is why his counsellor or therapist hasn't told him that grief manifests in different ways and the norman dreams are completely normal, or why he vocalises it all as I have this or I have that. It's never, I need to work on my x or anything.

Just seems weird for someone who has already finished writing a mental health book. Read this book, follow my tips and you too will still be too freaked out to get married or buy a dog? It's an odd tactic.

This isn't directed at you, I swear, just my thoughts on the topic in general. It's a valid stance to talk about his current mental state or whatever, especially somewhere with a strong 4th wall, but I didn't realize how sensitive I am to how critical the general tone is re: all this.

It's like, recovery takes years, getting better isn't always an upward progression, and an unfiltered comment in a liveshow isn't representative of what hurdles he's actually working on with his therapist, someone he's made clear he still sees and works with. Even the fact he's making those jokes might mean they're on his mind because they're something he's currently working on, we can't know. Maybe he hasn't processed the norman dreams yet. Considering what he's implied re: his trauma, considering how there's certainly things he hasn't shared, it absolutely is progress, knowing he's still uncomfortable with certain levels of commitment. Maybe he and his therapist have talked about how it will still take years to fix. Maybe parts of it are things he needs to adapt his life around rather than fix. Maybe a lot of things.

This isn't pre-scripted, we all seem to want him to talk about himself, as himself, instead of the persona we spent years wishing he'd drop. If we want him unfiltered we can't expect him to have reached nirvana.

Him being too scared to get a dog b/c he isn't ready, doesn't want to be responsible for something like a living being is 100% a valid stance and doesn't mean he hasn't progressed. For a long time I wanted a dog but was scared I'd fall into another depressive or manic episode and neglect it, and expressing that fear, realizing why I feared that commitment rather than being scared without considering the why, that was genuine progress for me. Years later now I have a dog, something I never thought I'd be ready for.

His book sounds like something encouraging readers to take those first steps, whether to see a therapist or little changes ppl can make to improve mental health even if the reader's as neuro-typical as possible. I'd bet my arm it's all stuff like "have a regular sleep schedule" and "do positive affirmations" and things we've all heard and been told. I mean, that's why he's has a professional collaborating on the book. What's special is that it's coming from someone so public about his journey, it's more motivating because it's coming from someone who was told to do those things but took a long time to internalize, who took a long time to ask for help, who thought the stuff he was going through was a forever thing. For a lot of people it would mean more coming from someone so publicly open about his flaws rather than a faceless mental health how-to book or whatever, that's why I'm so happy this book's coming out even though it'll be no use to me.

What his book doesn't sound like is a guide on how to perfect your mental health, and he never pretends that's something he can give us. It's how to start, how to improve. Now how to be perfect.

idk what I'm saying but I don't want to proofread lol.

[alittledizzy]

.... Phil and Dan are basically the same person now.

[ukhon]

Can anyone make out what Dan says at around 32:58 of their latest Stereo show? Something about lentils? ‘Nice and tender....(mumbles)’ it is driving me crazy

[glitterintheair]

The way I knew we would get a tweet like That eventually... but not from Phil. Why, Phil, why. I can barely handle one Dan, two is too much, I can’t do it.