Dan & Phil Part 99: OnlyPhans

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I come from Australia and we have a great health care system. I don't have to pay to see my GP but, depending on what I'm seeing them for, I think it's important to go into an appointment informed. For example if I'm visiting because I have a cold, whatever doc, do your thing. But if it's something more serious (persistent pain and mental health are past examples for me) I don't want to see a general practitioner without being able to give them background information including what has/hasn't worked for me in the past. A lot of these details won't be in your medical record, only what you're allergic to, previous referrals and the medication you've been given in the past. GPs know a little about a lot of things but they aren't specialists so advocating for your own situation is very important. It's not saying that you know better than the GP or that they don't know what they're doing. It's giving them the information they need to provide you with the best care they can. They can refer you to specialists but it's also important to remember that some of them have a set theory they work under in their field of speciality. For example, one psychologist I saw only did CBT. If that doesn't work for you and you know that, then your GP recommending them as a specialist isn't going to be helpful to you and that's a very emotional and expensive waste of an hour.

Obviously, in the context of Dan's book, the best way to know if a psychotherapy will work for you is after having sessions with an actual psychologist but it's also possible to get a feel for what they entail and from your own lived experience know what may/may not work for you if you are in a situation that makes therapy necessary.
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I guess for those mentioning that younger generations would already know a lot about this topic by growing up on the internet, there's also a lot of conflicting information and straight up misinformation out there, especially on social media. I remember when I was a teen on tumblr I saw so much mental health "info" posts that I now know are total BS. Having a book vetted by a reliable professional is a good source to turn to for people who spend a lot of time on social media and are inundated with so much information they feel overwhelmed or confused.

I also think that whether we are or aren't interested in the book has a lot to do with life experience, and since IDB trends a bit older we have a greater chance of already knowing most of what he'll present, so our interest really depends on whether we mind being presented with info we already know. I also think Dan explaining his YT career isn't a rebuke of his existing fans, it's just a way to give context to any readers who don't know him. Even if he was only targeting his own fans he'd still have to give this context in case they then gave it to a sibling or friend who might benefit, or their child since so many more of his fans have grown up by now.

I'm not gonna read because what I have is beyond the scope of what the book covers, but I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on his personal stories.
Megancita75 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:59 pm My only quibbles with the intro is that I do hope somewhere the book makes a distinction between general mental health issues (like depression and anxiety) and other mental health issues like mood cycling or hallucinations that require other techniques/interventions that are beyond the scope of this more general book.
This is a really good thing to point out! like, OCD gets misdiagnosed as generalized anxiety far too often, and bipolar misdiagnosed as depression can be life-threatening. Just a little note of what his book doesn't cover might be a good thing for readers experiencing something other than what his book covers and haven't realized it yet, especially since a lot of other mental health issues have enough overlapping similarities someone might then not seek the right kind of help.
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alittledizzy wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:08 pm
glitterintheair wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:48 pm Yeah I agree with opheliola, because here that mindset doesn’t really work. In my personal experience, I’ve always trusted doctors because they studied for their job, they exist for a reason, so I think they know better than I ever would. Like, I tell them what’s wrong with me, what I have tried before and then we work together to find a solution. But it’s the doctor the one suggesting me what might work, not the opposite. Especially ‘cause.. how would I know? I could read Dan’s book and want to take his advice but that doesn’t mean it’d be the good thing to do because we are all different people with different problems and a general advice can’t be effective on everyone. This is very subjective but I’d rather follow a qualified doctor’s advice than anyone else when it comes to my health.
I don't want to assume that no one in the US has a good experience with doctors, it depends a lot on what kind of insurance you have and what kind of care you can afford. But what I've always experienced is that if you don't go in advocating for yourself and what you want then you're just in and out in five minutes with the most basic of treatments. I saw a specialist doctor last week and I started out by saying, "I'm looking for non-medication options because of an ulcer." and it ended with the doctor telling me, as he walked out the door, to go home and take some over the counter naproxen. The entire thing was under fifteen minutes and I paid over $300 out of pocket for it which just reaffirmed for me that I have to know what will work for me and what I want out of an appointment, because most doctors here are just trying to fit the most appointments they can into a day for billing purposes.

I also can't say a therapist would for sure be the same because that's not covered in my insurance plan and I definitely can't afford to see one but this is just the mindset I work with and why a book like Dan's with an overview approach is appealing to me. If I did want to see one and had the money to pay for it, I would want to be able to pick a therapist with experience in the kind of techniques I am already interested in otherwise I'd be spending a small fortune therapist shopping.
The US healthcare system has a long long long history of dismissing the actual issues of women and POC specifically, in therapy and all other forms of healthcare, I don't even have to link a study to back me up because one google search says it all (even if you're not from the US, reading about bias by medical professionals in the US is a great way to get angry). for example, it's well documented that women are less likely to be listened to or prescribed medication (especially pain medication) because women are wrongly thought to be hysterical or more likely to overexaggerate. Also to the mental health point, for most of medical history only men were studied, so women (dan's main audience) don't get treated for a lot of things they should since a lot of times things like anxiety and adhd symptoms manifest differently

actually, I remember there was a Last Week Tonight episode on this, so if you don't feel like reading and want a well-researched intro primer I highly recommend watching this



And therapy is so so so expensive on most insurance plans so even if you're doing pretty well financially or if you're part of a good union it's super important to know what you want or else you're wasting money AND time since most therapists have a long wait time for first time appointments. Especially if seeking a psychiatrist, the average wait time for first time appointments is three months from scheduling. If you don't go into therapy knowing what you want, what you don't want, or how to describe what you want addressed, WHILE ALSO coming prepared enough to advocate for yourself, there's too big of a risk you'll end up having key problems dismissed.

anecdote on therapy, my ex's first therapist kept dismissing her anxiety saying it was "normal college girl problems" and instead focused on her sexuality which, since my ex grew up in a progressive family in a progressive city going to a progressive school, she felt comfortable enough with her sexuality that she gained nothing from talking to a therapist about it. when she finally changed therapists, she came in with an actual list of topics she wanted to discuss/address, and luckily this therapist actually listened

and personal about doctors on mental health, but while I got super lucky with my first psychiatrist, when I moved I had to try three different psychiatrists before finding a good replacement, one of which tried to halve a medication that is ER-visit level dangerous to change so drastically, while the other tried to diagnosis me with something I already knew didn't fit me, but if I hadn't done prior research (just a fun coincidence, but if I didn't push back I would've ended up with an incredibly expensive prescription and in the US medical field doctors often get paid by pharma companies for prescribing certain drugs).
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Hope you guys got your screenshots cause it looks like the previews have been taken down from both the Indigo and the Harper Collins websites! I guess those weren't supposed to be out yet but it's not my fault that his own publisher and the largest book retailer in Canada both uploaded previews lmao don't sue me pls
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EVERYONE FREEZE!!! It seems like the Indigo preview of the book wasn't the final copy as there's a typo in it. I also noticed that there was some wonky grammar so I guess this was a rough draft that somehow got uploaded by Indigo? This could mean that the author introduction in the actual book is going to be completely different from the one we read. Well...all I know is that someone from Indigo is definitely getting fired.
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qakie wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:16 am Hope you guys got your screenshots cause it looks like the previews have been taken down from both the Indigo and the Harper Collins websites! I guess those weren't supposed to be out yet but it's not my fault that his own publisher and the largest book retailer in Canada both uploaded previews lmao don't sue me pls
Anyone want to share screenshots? I missed this whole event 🤣
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Moderator Note

At this time, IDB will not host on the forum screenshots, copies, or excerpts of the portions of Dan's book that were released yesterday. Those files have since been taken down from the websites on which they appeared. Members continue to be free to share these via PM.

We fully support and encourage continued discussion of all aspects of Dan's book, including the portions that were taken down.
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Ooh interesting instagram story from Phil... wonder what kind of video this is for? Maybe it's the questions one and someone asked if he's hard to get along with?

My answer was very not close to the average one. I had it somewhere in the middle because I definitely think he's got his stubborn and dramatic moments.
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story for posterity:
alittledizzy wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:08 pm Ooh interesting instagram story from Phil... wonder what kind of video this is for? Maybe it's the questions one and someone asked if he's hard to get along with?

My answer was very not close to the average one. I had it somewhere in the middle because I definitely think he's got his stubborn and dramatic moments.
I'm over here wondering if this is the video that involves Dan? I have no distinct guesses around what the topic would be, but like - if they're talking about living with each other? Quizzing each other on personalities? Something in that realm? Sign me up!!
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I choose between kinda and not at all. I don’t really know if I would get on well with either in person (on a deep level) The traits I probably wouldn’t like in real like I find funny and entertaining watching them on screen. Louise saying that they left her alone at the theme park to go on the ride again when she was feeling unwell never sit well with me. It’s not something I’d allow in real life. It’s a hard question to answer. I think Dizzy is probably on the right lines of why he asked

Also I would really like a Phil video thanks
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liola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:32 pm Ah. Well, that's... uh completely different than what I'm used to and I wouldn't wanna speak for an entire country but I don't know many other people here who wouldn't also think the same as me. You don't just...go to a doctor and propose something to them? If you've tried something already and it didn't work then by all means make it known (although they usually have your file so most things are written there) but they just.. look at what has been done already, the problem at hand, talk to you, ask you questions then give the advice and receipt to go book whatever visit they suggested/buy whatever medication. And like... sure, you can refuse, I guess, nothing Is ever forced upon you but there isn't really a.. bargain about it?
I'm super late to this, but I find the whole health belief model very fascinating. It's very expensive to go to the doctor in the US usually, so I usually try to avoid it, if possible. However, the worst thing I've experienced here has been more related to the doctors wanting X treatment/medication to happen, but not realizing that insurance will not cover it. I spent more than 42 hours on the phone in 2021 alone just trying to get insurance coverage for a medication I have been taking for 6 years already, and I can't get it without insurance because it costs $7,800 per month. My insurance wanted me to try cheaper options that I had already tried and failed.

So essentially, in the US doctors' knowledge doesn't always line up with patient treatment and experience, and patients (and the administrative staff) often know more about the issues with billing than doctors. Sometimes I ask doctors for a different, cheaper, medication that is therapeutically equivalent. Or a non-stimuluant mental health medication so I don't have to deal with controlled substance laws. Or a doctor wants us to do XYZ thing but we can't afford it so we ask for ABC thing even though it isn't the preferred option (like for surgeries/chemo/etc).

But also we have so much medication advertising here that definitely influences things. Because health care - mental and physical - is industry here. So 🤷🏻‍♀️
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plinthofmylife wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:20 pm
liola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:32 pm Ah. Well, that's... uh completely different than what I'm used to and I wouldn't wanna speak for an entire country but I don't know many other people here who wouldn't also think the same as me. You don't just...go to a doctor and propose something to them? If you've tried something already and it didn't work then by all means make it known (although they usually have your file so most things are written there) but they just.. look at what has been done already, the problem at hand, talk to you, ask you questions then give the advice and receipt to go book whatever visit they suggested/buy whatever medication. And like... sure, you can refuse, I guess, nothing Is ever forced upon you but there isn't really a.. bargain about it?
I'm super late to this, but I find the whole health belief model very fascinating. It's very expensive to go to the doctor in the US usually, so I usually try to avoid it, if possible. However, the worst thing I've experienced here has been more related to the doctors wanting X treatment/medication to happen, but not realizing that insurance will not cover it. I spent more than 42 hours on the phone in 2021 alone just trying to get insurance coverage for a medication I have been taking for 6 years already, and I can't get it without insurance because it costs $7,800 per month. My insurance wanted me to try cheaper options that I had already tried and failed.

So essentially, in the US doctors' knowledge doesn't always line up with patient treatment and experience, and patients (and the administrative staff) often know more about the issues with billing than doctors. Sometimes I ask doctors for a different, cheaper, medication that is therapeutically equivalent. Or a non-stimuluant mental health medication so I don't have to deal with controlled substance laws. Or a doctor wants us to do XYZ thing but we can't afford it so we ask for ABC thing even though it isn't the preferred option (like for surgeries/chemo/etc).

But also we have so much medication advertising here that definitely influences things. Because health care - mental and physical - is industry here. So 🤷🏻‍♀️
Obviously i knew about the insurance problems influencing the medical industry of USA people cause it's a well known fact but i didn't realize it would mean this kind of.. distrust i guess for the field, or that you would need to do so much homework before a visit. That sounds exhausting and like it could lead to even more issues.

Coming from a completely different system you can see how even self help guides sound kind of scam-my to me. Like sure if someone is interested in reading them but i would never take any advice at face value and i wouldn't use it to solve any issue. This has been a very interesting conversation.

As an afterthought i wanted to add, for the people who said that old people are more inclined to believe doctors while young people are more likely to get informed and challenge them? That's completely opposite here lmao i can't tell how many older folks have the mentality that most medical issues are non existent and doctors are just smart folks that want to rip you off and you just need a walk on the hills and a good glass of wine to be okay, while young people are just more likely to believe a professional with education. I feel like I'm in a different universe lmao
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liola wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:23 pm
plinthofmylife wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:20 pm
liola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:32 pm Ah. Well, that's... uh completely different than what I'm used to and I wouldn't wanna speak for an entire country but I don't know many other people here who wouldn't also think the same as me. You don't just...go to a doctor and propose something to them? If you've tried something already and it didn't work then by all means make it known (although they usually have your file so most things are written there) but they just.. look at what has been done already, the problem at hand, talk to you, ask you questions then give the advice and receipt to go book whatever visit they suggested/buy whatever medication. And like... sure, you can refuse, I guess, nothing Is ever forced upon you but there isn't really a.. bargain about it?
I'm super late to this, but I find the whole health belief model very fascinating. It's very expensive to go to the doctor in the US usually, so I usually try to avoid it, if possible. However, the worst thing I've experienced here has been more related to the doctors wanting X treatment/medication to happen, but not realizing that insurance will not cover it. I spent more than 42 hours on the phone in 2021 alone just trying to get insurance coverage for a medication I have been taking for 6 years already, and I can't get it without insurance because it costs $7,800 per month. My insurance wanted me to try cheaper options that I had already tried and failed.

So essentially, in the US doctors' knowledge doesn't always line up with patient treatment and experience, and patients (and the administrative staff) often know more about the issues with billing than doctors. Sometimes I ask doctors for a different, cheaper, medication that is therapeutically equivalent. Or a non-stimuluant mental health medication so I don't have to deal with controlled substance laws. Or a doctor wants us to do XYZ thing but we can't afford it so we ask for ABC thing even though it isn't the preferred option (like for surgeries/chemo/etc).

But also we have so much medication advertising here that definitely influences things. Because health care - mental and physical - is industry here. So 🤷🏻‍♀️
Obviously i knew about the insurance problems influencing the medical industry of USA people cause it's a well known fact but i didn't realize it would mean this kind of.. distrust i guess for the field, or that you would need to do so much homework before a visit. That sounds exhausting and like it could lead to even more issues.

Coming from a completely different system you can see how even self help guides sound kind of scam-my to me. Like sure if someone is interested in reading them but i would never take any advice at face value and i wouldn't use it to solve any issue. This has been a very interesting conversation.

As an afterthought i wanted to add, for the people who said that old people are more inclined to believe doctors while young people are more likely to get informed and challenge them? That's completely opposite here lmao i can't tell how many older folks have the mentality that most medical issues are non existent and doctors are just smart folks that want to rip you off and you just need a walk on the hills and a good glass of wine to be okay, while young people are just more likely to believe a professional with education. I feel like I'm in a different universe lmao
Can absolutely confirm. Yes, very exhausting, and yes, absolutely just leads to more issues.
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Interesting zoom in on that screen Philly. What are you trying to not show us?
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This discussion of different medical systems has been very interesting and informative. It makes more sense of lots of people's reactions!
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Marika wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:37 pm Thank you so much for the previews! I finally wanted to preorder the book, but I‘m a bit confused.
I want to buy the UK version, but the two versions are listed with a rather big page count gap.
UK: 252
US: 320

I‘m sorry if this has been explained before, but does anyone know why there’s such a difference? Is it just formatting/font size? Are the number just wrong? Or is there actually additional content? (I doubt that’s the case but now I‘m scared of ordering the wrong book and missing out...)
Just bringing this over because I would also be interested in the answer if any of our great detectives can find the answer.
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lefthandedism wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:27 pm
Speaking of anecdotes, have we heard this one before?

"personally, my brain is more occupied randomly resurfacing the cringe-inducing memory of when I tripped into a teacher’s boob when I was 13"

I remember the one about him accidentally untying a girl's bathing suit top, but not this one.
I’m wondering if Dan actually walked into a teacher’s boob or just stole Phil’s story! I don’t remember which video, but I definitely remember Phil telling about walking around outside playing that he was in the Shadow Realm and walking into a teacher’s boob.

Found it! At time stamp 2:40

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Susanisnotafish wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:05 am
lefthandedism wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:27 pm
Speaking of anecdotes, have we heard this one before?

"personally, my brain is more occupied randomly resurfacing the cringe-inducing memory of when I tripped into a teacher’s boob when I was 13"

I remember the one about him accidentally untying a girl's bathing suit top, but not this one.
I’m wondering if Dan actually walked into a teacher’s boob or just stole Phil’s story! I don’t remember which video, but I definitely remember Phil telling about walking around outside playing that he was in the Shadow Realm and walking into a teacher’s boob.

Found it! At time stamp 2:40
Thanks for the answer and for putting a smile on my face with a lovely Phil video to wake up to! (Even featuring a Lion/Lioness cameo.) :happytears:
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We're approaching the end of this thread, so time to start thinking about names for the thread that will likely be in place when we discuss Dan's book for real. :reading1: Thoughts here. :reading2:
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It's quite interesting to see people's thoughts on healthcare around the world. I've always found the UK NHS a total mixed bag.

I am incredibly grateful to not have to use it. From the experiences of people I know, It's rather a postcode lottery here as to where you live, which GP surgery you go to, which Dr works there etc. You could go there with a terrible dermatological issue, speak to a GP who specialises in that and them help you out perfectly, then go back a year later with mental health issues and the same Dr just prescribes you a standard dose of antidepressants and sends you on your way with no referral for any type of talking therapy. Someone else could go to a GP who specialised in mental health, have their mental health issues addressed really well, but then the Dr won't refer you to a dermatologist for your other issue and insists you try out 7 creams first so 7 months and 7 appts later of you telling them they don't work they then think hmmm maybe I might refer you.

From the previews I think it sounds like something helpful for school libraries and for people like him who grow up in council estate type of places, when your parents work all day long until fairly late, give you dinner and then go to bed because they're exhausted and up again at 6am ready for work.

Perhaps not helpful for the middle class people who can afford not to use the NHS and whose parents are at home more and talk to their kids more, those of us who are not teens etc. but I do think it sounds helpful for people who are having trouble and don't have anyone to talk to and don't know where to start.

I think I'd suggest it to friends if they mentioned their teenagers were having a bad time or something like that? Perhaps it's a UK societal thing but I'm pretty sure if i tried suggesting to a friend that they take their kid to a GP or therapist they would be mortally offended and think I was accusing them of being a bad parent but if I said oh I heard of this book a YouTuber wrote, maybe get that, read it and then give it to them to read they might be ok with that?
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One thing I meant to note before but I can't believe Dan opens right up in his book about his parents fighting. How many childhood/teen stories about family upset are we gonna get in this? How does his mom feel about it? Is his dad even in the picture anymore enough for his opinion to register with Dan? I do think it would be slightly unavoidable to have a book with that kind of emotional honesty and leave out the things that shaped you as a child, but for Dan who so closely guarded his family's privacy that he didn't even reference his mother by name until Interactive Introverts, it's still a bit of a surprise to me.
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alittledizzy wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pm One thing I meant to note before but I can't believe Dan opens right up in his book about his parents fighting. How many childhood/teen stories about family upset are we gonna get in this? How does his mom feel about it? Is his dad even in the picture anymore enough for his opinion to register with Dan? I do think it would be slightly unavoidable to have a book with that kind of emotional honesty and leave out the things that shaped you as a child, but for Dan who so closely guarded his family's privacy that he didn't even reference his mother by name until Interactive Introverts, it's still a bit of a surprise to me.
I noticed that too. Quite possibly he's had a lot more open discussions with his family, and they've had a chance to air some of their issues and approach greater levels of comfort with each other. I'm sure he's at least warned them what he will allude to in the book and hopefully everyone's ok with it. I kind of think that Dan doesn't want to torpedo his relationship with his entire family at this point.
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alittledizzy wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pm One thing I meant to note before but I can't believe Dan opens right up in his book about his parents fighting. How many childhood/teen stories about family upset are we gonna get in this? How does his mom feel about it? Is his dad even in the picture anymore enough for his opinion to register with Dan? I do think it would be slightly unavoidable to have a book with that kind of emotional honesty and leave out the things that shaped you as a child, but for Dan who so closely guarded his family's privacy that he didn't even reference his mother by name until Interactive Introverts, it's still a bit of a surprise to me.
I would assume that he consulted his family before putting his issues with them in the book but I can't imagine this going down well with his mother considering she's a life coach and unlicensed therapist of sorts. Might feel like a betrayal that her own son is publicly stating that she gave him mental health problems meanwhile her career is based off helping other people fix their own.
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alittledizzy wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:57 pm One thing I meant to note before but I can't believe Dan opens right up in his book about his parents fighting. How many childhood/teen stories about family upset are we gonna get in this? How does his mom feel about it? Is his dad even in the picture anymore enough for his opinion to register with Dan? I do think it would be slightly unavoidable to have a book with that kind of emotional honesty and leave out the things that shaped you as a child, but for Dan who so closely guarded his family's privacy that he didn't even reference his mother by name until Interactive Introverts, it's still a bit of a surprise to me.

Seeing them so little especially during most of the time of writing the book, since it's been in lockdown, perhaps he has said more than they will be comfortable with? To be fair his history sounds so sad and it's awful nobody even noticed he was in that bad of a place as a teen and took him to a GP.

I'm not sure how you broach the subject of hey mum in this book I say that unlicensed therapists are not good and you must see a licensed therapist because if I don't I'll get lynched online, even though I know it's like, your profession and Adrian's? If even Phil said he learnt a few things about Dan from reading the book I kind of get the impression that he probably hasn't spoken about it with his mum in much detail? I guess... if he came out to them in an email talking to them in person is pretty hard for him.

I also feel like I did know his mum's name from ages ago, maybe he mentioned it back when he thought she'd never see it, like an ancient liveshow or tweet pre 2012 :shrug:
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I remember him saying (perhaps in the Attitude interview?) that his family's first reaction to his coming out was okay, but then December came or something and they started showing classical signs of homophobia - that kind of discrimination that hide itself behind a facade of manners and respect.

So I'd guess he just has the right to stop overthinking about it (or care for it) and hence the freedom to tackle family issues in his own book.
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