Dan & Phil Part 19: Banging on the breakfast bar

[coffee pig]

I think the big "issue" with "feminization" in the phandom is definitely the fact it's projecting heteronormativity, as someone said earlier. It pushes stereotypes that same sex relationships must always have a "boy" and a "girl". Some same sex relationships do have one with more feminine characteristics and more masculine characteristics, but I wouldn't consider that the case with D&P.

I think the reason I brought up Dan originally is because, like someone else said, it's more common with him since a lot of people consider him the more effiminate of thr two.

With Phil I actually see a lot of people trying to push him off as much more "masculine" than he actually is, which also ties into the same problem.

On another note, the whole punk and pastel thing in fanfics is something I've never truly understood at all. Those styles don't really reflect the way they dress at all (not that I find the styles themselves bad) and I get that it's an AU but I don't think I'll ever quite underatand why it's more commom to make Dan pastel amd make Phil punk when their actual clothing choices, while not being too similar, are closer to the other.

Isn't that...the point? I always thought people liked the pastel Dan and punk Phil edits because they were the exact opposite of their (projected) personas. It's a fun AU because it's so different to their current aesthetic choices. (Also Phil is hot as a punk, who are we kidding.) It also has to do to with the heteronormativity thing again, Dan is seen as the feminine one, which aligns with pastel, wihile punk is seen as masculine and agressive. If we're going to be real they are both pastel softies tho. It's true that Dan is the more "feminine" of the two (whatever that means, fuck gender roles man) but Phil is hardly that much more manly than he is. They are both quite "feminine" in different ways.

I don't necessarily think it's creepy to think that Dan or Phil would look good in nail polish or make-up. Maybe because I think that every man in the world would look better with a little black eyeliner, but I can see where you all are coming from.

[alittledizzy]

I think the big "issue" with "feminization" in the phandom is definitely the fact it's projecting heteronormativity, as someone said earlier. It pushes stereotypes that same sex relationships must always have a "boy" and a "girl". Some same sex relationships do have one with more feminine characteristics and more masculine characteristics, but I wouldn't consider that the case with D&P.

I think the difference in how I see this and how I'm realizing some see it is actually that I see Dan as someone who embraces a certain amount of things that are generally considered feminine, without feeling like his own masculinity is compromised to an extent he's bothered by. If Dan put nail polish on, I don't think it'd make him look more like a girl - I think it'd make him look like a man wearing nail polish. The same way when he holds a hello kitty mug or picks a pink headband for a fan photo or chooses a gender-less or feminine version of a jumper he's not suddenly a female version of Dan, he's just Dan ignoring that society says something is for girls. And I think Dan isn't bothered by that, obviously, since he chooses to wear those things publicly knowing his fanbase has eyes and knowledge of how to work google.

That said, I feel like I should also point out that I absolutely have no opinion on whether I want Dan to wear nail polish or not. I just think I'm not offended by the idea that people suggest it to Dan, because I don't see Dan as being offended by it. I'm also lumping together the pastel concept/nail polish together because they are things I see going hand in hand lately and maybe that was a mistake to do from the start of my response because maybe people are considering these different issues. From where i stand (not knowing much about it) the whole pastel thing seems to be just wanting to see men in clothing items that are stereotypically female colors and tones. I don't react to that as something I think Dan is desperate to do when not of his own choosing, but I don't react to it like something Dan would never do therefore people should be ashamed of bringing it up.

Editing my post just to agree with this:

If we're going to be real they are both pastel softies tho. It's true that Dan is the more "feminine" of the two (whatever that means, fuck gender roles man) but Phil is hardly that much more manly than he is.

That's sort of what I was trying to get at by pointing out in my post a few hours ago how there's a fixation with Dan in polish and Dan in pastels when Phil's probably just as suited to them, and in fact his wardrobe already includes some of that stuff.

[Anonymousse]

BLOOPERS



0:13; 0:36; 3:02; 3:32

Meh, I hope I didn't miss anything, but it was pretty meh. 3:32 - Dan laughed, that was nice.

[pixlexia]

I have on tweet notifications for Cornelia, and it seems she @ replied one of the old merch girls about holding onto one of her old fanny packs and "keep it for Playlist DC" with a smiley face added on. She since deleted it and replaced it with just a "keep it".

A quick google tells me Playlist is holding an event in DC early September. Guess we can possibly expect there?

(I feel hesitant publicizing information that was in a deleted tweet by people who aren't deppy themselves, but I was also a bit proud of myself for being sneaky, so I'm going to just laugh if this is already old news )

[DryCereal]

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

I'm all for turning the analysis back on the fans, i find it fascinating too. but just because you aren't personally interested in something, doesn't mean those who are are 'weird and creepy'.

feminising dan and phil seems harmless and non-offensive to me, what makes me uncomfortable is people on here being uncomfortable with it, as if it's somehow distasteful to imagine a man feminised.

It's not the idea that makes me uncomfortable, it's the actively pushing the idea onto that I don't care for. Imagine all you want, but don't push.

This. So much this.

[sandylovesdan]

Please spread the word in the fandom and vote for Phil as Online Champion in the Radio Times competition (UK tv magazine) Let's crush the SacconejJolys who are currently in the lead with 52% ... 19 hours to do some damage and get Phil on track to win You can vote over and over ...but might get a sore wrist lol

[sandylovesdan]

Please spread the word in the fandom and vote for Phil as Online Champion in the Radio Times competition (UK tv magazine) Let's crush the SacconejJolys who are currently in the lead with 52% ... 19 hours to do some damage and get Phil on track to win You can vote over and over ...but might get a sore wrist lol
http://www.radiotimes.com/onlinechampion

PS Jonathan Joly has been voting for himself and bribing his fans to vote with a new camera giveaway, talk about cheating

(sorry had to post again as wouldnt let me post link in my first post)

[time-will-tell]

I have on tweet notifications for Cornelia, and it seems she @ replied one of the old merch girls about holding onto one of her old fanny packs and "keep it for Playlist DC" with a smiley face added on. She since deleted it and replaced it with just a "keep it".

A quick google tells me Playlist is holding an event in DC early September. Guess we can possibly expect there?

(I feel hesitant publicizing information that was in a deleted tweet by people who aren't deppy themselves, but I was also a bit proud of myself for being sneaky, so I'm going to just laugh if this is already old news )

Interesting, maybe they are going. But doesn't playlist annouce who's going months in advance so people can decide if they wanna go or not? Playlist dc is mostly for smaller youtubers and viners as far as I know. The crew might just be going to sell the merch for them. The USA shop is a part of district lines and most youtubers do use it. So why not take that time to sell merch at a smaller convention even if they aren't going to be there?
Edit: playlist dc starts September 2nd, their last tour date in Australia is the 25th of August. I can't actually see them going from one end of the world to another after a tour like that. And the guest haven't been announced yet so let's see what happens. But I really doubt they are going.

[DryCereal]

I think I've got him beat today... Poor love.

[SquishPhan]

I think I've got him beat today... Poor love.

Poor Phil, he really is such a clumsy person.

And how do you beat that Ickle?

[Catallena]

I have on tweet notifications for Cornelia, and it seems she @ replied one of the old merch girls about holding onto one of her old fanny packs and "keep it for Playlist DC" with a smiley face added on. She since deleted it and replaced it with just a "keep it".

A quick google tells me Playlist is holding an event in DC early September. Guess we can possibly expect there?

(I feel hesitant publicizing information that was in a deleted tweet by people who aren't deppy themselves, but I was also a bit proud of myself for being sneaky, so I'm going to just laugh if this is already old news )

Doubt it, they never go to the other Playlist. Just the Orlando one. There will probably just be a merch stand for D&P, Chris and Carrie from IRL Digital.


About the nail polish thing, the problem is that Dan has said 'No' in the nicest way possible two times now (and in a less nice way back in 2012) and part of the phandom still doesn't get the hint that he just doesn't want to do that. It got shit to do with embracing or rejecting gender roles for himself, he's just not into doing that specific thing (and possibly several other traditionally 'feminine' thing. But Dan will never outright say no (not anymore anyway) so those people in the phandom will continue doing as they please. And that makes me very uncomfortable.

About feminization of a person in gay ships, it's incredibly common among shippers especially ones who grew up in homophobic environments. They like a gay ship and are probably even pro-LGBT (not always tho how fucked up is that), but to make themselves feel less guilty about going aginst what they were taught they begin feminizing one character in their ship. Sometimes is goes into full imagines of the character being a cis girl while the other character remains a cis boy. It's super creepy and problematic but it happens a lot, so it's not surprising that this would happen in the phandom too.

imo it sometimes comes down to people not thinking they're ~queer enough~. there's certainly a decent portion of the phandom who want them to be more like troye sivan or olly alexander and become political statements in themselves. people want them to represent bigger societal ideas that they shouldn't have to do. some people associate going against gendered societal norms as a sign of being a better person and a gentle angel bean uwu despite the fact that supporting something as an idea doesn't mean you need to do it yourself.

Also all of this. I think this is another reason why Dan probably will never outright say no, because he's afraid to offend people who will take it as a sign that he's against the idea even though he's obviously not against it at all. Just not always for himself.

[DryCereal]

I think I've got him beat today... Poor love.

Poor Phil, he really is such a clumsy person.

And how do you beat that Ickle?

Not clumsy, but I have had (yet another!) surgery today! Stubbed toe? Suck it up, Lester!

About the nail polish thing, the problem is that Dan has said 'No' in the nicest way possible two times now (and in a less nice way back in 2012) and part of the phandom still doesn't get the hint that he just doesn't want to do that. It got shit to do with embracing or rejecting gender roles for himself, he's just not into doing that specific thing (and possibly several other traditionally 'feminine' thing. But Dan will never outright say no (not anymore anyway) so those people in the phandom will continue doing as they please. And that makes me very uncomfortable.

imo it sometimes comes down to people not thinking they're ~queer enough~. there's certainly a decent portion of the phandom who want them to be more like troye sivan or olly alexander and become political statements in themselves. people want them to represent bigger societal ideas that they shouldn't have to do. some people associate going against gendered societal norms as a sign of being a better person and a gentle angel bean uwu despite the fact that supporting something as an idea doesn't mean you need to do it yourself.

Also all of this. I think this is another reason why Dan probably will never outright say no, because he's afraid to offend people who will take it as a sign that he's against the idea even though he's obviously not against it at all. Just not always for himself.

[Diyes_Celine]

Please spread the word in the fandom and vote for Phil as Online Champion in the Radio Times competition (UK tv magazine) Let's crush the SacconejJolys who are currently in the lead with 52% ... 19 hours to do some damage and get Phil on track to win You can vote over and over ...but might get a sore wrist lol
http://www.radiotimes.com/onlinechampion

PS Jonathan Joly has been voting for himself and bribing his fans to vote with a new camera giveaway, talk about cheating

(sorry had to post again as wouldnt let me post link in my first post)

Yes! Vote for Phil.

First,its because I hate SacconejJolys. Stop exploiting your children!
Also, if he wins this round he will be competing against Dan. As A Philion, I have accepted that we can never win againts the dedicated Dangirls. BUT it will be interesting to see if the Phandom will try to make the voting 50-50. I just want some drama because the mean Dangirls are active in Tumblr lately. Hahaha

But this is what I like about Deppy. Obviously, they can win voting contests if they ask their fans. But they don't care about those things so the phandom don't get involved in such things.

[pixlexia]

I have on tweet notifications for Cornelia, and it seems she @ replied one of the old merch girls about holding onto one of her old fanny packs and "keep it for Playlist DC" with a smiley face added on. She since deleted it and replaced it with just a "keep it".

A quick google tells me Playlist is holding an event in DC early September. Guess we can possibly expect there?

(I feel hesitant publicizing information that was in a deleted tweet by people who aren't deppy themselves, but I was also a bit proud of myself for being sneaky, so I'm going to just laugh if this is already old news )

Doubt it, they never go to the other Playlist. Just the Orlando one. There will probably just be a merch stand for D&P, Chris and Carrie from IRL Digital.

Oops. To be honest I never knew there were other Playlist events at all outside of Orlando. I'm out of the loop on this one.

Phil tweet: I'm always curious how their tweeting mechanics work. Example, does he do something really clumsy and think "this would be a great tweet," or is it reversed and it's like "I need to meet my tweet quota, what's something I can say"

[SquishPhan]

I think I've got him beat today... Poor love.

Poor Phil, he really is such a clumsy person.

And how do you beat that Ickle?

Not clumsy, but I have had (yet another!) surgery today! Stubbed toe? Suck it up, Lester!

Okay, you do have Phil beat.

[LurkingTrash]

About the nail polish thing, the problem is that Dan has said 'No' in the nicest way possible two times now (and in a less nice way back in 2012) and part of the phandom still doesn't get the hint that he just doesn't want to do that. It got shit to do with embracing or rejecting gender roles for himself, he's just not into doing that specific thing (and possibly several other traditionally 'feminine' thing. But Dan will never outright say no (not anymore anyway) so those people in the phandom will continue doing as they please. And that makes me very uncomfortable.

About feminization of a person in gay ships, it's incredibly common among shippers especially ones who grew up in homophobic environments. They like a gay ship and are probably even pro-LGBT (not always tho how fucked up is that), but to make themselves feel less guilty about going aginst what they were taught they begin feminizing one character in their ship. Sometimes is goes into full imagines of the character being a cis girl while the other character remains a cis boy. It's super creepy and problematic but it happens a lot, so it's not surprising that this would happen in the phandom too.

imo it sometimes comes down to people not thinking they're ~queer enough~. there's certainly a decent portion of the phandom who want them to be more like troye sivan or olly alexander and become political statements in themselves. people want them to represent bigger societal ideas that they shouldn't have to do. some people associate going against gendered societal norms as a sign of being a better person and a gentle angel bean uwu despite the fact that supporting something as an idea doesn't mean you need to do it yourself.

Also all of this. I think this is another reason why Dan probably will never outright say no, because he's afraid to offend people who will take it as a sign that he's against the idea even though he's obviously not against it at all. Just not always for himself.

yes, yes, yes. Thank you

the voting thing: the website won't let me vote, idk why? so I'll just mildly care about it and cheer for you guys, lol.

snokoplasm.com: I liked it, it was funny and the format is nice, hopefully the website will work for everyone soon.

[alittledizzy]

About feminization of a person in gay ships, it's incredibly common among shippers especially ones who grew up in homophobic environments. They like a gay ship and are probably even pro-LGBT (not always tho how fucked up is that), but to make themselves feel less guilty about going aginst what they were taught they begin feminizing one character in their ship. Sometimes is goes into full imagines of the character being a cis girl while the other character remains a cis boy. It's super creepy and problematic but it happens a lot, so it's not surprising that this would happen in the phandom too.

What you're describing is definitely problematic behavior, but to me completely different from discussing a man wearing or liking genderless or typically feminine items when the man himself actually has/does. Does Dan wear nailpoilsh? No. Does Dan express disgust or seem put off by the questions fans are asking him? No. Is anyone twisting Dan's arm absolutely making him? Of course not.

I feel like going from nail polish to 'shipper fangirls making him a girl bc HOMOPHOBIA' is skipping like a whole wide gray area there. There is plenty of potential for people to be falling into both camps (which again, yes, the situation you stated is problematic) but there's also a lot of other viewpoints to consider here, both from Dan himself and from other fans. Phandom is not a hive mind nor does it have hive values or hive mentalities or hive... formative experiences leading to homophobic behavior, lol.

[Catallena]

About feminization of a person in gay ships, it's incredibly common among shippers especially ones who grew up in homophobic environments. They like a gay ship and are probably even pro-LGBT (not always tho how fucked up is that), but to make themselves feel less guilty about going aginst what they were taught they begin feminizing one character in their ship. Sometimes is goes into full imagines of the character being a cis girl while the other character remains a cis boy. It's super creepy and problematic but it happens a lot, so it's not surprising that this would happen in the phandom too.

What you're describing is definitely problematic behavior, but to me completely different from discussing a man wearing or liking genderless or typically feminine items when the man himself actually has/does. Does Dan wear nailpoilsh? No. Does Dan express disgust or seem put off by the questions fans are asking him? No. Is anyone twisting Dan's arm absolutely making him? Of course not.

I feel like going from nail polish to 'shipper fangirls making him a girl bc HOMOPHOBIA' is skipping like a whole wide gray area there. There is plenty of potential for people to be falling into both camps (which again, yes, the situation you stated is problematic) but there's also a lot of other viewpoints to consider here, both from Dan himself and from other fans. Phandom is not a hive mind nor does it have hive values or hive mentalities or hive... formative experiences leading to homophobic behavior, lol.

Nothing in the part you just quoted was about nail polish, it was about feminization being pushed onto gay ships and why that happens because it was a topic that came up with the nail polish stuff. I just shared what I and many others have observed in various fandoms that also deal with this. Nowhere did I say that all people who want Dan to wear nail polish are feminizing him, some even because they have lowkey homophobic opinions.

In fact, I carefully stated that it's SOME people and only PART of the phandom who don't get the hint or just blatantly ignore Dan's discomfort and then said that the common reasons for why feminization of one person/character in a gay ship runs rampant in many fandoms can also be found in the phandom. How much clearer do I have to make it that I do not consider the phandom a hivemind?? Certain groups within any fandoms can have a hivemind though (because people with the same opinions will automatically be drawn towards each other) and those often cause problems depending on what those opinions are. Example: Phan. Most Phan shippers are generally pretty chill and keep their theories and fangirling to themselves or their cirlcles. But there's also a group who decides to be problematic and obnoxious about it. It's the same with nail polish for me.

And nobody might be actually twisting Dan's arm, but imo the pressuring still happens just in a more subtle and sneaky way. And that's still wrong.

[RachelPhan]

Re:- voting. It's took me 20 clicks for it to go up .1% I'll be here all night to make sure my Philly wins and not those twats I know it's not just me clicking but I'm helping haha

[internetakeover]

I'm really enjoying the nail polish conversation (hi mermaid it's so good to see you!), I must admit I'd never thought much beyond my instinct of 'hey that'd be cool' and 'if the boys aren't bothered by people talking about nail polish then I see no reason to be bothered about it', so I'm loving seeing this considered discussion.

While I don't consider it creepy in any way, I can definitely see jaej's point about fans (*cough*me*cough*) liking it because it has queer associations, and people like to see that from them, b/c representation, and you're totally right that that's unfair. I agree with dizzy that that's in no way all of it, as well - I like to see bullshit gender stereotypes broken, too, and again it's unfair to push that on them as an expectation, but I do think it's an okay thing to want? As I said, my instinctive response is 'oh yeah it'd be so cool to see them do that', to see them break those roles, and I don't think that's actively harmful? Pushing them/expecting things, maybe, but - again, as dizzy said - it's far from the worst thing being pushed at them at any given time, and they don't seem bothered by it. It's 100% unfair to push them to be representative of an issue, they shouldn't have to be and shouldn't be pressured to do so, but just liking the idea of something and having fun with that idea in fandom spaces I don't think is an issue, and that's all I've personally seen. I've not even really seen that much of it, compared to some other fandom trends, although that's of course entirely dependent on who specifically you follow.

I also don't think that just because they might not want to do something fans can't talk about the idea, you know? Talking about it is not immediately pressuring, in my opinion. I think there's been a growing association around fandom generally assuming that just b/c fandom likes something they want to see it from the media they consume, that they're demanding it from their media, and I personally don't make that association. (but that might be a different conversation entirely, and possibly is just a personal thing!)

[DryCereal]

For those asking, Radio Times is a TV/Radio listings magazine... It's published (or was, certainly!) by the BBC. So it would be good to get to win, don't cha think?
Dick move putting them against each other early on though. Bad Auntie!!!

[RachelPhan]

Yessss Phil is winning!(for now)

and now he's not I give up

[SquishPhan]

Yessss Phil is winning!(for now)

Not anymore.

[Winston]

Been voting all day! I the the SJs should be disqualified for bribing. And also just for being icky. They give me t he heebie jeebies.

[danphil333]

For those asking, Radio Times is a TV/Radio listings magazine... It's published (or was, certainly!) by the BBC. So it would be good to get to win, don't cha think?
Dick move putting them against each other early on though. Bad Auntie!!!

phil won the same thing last December. why is there a competition again?
i cant be bothered to vote but i hate the sacconejolys ..Ugh
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-12- ... w-champion

why cant i be one of phils freckles instead of a sad dimple ?