Dan & Phil Part 34: It's a post-baking universe

[bluewho]

i wonder how it feels to put out content for it to just get lost in all the phan moments.

I think I just feel like this is kind of disparaging of 'phan moments', as if watching Dan and Phil interact in genuine, and let's face it, totally adorable manner is some kind of evil or 'bad' or shameful thing. I don't really understand why the phandom's appreciation of two people expressing their affection for each other is such a bad thing.

I think Dan has worried about people watching him just because he's attractive, but that is very different from an audience appreciating content that is based around them being less repressed with each other/ being comfortable to be a bit more touchy-feely.

(IF you look at them as a closeted couple who have tried to deny their relationship at times (as I do), then phandom appreciation for them feeling more comfortable being touchy-feely with each other is support for their relationship, support for them being a bit more 'out', appreciation of genuine interaction. None of that is a bad, degrading thing.)

Anyway, this is all very biased, and personal, and if you don't 'see' phan then you aren't going to know what I'm talking about etc etc.

Also I don't think non-shippers are mocked, I think non-shippers who make arguments like 'It's all a huge act and Dan is just saying he likes men to be relatable' get mocked (i.e. those who make borderline homophobic arguments). At least that all I've seen on twitter.

To sum up: for me a 'phan moment' can be some hilarious point in the conversation, one that feels genuine and when you can see the fondness between these two guys - it's nice to watch people who like each other have a good time in each other's company and have a laugh so sue me.

[jesuisunèléve]

For what it's worth here's my take and thoughts on the nature of D&P's relationship...

I think first you need to rewind the clock to 2009 and establish their mental states and drives at the time. In 2009 Dan was wrapping up with his secondary education, had a small group of friends and girlfriend, but was otherwise still pining for someone or something he could really connect with—you get the sense that he kept to himself a lot and was going through that age of "ugh, nobody gets me" and was particularly indifferent towards his family. With his theatre experiences behind him now, his primary escapism outlet was YouTube—he references in TABINOF that at one point he had viewed nearly 40k videos, YouTube wasn't just his idle entertainment, it was his obsession. Dan idolized youtubers, and given how relatively small the platform was at the time, he started developing connections with these creators and would message and leave comments like any other fanboy, and some of them even responded back. Enter Phil.

Phil was wrapping up his university studies and had been making videos for a few years already by 2009, while not huge, he had a steadily growing audience, which included Dan. Phil was still presumably still in an emotionally low point after the death of his flat mate of 3 years and when Dan reached out to Phil and expressed their common interests, they started to naturally click. Phil had already started to explore his bisexuality by this point, and here was this cute younger guy showing interest in all the same things who was clearly looking to connect with someone on more than just a surface level, and so the flirtations began.

In the beginning I think there were clear romantic overtones to their relationship, which included intimacy and sex. At the core Dan was enamored with Phil (maybe even in a slightly opportunistic sense) and after they finally meet, distance was hardly a limiting factor and it served as a nice escape from Dan's home life which he longed to get far away from. Dan of course eventually moved to Manchester to attend university and after a year moved in with Phil (though they practically spent most of their time together anyway).

Here's where conjecture begins... At some point during this time, maybe even as a condition of moving in together, I think they decided, likely at Dan's insistence, that they put their romantic relationship aside in order for living together and working together to truly work. I think Dan was having trouble understanding his sexuality and chalked up their earlier romantic engagement to experimentation and that they'd be better off as just friends, hence the anti-gay, anti-phan overtones of 2012 and after. I suspect too that part of the heavy denials were aimed towards his family, and while Dan's parents aren't too computer savvy, Dan's brother would have found evidence of shipping and rumors (and maybe even voldy) all too easily—even if Dan was accepting of his sexuality, he certainly wasn't ready to make it known to his growing audience (and family), and with shipping coming to a feverish pitch around this time, he probably felt cornered and lashed out.

Here is what I think is fundamentally at the core of their relationship: Dan is loyal and co-dependent and Phil has a deep (and potentially unrequited) romantic love for him. Dan owes Phil everything for taking an interest in him and giving him the motivation and encouragement to start making videos, so he has this deep unbreakable sense of appreciation and loyalty for Phil. Meanwhile Phil is hopelessly and romantically in love with Dan, and has sacrificed his own feelings when/if Dan put limits on the terms of their relationship.

What's clear is that they are inseparable. I think they have eased into a mutually beneficial status where they both get the fulfillment and support they need from each other—certainly there is a level of intimacy there, but whether it has returned to anything of a sexual nature is impossible to tell.

I think 2017 will be revealing in many different ways. I think this past year was their way of validating their existence in a purely creative sense without the "gimmick" of labels—you get the impression from Dan especially that he doesn't want to be known as the bi/gay youtuber, or as a YouTube couple, he wants to stand purely on the creativity. I think they've proved everything they've needed to prove and now 2017 will have a glass closet type of transparency. No more denials or affirmations, just living their lives and people can interprets it any way they wish. Phil is turning 30, they've made a ludicrous amount of money in 2016, and I'm sure they'll move, likely to Brighton to be closer with their friends and have more space while they transition to the next phase of their lives, which will of course include a corgi (fight me team shib). I wouldn't be surprised too if they started setting up more non-dan/phil branded types of ventures to set up income streams for the future. By all accounts 2017 should be a quieter year, but may in fact prove more revealing than any other.

What a great analysis! I agree with almost everything in this post - very well put, and it seems like a realistic conclusion to come to concerning their relationship.

However! There are two things which I disagree with (or would like clarification on)
1. What made you come to the conclusion that Phil is hopelessly in love with Dan? Honestly, his emotions are completely unreadable to me and I'd love to see your reasoning behind this.
2. #teamshibe all the way m8. I'll fite u

I agree with much of Phantasy's post, though not the breaking up part. Especially, I've always thought that Phil has been deeply in love and committed from the beginning.

Exhibit 1: voldy

Exhibit 2: pinof. In their original video, you can see Phil all over Dan, while Dan is reserved and even pushes Phil back (well, that's what I see!).

Exhibit 3: Watch all Phil's 2009 videos in order. It's not too hard to see a narrative of someone trying to figure out his life including looking for love. And then Dan is there all the time, seemingly the answer. (2009 Phil is my favorite Phil. I'm happy to see 2016 Phil, who seems more like the same person than a lot of the intervening years.)

Another thing to think about is how traumatizing the voldy leak likely was. Not hard to imagine someone never wanting to show affection after having the world gawk at your pouring out your heart.

I agree, these examples illustrate the point. Going on another limb to say, I think Dan's personality is the type that is more grating as time goes on (opinionated, prone to constant self-reflection, dark, almost morbid humor, socially detached, etc.), and to me there must be something more than being friends and business partners that keep them together for so long—it's hard for me to envision Dan living alone or with anyone else who's not in love with him, he needs an audience of one to help fulfill his self-actualization, I think he needs constant reminders that the sun will come out tomorrow and that he is valid as a person—again along the lines of co-dependency, which can all be draining for a friend to fulfill that role. But, since love blinds, I think that along with the other evidence is what keeps Phil tethered. YouTube duos and best friends move in together all the time, but after a while in order to grow as individuals, you need move out—what's clear with deppy after 5+ years is that there's more than just mutual convenience that keeps them together.

I have tried to wrap my head around a the idea of possible unrequited love and I haven't been able to do so. I agree, Dan is loyal and co-dependent but I have to add that I think they BOTH are.

When it comes to 2012: I can see/understand Dan having a crisis of who and/or what he is becoming. He was what, 21-22 at the time? That age can be nothing but uproar. I can't really credit his girfriend when he was younger because he was younger, I can't simply wave that away as oh, he's (mostly) straight and wouldn't have pushed for a relationship with Phil (if that is indeed the case.) So if Dan had some sort of crisis of identity yeah, I am sure the majority of us have been there. You lash out and you protect what you think you are.
Phil seemed vulnerable at the time, to be honest, as he was out of uni, his friends were pairing off and suddenly he had this heavily dimpled twink chasing after him (no offense to fetus!Dan, but he really was a twink) who literally bagged and tagged him like prey. lol

REGARDLESS: I don't think they need to stand up and make a public declaration of their relationship. Part of me thinks its a big joke to Dan, as if we haven't figured it out by now we are going to suffer for all eternity. lol. They are supportive of one another, and obviously they are happy where they are.

[sentinel]

What annoys me tho is that there is incredible room for exploitation there. Let's be honest, some of the youtubers are still in it not because they love it, they are in it for the cash. Dan and Phil get views, that's it, plain and simple. There is literally no other audience as engaged as the phandom. So including gets them views = cash and I think this is the main reason why they rarely do collabs, they don't want to be exploited for us, and why when they collab they do it with people who they admire and are actually friends with. Add to that the onision drama and it seems even more plausible. Not saying that Tom is doing this, but he is providing interesting insight into the background workings of yt.

tangent, speculation but relevant: last christmas some of Dan's family members asked for money instead of gifts and he made these very petty (in a good, joanne the scammer way ) envelopes that said "bank of Dan". I wonder if this ties in somehow into the whole fear of being used for his/their money/influence.

[pearshaped34]

Obviously they as a company are gonna push hardcore for what makes them the most cash. But the constant mentions by employees in interviews and discussions, including by employees... I doubt execs just told them "yeah and keep making random jokes about who tops during unrelated shows" although they well COULD now that i think about it.

If Dan and Phil were together and closeted, and some of their years with BBC were pretty damn closeted years, I can't help but feel it's kind of crude to be open about that in such a way. On the other hand, it almost always felt to me like an injoke at the expense of the phandom's belief they are together, but then, I am disbeliever in phan in general so.

Or maybe it is all about dat cash after all. Sorry I am rambling

I personally can only recall maybe about a handful of suggestive D&P jokes made on radio 1 and they were mostly on the Scott Mills show during the real-or-no-real game (where they often joke about the other DJs). And the D&P mentions on real or no real seemed to completely die off when D&P stopped coming in to do the game with them every Monday.
If I'm right in thinking there was only around half-a-dozen jokes over the space of about a year on a game that's played five days a week they were hardly constantly joking about their relationship (whatever that may be).
Maybe other DJs did it all the time too and I just can't recall/didn't hear about those.

As for D&P related jokes often being suggestive/questioning the nature of their relationship I just think that's because their relationship is deemed relevant because they know them being shipped is a big thing. When Nick Grimshaw being shipped with Harry Styles was a relevant thing they made jokes about that during real or no real as well. I don't think it is probably more deep than that.

Also I don't think merely mentioning them on an already popular and successful radio show is going to significantly bump up revenue because how?
Not even the most dedicated phannies would tune in five days a week to a several hours long show for just the occasional D&P mention and even those who will go check out Scott's show on the BBC website because they heard D&P were mentioned that day will do what they do with Tomska's videos and just skip to the D&P bit. Plus the BBC doesn't even do ads so no spon money from extra views an online content.
I don't think mere mentions of them are serious enough money makers that it would even be on the execs at the BBCs radar.

[violet-writer]

I don't blame anyone for wanting to discuss will they/won't they. Every new user needs to go through the debate at least once. But forgive me for not taking part. I wish you soldiers well.

What I came to discuss. Phil- Phil, oMgosh Phil. Phil?! PHIL. YES.

The black sweep of hair, against the pale smooth expanse of his forehead. The arched brows, effortless grace, the Eyes. Eyes that look like you could not just go swimming in them, but jump in their depths and from it extract diamonds, jewels, pirates loot. Eyes that are mesmerizing n mysterious. His eyes are caring, warm, lovely. the soft subtle stubble. Pink lips soft smirk...

i AM SO SORRY, but i am total trash for phil lester

I dont celebrate christmas, but thank u Lawd

[coldnnights]

no surprised look, no goofy smile?
bedroom eyes? what universe is this?!

ikr the post-baking universe is about to give me a heart attack. In fact, it already has lmao. But for real though, i really love this new Phil selfie, it's probably one of my favorites.

[hunnyftw]

What I came to discuss. Phil- Phil, oMgosh Phil. Phil?! PHIL. YES.

First things first, thank you for reminding me of Phil's photo. That's the most important thing right now

With that being said...

To sum up: for me a 'phan moment' can be some hilarious point in the conversation, one that feels genuine and when you can see the fondness between these two guys - it's nice to watch people who like each other have a good time in each other's company and have a laugh so sue me.

Agreed. And that's why I don't feel bad as a viewer for watching and replaying what I find to be cute moments of genuine connection and great chemistry in Deppy's videos. No suing here However, I do feel somewhat unsure and uncomfortable (bad is too strong of a word here) when I imagine D&P looking at their analytics and seeing the spikes corresponding to what can be loosely called "the Phan moments". Why? Ugh, not exactly sure. The best I can do right now is to thank melon lord for her post because I found it very interesting and it partly explained my feelings to me

I think because you can use analytics to see what parts interest your audience but it becomes strangely "corporate" when you notice that your touchy feely moments are the ones that get the most attention. I mean, we know it, they know it, but seeing it in actual "cold" statistics seems almost voyeuristic.

Followed by some other interesting points in the same post.

So basically bluewho, I feel you that it's nice and only natural to enjoy watching what we perceive as a genuine cute interaction, but also I still cannot shake off the feeling that it's not so nice to think about the analytics and trying to imagine it from their point of view. It's interesting so that's probably why I can't stop myself from doing it, but ultimately it doesn't bring me much joy at all.
Tldr; so basically I'd like to stay blissfully ignorant?

[Raspberrypi]

The black sweep of hair, against the pale smooth expanse of his forehead. The arched brows, effortless grace, the Eyes. Eyes that look like you could not just go swimming in them, but jump in their depths and from it extract diamonds, jewels, pirates loot. Eyes that are mesmerizing n mysterious. His eyes are caring, warm, lovely. the soft subtle stubble. Pink lips soft smirk...

i AM SO SORRY, but i am total trash for phil lester

No need to apologise, I think you just put into words what everyone else was feeling

[flarequake]

The black sweep of hair, against the pale smooth expanse of his forehead. The arched brows, effortless grace, the Eyes. Eyes that look like you could not just go swimming in them, but jump in their depths and from it extract diamonds, jewels, pirates loot. Eyes that are mesmerizing n mysterious. His eyes are caring, warm, lovely. the soft subtle stubble. Pink lips soft smirk...

i AM SO SORRY, but i am total trash for phil lester

No need to apologise, I think you just put into words what everyone else was feeling

Yes, great description

[fancy_nancy]

omg Phils selfie sometimes I forget how handsome he is when he doesn't make that face he always has in photos.

For what it's worth here's my take and thoughts on the nature of D&P's relationship...

I think first you need to rewind the clock to 2009 and establish their mental states and drives at the time. In 2009 Dan was wrapping up with his secondary education, had a small group of friends and girlfriend, but was otherwise still pining for someone or something he could really connect with—you get the sense that he kept to himself a lot and was going through that age of "ugh, nobody gets me" and was particularly indifferent towards his family. With his theatre experiences behind him now, his primary escapism outlet was YouTube—he references in TABINOF that at one point he had viewed nearly 40k videos, YouTube wasn't just his idle entertainment, it was his obsession. Dan idolized youtubers, and given how relatively small the platform was at the time, he started developing connections with these creators and would message and leave comments like any other fanboy, and some of them even responded back. Enter Phil.

Phil was wrapping up his university studies and had been making videos for a few years already by 2009, while not huge, he had a steadily growing audience, which included Dan. Phil was still presumably still in an emotionally low point after the death of his flat mate of 3 years and when Dan reached out to Phil and expressed their common interests, they started to naturally click. Phil had already started to explore his bisexuality by this point, and here was this cute younger guy showing interest in all the same things who was clearly looking to connect with someone on more than just a surface level, and so the flirtations began.

In the beginning I think there were clear romantic overtones to their relationship, which included intimacy and sex. At the core Dan was enamored with Phil (maybe even in a slightly opportunistic sense) and after they finally meet, distance was hardly a limiting factor and it served as a nice escape from Dan's home life which he longed to get far away from. Dan of course eventually moved to Manchester to attend university and after a year moved in with Phil (though they practically spent most of their time together anyway).

Here's where conjecture begins... At some point during this time, maybe even as a condition of moving in together, I think they decided, likely at Dan's insistence, that they put their romantic relationship aside in order for living together and working together to truly work. I think Dan was having trouble understanding his sexuality and chalked up their earlier romantic engagement to experimentation and that they'd be better off as just friends, hence the anti-gay, anti-phan overtones of 2012 and after. I suspect too that part of the heavy denials were aimed towards his family, and while Dan's parents aren't too computer savvy, Dan's brother would have found evidence of shipping and rumors (and maybe even voldy) all too easily—even if Dan was accepting of his sexuality, he certainly wasn't ready to make it known to his growing audience (and family), and with shipping coming to a feverish pitch around this time, he probably felt cornered and lashed out.

Here is what I think is fundamentally at the core of their relationship: Dan is loyal and co-dependent and Phil has a deep (and potentially unrequited) romantic love for him. Dan owes Phil everything for taking an interest in him and giving him the motivation and encouragement to start making videos, so he has this deep unbreakable sense of appreciation and loyalty for Phil. Meanwhile Phil is hopelessly and romantically in love with Dan, and has sacrificed his own feelings when/if Dan put limits on the terms of their relationship.

What's clear is that they are inseparable. I think they have eased into a mutually beneficial status where they both get the fulfillment and support they need from each other—certainly there is a level of intimacy there, but whether it has returned to anything of a sexual nature is impossible to tell.

I think 2017 will be revealing in many different ways. I think this past year was their way of validating their existence in a purely creative sense without the "gimmick" of labels—you get the impression from Dan especially that he doesn't want to be known as the bi/gay youtuber, or as a YouTube couple, he wants to stand purely on the creativity. I think they've proved everything they've needed to prove and now 2017 will have a glass closet type of transparency. No more denials or affirmations, just living their lives and people can interprets it any way they wish. Phil is turning 30, they've made a ludicrous amount of money in 2016, and I'm sure they'll move, likely to Brighton to be closer with their friends and have more space while they transition to the next phase of their lives, which will of course include a corgi (fight me team shib). I wouldn't be surprised too if they started setting up more non-dan/phil branded types of ventures to set up income streams for the future. By all accounts 2017 should be a quieter year, but may in fact prove more revealing than any other.

This was so good, thanks for sharing Phantasy the only thing I disagree with from all of this is about Phils love being unrequited, hahah it might be that i'm just phan trash but I don't think Dan has ever not loved Phil (be it romantically or otherwise)

[Phantasy]

omg Phils selfie sometimes I forget how handsome he is when he doesn't make that face he always has in photos.

For what it's worth here's my take and thoughts on the nature of D&P's relationship...

I think first you need to rewind the clock to 2009 and establish their mental states and drives at the time. In 2009 Dan was wrapping up with his secondary education, had a small group of friends and girlfriend, but was otherwise still pining for someone or something he could really connect with—you get the sense that he kept to himself a lot and was going through that age of "ugh, nobody gets me" and was particularly indifferent towards his family. With his theatre experiences behind him now, his primary escapism outlet was YouTube—he references in TABINOF that at one point he had viewed nearly 40k videos, YouTube wasn't just his idle entertainment, it was his obsession. Dan idolized youtubers, and given how relatively small the platform was at the time, he started developing connections with these creators and would message and leave comments like any other fanboy, and some of them even responded back. Enter Phil.

Phil was wrapping up his university studies and had been making videos for a few years already by 2009, while not huge, he had a steadily growing audience, which included Dan. Phil was still presumably still in an emotionally low point after the death of his flat mate of 3 years and when Dan reached out to Phil and expressed their common interests, they started to naturally click. Phil had already started to explore his bisexuality by this point, and here was this cute younger guy showing interest in all the same things who was clearly looking to connect with someone on more than just a surface level, and so the flirtations began.

In the beginning I think there were clear romantic overtones to their relationship, which included intimacy and sex. At the core Dan was enamored with Phil (maybe even in a slightly opportunistic sense) and after they finally meet, distance was hardly a limiting factor and it served as a nice escape from Dan's home life which he longed to get far away from. Dan of course eventually moved to Manchester to attend university and after a year moved in with Phil (though they practically spent most of their time together anyway).

Here's where conjecture begins... At some point during this time, maybe even as a condition of moving in together, I think they decided, likely at Dan's insistence, that they put their romantic relationship aside in order for living together and working together to truly work. I think Dan was having trouble understanding his sexuality and chalked up their earlier romantic engagement to experimentation and that they'd be better off as just friends, hence the anti-gay, anti-phan overtones of 2012 and after. I suspect too that part of the heavy denials were aimed towards his family, and while Dan's parents aren't too computer savvy, Dan's brother would have found evidence of shipping and rumors (and maybe even voldy) all too easily—even if Dan was accepting of his sexuality, he certainly wasn't ready to make it known to his growing audience (and family), and with shipping coming to a feverish pitch around this time, he probably felt cornered and lashed out.

Here is what I think is fundamentally at the core of their relationship: Dan is loyal and co-dependent and Phil has a deep (and potentially unrequited) romantic love for him. Dan owes Phil everything for taking an interest in him and giving him the motivation and encouragement to start making videos, so he has this deep unbreakable sense of appreciation and loyalty for Phil. Meanwhile Phil is hopelessly and romantically in love with Dan, and has sacrificed his own feelings when/if Dan put limits on the terms of their relationship.

What's clear is that they are inseparable. I think they have eased into a mutually beneficial status where they both get the fulfillment and support they need from each other—certainly there is a level of intimacy there, but whether it has returned to anything of a sexual nature is impossible to tell.

I think 2017 will be revealing in many different ways. I think this past year was their way of validating their existence in a purely creative sense without the "gimmick" of labels—you get the impression from Dan especially that he doesn't want to be known as the bi/gay youtuber, or as a YouTube couple, he wants to stand purely on the creativity. I think they've proved everything they've needed to prove and now 2017 will have a glass closet type of transparency. No more denials or affirmations, just living their lives and people can interprets it any way they wish. Phil is turning 30, they've made a ludicrous amount of money in 2016, and I'm sure they'll move, likely to Brighton to be closer with their friends and have more space while they transition to the next phase of their lives, which will of course include a corgi (fight me team shib). I wouldn't be surprised too if they started setting up more non-dan/phil branded types of ventures to set up income streams for the future. By all accounts 2017 should be a quieter year, but may in fact prove more revealing than any other.

This was so good, thanks for sharing Phantasy the only thing I disagree with from all of this is about Phils love being unrequited, hahah it might be that i'm just phan trash but I don't think Dan has ever not loved Phil (be it romantically or otherwise)

I think the point I was trying to make only applies if they are not in fact currently romantic in the traditional sense, then I can envision a dynamic where Dan has a deep platonic love, but Phil has to keep his romantic feelings in check. Not to sound cynical, but I saw Dan's early flirtations as somewhat opportunistic and self-serving—he wanted a way into the YouTube world and he used his twinkish charm on a willing participant. I think it grew from there into true love, but part of me has always felt that Dan could have done a bait and switch and once he was firmly established in Phil's life, he could take sex out of the equation and still get everything he needs out of their relationship, and Phil would go along and pretend that's what he wanted as well in order to stay with Dan.

[kuensukki]

omg Phils selfie sometimes I forget how handsome he is when he doesn't make that face he always has in photos.

For what it's worth here's my take and thoughts on the nature of D&P's relationship...

I think first you need to rewind the clock to 2009 and establish their mental states and drives at the time. In 2009 Dan was wrapping up with his secondary education, had a small group of friends and girlfriend, but was otherwise still pining for someone or something he could really connect with—you get the sense that he kept to himself a lot and was going through that age of "ugh, nobody gets me" and was particularly indifferent towards his family. With his theatre experiences behind him now, his primary escapism outlet was YouTube—he references in TABINOF that at one point he had viewed nearly 40k videos, YouTube wasn't just his idle entertainment, it was his obsession. Dan idolized youtubers, and given how relatively small the platform was at the time, he started developing connections with these creators and would message and leave comments like any other fanboy, and some of them even responded back. Enter Phil.

Phil was wrapping up his university studies and had been making videos for a few years already by 2009, while not huge, he had a steadily growing audience, which included Dan. Phil was still presumably still in an emotionally low point after the death of his flat mate of 3 years and when Dan reached out to Phil and expressed their common interests, they started to naturally click. Phil had already started to explore his bisexuality by this point, and here was this cute younger guy showing interest in all the same things who was clearly looking to connect with someone on more than just a surface level, and so the flirtations began.

In the beginning I think there were clear romantic overtones to their relationship, which included intimacy and sex. At the core Dan was enamored with Phil (maybe even in a slightly opportunistic sense) and after they finally meet, distance was hardly a limiting factor and it served as a nice escape from Dan's home life which he longed to get far away from. Dan of course eventually moved to Manchester to attend university and after a year moved in with Phil (though they practically spent most of their time together anyway).

Here's where conjecture begins... At some point during this time, maybe even as a condition of moving in together, I think they decided, likely at Dan's insistence, that they put their romantic relationship aside in order for living together and working together to truly work. I think Dan was having trouble understanding his sexuality and chalked up their earlier romantic engagement to experimentation and that they'd be better off as just friends, hence the anti-gay, anti-phan overtones of 2012 and after. I suspect too that part of the heavy denials were aimed towards his family, and while Dan's parents aren't too computer savvy, Dan's brother would have found evidence of shipping and rumors (and maybe even voldy) all too easily—even if Dan was accepting of his sexuality, he certainly wasn't ready to make it known to his growing audience (and family), and with shipping coming to a feverish pitch around this time, he probably felt cornered and lashed out.

Here is what I think is fundamentally at the core of their relationship: Dan is loyal and co-dependent and Phil has a deep (and potentially unrequited) romantic love for him. Dan owes Phil everything for taking an interest in him and giving him the motivation and encouragement to start making videos, so he has this deep unbreakable sense of appreciation and loyalty for Phil. Meanwhile Phil is hopelessly and romantically in love with Dan, and has sacrificed his own feelings when/if Dan put limits on the terms of their relationship.

What's clear is that they are inseparable. I think they have eased into a mutually beneficial status where they both get the fulfillment and support they need from each other—certainly there is a level of intimacy there, but whether it has returned to anything of a sexual nature is impossible to tell.

I think 2017 will be revealing in many different ways. I think this past year was their way of validating their existence in a purely creative sense without the "gimmick" of labels—you get the impression from Dan especially that he doesn't want to be known as the bi/gay youtuber, or as a YouTube couple, he wants to stand purely on the creativity. I think they've proved everything they've needed to prove and now 2017 will have a glass closet type of transparency. No more denials or affirmations, just living their lives and people can interprets it any way they wish. Phil is turning 30, they've made a ludicrous amount of money in 2016, and I'm sure they'll move, likely to Brighton to be closer with their friends and have more space while they transition to the next phase of their lives, which will of course include a corgi (fight me team shib). I wouldn't be surprised too if they started setting up more non-dan/phil branded types of ventures to set up income streams for the future. By all accounts 2017 should be a quieter year, but may in fact prove more revealing than any other.

This was so good, thanks for sharing Phantasy the only thing I disagree with from all of this is about Phils love being unrequited, hahah it might be that i'm just phan trash but I don't think Dan has ever not loved Phil (be it romantically or otherwise)

I think the point I was trying to make only applies if they are not in fact currently romantic in the traditional sense, then I can envision a dynamic where Dan has a deep platonic love, but Phil has to keep his romantic feelings in check. Not to sound cynical, but I saw Dan's early flirtations as somewhat opportunistic and self-serving—he wanted a way into the YouTube world and he used his twinkish charm on a willing participant. I think it grew from there into true love, but part of me has always felt that Dan could have done a bait and switch and once he was firmly established in Phil's life, he could take sex out of the equation and still get everything he needs out of their relationship, and Phil would go along and pretend that's what he wanted as well in order to stay with Dan.

Let me first take a moment to appreciate the beauty that is Phil Lester when he's actually being Phil Lester and has his eyes in the right light and is feeling himself to post a selfie and cause me to momentarily die.... *recovers myself* yea it was beautiful

I'm sorry but your post read like a fanfiction to me, not something I'd believe to be true in real life. I first want to understand why you believe Phil would have romantic unrequited feelings for Dan.... I need to see a situation that even comes close to this statement because nothing I ever see ever states that. If we are basing it alone on what I see, Dan is the one to go out of his way to express his affections for Phil, while Phil is more subtle in his expression. That being said, I don't think, given the information we know and the fact that videos are edited and all that, we can never make a conclusion on whether either person feels a certain way. It's just an assumption based on our projection of personal feelings towards the relationships and as well as personal experiences we've had that have been similar. If you think about a video, it's and edited portion of dan and phil's lives, that's why, like alittledizzy said, it's not the "looks" or the touching that sways me, its the overall relationship they've had and continue to have. I just look at the big picture and combine things they haven't shared with me and things they themselves have shared and make a conclusion. That doesn't mean I'm right or anyone is wrong, it just means that I believe something and someone else sees it completely differently.

What bothered me about the post you had written was there was a lot of assumptions. At the end of the day, its almost impossible to tell someone's feelings just by watching them. People aren't transparent, they don't have their feelings written inside them that you can read. They are complex beings that are hard to fully understand. What I can see that they do enjoy each other's company and they (as of now) have been living together and doing everything together (this based on the countless fan pics we've seen). There's also a nice blanket of heteronormativity that blankets two boys being friends (or two girls) even given their history so there's that. I just don't think its fair to assume that Dan had motives when contacting Phil and that Phil now has unrequited feelings for Dan because there's nothing I see that supports that. There's assumptions based on evidence, then there's straight up conclusions based on nothing at all.

[jesuisunèléve]

omg Phils selfie sometimes I forget how handsome he is when he doesn't make that face he always has in photos.

For what it's worth here's my take and thoughts on the nature of D&P's relationship...

I think first you need to rewind the clock to 2009 and establish their mental states and drives at the time. In 2009 Dan was wrapping up with his secondary education, had a small group of friends and girlfriend, but was otherwise still pining for someone or something he could really connect with—you get the sense that he kept to himself a lot and was going through that age of "ugh, nobody gets me" and was particularly indifferent towards his family. With his theatre experiences behind him now, his primary escapism outlet was YouTube—he references in TABINOF that at one point he had viewed nearly 40k videos, YouTube wasn't just his idle entertainment, it was his obsession. Dan idolized youtubers, and given how relatively small the platform was at the time, he started developing connections with these creators and would message and leave comments like any other fanboy, and some of them even responded back. Enter Phil.

Phil was wrapping up his university studies and had been making videos for a few years already by 2009, while not huge, he had a steadily growing audience, which included Dan. Phil was still presumably still in an emotionally low point after the death of his flat mate of 3 years and when Dan reached out to Phil and expressed their common interests, they started to naturally click. Phil had already started to explore his bisexuality by this point, and here was this cute younger guy showing interest in all the same things who was clearly looking to connect with someone on more than just a surface level, and so the flirtations began.

In the beginning I think there were clear romantic overtones to their relationship, which included intimacy and sex. At the core Dan was enamored with Phil (maybe even in a slightly opportunistic sense) and after they finally meet, distance was hardly a limiting factor and it served as a nice escape from Dan's home life which he longed to get far away from. Dan of course eventually moved to Manchester to attend university and after a year moved in with Phil (though they practically spent most of their time together anyway).

Here's where conjecture begins... At some point during this time, maybe even as a condition of moving in together, I think they decided, likely at Dan's insistence, that they put their romantic relationship aside in order for living together and working together to truly work. I think Dan was having trouble understanding his sexuality and chalked up their earlier romantic engagement to experimentation and that they'd be better off as just friends, hence the anti-gay, anti-phan overtones of 2012 and after. I suspect too that part of the heavy denials were aimed towards his family, and while Dan's parents aren't too computer savvy, Dan's brother would have found evidence of shipping and rumors (and maybe even voldy) all too easily—even if Dan was accepting of his sexuality, he certainly wasn't ready to make it known to his growing audience (and family), and with shipping coming to a feverish pitch around this time, he probably felt cornered and lashed out.

Here is what I think is fundamentally at the core of their relationship: Dan is loyal and co-dependent and Phil has a deep (and potentially unrequited) romantic love for him. Dan owes Phil everything for taking an interest in him and giving him the motivation and encouragement to start making videos, so he has this deep unbreakable sense of appreciation and loyalty for Phil. Meanwhile Phil is hopelessly and romantically in love with Dan, and has sacrificed his own feelings when/if Dan put limits on the terms of their relationship.

What's clear is that they are inseparable. I think they have eased into a mutually beneficial status where they both get the fulfillment and support they need from each other—certainly there is a level of intimacy there, but whether it has returned to anything of a sexual nature is impossible to tell.

I think 2017 will be revealing in many different ways. I think this past year was their way of validating their existence in a purely creative sense without the "gimmick" of labels—you get the impression from Dan especially that he doesn't want to be known as the bi/gay youtuber, or as a YouTube couple, he wants to stand purely on the creativity. I think they've proved everything they've needed to prove and now 2017 will have a glass closet type of transparency. No more denials or affirmations, just living their lives and people can interprets it any way they wish. Phil is turning 30, they've made a ludicrous amount of money in 2016, and I'm sure they'll move, likely to Brighton to be closer with their friends and have more space while they transition to the next phase of their lives, which will of course include a corgi (fight me team shib). I wouldn't be surprised too if they started setting up more non-dan/phil branded types of ventures to set up income streams for the future. By all accounts 2017 should be a quieter year, but may in fact prove more revealing than any other.

This was so good, thanks for sharing Phantasy the only thing I disagree with from all of this is about Phils love being unrequited, hahah it might be that i'm just phan trash but I don't think Dan has ever not loved Phil (be it romantically or otherwise)

I think the point I was trying to make only applies if they are not in fact currently romantic in the traditional sense, then I can envision a dynamic where Dan has a deep platonic love, but Phil has to keep his romantic feelings in check. Not to sound cynical, but I saw Dan's early flirtations as somewhat opportunistic and self-serving—he wanted a way into the YouTube world and he used his twinkish charm on a willing participant. I think it grew from there into true love, but part of me has always felt that Dan could have done a bait and switch and once he was firmly established in Phil's life, he could take sex out of the equation and still get everything he needs out of their relationship, and Phil would go along and pretend that's what he wanted as well in order to stay with Dan.

Let me first take a moment to appreciate the beauty that is Phil Lester when he's actually being Phil Lester and has his eyes in the right light and is feeling himself to post a selfie and cause me to momentarily die.... *recovers myself* yea it was beautiful

I'm sorry but your post read like a fanfiction to me, not something I'd believe to be true in real life. I first want to understand why you believe Phil would have romantic unrequited feelings for Dan.... I need to see a situation that even comes close to this statement because nothing I ever see ever states that. If we are basing it alone on what I see, Dan is the one to go out of his way to express his affections for Phil, while Phil is more subtle in his expression. That being said, I don't think, given the information we know and the fact that videos are edited and all that, we can never make a conclusion on whether either person feels a certain way. It's just an assumption based on our projection of personal feelings towards the relationships and as well as personal experiences we've had that have been similar. If you think about a video, it's and edited portion of dan and phil's lives, that's why, like alittledizzy said, it's not the "looks" or the touching that sways me, its the overall relationship they've had and continue to have. I just look at the big picture and combine things they haven't shared with me and things they themselves have shared and make a conclusion. That doesn't mean I'm right or anyone is wrong, it just means that I believe something and someone else sees it completely differently.

What bothered me about the post you had written was there was a lot of assumptions. At the end of the day, its almost impossible to tell someone's feelings just by watching them. People aren't transparent, they don't have their feelings written inside them that you can read. They are complex beings that are hard to fully understand. What I can see that they do enjoy each other's company and they (as of now) have been living together and doing everything together (this based on the countless fan pics we've seen). There's also a nice blanket of heteronormativity that blankets two boys being friends (or two girls) even given their history so there's that. I just don't think its fair to assume that Dan had motives when contacting Phil and that Phil now has unrequited feelings for Dan because there's nothing I see that supports that. There's assumptions based on evidence, then there's straight up conclusions based on nothing at all.

This is not the first time I have heard:
"then I can envision a dynamic where Dan has a deep platonic love, but Phil has to keep his romantic feelings in check."
As well as:
"but I saw Dan's early flirtations as somewhat opportunistic and self-serving—he wanted a way into the YouTube world and he used his twinkish charm on a willing participant."
...so I am not really shocked by it, but I continue to ask the same question I have asked since the first time I heard of this theory: if this is, in fact, the case, 7+ years is a long time to keep up those kind of appearances.

I have heard many things: from Dan having a crisis in 2012 about who/what he wanted to be when he grew up to Phil (and Dan maybe?) being bullied while being on BBC1 and threats being made for being "queer" and "not really being dj's". Who knows, it's all part of the speculation rainbow.

Regardless if they are together or not, or keeping wives/girlfriends/baby-mama's on the side, there are some conclusions that can be drawn (in my opinion):
1. Whatever is going on between the two of them is going on between the two of them. They have no need to answer to any speculation and I don't think they are queer-baiting us. If they wanted page views or subs they could have posted a video of them hugging or eating banana off of one another's faces instead of posting a video every single day for 24 days.
2. We, as the general public, have an inherent need to know the truth. There are some YTer's who put their entire lives out there on the internet and I am not sure if that is the healthiest thing to do and where does it lead? We all know Deps can't lie for shit so would we believe them anyway if they tell us the sky is blue? In a nutshell, them coming out would not stop the speculation.
3. That selfie of Phil broke the damn internet. To hell with Dan and Derick the Dimple, Philly Lester is where it's at.

[CallMeAyana]

...My heart literally stopped for 10 seconds because I just ran out of air. Ohmygods. WTF. Dan is so selfish. We need Phil.

omg Phils selfie sometimes I forget how handsome he is when he doesn't make that face he always has in photos.

For what it's worth here's my take and thoughts on the nature of D&P's relationship...

I think first you need to rewind the clock to 2009 and establish their mental states and drives at the time. In 2009 Dan was wrapping up with his secondary education, had a small group of friends and girlfriend, but was otherwise still pining for someone or something he could really connect with—you get the sense that he kept to himself a lot and was going through that age of "ugh, nobody gets me" and was particularly indifferent towards his family. With his theatre experiences behind him now, his primary escapism outlet was YouTube—he references in TABINOF that at one point he had viewed nearly 40k videos, YouTube wasn't just his idle entertainment, it was his obsession. Dan idolized youtubers, and given how relatively small the platform was at the time, he started developing connections with these creators and would message and leave comments like any other fanboy, and some of them even responded back. Enter Phil.

Phil was wrapping up his university studies and had been making videos for a few years already by 2009, while not huge, he had a steadily growing audience, which included Dan. Phil was still presumably still in an emotionally low point after the death of his flat mate of 3 years and when Dan reached out to Phil and expressed their common interests, they started to naturally click. Phil had already started to explore his bisexuality by this point, and here was this cute younger guy showing interest in all the same things who was clearly looking to connect with someone on more than just a surface level, and so the flirtations began.

In the beginning I think there were clear romantic overtones to their relationship, which included intimacy and sex. At the core Dan was enamored with Phil (maybe even in a slightly opportunistic sense) and after they finally meet, distance was hardly a limiting factor and it served as a nice escape from Dan's home life which he longed to get far away from. Dan of course eventually moved to Manchester to attend university and after a year moved in with Phil (though they practically spent most of their time together anyway).

Here's where conjecture begins... At some point during this time, maybe even as a condition of moving in together, I think they decided, likely at Dan's insistence, that they put their romantic relationship aside in order for living together and working together to truly work. I think Dan was having trouble understanding his sexuality and chalked up their earlier romantic engagement to experimentation and that they'd be better off as just friends, hence the anti-gay, anti-phan overtones of 2012 and after. I suspect too that part of the heavy denials were aimed towards his family, and while Dan's parents aren't too computer savvy, Dan's brother would have found evidence of shipping and rumors (and maybe even voldy) all too easily—even if Dan was accepting of his sexuality, he certainly wasn't ready to make it known to his growing audience (and family), and with shipping coming to a feverish pitch around this time, he probably felt cornered and lashed out.

Here is what I think is fundamentally at the core of their relationship: Dan is loyal and co-dependent and Phil has a deep (and potentially unrequited) romantic love for him. Dan owes Phil everything for taking an interest in him and giving him the motivation and encouragement to start making videos, so he has this deep unbreakable sense of appreciation and loyalty for Phil. Meanwhile Phil is hopelessly and romantically in love with Dan, and has sacrificed his own feelings when/if Dan put limits on the terms of their relationship.

What's clear is that they are inseparable. I think they have eased into a mutually beneficial status where they both get the fulfillment and support they need from each other—certainly there is a level of intimacy there, but whether it has returned to anything of a sexual nature is impossible to tell.

I think 2017 will be revealing in many different ways. I think this past year was their way of validating their existence in a purely creative sense without the "gimmick" of labels—you get the impression from Dan especially that he doesn't want to be known as the bi/gay youtuber, or as a YouTube couple, he wants to stand purely on the creativity. I think they've proved everything they've needed to prove and now 2017 will have a glass closet type of transparency. No more denials or affirmations, just living their lives and people can interprets it any way they wish. Phil is turning 30, they've made a ludicrous amount of money in 2016, and I'm sure they'll move, likely to Brighton to be closer with their friends and have more space while they transition to the next phase of their lives, which will of course include a corgi (fight me team shib). I wouldn't be surprised too if they started setting up more non-dan/phil branded types of ventures to set up income streams for the future. By all accounts 2017 should be a quieter year, but may in fact prove more revealing than any other.

This was so good, thanks for sharing Phantasy the only thing I disagree with from all of this is about Phils love being unrequited, hahah it might be that i'm just phan trash but I don't think Dan has ever not loved Phil (be it romantically or otherwise)

I think the point I was trying to make only applies if they are not in fact currently romantic in the traditional sense, then I can envision a dynamic where Dan has a deep platonic love, but Phil has to keep his romantic feelings in check. Not to sound cynical, but I saw Dan's early flirtations as somewhat opportunistic and self-serving—he wanted a way into the YouTube world and he used his twinkish charm on a willing participant. I think it grew from there into true love, but part of me has always felt that Dan could have done a bait and switch and once he was firmly established in Phil's life, he could take sex out of the equation and still get everything he needs out of their relationship, and Phil would go along and pretend that's what he wanted as well in order to stay with Dan.

Somehow, that bolded part rubs me the wrong way. I honestly think that since he and Phil already have some things in common, he reaches out a little bit more because aside from being Phil Trash #1, he believes that Phil is the kind of person he needs in his life. Dan does have friends irl, and some probably have similar interests as Dan, but not as invested. So, when he found Phil, he immediately saw a middle ground, and a quick escape from his problems. As far as timeline goes, Phil recently lost his bestfriend, and even if he do have friends, it just doesn't felt the same. So, when he found this kid called Dan, he gives it a shot because aside from having similar interests, Dan also seems to be interested in Youtube. They became each other's emotional pillars, and slowly built more stability around it. They also balance each other out- Dan seems to be pretty pessimistic, and even though I don't believe that Phil is much of an optimist, he keeps Dan grounded. (Wait, where am I going with this? Oh, yeah...) They saved each other, and even if Phil doesn't verbally confirm this, he appreciates Dan all the same.

Another thing: I think that if voldy really is a prank and they release it, I honestly think that it's not that cruel because they could have explained what it is and why they did it. Also, their comments on voldy seems to be really personal, and since Deppy are sentimental people (you know, keeping all of their fans' works and all those stuff), they decided to keep it in Phil's channel. Dan's 2012 denial can be because of three things: (1) his family doesn't know what is currently going on with his and Phil's life, and he's fine keeping it like that, (2) and that he doesn't appreciate people prying deeper into his and Phil's life because they already set a limit on how much the internet can see. Also, (3) I do not believe that Dan and Phil broke up last 2012 (in the context that they are together), but it could be that Phil has thoughts of wanting to remove his Youtube channel and officially quit, but Dan says otherwise, and that he's angry at the Phandom because people just doesn't want to stop- that's why he's so aggressive because he thought that people will stop if he's aggressive, but it back-fired.

Of course, every one of this is speculation

[000dia000]

I find this interesting as deppy also look at their attention spikes and all the little spikes on certain touchy-feely or eye contact moments they have, they're statistically more aware of everything than those who just read the comments

It makes sense that they do this, and now I feel incredibly exposed but how do we know they look at the spikes? Have I missed something?

To bring this back. I am making the assumption that they look at these attention spikes as other YouTubers like Tomska do, they are probably encouraged to do so.

Also, while they have not made any reference to looking at them at the current time, in a past video for:

@1.05-1.07 there is a massive attention spike due to his pants falling down, Phil at the time noticed this and called his audiences perverts likely he thought the same thing in maybe his recent "sleepless night" where people jumped to the time stamps of his bare arms, because we're predictable trash

Re: Behind the scene of YouTubers
Tomska has done vlogs on this. He's very open about certain elements of his work, he frequently asks for audience feedback and he has probably the loosest divide between "creator" and "audience" for a channel of his number of subscribers. He did a short series on this, if anybody is interested in watching something from a YouTuber's viewpoint, especially one as honest as Tom:

Re: Phil's Selfie
I'm jealous of his eyebrows I've never seen such naturally, arched and perfect eyebrows, particularly on a man before. If I didn't know Phil from anything, seeing this selfie would make me stan just his eyebrows in particular

[Stakhanov]

I find this interesting as deppy also look at their attention spikes and all the little spikes on certain touchy-feely or eye contact moments they have, they're statistically more aware of everything than those who just read the comments

It makes sense that they do this, and now I feel incredibly exposed but how do we know they look at the spikes? Have I missed something?

Hi, we can't really know if they do but there are things Dan has said in his liveshow that certainly seems to suggest that he used to (and likely still does) watch the statiscal data about his video's closely.

He mentions his demographics and the analytics page starting at 18:05.
I thought it was also pretty funny how he talks about a comedic edit he made of a collab vid of ,to make it sound all sexual. Daniel the troll captured live on camera

I've heard plenty of big youtubers mention the analytics. I think we can pretty safely assume that most big youtubers monitor them closely, regardless of what other channels they use to find information about their audience. It's one of the few ways you have to objectively try understand your audience better and fine tune your content to them. Even if a person like Tomska wouldn't care much for it themselves, there's a whole crew who he is producing video's with who build their livelyhoods with youtube so every atention spike and other minor detail becomes important. That's at least how things tend to go in a business: you try to take in all the possible information you can.


[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_vMRkxz ... 7&index=73[/YouTube]

[realeyesrealize]

I find this interesting as deppy also look at their attention spikes and all the little spikes on certain touchy-feely or eye contact moments they have, they're statistically more aware of everything than those who just read the comments

It makes sense that they do this, and now I feel incredibly exposed but how do we know they look at the spikes? Have I missed something?

I reckon they both have a pretty clear understanding of how both their audience (loyal and casual viewers) and the phandom work and, which is what's most important to me, they respect it. This is something that can be said about very few youtubers in my opinion. To gain this knowledge about the inner workings of the community of people that watch their videos, they must be aware of their demographics & statistics (as well as interact with their viewers, but that's not the point rn).

As I said, in my eyes, they have huge amounts of respect for their audience, which is why I don't believe they use these statistics to their advantage to the point of faking "phan" moments to create the spikes, but just to understand their community better.

[melon lord]

I reckon they both have a pretty clear understanding of how both their audience (loyal and casual viewers) and the phandom work and, which is what's most important to me, they respect it. This is something that can be said about very few youtubers in my opinion. To gain this knowledge about the inner workings of the community of people that watch their videos, they must be aware of their demographics & statistics (as well as interact with their viewers, but that's not the point rn).

As I said, in my eyes, they have huge amounts of respect for their audience, which is why I don't believe they use these statistics to their advantage to the point of faking "phan" moments to create the spikes, but just to understand their community better.

Nowadays they don't need to "manufacture" phan moments to benefit themselves, but back in 2009-10 I think there was a lot more attention seeking. If nakedbooths were anything to go by and we saw how Phil wasn't exactly innocent, either. I don't find it morally deplorable, more like a byproduct of its time and very embarrassing. A lot of young people from then were going through that phase, it wasn't exclusively deppy. It's precisely their antics back then that helped shaped what we appreciate now. If Dan hadn't stalked befriended Phil and if PINOF 1 hadn't happened, who knows where we'd all be now?

[Catallena]

Phil honey not that I don't think that picture isn't adorable (it is), but you chose the wrong recent selfie for your new profile pic. Just saying.

what the fuck an I complaining about, anything without the deer in headlights look is godsend. may it finally die in 2017.

[melon lord]

Phil honey not that I don't think that picture isn't adorable (it is), but you chose the wrong recent selfie for your new profile pic. Just saying.

what the fuck an I complaining about, anything without the deer in headlights look is godsend. may it finally die in 2017.

Phil is just too damn adorable it physically hurts me There was one moment in the gamingmas vids where he was moving his hands and usually I'm a dangirl to the bone but he had such delicate small hands I was having a moment to myself

I had never seen Phil's Reacting to my Old Videos, and his face when he saw the vid where he was dressed in his mum's clothes and his hair was in bunches and he drew whiskers, his FACE I was squealing from laughter, he was so embarrassed, come on Phil we want more of that also more of Phil blushing and looking horrified, that's more Dan's territory, mr Poker Face Phil doesn't often show negative emotions

[papierklemmen]

I reckon they both have a pretty clear understanding of how both their audience (loyal and casual viewers) and the phandom work and, which is what's most important to me, they respect it. This is something that can be said about very few youtubers in my opinion. To gain this knowledge about the inner workings of the community of people that watch their videos, they must be aware of their demographics & statistics (as well as interact with their viewers, but that's not the point rn).

As I said, in my eyes, they have huge amounts of respect for their audience, which is why I don't believe they use these statistics to their advantage to the point of faking "phan" moments to create the spikes, but just to understand their community better.

Nowadays they don't need to "manufacture" phan moments to benefit themselves, but back in 2009-10 I think there was a lot more attention seeking. If nakedbooths were anything to go by and we saw how Phil wasn't exactly innocent, either. I don't find it morally deplorable, more like a byproduct of its time and very embarrassing. A lot of young people from then were going through that phase, it wasn't exclusively deppy. It's precisely their antics back then that helped shaped what we appreciate now. If Dan hadn't stalked befriended Phil and if PINOF 1 hadn't happened, who knows where we'd all be now?

yeah, they weren't exactly innocent as a duo either, cue "hot sexy phantastic action", thumbnails to truth or dare 2 and would you rather, the interactive christmas "sex tape" present they even advertised on twitter... i'm glad they don't do this shit anymore, although they went from 100 to 0 real quick back then, thank god they found some balance.

[alittledizzy]

yeah, they weren't exactly innocent as a duo either, cue "hot sexy phantastic action", thumbnails to truth or dare 2 and would you rather, the interactive christmas "sex tape" present they even advertised on twitter... i'm glad they don't do this shit anymore, although they went from 100 to 0 real quick back then, thank god they found some balance.

pinof 4 was in 2012, not 2010 - that's the one the hot sexy phantastic action title was for.

The sex tape was 2009, but... have you actually seen it? Because it's not like... actually enticing. They spin a chair upside down and Phil pats his face with a sock. I mean, if you have an upside down chair fetish, I guess it's baity as fuck. But otherwise... I don't think either of those are actually examples of 2009/2010 Dan and Phil baiting an audience.

[papierklemmen]

yeah, they weren't exactly innocent as a duo either, cue "hot sexy phantastic action", thumbnails to truth or dare 2 and would you rather, the interactive christmas "sex tape" present they even advertised on twitter... i'm glad they don't do this shit anymore, although they went from 100 to 0 real quick back then, thank god they found some balance.

pinof 4 was in 2012, not 2010 - that's the one the hot sexy phantastic action title was for.

The sex tape was 2009, but... have you actually seen it? Because it's not like... actually enticing. They spin a chair upside down and Phil pats his face with a sock. I mean, if you have an upside down chair fetish, I guess it's baity as fuck. But otherwise... I don't think either of those are actually examples of 2009/2010 Dan and Phil baiting an audience.

i've seen it, and i personally consider the "sex tape" a perfect example of baiting (when something is promised, but not delivered). it's different from posting nude pics (actual fanservice), but it's still baiting. in fact, if they uploaded an actual sex tape i wouldn't call it baiting (but that would be a whole other story ). i also wouldn't consider it baiting if it was a surpise joke no one knew about, but they advertised it on twitter so that's a bait.

[melon lord]

pinof 4 was in 2012, not 2010 - that's the one the hot sexy phantastic action title was for.

The sex tape was 2009, but... have you actually seen it? Because it's not like... actually enticing. They spin a chair upside down and Phil pats his face with a sock. I mean, if you have an upside down chair fetish, I guess it's baity as fuck. But otherwise... I don't think either of those are actually examples of 2009/2010 Dan and Phil baiting an audience.

It is kind of baity though (not necessarily only queerbaiting but just baiting) because it's a "dan and phil sex tape", and of course it'd be weird and nonsensical when you actually watch it, and it comes off as troll-y, but that's with today's context, back then it was probably edgy and cool like "lol let's like say that it's our sex tape in the video title but actually make it really weird instead", nowadays they wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole (can't blame them though).

I'm not really getting my meaning across, am I? Oh dear. What I'm trying to say is that they knew that it would get a reaction out of people and deliberately used a scandalous title, where the actual content was (naturally) not what the title said it would, that's kind of the definition of baiting. Even if it's just trolling, trolling is still a form of baiting. If Joe Sugg titled his infamous queerbaiting video about his book like "Joe and Caspar sex tape" and it was just nonsense or even just the plug of his book, he would still get the same amount of criticism he got with his thumbnail.

[fancybum]

The sex tape was 2009, but... have you actually seen it? Because it's not like... actually enticing. They spin a chair upside down and Phil pats his face with a sock. I mean, if you have an upside down chair fetish, I guess it's baity as fuck. But otherwise... I don't think either of those are actually examples of 2009/2010 Dan and Phil baiting an audience.

i've seen it, and i personally consider the "sex tape" a perfect example of baiting (when something is promised, but not delivered). it's different from posting nude pics (actual fanservice), but it's still baiting. in fact, if they uploaded an actual sex tape i wouldn't call it baiting (but that would be a whole other story ). i also wouldn't consider it baiting if it was a surpise joke no one knew about, but they advertised it on twitter so that's a bait.

K I don't think anybody on a non-porn website would actually be expecting a sex tape first of all, but can we just establish that what's being discussed is clickbaiting in this scenario.