Dan & Phil Part 38: Everlasting as the Sun

[alittledizzy]

My theory is that Dan really, really wants this video to be a resounding success on youtube so that he has an excuse to do more things like it. "Wow guys that had three million views so I guess that maybe someone out there liked it, yeah yeah, we might do it again later, for you, if you deserve it, do you really deserve it? I don't know if you deserve it."

And meanwhile he's loading accessories into his amazon cart.

[Amiaw]

My theory is that Dan really, really wants this video to be a resounding success on youtube so that he has an excuse to do more things like it. "Wow guys that had three million views so I guess that maybe someone out there liked it, yeah yeah, we might do it again later, for you, if you deserve it, do you really deserve it? I don't know if you deserve it."

And meanwhile he's loading accessories into his amazon cart.

If that's what he's doing then it's working- the video is already at a million and a half views and it's only been a little over a day

[Diyes_Celine]

Is it bad this is the most attractive Dan has been to me, well, ever?

The tattoo really suits him. He should consider one.
I freaking want that unicorn plushie. I can buy for myself but it will be so much better if someone give me one. I really envy Dan. Ugh.

Also, I just want to say that I really miss your posts jaej.

[coffeepenguin]

Probably a bit late, but just wanted to say that I didn't get any tense/weird vibe from Dan's ls at all this time, appreciated his rants, although in some cases, I would appreciate it if he were more informed (indie movies winning awards at the Oscars and the like? you can dream, Daniel. The Office US is a good example of a new american comedy when it's literally a remake of the british series by the same people? come on ), but that's the beauty of it, really, he's a human being with all that it entails, not a ken doll and not your perfect soulless idol. And you get to see him grow, I re-read some timestamps for his 2012 live shows in the live show rewatch thread recently (thanks guys who are doing that btw ) and it just fills me with so much joy when I compare his statements at the time with what he's saying now, you go Dan (but, like, did he for real call his piano gay because of the fairy lights? you know, it's things like this that make me doubt phan, even if it was ironic, jeez)

Shout out to dizzy, you were (as always) spot on in your timestamps, but I wanted to comment on the Australian thing that stood out for me, too, in how fake it was. But now I look forward to it happening and seeing what Dan would be telling us afterwards. Also, intrigued about what Deppy's plans are for this year that would prevent them from going to youtube conventions.

Now, for the thing that really got me thinking, is how in his "you look gay" rant, 2017 edition, Dan talked about the correlation between behaviour and stereotypes (which I took as "sexual/romantic behaviour"), not "orientation" and stereotypes or even "sexuality" and stereotypes (although, he started with the same "hair can't look like a sexuality" that we've already got several years ago). It goes well with his whole no labels theme, does it not? And maybe I'm projecting here, but I sympathize a lot, I mean, personally (warning: personal story time), I've really struggled a lot with defining my sexuality, I still can't really say it out loud in my native language, there's this whole detachment thing in saying "I'm gay" in English which makes it much easier, and in general I'm a lot more comfortable with saying "I'm a woman and I want to date women" then any other stuff, even if I strongly identify as a member of the LGBTQ+ community [/oversharing]

Two things to discuss if somebody's interested:
- I just realized Deppy now have access to statistics for their ls, as in what moments do people watch the most, do you think that would affect / is already affecting the content?
- Judging by Dan's reaction to pastel edits video (as in getting defensive, although now I'm really happy to see him promoting it so much), if we were to get the cake scene (which we obviously aren't getting anytime soon), on whose channel do you think Deppy would put it and what the accompanying narrative would be?

[papierklemmen]

Maybe the importance will become clear when they drop the pastel merch (i'm only half kidding).

Dan hates promoting the merch- at least that's the impression he gives and Phil "my middle name is merch shop" Lester is usually very vocal about it so it's funny that Phil hasn't said much about it. I can't be sure but I doubt that Phil is going to be dressed in his pastel clothing for his live show - that's more Dan's thing so who knows.

technically he's not promoting merch right now, maybe it was part of his deal with phil: he promotes the hell out of the video so later he'll be free from promoting the actual merch. (and phil will be like "awww quelle surprise the video was so popular, so we decided to bring in some pastel merch!!!! *innocent face*")

[jhamba]

Sociology student rant incoming.

I got so mad when Dan said that pastel isn't as much of a culture as punk is. The only reason one would think something like this is misogyny.

Pastel is inherently feminine in a way punk isn't, and can never be. But, the pastel choice of being feminine is an active rebellion, against the patriarchy, which rewards being somewhat masculine. It's partly being hyperfeminine to destroy the idea that being feminine is weak, and partly being hyperfeminine to annoy people who told them to be more feminine. Like a, "you said I should be more feminine. I am, but on my own terms". Which is why the pastel subculture also incorporates the use of things that are considered taboo for women, like tattoos, drugs, cigarettes, and dyed hair in crazy colours, all to enhance the hyperfemininity.

Also, just because I'm on the subject, Pastel is not about being calming. It's about being muted. The colours won't stand out in a normal setting, and are very close to grey. It's much more trying to invoke the idea of mental illness, but not the angry, dark, and violent mental illness in punk style, rather, the quiet, empty, and understated depression, which looks and feels calmer. It's actually quite similar to punk, because it's a direct offshoot (hence, pastel punk). But, this is a more feminine offshoot, where cis women (the majority of the pastel punk peeps) take forced feminity, and twist it around to suit them. It's a show of power, in a society which tells women to shut up.

And, it even has it's own music, which is a lot more hyper feminine than punk could be. Artists like Halsey, Melanie Martinez, and even Marina and the Diamonds could be considered pastel singers. The style of music is very muted, feminine, and the topics are usually feminine depression.

Now, I can imagine that cis men would not be able to see these things about this subculture, because cis men are the norm, and are not trained to identify with women, but it does make me mad when people try to pass off pastel as just an aesthetic choice, or something that's not as much of a subculture as punk. In fact, I'd argue that punk is far more mainstream than pastel today, and that makes pastel a subculture to watch out for (in fashion, and in culture).

So, to say that pastel isn't as much of a subculture, or as counter culture as punk is, is just plain ignorant and misogynistic. so, basically, fuck you, Dan.

(embracing the pastel culture for men and trans women is a very different experience, btw. I could elaborate on that, but everyone would be bored and annoyed, and also, I have no experience with that, so it would be conjecture)

[dontpanic]

Sociology student rant incoming.

I got so mad when Dan said that pastel isn't as much of a culture as punk is. The only reason one would think something like this is misogyny.

Pastel is inherently feminine in a way punk isn't, and can never be. But, the pastel choice of being feminine is an active rebellion, against the patriarchy, which rewards being somewhat masculine. It's partly being hyperfeminine to destroy the idea that being feminine is weak, and partly being hyperfeminine to annoy people who told them to be more feminine. Like a, "you said I should be more feminine. I am, but on my own terms". Which is why the pastel subculture also incorporates the use of things that are considered taboo for women, like tattoos, drugs, cigarettes, and dyed hair in crazy colours, all to enhance the hyperfemininity.

Also, just because I'm on the subject, Pastel is not about being calming. It's about being muted. The colours won't stand out in a normal setting, and are very close to grey. It's much more trying to invoke the idea of mental illness, but not the angry, dark, and violent mental illness in punk style, rather, the quiet, empty, and understated depression, which looks and feels calmer. It's actually quite similar to punk, because it's a direct offshoot (hence, pastel punk). But, this is a more feminine offshoot, where cis women (the majority of the pastel punk peeps) take forced feminity, and twist it around to suit them. It's a show of power, in a society which tells women to shut up.

And, it even has it's own music, which is a lot more hyper feminine than punk could be. Artists like Halsey, Melanie Martinez, and even Marina and the Diamonds could be considered pastel singers. The style of music is very muted, feminine, and the topics are usually feminine depression.

Now, I can imagine that cis men would not be able to see these things about this subculture, because cis men are the norm, and are not trained to identify with women, but it does make me mad when people try to pass off pastel as just an aesthetic choice, or something that's not as much of a subculture as punk. In fact, I'd argue that punk is far more mainstream than pastel today, and that makes pastel a subculture to watch out for (in fashion, and in culture).

So, to say that pastel isn't as much of a subculture, or as counter culture as punk is, is just plain ignorant and misogynistic. so, basically, fuck you, Dan.

(embracing the pastel culture for men and trans women is a very different experience, btw. I could elaborate on that, but everyone would be bored and annoyed, and also, I have no experience with that, so it would be conjecture)

I'm sorry but...this is such a stretch

[trashqueen]

hello idb, long time no see, consider this Part 2 of the collaborative ‘dan needs to check himself’ rant started by jhamba

look, i want to preface this post by saying that this isn’t meant as an attack to dan and i do understand where he’s coming from (aka the lgb+ white cis guy that tries really hard to be woke but fails perspective), just so you know, but oh boy am i annoyed

dan, danny, daniel, great to see you go on a tangent about how gender and sexuality expectations and stereotypes are bullshit, i agree

but you ain’t getting any praise from me if you do that with the same breath you shit on your active female audience and praise the 3% of dudes that watch your videos as if their criteria for what makes good content is the objective reality and you need to be catering to them to consider what you make good

so, which one is it, is the male view more valuable to you or is gender bullshit? it’s gotta be one or the other mate, you can’t just be down for ending stereotypes when they affect the way you are perceived or just when it comes to aesthetics, women, especially teenage girls, being perceived as less critical, smart or easier to please than dudes is a stereotype, and a really fucking annoying one, i might even argue than it’s the basis of gender inequality

that being said, i 100% think that if dan is confronted about this he’d say that he’s aware of it and definitely doesn’t think less of his teen girl audience, he has even said so before, but he definitely still has internalized shit to deal with, and as you can see it’s really rubbing me the wrong way so i’m here venting about it, but i have faith he's gonna get it, eventually, i just wish he would hurry up a bit

too long didn't read: dan by all means go ahead and smash those stereotypes but pls be a little bit more self aware, thanks

[jhamba]

I'm sorry but...this is such a stretch

bruh, social movements gain popularity for reasons other than just plain aesthetic. And, pastel has lasted for a much longer time than passing trends do.

i’m here venting about it, but i have faith he's gonna get it, eventually, i just wish he would hurry up a bit

me

[shoe]

Part 3 of Dan's understanding of pastel is inaccurate: discuss

Dan doesn't see that pastel isn't necessarily happy because for him being feminine is something he can only do when he feels comfortable in himself. To him wearing pink and soft colours represents freedom from masculine expectations. He doesn't understand that to someone who was conditioned into femininity it represents giving up or re-claiming.
I think he genuinely feels joy in femininity when it's on his own terms, and because he's a cis man, it is only ever on his own terms. His only experience with having femininity forced on him by society is his audience clamouring for him to paint his fingernails, and because he's a rich white adult, he still has the power in that situation, and giving in to that is still exclusively on his own terms.

It would take another layer of empathy to understand that some women might feel about femininity as he felt about having masculinity forced on him, but worse because they got internalised misogyny forced on them at the same time. I do think that's a concept he'd be capable of understanding, but he hasn't got there yet. I'm not quite there yet either, because my non-binary experience is different yet again.

Disclaimer: I am not a cis man. I do not know how it feels to be a cis man, so this is purely me imagining. I would be very interested to hear a male (cis or otherwise) perspective on this.

[jhamba]

Part 3 of Dan's understanding of pastel is inaccurate: discuss

Dan doesn't see that pastel isn't happy because for him being feminine is something he can only do when he feels comfortable in himself. To him wearing pink and soft colours represents freedom from masculine expectations. He doesn't understand that to someone who was conditioned into femininity it represents giving up or re-claiming.
I think he genuinely feels joy in femininity when it's on his own terms, and because he's a cis man, it is only ever on his own terms. His only experience with having femininity forced on him by society is his audience clamouring for him to paint his fingernails, and because he's a rich white adult, he still has the power in that situation, and giving in to that is still exclusively on his own terms.

It would take another layer of empathy to understand that some women might feel about femininity as he felt about having masculinity forced on him, but worse because they got internalised misogyny forced on them at the same time. I do think that's a concept he'd be capable of understanding, but he hasn't got there yet. I'm not quite there yet either, because my non-binary experience is different yet again.

Disclaimer: I am not a cis man. I do not know how it feels to be a cis man, so this is purely me imagining. I would be very interested to hear a male (cis or otherwise) perspective on this.

I find this idea pretty interesting. It's cool to me that different people will find different reasons for enjoying something.

I think this makes most sense for why someone like Dan will not see the same meaning in pastel punk as a cis woman would. (still doesn't excuse him, but this is definitely a fascinating idea to me)

[malday]

Sociology student rant incoming.

I got so mad when Dan said that pastel isn't as much of a culture as punk is. The only reason one would think something like this is misogyny.

Pastel is inherently feminine in a way punk isn't, and can never be. But, the pastel choice of being feminine is an active rebellion, against the patriarchy, which rewards being somewhat masculine. It's partly being hyperfeminine to destroy the idea that being feminine is weak, and partly being hyperfeminine to annoy people who told them to be more feminine. Like a, "you said I should be more feminine. I am, but on my own terms". Which is why the pastel subculture also incorporates the use of things that are considered taboo for women, like tattoos, drugs, cigarettes, and dyed hair in crazy colours, all to enhance the hyperfemininity.

Also, just because I'm on the subject, Pastel is not about being calming. It's about being muted. The colours won't stand out in a normal setting, and are very close to grey. It's much more trying to invoke the idea of mental illness, but not the angry, dark, and violent mental illness in punk style, rather, the quiet, empty, and understated depression, which looks and feels calmer. It's actually quite similar to punk, because it's a direct offshoot (hence, pastel punk). But, this is a more feminine offshoot, where cis women (the majority of the pastel punk peeps) take forced feminity, and twist it around to suit them. It's a show of power, in a society which tells women to shut up.

And, it even has it's own music, which is a lot more hyper feminine than punk could be. Artists like Halsey, Melanie Martinez, and even Marina and the Diamonds could be considered pastel singers. The style of music is very muted, feminine, and the topics are usually feminine depression.

Now, I can imagine that cis men would not be able to see these things about this subculture, because cis men are the norm, and are not trained to identify with women, but it does make me mad when people try to pass off pastel as just an aesthetic choice, or something that's not as much of a subculture as punk. In fact, I'd argue that punk is far more mainstream than pastel today, and that makes pastel a subculture to watch out for (in fashion, and in culture).

So, to say that pastel isn't as much of a subculture, or as counter culture as punk is, is just plain ignorant and misogynistic. so, basically, fuck you, Dan.

(embracing the pastel culture for men and trans women is a very different experience, btw. I could elaborate on that, but everyone would be bored and annoyed, and also, I have no experience with that, so it would be conjecture)

There is nothing from this subculture that conveys any of this (bolded parts).

If you want a feminine trend close to a counterculture look at the Ganguro trend in Japan (though it was still just a trend).

[Birdie]

jhamba: I never thought about the whole issue like this and your post was really informative. But I think what Dan meant and what I actually agree with was that there is no pastel subculture like there is a punk subculture or the emo subculture or whatever. Pastel is a pretty new thing and it’s mostly used for aesthetics on tumblr or to enhance the styles of other subcultures (lolita, mainly soft grunge) so it’s not really it’s own subculture. I too think it’s a stretch to call it that. Maybe it will evolve into a subculture with time, who knows, but as of now? Nah.

And, it even has it's own music, which is a lot more hyper feminine than punk could be. Artists like Halsey, Melanie Martinez, and even Marina and the Diamonds could be considered pastel singers. The style of music is very muted, feminine, and the topics are usually feminine depression.

I’m not sure about Marina because she was indie pop from the beginning and still is and I frankly think it’s weird how she’s being grouped with Halsey and the likes on Tumblr since their music is nothing alike but Halsey and Melanie are basically grunge. There’s been a 1990s grunge revival lately and both their styles fit into that very neatly, especially into soft grunge. I don’t really think “pastel” in itself is a subculture, a music genre etc? It’s more like… an aesthetic some people belonging to other subcultures use in the way you described but is it really its own thing? I don’t think so.

So in conclusion I'm pretty sure Dan didn't say pastel wasn't a thing because he hates women and thinks a subculture consisting of mostly women isn't valid, he said pastel isn't a subculture because it isn't. It's part of a few other modern subcultures though. It's also important to remember that Soft Grunge is tumblr made. There's no denying this, it's an internet thing and it was designed for the aesthetics around the start of the 2010s. I see why you would connect it to feminism and I like the idea of that but I don't think it's the same as other subcultures.

(Can I also just say that I'm a bit uncomfortable with you excluding trans women like you did? I'm not sure how I'm supposed to understand that and I'm sure you meant no harm by it, but why would this pastel thing only concern cis women? Not trying to start anything here, it just ... seems weird to me.)

@trashqueen: Agreed. I think Dan is still growing as a person and still learning and that's okay. It's pretty clear he wants to learn and be better and he's already come so far. He'll get there.

[jhamba]

There is nothing from this subculture that conveys any of this (bolded parts).

If you want a feminine trend close to a counterculture look at the Ganguro trend in Japan (though it was still just a trend).

answered in the sociopolitical thread. you too, birdie

[jaej]

as a sociology/criminology student too, a trend isnt really the same as a subculture. the culture needs the music, cinema, photography and events plus the media response. and if its a counterculture specifically, it needs to actually counter the norms, not just be a paler version. there isnt really anything to consider pastel a ~culture~ when all it has is like... a couple ddlg enabling singers, pictures of bubble tea and being anything else thats relatively popular but paler. something like vaporwave or seapunk was super short lived (because it was quickly taken by big names like rihanna) but still seen as a subculture because it had the whole scene, not just some tumblr edits. hippie culture had a lasting impact because it was more than long hair and vegetarianism.

and the misogynist interpretation is odd tbh. punk and goth were both primarily founded by women, and i'm sure it wouldnt take long to find other subcultures equally or more populated by women. and neither are really masculine so much as a rejection of traditional gender norms. male punks and goths were very feminine at large tbh.
it's odd to argue that punk is more important to women because it allows a deviation from femininity, but also then that pastel isn't more important for men because... it allows women to be like more childish feminine things? singing about feeling weak and smoking doesnt seem like anything trend specific or specifically empowering for women in western culture? idk

[jhamba]

as a sociology/criminology student too, a trend isnt really the same as a subculture. the culture needs the music, cinema, photography and events plus the media response. and if its a counterculture specifically, it needs to actually counter the norms, not just be a paler version. there isnt really anything to consider pastel a ~culture~ when all it has is like... a couple ddlg enabling singers, pictures of bubble tea and being anything else thats relatively popular but paler. something like vaporwave or seapunk was super short lived (because it was quickly taken by big names like rihanna) but still seen as a subculture because it had the whole scene, not just some tumblr edits. hippie culture had a lasting impact because it was more than long hair and vegetarianism.

and the misogynist interpretation is odd tbh. punk and goth were both primarily founded by women, and i'm sure it wouldnt take long to find other subcultures equally or more populated by women. and neither are really masculine so much as a rejection of traditional gender norms. male punks and goths were very feminine at large tbh.
it's odd to argue that punk is more important to women because it allows a deviation from femininity, but also then that pastel isn't more important for men because... it allows women to be like more childish feminine things? singing about feeling weak and smoking doesnt seem like anything trend specific or specifically empowering for women in western culture? idk

sociopolitical thread

I think there's a sentiment of, "if it's teenage girls doing it, it's not good/real" in our society, and I think it's a similar thing when it comes to pastel punk, and yeah, I do think that's misogynistic

[mio]

everybody contributing to pastel discourse (tm)

This adds a really valid and interesting point!! I guess you could say that pastel tumblr aesthetics are the punk of our generation. It makes a lot of sense in the way that today's most progressive and questioning-the-norm subculture is in that sphere.
And while popular subcultures do feed into mainstream, fully embracing it is still the role of the "outcasts". Combine that with already existing misogyny and nobody taking young girls seriously.... well, you'd be lucky to get actual recognition for that from a cis-white guy.
But like mentioned in previous discussions, I am really tired of giving these guys so much credit and always the benefit of the doubt. I still love you Dan but please.

Anyway this is so interesting! Here are two tumblr posts that I was reminded of:
https://amakthel.tumblr.com/post/150645359327/
tumblr aesthetics as neo-dada http://n ... 1239-rifa On japanese girls kawaii culture as a form of rebellion

I too noticed how often Dan adresses "the male viewer", the "token straight guys" or whatever he calls them in his liveshows. While these must make a fraction of his complete audience. In comparison he almost never talks about teenage girls directly.
So even if he mentions the former group in a negative way (like the "edgy straight guys that watch me for the memes") he still gives them more recognition and value than his female/queer audience.

And lastly, the appropriation debate. I totally agree that this is different from real cultural appropriation, which always has to do with rascism and power dynamics. I was just thinking that the kind of appropriation that takes ideas, art and symbols from subcultures, things that people created as a way to self-organize and "resist" the system and makes them into something profitable, is another kind of revolting. Maybe we need another word for that.
And it comes in all kinds of shapes: glorification of protest culture (only the ones in different countries ofc), gentrification, monetization of fan-culture, share-economy business models...

Ok enough politics for today...

[jhamba]

I wish prophpbb had an option to add the thanks button, bc I feel like I would thank so many posts rn.

[alittledizzy]

but you ain’t getting any praise from me if you do that with the same breath you shit on your active female audience and praise the 3% of dudes that watch your videos as if their criteria for what makes good content is the objective reality and you need to be catering to them to consider what you make good

so, which one is it, is the male view more valuable to you or is gender bullshit? it’s gotta be one or the other mate, you can’t just be down for ending stereotypes when they affect the way you are perceived or just when it comes to aesthetics, women, especially teenage girls, being perceived as less critical, smart or easier to please than dudes is a stereotype, and a really fucking annoying one, i might even argue than it’s the basis of gender inequality

i have faith he's gonna get it, eventually, i just wish he would hurry up a bit

These are such important points to make. It's something that didn't occur to me at all as I was watching yesterday so I'm really glad the point is being made here on the forum because it's worth talking about.

And I do also believe that Dan is someone with the capacity to understand this, but it would take the message coming from someone whose opinion he valued and whose voice didn't get lost in the wave of comments from his audience that don't resonate with him because they're fandom-oriented, and thus the cycle continues.

[flurry]

I really liked that liveshow, lots of interesting moments!

About the punk "appropriation": first of all thank you Sakura selfie for your rant

Then again I can understand the people criticising that this is what he takes from the discourse of cultural appropriation. I mean, it's a subculture. Literally anybody can go ahead and dress in spiky leather jackets and dye their hair and whatnot who cares. But then again, Punk is also connected to a political stance and very real movement, so...
I feel this a lot actually because I used to hang with real "punks" and take part in political actions in my teens while the whole "emo" movement came up that just plain mainstreamed the style and had it handed to them via H&M, and I'm still sour about how dumb and apolitical all these emo kids were.
Anyway, this might be an interesting question for the sociopolitical thread, because honestly I've never thought about cultural appropriation this way but maybe it does count? Idk.

Another (kind of related lol) thing that I noticed was the completely casual reaction to the person saying they were "high while watching this", where he only says he's sorry he talked about food so much. Yay dude

I actually thought calling it "cultural appropriation" was a bit ignorant and insensitive. I agree with you and sakura selfie that he had a point since the Punk movement was political and not just a fashion trend but cultural appropriation cuts a lot deeper than that. Punk is not a culture in that sense, it's a movement and I don't think you can "appropriate" a political movement by dying your hair and putting on a leather jacket. Especially since the aesthetics of the punk movement have long found their way into mainstream fashion (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing). In the end Punk was and is something that was always open to everyone. I do think you have a point there and so did Dan but I did cringe a bit at his calling it cultural appropriation. Likening dressing up like a subculture, no matter how political, to the exploitation of non-western cultures is a bit... no.

Thank you!! These were my thoughts exactly but I felt a bit hesitant to post in case people thought I was nit picking. But yes. Cultural appropriation is something that trivialises a whole race/ethnic group of people that already have been marginalised through history and suffered much subjugation - that is exactly why it is problematic. It's not just about imitation or wearing similar clothes etc. Then again I'm glad that Dan and Phil make an effort to be aware and try to educate themselves and be inoffensive and as unproblematic as possible, even if they might not always be right

[jhamba]

agreed on the cultural appropriation part. It was inappropriate af, and I did not like it. I feel like that kind of rhetoric undermines actual cultural appropriation, which, as you all have mentioned, is a much more serious topic than punk (or pastel. or whatever counterculture which is relatively open)

[lerien]

Thank all of you for this educational thread, I'm so here for this Not a lot to say except the fact that cultural appropriation was not, as you said, the appropriate term, the problem here was the depoliticization of a movement by reducing it to its esthetics

[Ticia]

Thank you all for educating us a bit on this issue (I personally had no idea of the background and implications of "pastel")

In other news, Dan is in a queue fest on Tumblr.

[melon lord]

but you ain’t getting any praise from me if you do that with the same breath you shit on your active female audience and praise the 3% of dudes that watch your videos as if their criteria for what makes good content is the objective reality and you need to be catering to them to consider what you make good

so, which one is it, is the male view more valuable to you or is gender bullshit? it’s gotta be one or the other mate, you can’t just be down for ending stereotypes when they affect the way you are perceived or just when it comes to aesthetics, women, especially teenage girls, being perceived as less critical, smart or easier to please than dudes is a stereotype, and a really fucking annoying one, i might even argue than it’s the basis of gender inequality

i have faith he's gonna get it, eventually, i just wish he would hurry up a bit

These are such important points to make. It's something that didn't occur to me at all as I was watching yesterday so I'm really glad the point is being made here on the forum because it's worth talking about.

And I do also believe that Dan is someone with the capacity to understand this, but it would take the message coming from someone whose opinion he valued and whose voice didn't get lost in the wave of comments from his audience that don't resonate with him because they're fandom-oriented, and thus the cycle continues.

I made a botched comment about this elsewhere, but yeah, this.

I wonder if his emphasis on straight is because, how do I say this, if a straight guy likes his channel, then he is more likely to appreciate his content and less likely to fawn over his looks or the shipping facet of his internet past. So how does his opinion go on bisexual/pan/gay guys? Does he consider the potential of physical attraction somewhat cheapening the effort he puts into this videos? (I'm just thinking out loud at this point, not really making assumptions)

In another thought process, is he somewhat repulsed by the fact that people consider him attractive because he does not share that opinion (aka he has insecurities and doesn't see what people see in him) or because he wants to be "taken seriously" as a content creator? The teen magazines putting him in features must be embarrassing to him and I won't doubt his Youtube peers mocked him for it behind cameras. I think Dan worries that he's ended up as tween/teen fodder, especially for females. So him mentioning male names in the chat more often and making a point of it, is his way of comforting himself that he is indeed worth something without Phan or "omg so hot dan!!11!"?

It doesn't help that other Youtubers constantly cheapen him by mentioning him in their videos about how hot he is. I'm almost wondering if his insistence on black and "neutral" clothing is his way of greyrocking, where you try and be as "unintenteresting" and blend in as much as possible to attract less attention. He used to wear colourful and bright clothes in the days, and I'll argue that it's also just maturing and changing. But Phil still embraces it and isn't afraid to wear bright, in your face colours, he has almost a comic book vibe. Whereas Dan tries to come off as serious and ~thoughtful~ at almost every attempt, while disguising it with "irony".

I'll also go out on a limb and lowkey assume that other youtubers have mocked the phanbase. Which must be a weird paradox for Dan and Phil: on the one hand they are his bread and butter, they fund them and watch their videos and a lot of us are hilarious and funny and can raise money for charity and others, but there is also a flip side, an annoying side where they spam comments and spam youtubers and harass the internet and act in an "embarrassing way", which makes Dan cringe, and he is the avatar of this fanbase to his peers. It's like when you are the mother to monster children and you know it, but they are also your kids and you have to raise them and defend them.

I wonder if people have commented on Phil's content in that way, as in, it's not "serious". It seems Phil doesn't care though, which is great because he genuinely has fun with it, and that's what matters to him. Other youtubers get caught up in the self-ego stroking about being better, "more serious", "more integrity", like they are trying so hard to prove something, and Dan has fallen victim to that mentality.

sorry for chaos of thoughts

EDIT: An afterhought, I wonder if his mention of "ship him with his friend, cause they think it's kawaii" is a sort of apology to the straight edgy dudes watching the roast video like "yeah I know this happens and it's cringy pls don't think badly of me because it happens so much it's just cause they think it's cute honest it's nothing!"

[pilotlight]

I think it's fair to say that the way Dan approaches the pastel aesthetic* (among other things) has a lot to do with his gender and how he's been socialised to see masculinity/femininity. BisexualShoeMarriage described this better than I possibly could. I feel like for a lot of guy who aren't straight, there's this ongoing mental argument with yourself when it comes to embracing things that you like that are traditionally seen as feminine.

Like, you decide that you like something that's typically considered girly or feminine. And then you worry that you're gonna seem like a stereotype or that people will make fun of you or not take you seriously. And then you get annoyed and wonder why do you care what people think if what they think is homophobic or sexist, that's their problem, not yours, right? And what's so bad about fitting stereotype if you're just being yourself? You wonder why you're so defensive about something so silly, and why is the thing you like considered feminine in the first place? So you embrace it, and people react the way people tend to do, and you feel self-conscious and defensive, and the whole stupid argument in your head starts again.

Maybe there's an association of straight male approval = not getting bullied, I don't know. I'm sure misogyny plays a big role too. This is a conversation I've had with other guys since coming out so I know it's not just me, but I'm also not claiming that any of this is how Dan thinks, either.

I guess my point is that he's probably pretty caught up in the whole masculinity/femininity concept from a cis male perspective, and basically reiterating what alittledizzy said, it'll probably take some pointed input from someone he respects to change that. I'm not trying to excuse him (or myself) for any of this, just offering a possible explanation.

*not gonna touch on pastel as a subculture because he apparently isn't aware that it exist, and honestly neither did I before today.