coffeepenguin wrote:The horse video: nothing to say about the game itself which was quite funny (I'd rather watch that than Happy Wheels or Who's Your Daddy, sorry), but I'm offended by how bad they are with Japanese female names. SusanKun, are they for real, you're supposed to be weeb trash, sort your life out Also, boy, Dan looks tired in the beginning
Ok, and now for the thing I've just wasted my whole weekend on: gender-specific and gender-neutral pronouns in Dan and Phil's Undertale let's play.
So, as I said I would do it and because I have no social life (and because I also wanted to contribute to the discussion on Dan’s hypothetical preference for the “straight male” part of his audience, but nobody needs my opinion and I am much more interested in his and Phil’s general views on gender anyway), here are the timestamps for all the instances where Dan and Phil used third person pronouns to refer to their character in the Undertale let’s play. Plus, some cases of referring to their character or NPCs with a specific word when I found it interesting for some reason. Yes, I’ve watched all of the Undertale in two days, why do you ask Enjoy!
Dan and Phil play UNDERTALE! (episode 1) – January 17, 2016
2:08
The intro: *playing*
Dan: Oh, no she’s tripping… Is that a girl?
Phil: I don’t know
Dan: We don’t know, could be a grungy boy
Phil: Could be either
Dan: We have no idea what’s happening
Phil: I wish I had that hair
2:23
Human on the screen: *falls down a hole*
Phil: Oh, do you think the person is now in the world of monsters?
2:58
Game: Name the fallen human
Dan: Dil
Phil: Susan 5
4:00
Frisk/Toto: *appears for the first time*
Phil: Toto!
Phil: Suits the name!
Dan: What? How?
Phil: Just look at its little face!
4:19
Frisk/Toto: *explores the first room*
Dan: His face is like me every day
4:40
Frisk/Toto: *explores the cave further*
Dan: Wow, he doesn’t seem very distressed (NOTE: there is no discussion in the video, but from that moment on, Deppy only use “we/us” or “our character” or “Toto” for five whole episodes with an occasional “you” from Phil and “I” from Dan as Dan is the one controlling)
47:43
Save point: Seeing such a cute, tidy house in the RUINS gives you determination
Dan: This character knows how to appreciate the little things
***
NPCs in the first episode: Toriel is referred to as “she” from the beginning (Phil explicitly says he thinks Toriel “is a lady goat” when she appears), Deppy alternate between “it” and “he” for other monsters they encounter, including Flowey and Napstablook, and there are no discussions on pronouns.
COMIC SANS AND PAPYRUS (episode 2) – January 26, 2016
0:12
Dan: Previously, in the life of Toto, the small being: fell down a hole, into a world of monsters
12:55
Papyrus: *sees a human for the first time, has a strong reaction*
Phil: What is happening?
Dan: They can’t even, Phil, they are seeing a human for the first time (NOTE: Sans has already been referring to Papyrus as his brother)
13:25
Papyrus: Sans, I finally did it, Undyne will…
Dan: Do you reckon he’s their boss?
15:52
Papyrus’s note: Not yet a very famous royal guardsman
Dan: They will be after they haul our ass in
DATING A SKELETON (episode 3) – February 14, 2016
8:15
Rabbit at Grillby’s: No matter where I go, it’s the same menu, the same people… Help! I want new drinks and h-h-h-hot guys!!!!
Dan: Wow, a rabbit that knows what they want (NOTE: all the other monsters in the bar, except for the wife of the dog couple, and the fish, because previously the monster outside was talking about a fish lady, are referred to as “he” or “it”)
9:58
Monster at Grillby’s: Those dogs are part of the ROYAL GUARD, the elite military group led by UNDYNE.
Dan: I wanna meet this guy
Monster at Grillby’s: She’s rude (NOTE: Dan’s reaction face is priceless), loud, and beats up everybody who gets in her way…
Phil: Oh, it’s a girl
44.09
Yellow monster kid: Yo! Are you sneaking out to see her, too? Awesome… She’s the coolest, right?
Dan: Are they talking about Undyne? (NOTE: the yellow monster kid was referred to as “it” when it first appeared)
52.57
Papyrus: Regarding that human I called you about earlier… Huh? Did I fight them? Y-yes! Of course, I did! I fought them valiantly! …what? Did I capture them…? W-w-well… (NOTE: so you can see that the NPCs refer to Frisk/Toto as “they/them”)
THE ANNOYING DOG (episode 4) – March 20, 2016
13:00
Undyne: *picks the yellow monster kid up by its head*
Phil: Did she just chopped his head off?
Dan: No, I think she’s picked it up
13:27
Yellow monster kid: *appears to be alive*
Phil: Oh, he didn’t get his head chopped off
15:42
Purple face monster: *gives Frisk/Toto 3 gold for stepping on its face*
Phil: What? So, we… he paid us 3 gold for standing on his face?
16:07
Frisk/Toto: *steps on the face of the purple face monster several times*
Phil: I feel like his face is gonna get sore soon
Dan: But he obviously likes it (NOTE: Dan and then Phil both switch to “it” while discussing if they should continue stepping on the monster’s face, because “everything in this game has a meaning, because the stupid makers of the game are, like, good” and it might make their character evil)
TEMMIE VILLAGE! (episode 5) – May 19, 2016 (aka the one Deppy filmed in Kentucky while on tour)
22:20
Undyne: *prepares to kill Frisk/Toto*
Yellow monster kid: Yo!!!! You did it!!! Undyne is RIGHT in front of you!!! You’ve got front row seats to her fight!!!
Phil: Not now!
Dan: This guy
25:07
Yellow monster kid: *tries to be enemies with Frisk/Toto* Yo, I… I hate your guts.
Phil: That hurts!
Dan: *snaps*
Phil: That burned!
Yellow monster kid: Man, I… I’m such a turd. I’m… I’m gonna go home now.
Dan and Phil: Awww
Dan: Goodbye
Phil: They didn’t mean it
Yellow monster kid: *trips and falls*
Phil: Save him!
48:20
Mettaton: *appears for the first time*
Phil: Is it on one wheel?
Mettaton: OH BOY! I CAN ALREADY TELL IT’S GONNA BE A GREAT SHOW! EVERYONE GIVE A BIG HAND FOR OUR WONDERFUL CONTESTANT!
Dan and Phil: *clapping*
Dan: What the hell
Mettaton: NEVER PLAYED BEFORE GORGEOUS? NO PROBLEM! IT’S SIMPLE! THERE’S ONLY ONE RULE. ANSWER CORRECTLY…
Phil: Oh no
Mettaton: OR YOU DIE!!!
Phil: He’s got a thirst for… They did say there was a thirst for human blood (NOTE: it was Alphys who said it who’s been consistently referred to as “she/her”)
COOKING WITH UNDYNE! (episode 6) – August 1st, 2016 (aka the first one after the American TATINOF)
3:02
Dan: Tsundere is, like, an anime stereotype of a girl that secretly loves you but doesn’t want to admit it, so they’re mean to you
Phil: Can a boy be tsundere as well?
Dan: Anyone can be tsundere, even a plane, apparently
5:42
Phil: You know what’s going through my head now?
Dan: What?
Phil: Toto should have Pokemon Go within the game
Dan: Oh my god, they would be hatching so many eggs (NOTE: the first time Deppy referred to their character as “they/them”)
SCARY SPIDER ATTACK (episode 7) – December 5, 2016 (aka the one everybody was waiting for because of the guards thing)
7:08
Phil: It’s like one of those dreams when you’re not prepared for anything
Dan: What, I’m a news reporter, oh God, I don’t know anything, I’m on the spot
Phil: At least Toto has got the pants on them, (un??)like me
***
Also, completely unrelated to the topic, but I love Dan’s “Never say that, if you ever touch somebody, Phil, that’s incredibly distracting” in response to Phil’s going “Bongo-bongo-bongo-boob” (idk either) when they choose the option to pat RG 02’s chest during the fight with the guards @ 3:53
WE ARE HARD-CORE! (episode 8) – December 16, 2016
32:56
Frisk/Toto: *enters the red house near Napstablook’s*
Red house: *has a lot of pink things inside*
Phil: What is this?
Dan: It’s just the girl Napstablook’s house
35:28
Phil: That was the mystery key, was that worth it?
Dan: All we know is, whatever it is, this used to be Mettaton’s bedroom
Phil: Yeah
Dan: I mean…
Phil: It’s nice
Dan: That’s not what we thought
Phil: No
Dan: Maybe if he attacks us again, we can use this agains(t him)
37:46
Mettaton: *appears again*
Dan: We know your secret now, Mr Pink Bedroom! *turns to Phil* Does Mettaton have a gender?
Phil: I don’t know (NOTE: Mettaton has been consistently referred to as “he/him” by other characters throughout the game)
Dan: We just assumed its gender this whole time
Phil: I assumed it’s a boy
56:44
Dan: *after the fight with Mettaton EX* To be honest, when we saw his other form, he suited that fabulous pink house, I mean… He had it all going on
Phil: Definitely
ASGORE ATTACKS!!! (episode 9) – December 21, 2016
52:08
Dan: *during the final phone call with Sans* How does Toto have a cell phone reception?
Phil: I don’t know
Dan: …wherever the heck they are?
THE TRUE PACIFISTS (episode 10) – December 23, 2016 (THE END)
1:07:33
Asriel: *kills Frisk/Toto once again* Show me what good your DETERMINATION is now!
Dan: I mean, it’s pretty good, because they keep doing this attack and we keep just infinitely coming back to life, so, I mean, the determination’s pretty great, in my opinion
1:15:02
Asriel: *smiling*
Dan: It’s smiling!
1:15:41
Dan: Is this whole thing just because he misses Toto (like??) when they were childhood friends?
1:33:38
Game: It felt so strange to lie in the bed. It feels entirely too small for you now.
Dan: Toto’s grown
Phil: We’ve grown as a person (NOTE: I’m mostly sure he says “we”, but not 100%, I’m sure it’s “X’ve”, though)
1:47:25
Frisk/Toto: *asleep in a bed*
Phil: She’s in her little bedroom (NOTE: yep, here we go, the thing that started it all, no reaction from Dan whatsoever)
***
Also, I have to say, watching the Alphys date thing after the fight with the guards, it really does seem like Deppy spoiled the guards scene for themselves, at least in some degree, but honestly had no idea about having to roleplay the date with Undyne, Dan is so flustered the whole time, lol (also, makes me wonder how the hell Deppy managed to do the fanfiction segment in TATINOF, even if they – and by “they” I mean most probably Dan – wrote it themselves)
Final thoughts
Ok, so, first, I must say that gender neutral language is still somewhat new to me, despite first encountering it, like, ten years ago, as English isn’t my first language and in Russian (which is my native language) and in French (which is the language I’m using the most at the moment) the way the language system is built makes it quite difficult to speak in gender neutral terms. Second – and following my first point, I won’t really analyze it (y'all are welcome to do it instead) because I don’t speak English that well nor do I know enough about the use of gender neutral pronouns in it (and because I haven’t done anything related to my theoretical linguistics degree in four years, so I’ve forgotten pretty much everything). Three things, however, stood out for me:
1. no third person pronouns for the main character in the first five episodes, except in the very beginning, and no trying to use “they/them” for it without prompting from the game
2. how pretty much all monsters are automatically referred to as “he/him” by both Dan and Phil
3. Dan doubting Mettaton’s gender based on how pink his bedroom was
And no, I still don’t know what that Phil’s “she” in the end was about
Finally, doing all this really reminded me of the time when I was in uni and had to transcribe texts in a language I didn’t speak, shout out to that (Deppy can’t articulate for shit, is all I’m saying).
I’m surprised to learn that they avoided using they/them pronouns for Toto until the later episodes. I found the earlier, more relaxed Undertale videos very calming, and part of that was that they felt quite gender-affirming for me.
On Phil’s unexpected use of ‘she’, perhaps he perceived something about Toto in that moment as feminine, maybe the cuteness of being small and tucked up in bed (obviously men sleep too, idk if this makes sense) and that’s why he said ‘she’?
I think Phil generally struggles with the concept of someone being genderless, or having a neutral gender, whereas Dan has internalised the idea that a person might not have a gender. Dan says “does ___ have a gender?” and I don’t think Phil ever has.
Another video that’s interesting for neutral pronoun analysis is the gamingmas Akinator video
For example, the Christmas tree section: 9:41
Game: Is your character’s gender female?
Phil: Is it female?
Dan: ooo what’s the gender of our tree?
Phil: Don’t know.
Dan: our – our tree doesn’t conscribe to societal gender…
Phil: It’s all genders. So say “don’t know”.
Dan: so no. It’s not female
Phil: It’s all genders.
Dan: it’s just omnigender
It doesn’t go quite as I transcribed it because they’re talking over each other, especially at the end. The idea of the tree being “all the genders” seems to have been originally Phil’s, and Dan’s “omnigender” was him agreeing.
On the horse video, I’m surprised there haven’t been any posts exclaiming about the fact that Dan chose to make a video in which he and Phil were both at times role-playing dating a male character, and at other times role-playing dating eachother(‘s characters). This is so far from them over thinking (and maybe procrastinating?) the Undertale guards scene?? :wtf:
coffeepenguin wrote: Also, I have to say, watching the Alphys date thing after the fight with the guards, it really does seem like Deppy spoiled the guards scene for themselves, at least in some degree, but honestly had no idea about having to roleplay the date with Undyne, Dan is so flustered the whole time, lol (also, makes me wonder how the hell Deppy managed to do the fanfiction segment in TATINOF, even if they – and by “they” I mean most probably Dan – wrote it themselves)
Maybe the defining factor is that they’re in control? They wrote the fanfiction script, Dan chose to play the horse game, but they had to do the dating scenes in Undertale because they’d committed to the Let’s Play.
dontpanic wrote: also I'm so sorry this is SO offtopic, but I was wondering if anyone knows why dan collabed twice with Tyler? they're not that good of friends are they? and Deppy rarely collaborate with other people let alone twice...was it just because they both had a lot of followers and wanted to make the $$$? was it because tyler collab(ed) with basically everyone and dan felt left out? are they actually pretty close and I just haven't noticed? Are dan and tyler secretly dating and they needed a cover to explain why they were together so much?
I wondered about that too. In fact I wonder about anyone who collabs with only one of D&P and not the other. Like the Tipsy Talk/Guess American States vids with Hazel and Phil, Caspar's Interview with Dan two years before making collab videos with Phil... I wonder if they don't really plan these collabs far in advance and just invite the person round in a friendly way, then they end up making a video naturally without too much thought put into them? Like with all the Dan/Louise collabs but none exclusively with just Phil and Louise. So many questions.
Edit: I forgot about the Phil/Louise Christmas videos, whoops.
I enjoy Dan’s rare "angsty" “jk” tweets and Phil's weird tweets that he leaves unexplained. Idk if I should ask here or on the white whale thread, but I always wondered what exactly this Dan tweet referred to?
I'm not sure whether there was ever any actual context to that tweet, but just speculating: I assume he's talking about the turmoil caused by dropping out of uni, feeling like he wasn't sure what he was doing with his life or whether youtube would work out for him. By September 2014, I assume they were in the very early stages of talking about the book/tour, his youtube channel was doing well, they were over a year and a half into the radio show. Plus, that tweet was posted about a week before they launched the gaming channel. I presume he meant that he finally felt like his life had some direction and that dropping out of uni was worth it. But then again, it could have had a different meaning entirely, who knows really
Re: their generic tweets - I find them a bit tedious personally, and sometimes like they're trying a bit hard maybe (especially Dan tbh)? That might just be me though, maybe they really just are awkward, mundane snippets of their lives they feel like sharing. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't bother me too much though, regardless of what they tweet there's going to be someone criticising them so I understand why they keep it vague and formulaic. Plus, tweets are just tweets really, they're not earning money from them so I don't think it's fair of me to hold them to particularly high standards at the end of the day.
Re: creep shots - It really bothers me when people take candid photos of them, that must be so uncomfortable for them and if I were them, it'd make me never want to leave the house.
I saw on tumblr people were speculating that phil called dan 'babe' in that photo someone took (without their consent *cough*) ... I mean really it's probably just the "dnp feeding each other candies at the cinema" thing all over again?
thanks everyone who answered by question about tyler! I love the dan/tyler collabs which is so weird b/c I'm here for chill phil vids and dan sketches, plus I find most other collabs so awkward. I was on deppy hiatus at the time so thanks more context.
Re: D&P's horse play
I'm 95% convinced phil finds the app just as boring as most of us but was pretending to like it near the end because he's a who loves his dan and doesn't want to hurt bf/bff's feelings
I can't remember which DAPG vid it was, but it reminds me of that time dan quizzed phil on mmo lingo dan has apparently taught him a while ago. I can't stop imagining dan going on 30 minute rants passionately teaching phil about things phil has very little interest in but listens/learns anyway because he can tell dan's so into it it's just like how dan doesn't watch the lame reality tv he likes but does watch what phil likes i'm now so off topic from their horse romance role-play
Re: the gift/curse that is their upload schedule
basically just a rehash, but is it kinda the consensus that Deppy's frequent upload schedule is because they have a lot more time now without a radioshow or liveshow or book etc? is it for the delicious ad revenue so they can buy their mansion in IOM (I may have a weird theory that they one day move close to phil's parents)?
I think it's been mentioned, do you think they might be hardcore uploading so they can stay relevant? I'm so impressed honestly, they've not only stayed popular so long but thrived. So many youtubers fizzled out at around 1 mil followers and lost relevance. They probably don't want to end up like tyler (no offense to tyler), ctfxc, ijustine I had such a crush on her now I'm like...why? charlie, smosh (relative to what they were before), etc.
TBH they're probably just uploading to ruin our time management skills.
and lol BisexualShoeMarriage, I thought for a few seconds that the vid you posted was a new upload and I was SO close to crying because I have so so so much to do today and if they really did post a new vid I knew I would end up wasting spending hours watching and over-analyzing it. I spent 20 mins on this post anyway so I guess I procrastinated anyway
Re: Chris
Why does chris always answer foursome questions on younow? he's answered the same question so many times and I know people won't stop asking him but if he's as uncomfortable as it comes across why wouldn't he ignore it or say he doesn't want to answer those questions anymore or something, why would he keep giving very long talks about it? I guess he's the only one who can answer that, but I just don't get it and find it kind of annoying.
Although it is interesting what he said about vyou. ah capitalism, getting youtubers to have foursomes since 2012. Maybe I should change my dissertation to be about that.
BisexualShoeMarriage wrote:
coffeepenguin wrote: Also, I have to say, watching the Alphys date thing after the fight with the guards, it really does seem like Deppy spoiled the guards scene for themselves, at least in some degree, but honestly had no idea about having to roleplay the date with Undyne, Dan is so flustered the whole time, lol (also, makes me wonder how the hell Deppy managed to do the fanfiction segment in TATINOF, even if they – and by “they” I mean most probably Dan – wrote it themselves)
Maybe the defining factor is that they’re in control? They wrote the fanfiction script, Dan chose to play the horse game, but they had to do the dating scenes in Undertale because they’d committed to the Let’s Play.
I agree. I also think the Alphys date thing felt way more...real/romantic/semi-serious compared to the absurdity of the horse prince app I really hope they don't make this a series
Chris' answer really interests me, even though it doesn't technically prove anything it says a lot. I agree that aside from the no-homoing deppy were more open in a lot of ways in 2012, even looking at how much less rigid their liveshows were.
As someone who is EXTREMELY insecure about candid photos of myself, I always feel really bad for hem when I see people post creepy pics they took of them even if there's no malice behind it. No shade to anyone on here though because it's already on Twitter so posting it on a little forum isn't exactly doing damage.
The generic tweets are a bit annoying, though I have more of a problem with Phil's robotic tweets than Dan being the personification of @sosadtoday. I guess to me Dan's tweets at least feel semi personal while Phil's do not. His Twitter doesn't feel genuine at all most of the time.
dontpanic wrote:Re: the gift/curse that is their upload schedule
basically just a rehash, but is it kinda the consensus that Deppy's frequent upload schedule is because they have a lot more time now without a radioshow or liveshow or book etc? is it for the delicious ad revenue so they can buy their mansion in IOM (I may have a weird theory that they one day move close to phil's parents)?
I think it's been mentioned, do you think they might be hardcore uploading so they can stay relevant? I'm so impressed honestly, they've not only stayed popular so long but thrived. So many youtubers fizzled out at around 1 mil followers and lost relevance. They probably don't want to end up like tyler (no offense to tyler), ctfxc, ijustine I had such a crush on her now I'm like...why? charlie, smosh (relative to what they were before), etc.
TBH they're probably just uploading to ruin our time management skills.
I have speculated that there's a major #spon incoming, but it would've happened by now I think so for now I have to conclude that they're just actually sticking to their promise of focusing more on YouTube this year without any distractions. I don't think we'll ever see more consistent uploading on the main channels than we do now (especially not from Dan) but the gaming channel fulfills the promise just as nicely and keeps the phandom happy. But keeping themselves relevant is definitely also an important factor, I'm sure they know they're almost past their prime and their potential to grow is getting smaller so holding on to their current fanbase is now one of the most important things for their careers. (I would like to note though that CTFxC didn't fizzle out in a natural way like the others, but because Charles and Alli very suddenly got divorced and then The Other Website pretty much exposed Charles for being a cheating dick by doing some detective work that would even make the detectives of IDB look like amateurs.)
I enjoy Dan’s rare "angsty" “jk” tweets and Phil's weird tweets that he leaves unexplained. Idk if I should ask here or on the white whale thread, but I always wondered what exactly this Dan tweet referred to?
I'm not sure whether there was ever any actual context to that tweet, but just speculating: I assume he's talking about the turmoil caused by dropping out of uni, feeling like he wasn't sure what he was doing with his life or whether youtube would work out for him. By September 2014, I assume they were in the very early stages of talking about the book/tour, his youtube channel was doing well, they were over a year and a half into the radio show. Plus, that tweet was posted about a week before they launched the gaming channel. I presume he meant that he finally felt like his life had some direction and that dropping out of uni was worth it. But then again, it could have had a different meaning entirely, who knows really
Like he’s finally putting his writing skills or passion for gaming to use etc. Could be something personal, we’ll probably never know for sure. Cryptic. I retrospectively (as I wasn’t introduced to deppy yet) remember that period in 2014 as them being suddenly super relaxed and comfortable on camera in gaming videos, idk, maybe it was a period of renaissance of their friendships/relationship, partially caused by working together on exciting new projects. While the tweet is almost certainly a metaphor, I alluded it to the pinof question list that Dan kept in a box for many years and then shared in tabinof lol, but that’s too # of an explanation.
I can't remember which DAPG vid it was, but it reminds me of that time dan quizzed phil on mmo lingo dan has apparently taught him a while ago. I can't stop imagining dan going on 30 minute rants passionately teaching phil about things phil has very little interest in but listens/learns anyway because he can tell dan's so into it it's just like how dan doesn't watch the lame reality tv he likes but does watch what phil likes i'm now so off topic from their horse romance role-play
I remember when he went on a YouTuber rant that lasted 15 minutes in a livestream and was apparently the "short version" so Phil has probably sat through the long one because he's such a sweet bff/bf
Phil said a while ago he watches them cos he's a cool guy like that. Brilliant screenshot and tweet, that's so cute.
Property shows are as addictive as crack or chocolate. Once you place your ass on the sofa, turn on the TV and decide to watch one of those "because there's nothing else", you're done. Also, you acquire very useful knowledge of the Canadian house market.
Phil said a while ago he watches them cos he's a cool guy like that. Brilliant screenshot and tweet, that's so cute.
Property shows are as addictive as crack or chocolate. Once you place your ass on the sofa, turn on the TV and decide to watch one of those "because there's nothing else", you're done. Also, you acquire very useful knowledge of the Canadian house market.
Exactly! Finally a tweet which us older folks can relate to Seriously, though, that is adorable!
Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
secretagentphan wrote:Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
On topic of the heternormativity in fanfics, and I suppose "phan marriage", one of my pet peeves is that the person proposing is nearly always Phil. There's of course the Top/Bottom argument that's beaten to death, but probably has a logical conclusion ultimately, even though a lot of initial founding of it is based on the "girl and boy" roles in the relationship. Then also how in phanfics, Dan is mostly the one "upset" and Phil is there as the one to comfort him. I don't know about anyone else, but it feels kind of like sly self-insert phanfic in a way sometimes the sort of roles and cliches I read a lot.
secretagentphan wrote:Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
On topic of the heternormativity in fanfics, and I suppose "phan marriage", one of my pet peeves is that the person proposing is nearly always Phil. There's of course the Top/Bottom argument that's beaten to death, but probably has a logical conclusion ultimately, even though a lot of initial founding of it is based on the "girl and boy" roles in the relationship. Then also how in phanfics, Dan is mostly the one "upset" and Phil is there as the one to comfort him. I don't know about anyone else, but it feels kind of like sly self-insert phanfic in a way sometimes the sort of roles and cliches I read a lot.
EXACTLY!! Dan has made quite a few comments about liking sex that way so I get it. What I don't get is him having to be "the girl" (I hate even typing that ew) or the submissive one because of it. It's really bullshit.
secretagentphan wrote:Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
On topic of the heternormativity in fanfics, and I suppose "phan marriage", one of my pet peeves is that the person proposing is nearly always Phil. There's of course the Top/Bottom argument that's beaten to death, but probably has a logical conclusion ultimately, even though a lot of initial founding of it is based on the "girl and boy" roles in the relationship. Then also how in phanfics, Dan is mostly the one "upset" and Phil is there as the one to comfort him. I don't know about anyone else, but it feels kind of like sly self-insert phanfic in a way sometimes the sort of roles and cliches I read a lot.
EXACTLY!! Dan has made quite a few comments about liking sex that way so I get it. What I don't get is him having to be "the girl" (I hate even typing that ew) or the submissive one because of it. It's really bullshit.
secretagentphan wrote:Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
On topic of the heternormativity in fanfics, and I suppose "phan marriage", one of my pet peeves is that the person proposing is nearly always Phil. There's of course the Top/Bottom argument that's beaten to death, but probably has a logical conclusion ultimately, even though a lot of initial founding of it is based on the "girl and boy" roles in the relationship. Then also how in phanfics, Dan is mostly the one "upset" and Phil is there as the one to comfort him. I don't know about anyone else, but it feels kind of like sly self-insert phanfic in a way sometimes the sort of roles and cliches I read a lot.
EXACTLY!! Dan has made quite a few comments about liking sex that way so I get it. What I don't get is him having to be "the girl" (I hate even typing that ew) or the submissive one because of it. It's really bullshit.
Wait, what? Could you elaborate?
:wtf: Yeah I was gonna ask this but just assumed it was common knowledge that I should know or something because I recall nothing of the sort...
secretagentphan wrote:Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
On topic of the heternormativity in fanfics, and I suppose "phan marriage", one of my pet peeves is that the person proposing is nearly always Phil. There's of course the Top/Bottom argument that's beaten to death, but probably has a logical conclusion ultimately, even though a lot of initial founding of it is based on the "girl and boy" roles in the relationship. Then also how in phanfics, Dan is mostly the one "upset" and Phil is there as the one to comfort him. I don't know about anyone else, but it feels kind of like sly self-insert phanfic in a way sometimes the sort of roles and cliches I read a lot.
EXACTLY!! Dan has made quite a few comments about liking sex that way so I get it. What I don't get is him having to be "the girl" (I hate even typing that ew) or the submissive one because of it. It's really bullshit.
Wait, what? Could you elaborate?
:wtf: Yeah I was gonna ask this but just assumed it was common knowledge that I should know or something because I recall nothing of the sort...
I won't go into too much detail, but to summarize, Who tops? is a large discussion in the phandom, and people like to argue about it, wondering if their relationship is fixed or versatile. However, many people just fall under the assumption that Dan predominately bottoms due to his mentions of himself in submissive positions and just the infamous tweet favoriting thing. This isn't confirmation, though.
secretagentphan wrote:Very off topic but you know what annoys me more than anything? In marriage phanfics where they literally treat Dan like "the girl" in the ceremony like they straight up say shit like that. It's just a painful reminder that ignorant people still need to have "a boy and a girl" in a relationship when in reality they're two guys!! Hence the fact that it would be a HOMOsexual relationship! Ugh
On topic of the heternormativity in fanfics, and I suppose "phan marriage", one of my pet peeves is that the person proposing is nearly always Phil. There's of course the Top/Bottom argument that's beaten to death, but probably has a logical conclusion ultimately, even though a lot of initial founding of it is based on the "girl and boy" roles in the relationship. Then also how in phanfics, Dan is mostly the one "upset" and Phil is there as the one to comfort him. I don't know about anyone else, but it feels kind of like sly self-insert phanfic in a way sometimes the sort of roles and cliches I read a lot.
EXACTLY!! Dan has made quite a few comments about liking sex that way so I get it. What I don't get is him having to be "the girl" (I hate even typing that ew) or the submissive one because of it. It's really bullshit.
Wait, what? Could you elaborate?
:wtf: Yeah I was gonna ask this but just assumed it was common knowledge that I should know or something because I recall nothing of the sort...
I won't go into too much detail, but to summarize, Who tops? is a large discussion in the phandom, and people like to argue about it, wondering if their relationship is fixed or versatile. However, many people just fall under the assumption that Dan predominately bottoms due to his mentions of himself in submissive positions and just the infamous tweet favoriting thing. This isn't confirmation, though.
Yeah I'm aware of the Phil tops/Dan bottoms thing but just wasn't sure what exactly they were referencing.
SexyTrashCan wrote:Yeah I'm aware of the Phil tops/Dan bottoms thing but just wasn't sure what exactly they were referencing.
If you wanted some more specific examples: enter me Troye, Evan Peters and his lobster action, multiple iterations of 'fuck me up the ass' as an exclamation, presenting frequently on camera, the bottom tweet favorite, fingering his g-spot mention in the video - off the top of my head.
None of which is conclusive anything because who really expect Dans, king of 'lol i'm joking but not really' to make any conclusive statements about anything? But they are all examples of him shaping language in a way that doesn't discourage the idea of Dan as receptive - stacked side by side with approximately zero similar statements from Phil.
I think it's more reasonable to view this as a reflection of what Dan is comfortable being associated with than rigid bedroom preferences.
Also, boy, Dan looks tired in the beginning
