Dan & Phil Part 53: another two months

[flarequake]

Thanks for your thoughts, twix and somethingsketchy. The misogyny element hadn't occurred to me, but it's even more infuriating than homophobia since people probably think they're open-minded. If they don't realise they're doing it obviously it continues being this insidious problem that affects more than they realise.

Really good points about coming out too, twix. Both have resisted it for a long time, I doubt they'll feel a need to in future. Maybe if their circumstances change and people annoy them then "yes, now drop it" could help, but still idk if they would.

Edit: heh, how fitting that my first post as trash is top of the page

[relatablemood]

Let me just contribute by saying I had a dream/idea when I was falling asleep whereby Dan releases a video with the title "I GOT MARRIED!" and in this video he treats it like a typical Reasons Why Dan's A Fail, never mentioning who he actually got married to, just giving us details about the reception and about all the times he coughed in a relative's face or fell down the aisle And then, at the very end, he looks straight in the camera and mimics, "But Dan, who did you get married to?". He laughs and goes "Who do you bloody think?"

Roll end screen and boom, subtle double coming out.

EDIT: I'm finding it really hard to change my avatar. As in, it won't let me Help??

[sparkle]

Since its multiple-opinion day it seems, I'll throw out mine on deppy's sexuality... my only wish for them at this point is some sort of casual acknowledgement, not wink and nod, or glass closet stuff, just one day *boom* you're out to the world, but without the fanfare, like Jon Cozart—he didn't have a coming out video, he posted an insta of what was clearly a coming out celebration (if you looked close enough) with his friends and since then has made only passing comments and jokes about his bisexuality, but there is no room for ambiguity—he's an out Bi man. Now if Dan's biggest hang up is the whole label thing, fine, then speak to that and don't turn it around and say that it's society's issue that we can't figure you out or put you in a box. At some point denial and misdirection seems an awful lot like shame.

I'm not sure how others feel about celebrities or public figures and their "social obligation" (if there is one) to come out so they can be a beacon for others or an advocate for the community, I'm not sure I buy into it myself, but if I had one reason for either or both of them to come out would be for the positive impact and visibility, especially for a younger demographic that makes up the majority of their audience... there's a lot of power in someone you admire and are entertained by and hearing and seeing them come out. There's a plethora of examples, but let's just say you're a young diver or athlete and you grew up watching Tom Daley in the Olympics and said I want to be like him someday, now imagine that same young athlete is questioning their sexuality and you see your idol come out and live their life open and unabashed—that is incredibly inspiring and influential and could change the life of that young person (and many others to be sure).

I feel like a dick for saying it, but at this point I think D&Ps sexuality is not public because of selfish reasons or hangups—they will never (seemingly) come out as a couple, so revealing their sexuality comes too close to erasing the plausible deniability of the platonic nature of their relationship.

The only other more slightly outlandish theory that is always in the back of my mind, is they were once romantic, but put it aside around the time they moved in together for the sake of their friendship and working relationship (though I'd refuse to believe that both of them would have this exact same desire so odds are one of them ends up living with unrequited love—very fanfic, I know)—that at least would add a level of complexity that they'd rather avoid being public knowledge and therefore that's why they guard their sexuality.

Spoiler by me to save space (EDIT: also I read this through and would like to clarify that this is no way an attack on anything you've said, I do partly agree with you, I just also think that a different perspective should be considered)

I always see discourse about how they should come out for their young fans who are going through a sexuality crisis. I'm not exactly a young fan (being that I am 22) however I am a fan that has gone through a sexuality crisis (2008-2009 we do not remember you fondly). I LOVE that as it stands, Dan has never 'come out' but his attraction to genders other than cis female is undeniable.

Why? Because I did the exact same thing. I have never, ever 'come out' even as far back as 2009 when I was 14 I would be like 'oh yeah like if I could date anyone on the planet it would either be Amy Lee or Mikey Way, they're both so hot' and it wasn't a big deal. I never made a big overdramatic statement, I considered it, but it wasn't right because I would never have to do it if I was straight? So why should I just because I'm not heterosexual theres nothing weird or wrong with that? It IS a problem that in our society we are expected to announce when we are queer and different because it does not matter, it is not the crux of our collective queer identity. It's something I really struggled with when I was a young teenager (13-15 in particular) and I conversely feel like having someone like Dan who says things like 'wtf even is your sexuality' would have been extremely validating to my feeling that 'coming out' was bullshit that didnt matter. I didnt want to feed into a social obligation that I don't believe in, therefore I didnt, but nobody else around me seemed to do that. Having someone do what I was doing, but visible to millions, would have been amazing for my teenage self esteem.

For me there is power in just being, never referring to it, just being queer. I don't hide that I've had a girlfriend for nearly three years, in the same breath I don't hide the fact that if Phil ever wants to call me I'm down, that the attraction thread on GG changed my life, or that Adore Delano is probably my biggest crush in the world right now because fuck the gender binary

so yeah, I disagree that there is some sort of cultural obligation to 'come out'. And I think a rejection of that norm is actually, extremely empowering.

Change of topic -
because I'm trash or something idk I saw awsugar mention that they wouldn't be on the moving train until they saw something like a baking video with only the essentials in the kitchen. Grab your tinfoil lads because this is a good one.

Halloween normally means baking video. The easter one was in there bare af kitchen, which we had seen many times. This kitchen, that they've been in for months, we have literally not seen more than the fridge of. So how would we know? If the kitchen really is ZOMG SO MUCH STORAGE then it could be bare af because all of their things could be put away (thinking like pans, coffee syrups, tea and coffee, things you'd normally have on a counter) or out of frame. Or because they are moving. Because we have also only seen very small chunks of their flat regularly, it would be easier for them to keep those sets up, and have them be the absolute LAST things to move. We wouldn't notice as easily as before because I can't tell you any significant details about their apartment, especially when compared to their old one. If they release a halloween video everyday for the last week of October, they have a schedule to stick to that means they can skip out on liveshows because the amount of content is higher than average anyway. Which gives them the perfect time to move in the last part of the month.

I'm going to say that if they were going to move again in October (ask about March in another two months when we're in the forever home and its undeniable that we're more committed than Donald Trump is to making America a laughing stock) Spooky Week is the perfect cover. They've already promised it which means that they can also say 'we've been busy preparing for Spooky Week which is why I can't do a live show tonight guys, sorry', throw in one or two joint ones to talk about upcoming games from a generic location and boom, you've hit November before you've realised that they now own a corgi and their apartment is mysteriously less curvaceous.

Which leads me onto this; It's nearly September which means we get the joyous occasions of PINOF 9, halloween and christmas. SO I would like to ask everyone what are your 'end of year predictions'?

(Edited because I can't spell)

[sentinel]

That reaction video, oh cringe. How can people think they're twins That comment about a Mr Bean wig on a White Walker. Ouch. Kinda funny, though. What is it about men not liking them, though? It seems so common, there are so many kids and more women than men in the phandom, always the ones who leap to hate them are straight (I guess) adult men. I don't know if there's anything deep to it or is it just cos they're not macho, but queer and cute with it? Is it a homophobic thing, even if people don't realise it, or is not liking them and their humour not that deep? Young guy I knew hated them, but his g/f watched them so he'd seen some, he made an awful comment about some weird gay thing they might do (it wasn't clear to me if it was meant about their potentially being gay, it was about helping each other do something, and it was a gross thing to say). It seems a strong reaction when you could just find them a bit annoying.

(bolded by me)

I've always seen this as a case of not only (potentially subconscious) homophobia but also misogyny. As proven by any react video ever, they generally come across as something that teenage girls would love, and as we know, anything that teenage girls love becomes stigmatised.

I think you're spot on. As soon as something is teenage girl coded, everyone starts shitting on it, based not on it's own merit, but on the fact that if girls like it, it must not be very deep. It's recently happened with Ray from SW, but going back - the Beatles were ridiculed in their time because of Beatlemania. Then Sergeant Pepper was released, men latched onto them and they were suddenly the best thing since sliced bread, and their previous albums suddenly turned out to have musical significance. I think we see this in the crew of ~~deep~~ youtubers who reject the girls who watch them. I feel like the only people who embrace the teenage girls are make up gurus and Dan and Phil.

At the same time however, this demo is highly sought after and everyone wants to sell to them, but few succeed. Why? Because usually boardrooms are populated but old men with that mentality. Dan and Phil make a great case study on how to capitalize on girls by simply being their friends and respecting their love for the product instead of demonizing them and forcibly trying to change your narrative.

[JustMe]

My opinion to any mention regarding their sexuality is and has always been that you can never say what what they should do but only accept what they choose to do,

Also hilarious meme picture that phil liked that made me laugh a lot:

[flarequake]

That reaction video, oh cringe. How can people think they're twins That comment about a Mr Bean wig on a White Walker. Ouch. Kinda funny, though. What is it about men not liking them, though? It seems so common, there are so many kids and more women than men in the phandom, always the ones who leap to hate them are straight (I guess) adult men. I don't know if there's anything deep to it or is it just cos they're not macho, but queer and cute with it? Is it a homophobic thing, even if people don't realise it, or is not liking them and their humour not that deep? Young guy I knew hated them, but his g/f watched them so he'd seen some, he made an awful comment about some weird gay thing they might do (it wasn't clear to me if it was meant about their potentially being gay, it was about helping each other do something, and it was a gross thing to say). It seems a strong reaction when you could just find them a bit annoying.

(bolded by me)

I've always seen this as a case of not only (potentially subconscious) homophobia but also misogyny. As proven by any react video ever, they generally come across as something that teenage girls would love, and as we know, anything that teenage girls love becomes stigmatised.

I think you're spot on. As soon as something is teenage girl coded, everyone starts shitting on it, based not on it's own merit, but on the fact that if girls like it, it must not be very deep. It's recently happened with Ray from SW, but going back - the Beatles were ridiculed in their time because of Beatlemania. Then Sergeant Pepper was released, men latched onto them and they were suddenly the best thing since sliced bread, and their previous albums suddenly turned out to have musical significance. I think we see this in the crew of ~~deep~~ youtubers who reject the girls who watch them. I feel like the only people who embrace the teenage girls are make up gurus and Dan and Phil.

At the same time however, this demo is highly sought after and everyone wants to sell to them, but few succeed. Why? Because usually boardrooms are populated but old men with that mentality. Dan and Phil make a great case study on how to capitalize on girls by simply being their friends and respecting their love for the product instead of demonizing them and forcibly trying to change your narrative.

I love this. I thought people like Caspar and Joe have a lot of girls watching, but their laddish antics probably do get more boys, though still maybe not the same ratio as Pewdiepie. The sexism is horrible and you're right, they're stupid cutting off a huge avenue for profit (as does anyone who outright insults the phandom). I wonder how much this is part of people thinking Dan and Phil have been very clever marketers of their content. Also how much they consciously targeted things like Dan's relatable-to-tumblr videos and Phil's cute-and-fluffy act. I was thinking about that the other day.

[annetamiau]

That reaction video, oh cringe. How can people think they're twins That comment about a Mr Bean wig on a White Walker. Ouch. Kinda funny, though. What is it about men not liking them, though? It seems so common, there are so many kids and more women than men in the phandom, always the ones who leap to hate them are straight (I guess) adult men. I don't know if there's anything deep to it or is it just cos they're not macho, but queer and cute with it? Is it a homophobic thing, even if people don't realise it, or is not liking them and their humour not that deep? Young guy I knew hated them, but his g/f watched them so he'd seen some, he made an awful comment about some weird gay thing they might do (it wasn't clear to me if it was meant about their potentially being gay, it was about helping each other do something, and it was a gross thing to say). It seems a strong reaction when you could just find them a bit annoying.

(bolded by me)

I've always seen this as a case of not only (potentially subconscious) homophobia but also misogyny. As proven by any react video ever, they generally come across as something that teenage girls would love, and as we know, anything that teenage girls love becomes stigmatised.

I think you're spot on. As soon as something is teenage girl coded, everyone starts shitting on it, based not on it's own merit, but on the fact that if girls like it, it must not be very deep. It's recently happened with Ray from SW, but going back - the Beatles were ridiculed in their time because of Beatlemania. Then Sergeant Pepper was released, men latched onto them and they were suddenly the best thing since sliced bread, and their previous albums suddenly turned out to have musical significance. I think we see this in the crew of ~~deep~~ youtubers who reject the girls who watch them. I feel like the only people who embrace the teenage girls are make up gurus and Dan and Phil.

At the same time however, this demo is highly sought after and everyone wants to sell to them, but few succeed. Why? Because usually boardrooms are populated but old men with that mentality. Dan and Phil make a great case study on how to capitalize on girls by simply being their friends and respecting their love for the product instead of demonizing them and forcibly trying to change your narrative.

While I agree with you, I think it's sometimes ~not that deep~. The following paragraphs will include a lot of projecting and personal experience, but I'd like to share them anyway:

My younger brother, who I sometimes force to watch deppy with me, is a stereotypical straight male in his early twenties. He doesn't like Dan and Phil at all. He finds Dan loud and obnoxious, and he thinks deppy's videos are way too overacted (what we here call persona-heavy, I guess). My brother is very into video games, and he thinks Dan and Phil are very bad at them and doesn't understand how their gaming channel is so successful. He’s also very surprised by the huge amount of people subscribed to their main channels, considering they (especially Dan) upload very seldom.

Safe to say, my brother doesn't care about Dan and Phil's chemistry in the slightest, and I think that's one of the reasons why some people just don’t get how they’ve made it to the top. Their chemistry is, in my opinion, their main strength, what really sets them apart. Even I find their content average (meaning, Dan and Phil do what every other youtuber does, which is completely fine), but I (contrary to my brother) am very invested in their chemistry, and this makes their videos appealing to me.

I'm sure my brother’s opinion is not influenced by homophobia because I'm in the LGBT spectrum (and so are other close relatives), and my brother is really supportive. He also never asked who watches them, I'm sure the fact that their main demographic is teenage girls never even occurred to him because he’s not particularly into sociology (even I didn’t know that Dan and Phil’s target audience were teenage girls when I started to watch them!).

What I’m trying to say is that I understand where my brother is coming from, I find his reasons valid. I’m not saying homophobia or misogyny have nothing to with how men perceive them, in fact as I said I agree with you, but sometimes it can be much simpler. I showed some Dan and Phil videos (the festive DITL and the Japan haul) to two of my female friends (mid to late twenties) and they had the same reaction as my brother. They just didn’t care about their chemistry and found the videos boring after two minutes.

[captainspacecoat]

fancybum, twix and sparkle, just wanted to say I really enjoyed all your posts re: coming out, and I think you're all spot on. I think society has such a rigid understanding of 'the closet', whereby unless/until you make an explicit statement regarding your non-heterosexuality (e.g. "I am *insert sexuality other than straight here*) then you must be straight. As though if you're not straight, you're either "closeted" (i.e. "pretending to be straight") or "out" (have explicitly stated your sexuality publicly), when it's so much more complex than that. While Dan and Phil haven't explicitly labelled their sexualities since 2009, Dan in particular (and also Phil to a far lesser extent) has clearly made a conscious effort to be read as not-straight, and as far as I'm concerned, when people still refuse to recognise this the pressure shouldn't be on Dan (or Phil) to present his sexuality in a way that people deem indisputably recognisable, but rather it should be on society to adjust perceptions of sexuality and remove the burden of performing sexuality in such a way that meets the standards set by straight people. (also obviously those standards aren't only upheld by straight people, they've become so ingrained in society that they're totally normalised and perpetuated by all, and also i'm definitely not trying to presume the sexuality of anyone posting on this forum, just as a disclaimer)

re: moving train - I personally don't think the wifi thing is a definite sign of moving, given that I have the most unreliable wifi of all time, which constantly flits between working perfectly and then suddenly dropping out for weeks at a time. So it's perfectly plausible to me that their wifi could have been working fine up until recently. Having said that, moving theories fuel me and I am so here for them, so definitely hope I'm proven wrong and they really are moving.

re: golf vid - v cute, v good, great bants, love that series

Also hilarious meme picture that phil liked that made me laugh a lot:

oh my god, that is incredible

[simmehchan]

[Offtopic]Sorry, I don't know if this is the right place!

Every time I go onto a new page in this topic, I get a Malwarebytes warning that it's blocked something from the Domain "image.ibb.co". I''m not sure if it's someone's banner or profile pic, but it's only happening since the switchover to the new host.
[/Offtopic]

[drearyquery]

What I don't get is how people see their audience as teenage girls just from a few videos. Is it bc they aren't uber masculine? Is it because they're 'cute emos'? I didn't pick up on a distinct demographic until I came to the phandom side of things.

I definitely agree that their chemistry is a huge part of their audience. And a lot of that is due to shipping/speculation. I personally am a teenage girl (the horror!1!1) and I first just casually watched Phil, and then Pinof, and then a few gaming videos, and then I read their whole background (and maybe some phanfics) and now....

Like personally the only reason I'm in the phandom and not a casual viewer is bc their chemistry.

While I do think some people don't like bc they don't see chemistry or for just natural preferences I do see definite misogyny in guys reactions to them. When people react deppy's audience is an immediate turnoff but I don't see that for female creators who have similar audiences. Take Zoella: as a beauty guru her audience is mostly young women and people recognize that. But when reacting she gets more "nice but not my thing" over dnp reactions of "ew they're annoying I guess girls like them?". I don't know if I'm overthinking but that difference to me seems misogynistic if not intentionally so.

[obscureDnPreference]

Let me just contribute by saying I had a dream/idea when I was falling asleep whereby Dan releases a video with the title "I GOT MARRIED!" and in this video he treats it like a typical Reasons Why Dan's A Fail, never mentioning who he actually got married to, just giving us details about the reception and about all the times he coughed in a relative's face or fell down the aisle And then, at the very end, he looks straight in the camera and mimics, "But Dan, who did you get married to?". He laughs and goes "Who do you bloody think?"

Roll end screen and boom, subtle double coming out.

EDIT: I'm finding it really hard to change my avatar. As in, it won't let me Help??

This made my freaking morning. Whatever train this is, I'm jumping on it and holding on for dear life.

[relatablemood]

Let me just contribute by saying I had a dream/idea when I was falling asleep whereby Dan releases a video with the title "I GOT MARRIED!" and in this video he treats it like a typical Reasons Why Dan's A Fail, never mentioning who he actually got married to, just giving us details about the reception and about all the times he coughed in a relative's face or fell down the aisle And then, at the very end, he looks straight in the camera and mimics, "But Dan, who did you get married to?". He laughs and goes "Who do you bloody think?"

Roll end screen and boom, subtle double coming out.

EDIT: I'm finding it really hard to change my avatar. As in, it won't let me Help??

This made my freaking morning. Whatever train this is, I'm jumping on it and holding on for dear life.

Anytime

Let's be honest though, if Dan and Phil came out, they would never show them kissing or anything. My cynical ass thinks they would give us the bare minimum (ie, we got married, have the new forever home) both because they're private people and also because of the backlash/insane fangirls fetishizing them.

[somethingsketchy]

That reaction video, oh cringe. How can people think they're twins That comment about a Mr Bean wig on a White Walker. Ouch. Kinda funny, though. What is it about men not liking them, though? It seems so common, there are so many kids and more women than men in the phandom, always the ones who leap to hate them are straight (I guess) adult men. I don't know if there's anything deep to it or is it just cos they're not macho, but queer and cute with it? Is it a homophobic thing, even if people don't realise it, or is not liking them and their humour not that deep? Young guy I knew hated them, but his g/f watched them so he'd seen some, he made an awful comment about some weird gay thing they might do (it wasn't clear to me if it was meant about their potentially being gay, it was about helping each other do something, and it was a gross thing to say). It seems a strong reaction when you could just find them a bit annoying.

(bolded by me)

I've always seen this as a case of not only (potentially subconscious) homophobia but also misogyny. As proven by any react video ever, they generally come across as something that teenage girls would love, and as we know, anything that teenage girls love becomes stigmatised.

I think you're spot on. As soon as something is teenage girl coded, everyone starts shitting on it, based not on it's own merit, but on the fact that if girls like it, it must not be very deep. It's recently happened with Ray from SW, but going back - the Beatles were ridiculed in their time because of Beatlemania. Then Sergeant Pepper was released, men latched onto them and they were suddenly the best thing since sliced bread, and their previous albums suddenly turned out to have musical significance. I think we see this in the crew of ~~deep~~ youtubers who reject the girls who watch them. I feel like the only people who embrace the teenage girls are make up gurus and Dan and Phil.

At the same time however, this demo is highly sought after and everyone wants to sell to them, but few succeed. Why? Because usually boardrooms are populated but old men with that mentality. Dan and Phil make a great case study on how to capitalize on girls by simply being their friends and respecting their love for the product instead of demonizing them and forcibly trying to change your narrative.

I love this. I thought people like Caspar and Joe have a lot of girls watching, but their laddish antics probably do get more boys, though still maybe not the same ratio as Pewdiepie. The sexism is horrible and you're right, they're stupid cutting off a huge avenue for profit (as does anyone who outright insults the phandom). I wonder how much this is part of people thinking Dan and Phil have been very clever marketers of their content. Also how much they consciously targeted things like Dan's relatable-to-tumblr videos and Phil's cute-and-fluffy act. I was thinking about that the other day.

I've always been under the impression that both Joe and Caspar, but especially Joe, have a large teenage girl following, although it's true that they probably also attract significantly more boys and men than D&P. Like, I can't see Joe regularly collabing with Zoella and having joined merch with her as anything else than targeting teenage girls. The thing that sets J&C apart from D&P to me is their depictions of masculinity (which was already discussed a couple of threads back, so I'm not going in too deep). J&C can't really be called macho, but D&P are still more effeminate than them. Because effeminacy is usually sadly linked to homosexuality, it makes me think that a big reason for why D&P are shunned for having a teen girl audience more than J&C is definitely homophobia.

I've also been thinking about how much and when D&P started to target their content to teenage girls. As far as I know, Phil's pre-Dan audience used to be more evenly split, but I remember seeing a Dan video from 2009 where he acknowledges that his audience consisted mostly of young girls already at that point. (I can't remember what the video was called, but Dan draws a beard on his face and does "manly" things in it in a jokey attempt to attract male viewers.) It gave me the impression that they already had a young female audience when they started to consciously target their content, whenever that was.

That reaction video, oh cringe. How can people think they're twins That comment about a Mr Bean wig on a White Walker. Ouch. Kinda funny, though. What is it about men not liking them, though? It seems so common, there are so many kids and more women than men in the phandom, always the ones who leap to hate them are straight (I guess) adult men. I don't know if there's anything deep to it or is it just cos they're not macho, but queer and cute with it? Is it a homophobic thing, even if people don't realise it, or is not liking them and their humour not that deep? Young guy I knew hated them, but his g/f watched them so he'd seen some, he made an awful comment about some weird gay thing they might do (it wasn't clear to me if it was meant about their potentially being gay, it was about helping each other do something, and it was a gross thing to say). It seems a strong reaction when you could just find them a bit annoying.

(bolded by me)

I've always seen this as a case of not only (potentially subconscious) homophobia but also misogyny. As proven by any react video ever, they generally come across as something that teenage girls would love, and as we know, anything that teenage girls love becomes stigmatised.

I think you're spot on. As soon as something is teenage girl coded, everyone starts shitting on it, based not on it's own merit, but on the fact that if girls like it, it must not be very deep. It's recently happened with Ray from SW, but going back - the Beatles were ridiculed in their time because of Beatlemania. Then Sergeant Pepper was released, men latched onto them and they were suddenly the best thing since sliced bread, and their previous albums suddenly turned out to have musical significance. I think we see this in the crew of ~~deep~~ youtubers who reject the girls who watch them. I feel like the only people who embrace the teenage girls are make up gurus and Dan and Phil.

At the same time however, this demo is highly sought after and everyone wants to sell to them, but few succeed. Why? Because usually boardrooms are populated but old men with that mentality. Dan and Phil make a great case study on how to capitalize on girls by simply being their friends and respecting their love for the product instead of demonizing them and forcibly trying to change your narrative.

While I agree with you, I think it's sometimes ~not that deep~. The following paragraphs will include a lot of projecting and personal experience, but I'd like to share them anyway:

My younger brother, who I sometimes force to watch deppy with me, is a stereotypical straight male in his early twenties. He doesn't like Dan and Phil at all. He finds Dan loud and obnoxious, and he thinks deppy's videos are way too overacted (what we here call persona-heavy, I guess). My brother is very into video games, and he thinks Dan and Phil are very bad at them and doesn't understand how their gaming channel is so successful. He’s also very surprised by the huge amount of people subscribed to their main channels, considering they (especially Dan) upload very seldom.

Safe to say, my brother doesn't care about Dan and Phil's chemistry in the slightest, and I think that's one of the reasons why some people just don’t get how they’ve made it to the top. Their chemistry is, in my opinion, their main strength, what really sets them apart. Even I find their content average (meaning, Dan and Phil do what every other youtuber does, which is completely fine), but I (contrary to my brother) am very invested in their chemistry, and this makes their videos appealing to me.

I'm sure my brother’s opinion is not influenced by homophobia because I'm in the LGBT spectrum (and so are other close relatives), and my brother is really supportive. He also never asked who watches them, I'm sure the fact that their main demographic is teenage girls never even occurred to him because he’s not particularly into sociology (even I didn’t know that Dan and Phil’s target audience were teenage girls when I started to watch them!).

What I’m trying to say is that I understand where my brother is coming from, I find his reasons valid. I’m not saying homophobia or misogyny have nothing to with how men perceive them, in fact as I said I agree with you, but sometimes it can be much simpler. I showed some Dan and Phil videos (the festive DITL and the Japan haul) to two of my female friends (mid to late twenties) and they had the same reaction as my brother. They just didn’t care about their chemistry and found the videos boring after two minutes.

It might be my tendency to overanalyse and/or my being a sociology student, but I just can't see anything as "not that deep" anymore. Our thoughts and actions are deeply affected by social structures and norms in ways that we are mostly unaware of. You raise a great point in that there are surely multiple reasons for why someone might not like D&P and their videos, but I still wouldn't be one hundred-percent sure that people's opinions aren't affected by misogyny or homophobia at least on a subconscious level. I mean, I regularly notice instances of my actions having been affected by misogyny even though I'm a woman myself. Even after years of conscious work trying to let go internalised misogyny, I'm still not ready because misogyny is so rooted in our society that trying to get rid of it feels like swimming upriver.

[jaej]

as a guy-ish type of person, i just don't like phil or his content because i can't relate to it. i watch youtubers i feel like i can connect to or could have a discussion with or be friends with irl and i don't see that with phil because i just see him as... staged? idk. as a 12 year old i could, as a 15 year old i could, but at 20 i just couldn't imagine interacting with him irl. with dan i see it a lot more, and not out of being more masculine or hetero

my other guy and guy-ish friends seem to have pretty similar views on it too. it's not that it's because the majority of viewers aren't in the same demographic, a lot of people i speak to just feel it's too forced to make themselves fit the ideal for that demographic and it comes off a bit stiff and fake. especially since a lot of them did like d+p a few years back. a very "this isn't for you, we have made this for other people" feeling

however, a lot of my queer guy/guy-ish friends avoid them because of the phandom, which i've done myself at times. less of a "i don't like this because there's teenage girls" and more "large groups of teenage girls who stan men who do a lot of fanservice tend to have icky views on queer men and so i want to avoid this space". that's my guess on why guy fans are a lot less vocal, anyway

[malday]

[fancybum]

Other people have said better things already that I won’t quote to not drag into my mess of inarticulateness when it comes to this subject, but blanket thank you and oh god bullet points are my kink.

But the shame thing. really rustles me. I’m just beating a dead horse now, but: they’re not ambiguous. Certainly not to the extent it would take for people to think there’s just no indication that they’re not straight and to be frustrated in some way by that. Because if you’re paying attention, there’s so much there to literally spell it out and if you’re not paying attention then why would you care. And tied into that, for those people paying attention and who are overly invested, they know D&P’s history and the foundation that makes them being in a relationship with each other a likely reality (or at least more likely than other general fan ships; if you're not fully on board, there's your disclaimer). But that likely reality exists in the private background of what they choose to put in videos and choose to share of their off-internet lives. And for years they've straight up said they aren't interested in sharing relationships online for privacy reasons and because of the unfortunate examples of what happens when you do (Anthony/Kalel, Charles/Alli, e.t.c.). That's a hard line they've clearly and consistently put in the sand without wavering. So there's really no ambiguity with how far they're interested in labelling their relationship online or with what part of their relationship they're comfortable allowing viewers to engage with.

So what we end up with is not a lie, we just get a facet of the truth. Same with sexualities: if they don't want a label out there or to explicitly acknowledge it in a way that would satisfy 100% of the people looking for something more definitive than they've already been given, that's not a lie or being ambiguous, it's displaying a facet of the truth in a way they're most comfortable with. Tying not having enough of their truth to satisfy your own curiosity (because that's all it ever comes down to if you don't want to be that person and demand everybody with any kind of audience be out and loud and proud for the good of society at the expense of their own personal desires/comforts) to shame is just?? manipulative and ugh.

First, to assume it’s there and it’s a factor. Is horrifically rude at best. But follow the thought: what if you’re right? What’s the intent there? To shame somebody for feeling shame or for ‘having hangups’ about something the world has overwhelmingly raised us all to be uncomfortable with as a baseline to start? What exactly does that do and where’s the heart in it? It’s just some gross ultimatum: tell the "truth" (to my definition and my standards) and stop being ambiguous (by my definition), or else you’re ashamed. Tell me what I want to know or else you have a problem with yourself and let me judge you for it. That is so beyond gross to me. Ok I'll leave the dead horse alone now. But really.

[yellowsubmarine]

A gif of yourself? Another inside joke or reference? I'm lost

[chiccola]

A gif of yourself? Another inside joke or reference? I'm lost

I'm really confused as well, I don't think I'm getting the reference...
My only thought was Phil's obsession with pumpkin spice lattes, but how does that make HIM the dancing skeleton? Who knows... :

[papierklemmen]

A gif of yourself? Another inside joke or reference? I'm lost

I'm really confused as well, I don't think I'm getting the reference...
My only thought was Phil's obsession with pumpkin spice lattes, but how does that make HIM the dancing skeleton? Who knows... :

If I remember correctly, Phil joked in some vid that the pumpkin guy is him. The same joke was also referenced in the "quizzes about myself" video, or whatever it was called, during one of the quizzes (Phil or Pumpkin Spice Latte).

[liola]

A gif of yourself? Another inside joke or reference? I'm lost

I'm really confused as well, I don't think I'm getting the reference...
My only thought was Phil's obsession with pumpkin spice lattes, but how does that make HIM the dancing skeleton? Who knows... :

I thought it referenced Phil being super pale and very skinny aka a skeleton and also loving PSL so much he turned into a pumpkin... but that's a reach. I just love when the interact on twitter, very nostalgia also loved how Phil didn't even acknowledge it lmao

Meanwhile, his like of the Phan-meme is already my favorite thing of the entire day

[Birdie]

I've always been under the impression that both Joe and Caspar, but especially Joe, have a large teenage girl following, although it's true that they probably also attract significantly more boys and men than D&P. Like, I can't see Joe regularly collabing with Zoella and having joined merch with her as anything else than targeting teenage girls. The thing that sets J&C apart from D&P to me is their depictions of masculinity (which was already discussed a couple of threads back, so I'm not going in too deep). J&C can't really be called macho, but D&P are still more effeminate than them. Because effeminacy is usually sadly linked to homosexuality, it makes me think that a big reason for why D&P are shunned for having a teen girl audience more than J&C is definitely homophobia.

Great points! I think it's literally all of the above because they're all linked. A toxic mix of society's "rules" for how men are allowed to behave, misogyny and certainly homophobia to some extend. As we've already discussed, deppy both don't really fit the bill when it comes to typical masculinity and I think a lot of straight cis men have issues with internalised gender roles here. "They don't act manly, if I like them that means that I might also not be perceived as masculine, this is not good", that kind of thought process. That's what's so toxic about that kind of masculinity. It's inherently misogynistic because interest in feminine coded stuff is always seen as worth less than interest in masculine coded stuff or even as funny/shameful. Not only are Dan & Phil as a brand feminine coded (Loads of teenage girls like them, so I can't like them as a man!) but they both don't exactly act hyper-masculine (as discussed before). And yeah, internalised homophobic tendencies also play into this, I think, since for many people male queerness is linked to feminine coded behaviour like you said and there we go again.

J&C aren't exactly hyper-masculine either but they portray as typical lads: Boyish, funny, somewhat rude. They're "typical boys" so it's okay to like them. But Dan and Phil don't do that. They don't shy away from feminine coded stuff at all. When your typical bro youtubers do make-up challenges there's usually a lot of "Lol, me wearing make-up, I would never, haha, but if it's for a video..." which basically affirms the viewer that they're totally not into make-up, it's just for fun. But deppy don't do that kind of thing. The make-up challenge on Dan's channel is funny because of how bad they both end up looking, them wearing make-up is not inherently funny, and I think that's the big difference. Like... your usual male youtuber will hold up some mascara and pretend he doesn't even know what it's called or what it's for. And then you have Dan "That's not the blusher, Phil... It's called contouring, Phil" Howell just not giving a damn.

They just do whatever they like even if it's feminine coded and I think that "scares" a lot of male viewers away, that kind of confidence that goes way beyond what gender roles "allow" men to do. It's hard to explain what I mean right now because apparently my English stops working everytime I leave the UK so I hope this makes at least some sense. I basically agree with somethingsketchy and tried to explain why, I guess.

[hello9217]

What I don't get is how people see their audience as teenage girls just from a few videos. Is it bc they aren't uber masculine? Is it because they're 'cute emos'? I didn't pick up on a distinct demographic until I came to the phandom side of things.

I definitely agree that their chemistry is a huge part of their audience. And a lot of that is due to shipping/speculation. I personally am a teenage girl (the horror!1!1) and I first just casually watched Phil, and then Pinof, and then a few gaming videos, and then I read their whole background (and maybe some phanfics) and now....

Like personally the only reason I'm in the phandom and not a casual viewer is bc their chemistry.

While I do think some people don't like bc they don't see chemistry or for just natural preferences I do see definite misogyny in guys reactions to them. When people react deppy's audience is an immediate turnoff but I don't see that for female creators who have similar audiences. Take Zoella: as a beauty guru her audience is mostly young women and people recognize that. But when reacting she gets more "nice but not my thing" over dnp reactions of "ew they're annoying I guess girls like them?". I don't know if I'm overthinking but that difference to me seems misogynistic if not intentionally so.

Yeah I see what your saying but even when people question her audience she always argues that despite what people think her audience consists of people mainly over 18 and I remember Joe being proud once when stating that more boys were starting to watch him. It's like no matter what people disregard young peoples preference in things, especially young females-saying that they are in-experinced and are acting mainly off of hormones. Deppy are some of the only youtubers I know who never dismiss having a young audience and just proudly accept it. Even though I'm 20 I know that if I was young I would have loved to watch people who didn't just cast off any of my thoughts based on my age, which is why I think young girls tend to watch them.

[sparkle]

[Offtopic]
on the topic of Phil being a pumpkin.

Does anyone know how long until PSL season because I swear to god I am so ready to spend all of my money in Starbucks - I do not care if it makes the epitome of a basic white girl, that shits good.
[/Offtopic]

[scientia]

[Offtopic]
on the topic of Phil being a pumpkin.

Does anyone know how long until PSL season because I swear to god I am so ready to spend all of my money in Starbucks - I do not care if it makes the epitome of a basic white girl, that shits good.
[/Offtopic]

saaaame, I've started stalking the sbux website to see when The Season starts

[pastelspectre]

just a small comment i wanted to add (i'm not very good with all this serious conversation so i usually lurk and read other peoples responses), i have been made fun of before for liking dip n dot bc theyre mostly seen as youtubers for young teens or teen girls. (which i am not either of those lol), and it sucks because sometimes whenever i mention i like deppy, people will like.. either, not mind, or hate me for it. i've literally gotten blocked, defriended and just made fun of in general just cause i like deppy. and it sucks, cause a lot of people just see them as youtubers that young girls watch. but thats not the case. :/

edit: sorry if this was all over the place i just wanted to add my two cents even if its not that good