Dan & Phil Part 56: Phanthony! at the Disco

[bee]

Well that's not scary at all or anything
I've been listening to some weird paranormal podcast thing and I'm already feeling antsy so errrr

[fancybum]

Oh shit, his second attic wife is making a break for it.

(ooh bee can you give me the name of the podcast? I want some spooky listening..)

[Ewok]

An apartment with a skylight? nice. Phil is back to his tour through pictures.

Unless they're in a studio/office somewhere working on their calendar still?

[alittledizzy]

On assumptions affecting people's views on Dan and Phil -

To be honest, I think the assumptions that come into play the most here are more based off of Dan and Phil's fans than really much that they do.

Heteronormativity probably does play a role in people believing whether or not they're together, like yeah people probably wouldn't view them the same way if they were a man and a woman, but that's not really the main reason people don't believe they're in a relationship, and that's the way their shippers behave.

From what I've seen, people who haven't researched anything about their relationship see two guys who make videos together who haven't said they're in a relationship, and millions of people fainting every time they glance at each other. They assume that's it's just the same old fetishization of m/m relationships, and there's nothing more to it. They don't think there's any actual proof other than "dan looked at phil #phanconfirmed."

Yes, this summarizes what I thought when I first started paying attention to the phandom. In an earlier post I went into detail about what I thought when I was just barely a casual viewer and only watched DINOF occasionally, but this pretty much summarizes how I felt when I first started paying attention to the phandom from that place of casual viewership.

Ooh, I actually feel like this perfectly exemplifies my original point - that because it's two men, a situation is read differently than if it were a man and a woman. If you came across a man and a woman that made videos together that had a fanbase that treated them as if they were a couple and had been living together with a lack of other significant others for as long as Dan and Phil have - then I don't think most people's gut reaction would be, "Mmm, probably just teenagers/women fetishizing." Because it's two men, people come at it differently than if it were a man and women - without bothering to look further into anything to confirm their assumption

Also, Phil is super pretty and I am here for him taking pics at creative new angles.

[bee]

Oh shit, his second attic wife is making a break for it.

(ooh bee can you give me the name of the podcast? I want some spooky listening..)

Damn, second attic wife growing claws, then escape is probably best.

(The podcast's called The Black Tapes! I'm not sure yet if I like it, but I'm half an episode in! )

[Lain]

(ooh bee can you give me the name of the podcast? I want some spooky listening..)

I just logged in to ask this, so, seconding!

fancybum, if you want another rec, my favourite spooky podcast is The NoSleep Podcast. A lot of fantastic writer's are featured and the vocal performances are top-notch.

[mathsniel]

(ooh bee can you give me the name of the podcast? I want some spooky listening..)

You've already had another rec so I thought I'd quickly jump in and mention my fave - a podcast called Darkest Night which has a brilliant storyline and each episode plays with different fears, so (I find) you never reach the point of adjusting to the creepy (x, x). (Lee Pace also narrates it which is always a win imo).

[fancybum]

Damn, second attic wife growing claws, then escape is probably best.

(The podcast's called The Black Tapes! I'm not sure yet if I like it, but I'm half an episode in! )

I just logged in to ask this, so, seconding!

fancybum, if you want another rec, my favourite spooky podcast is The NoSleep Podcast. A lot of fantastic writer's are featured and the vocal performances are top-notch.

Yay, thank you both! I want to switch out all the true crime for some festive spoops instead this month ;ghost;

edit: and thanks mathsniel! Lee Pace = sold! I'll check all these out (no judging, I do a lot of commuting..)

[Birdie]

While I 100% agree (obviously) that calling someone homophobic because they don't ship a certain ship is wrong, I don't think that's what we're saying. Because we need to consider context here; we're saying that the reason a lot of Deppy's interactions are read the way they are is because of either (or both) heteronormativity and subconscious homophobia.

Yeah, that's why I said I hadn't seen it on here but in the phandom in general. IDB is a great little corner of the phandom with lots of amazing members, that's why I'm here and trying to stay out of the Tumblr phandom these past few months.

I think that some of the things they do which are read as romantic shouldn't be read as romantic—sharing a bed on holiday, touching each other momentarily, etc. However some things they do which aren't read as romantic by casual viewers is definitely heteronormativity, because imagine if they were a man and a woman. For example, the way they look at each other and how soft they are around each other, how close they physically are when they're just casually sitting, the kind of gooey not-quite-platonic things they say about each other.

The thing is, I wouldn't label these things romantic with a man and a woman either. That's actually my whole point since that's also pretty heteronormative, assuming that a man and a woman must be romantic because they're very close. My point is that, yes, these gestures might be romantic. But they don't have to be. For me, personally, the line between platonic and romantic interactions is where the inividual people draw them. I think that's why I'm agnostic. Deppy's interactions could well be romantic, of course I see that. But I have no idea if they're really romantic, if that's what deppy see them as, so I'm basically the shrug emoji about their relationship, waiting for them to clear it up once and for all. Which will probably never happen.

Just to make it clear: I agree that most people probably view two men differently than a man and a woman in the same situation and that sucks. But I don't think that's true for everyone who doesn't necessarily sees their behaviour as romantic.

[Catallena]

Okay so, I have a theory.
(This is probably just wishful thinking but whatever)

I was checking The Apprentice Twitter and I notice that they are following someone a little strange, Dan. Now I'm thinking, this is a little weird, since when has Dan expressed interest in the apprentice?

But, The Apprentice has had a YouTube episode the past (2?) years, where they have invited youtubers on.

Now I'm not saying that Dan is going going on The Apprentice or that it's produced by the BBC with whom he has links with. I'm also not saying that he was invited to be on Get me out of here and is it such a stretch he'd be invited on another reality show.

(I'm also not saying that they might film in March (I don't know for certain) , no of course I'm not saying that)

So now I've got my hopes to high and am prepared to get them crushed.

Was this a recent follow? Dan and Phil were involved in a promotional video for The Apprentice in 2013.

...How have I never seen this. I feel like a fake fan.
I think it is recent, on mobile he's at the top and (i think) they're not following Phil. I don't think it will happen, but i'm still gonna hope

Mobile puts the people you also follow at the top when you look at someone else's follows. Maybe you don't follow Phil then?

I went looking on the desktop version, the BBC Apprentice account follows both D&P and Radio 1 is listed right after them. They're also nowhere near the top for me. So this happened quite a while ago I think.

But never give up on your dreams yo

[freesocks]

On assumptions affecting people's views on Dan and Phil -

To be honest, I think the assumptions that come into play the most here are more based off of Dan and Phil's fans than really much that they do.

Heteronormativity probably does play a role in people believing whether or not they're together, like yeah people probably wouldn't view them the same way if they were a man and a woman, but that's not really the main reason people don't believe they're in a relationship, and that's the way their shippers behave.

From what I've seen, people who haven't researched anything about their relationship see two guys who make videos together who haven't said they're in a relationship, and millions of people fainting every time they glance at each other. They assume that's it's just the same old fetishization of m/m relationships, and there's nothing more to it. They don't think there's any actual proof other than "dan looked at phil #phanconfirmed."

Yes, this summarizes what I thought when I first started paying attention to the phandom. In an earlier post I went into detail about what I thought when I was just barely a casual viewer and only watched DINOF occasionally, but this pretty much summarizes how I felt when I first started paying attention to the phandom from that place of casual viewership.

Ooh, I actually feel like this perfectly exemplifies my original point - that because it's two men, a situation is read differently than if it were a man and a woman. If you came across a man and a woman that made videos together that had a fanbase that treated them as if they were a couple and had been living together with a lack of other significant others for as long as Dan and Phil have - then I don't think most people's gut reaction would be, "Mmm, probably just teenagers/women fetishizing." Because it's two men, people come at it differently than if it were a man and women - without bothering to look further into anything to confirm their assumption

Ahhh, I see what you are saying now. Well, when I was really a casual DINOF viewer, I didn't see much of Phil, didn't know whether they had girlfriends/boyfriends or not, etc, so I really didn't see anything to look into, but I agree with you that when I did see them together, if they were a man and a woman, I might have made more relationship assumptions, as I am sure many other people would too (but I can only really speak for myself from my own experience). I think that there is another layer here though when it comes to the fetishizing of gay relationships by teenagers/women and I personally find it uncomfortable and objectifying. I'm not saying that is what is going on here with regards to D&P (definitely not on this board, but there is definitely A LOT of it on YouTube/Tumblr/Twitter), but having seen that whole phenomenon before and knowing that I found it unsettling, it just made me not want to look further into anything regarding Dan or Phil. I don't think I'm articulating this well, but I guess I am trying to say that while I fully acknowledge making heteronormative assumptions, it isn't discomfort with gay relationships that made me not want to look further/question those assumptions, but rather discomfort with the fetishization of gay relationships. I would feel equally uncomfortable watching Rose and Rosie if their comment section was filled with teenage boys/men fetishizing their relationship. Hopefully this makes sense.

[freesocks]

I think that some of the things they do which are read as romantic shouldn't be read as romantic—sharing a bed on holiday, touching each other momentarily, etc. However some things they do which aren't read as romantic by casual viewers is definitely heteronormativity, because imagine if they were a man and a woman. For example, the way they look at each other and how soft they are around each other, how close they physically are when they're just casually sitting, the kind of gooey not-quite-platonic things they say about each other.

The thing is, I wouldn't label these things romantic with a man and a woman either. That's actually my whole point since that's also pretty heteronormative, assuming that a man and a woman must be romantic because they're very close. My point is that, yes, these gestures might be romantic. But they don't have to be. For me, personally, the line between platonic and romantic interactions is where the inividual people draw them. I think that's why I'm agnostic. Deppy's interactions could well be romantic, of course I see that. But I have no idea if they're really romantic, if that's what deppy see them as, so I'm basically the shrug emoji about their relationship, waiting for them to clear it up once and for all. Which will probably never happen.

Just to make it clear: I agree that most people probably view two men differently than a man and a woman in the same situation and that sucks. But I don't think that's true for everyone who doesn't necessarily sees their behaviour as romantic.

Yes! This is exactly how I feel as well!

(sorry for the double post)

[alittledizzy]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

[fancybum]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

It could be a row of French toast.

[confusedpanda]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

Yes! That was one of the first things i noticed! Hmm board/card game night with some pals or just them maybe? Maybe in the upstairs lounge?

[mathsniel]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

Yes! That was one of the first things i noticed! Hmm board/card game night with some pals or just them maybe? Maybe in the upstairs lounge?

I'd agree but I've been doing some fiddling with it and? I can't visualise this being a card game, in fact, it looks like it's on a shelf or something, rather than a flat surface. Maybe I'm wrong though. (It's been flipped, too).



Edit: Perhaps what I'm seeing as a separate layer is in fact a table mat. The square objects still look weird though.

[alittledizzy]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

It could be a row of French toast.

Shit. It is definitely a row of French toast.

[lurker]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

It could be a row of French toast.

Shit. It is definitely a row of French toast.

i thought his passion was waffles that phil lester sure is capricious.

[autumnhearth]

At first I thought it might be stairs, distorted by the window reflection, but now all I see are papers/cards of some sort.

However I'm more taken with Phil's pink hoodie, glasses and beginnings of a mustache.

[alch]

I can only see cards, but I feel like the table looks weirdly small? Maybe the cards are just spread out

[malday]

Does it look to anyone else like Phil might be sitting at a table, with a card game spread out in front of him?

It could be a row of French toast.

Shit. It is definitely a row of French toast.

tmw toast playing cards exist.

It looks like a row of post-it notes, or sample cards maybe?

[parallel]

I think that some of the things they do which are read as romantic shouldn't be read as romantic—sharing a bed on holiday, touching each other momentarily, etc. However some things they do which aren't read as romantic by casual viewers is definitely heteronormativity, because imagine if they were a man and a woman. For example, the way they look at each other and how soft they are around each other, how close they physically are when they're just casually sitting, the kind of gooey not-quite-platonic things they say about each other.

The thing is, I wouldn't label these things romantic with a man and a woman either. That's actually my whole point since that's also pretty heteronormative, assuming that a man and a woman must be romantic because they're very close. My point is that, yes, these gestures might be romantic. But they don't have to be. For me, personally, the line between platonic and romantic interactions is where the inividual people draw them. I think that's why I'm agnostic. Deppy's interactions could well be romantic, of course I see that. But I have no idea if they're really romantic, if that's what deppy see them as, so I'm basically the shrug emoji about their relationship, waiting for them to clear it up once and for all. Which will probably never happen.

Just to make it clear: I agree that most people probably view two men differently than a man and a woman in the same situation and that sucks. But I don't think that's true for everyone who doesn't necessarily sees their behaviour as romantic.

Of course! I'm tired right now so that probably didn't come out exactly how I meant. But I mean that casual viewers don't bat an eyelash at these things whereas they probably would if it was a man and a woman, and honestly, though it's not proof of any kind, I wouldn't read them as platonic. Sure, they're not inherently romantic either, but I think they ride that blurred line between romantic gestures and platonic gestures.

I agree with what you said about the line being where the individual puts it. There's a lot of other evidence for Deppy being romantically involved other than just how they act around each other, but without any other information, I wouldn't label their relationship either. Honestly, I don't think the distinction between a romantic and a platonic relationship is that important, especially in this context. Dan and Phil clearly love each other, regardless of whether it's romantic or platonic, and they're best friends—yes, you can be best friends with your significant other and you probably should be if it's a long-term thing. Labels are superficial at this point because whether you're a firm believer, agnostic, or anti, I think everyone can agree that Dan and Phil love each other very much and that's basically all that matters.

[captainspacecoat]

I think at the end of the day it's important to remember that we're all inherently coming at this with our own internal biases, and that's something we can't escape. I see Dan and Phil as a) not straight and b) in a relationship, and I have done since I discovered them in late 2012, and that's likely a result of me also not being straight, as well as interactions and events which I personally interpret as romantic according to my own standards and when placed in context alongside the bigger picture of Dan and Phil's 8 year relationship.

Other people won't see it that way, and while I do sometimes think people will explain away things that would otherwise be considered to imply a romantic relationship out of heteronormativity, it would be disingenuous to dismiss all ""non-shippers"" (or whatever you'd call them) as homophobic, as at the end of the day we simply do not know the objective truth. I think so long as people are approaching things rationally and respectfully, that's all that matters - regardless of what it is we each individually believe.

I do however think that, while fetishisation of m/m couples does undoubtedly happen in fandom, it is used as a dismissal of people who believe they're together far too often. People who watch Jenna and Julien or Zoe and Alfie out of a specific desire to gush over their romantic relationship moreso than any particular interest in their individual content are never judged as fetishising straight relationships. And back when Dodie and Jon seemed to have some sort of romantic relationship going on people obsessively shipped them, and no such accusations were made. But that's a conversation for another day, I'll leave it there for now.

It looks like a row of post-it notes, or sample cards maybe?

It looks like post-it notes to me, I can't really see it as anything else. Although, I'm dumb and when I first saw the photo I thought it was a weird chimney visible through the skylight and not a reflection of something inside

[sparkle]

I know I'm super late on this but HOLY SHIT THAT BLOOPERS VIDEO.

The fucking eyelash bit, like I honest to god thought they were gonna kiss or something because it was just so warm and fuzzy and intimate? It made my heart happy. They're definitely testing the boundaries because if you'd shown me that in 2013

also I showed my girlfriend Dans diss track - and she was visibly shocked and thought it was hilarious. (and we got talking and she agrees with me that Dan is likely bisexual and Phil is likely either bisexual with a strong male preference or gay - which is not something I expected her to agree with me on tbh)

[aleanna]

I think at the end of the day it's important to remember that we're all inherently coming at this with our own internal biases, and that's something we can't escape. I see Dan and Phil as a) not straight and b) in a relationship, and I have done since I discovered them in late 2012, and that's likely a result of me also not being straight, as well as interactions and events which I personally interpret as romantic according to my own standards and when placed in context alongside the bigger picture of Dan and Phil's 8 year relationship.

Other people won't see it that way, and while I do sometimes think people will explain away things that would otherwise be considered to imply a romantic relationship out of heteronormativity, it would be disingenuous to dismiss all ""non-shippers"" (or whatever you'd call them) as homophobic, as at the end of the day we simply do not know the objective truth. I think so long as people are approaching things rationally and respectfully, that's all that matters - regardless of what it is we each individually believe.

I do however think that, while fetishisation of m/m couples does undoubtedly happen in fandom, it is used as a dismissal of people who believe they're together far too often. People who watch Jenna and Julien or Zoe and Alfie out of a specific desire to gush over their romantic relationship moreso than any particular interest in their individual content are never judged as fetishising straight relationships. And back when Dodie and Jon seemed to have some sort of romantic relationship going on people obsessively shipped them, and no such accusations were made. But that's a conversation for another day, I'll leave it there for now.

It looks like a row of post-it notes, or sample cards maybe?

It looks like post-it notes to me, I can't really see it as anything else. Although, I'm dumb and when I first saw the photo I thought it was a weird chimney visible through the skylight and not a reflection of something inside

Kind of off-topic but also not: I hate when people accuse all people who read m/m romance and fanfic of fetishizing m/m relationships. I am a queer (which is the broadest label ever, but I use it because I feel it covers both my gender AND sexuality). I have read just about every kind of relationship possible. I've read romances featuring straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, transgender, and polyamorous relationships. I just hate it when people automatically assume that m/m shippers with vaginas are all problematic/homophobic. (Sorry about the rant, but this has been bothering me for years!!!)