Dan & Phil Part 86: here, queer & full of existential fear

Our two favourite full time internet nerds who never go outside!
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Can I just say, I'm really, really cringing thinking of that nanalew collab now. What happened there? Why did that happen?
queerofcups wrote:I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them?
Ha, same. I mean, it's actually not that hard to be a decent person and not out someone but I'm still surprised so many Youtube people were apparently decent people, especially way back when a lot of people weren't aware how painful forced outings are. Then again, he didn't say he was out to everyone. Might be he was only out to Youtubers he was a bit closer to (like Cat, Louise maybe, Bryony etc.) and knew he could trust. I actually don't see him telling perfect strangers after what happened with his friend from home, at least not perfect strangers with a big internet presence. His local shopkeeper seems a lot safer because even if they went on the internet like "Phil's gay, lol", who would believe them?
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I mean there's a been a lot of rumours over the years that people who kind-of-knew some youtubers or worker in that industry kind of knew about them dating/being gay, but let's be real, not even us believed those rumours, and the majority of the fandom, or at least the most vocal, always believed they were. If not even fans believe those rumours, why would someone else? It's much easier to pass it as speculation after all.

I'm also not surprised that Phil identifies as gay and not bi, I neve really got any "i'm interested in women" vibes from him (much to my sadness :cry: :cry: :cry: ) (i'm kidding btw)

It just hit me that we're going to have a full hour of SOLO Phil Q&A - a solo, out and proud Phil Q&A. I have high hopes, I can't help it not after June :wavingflag:
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As Phil promised, the tone of this video was very low-key, but I’m struck by the fact that it was nevertheless incredibly heartfelt and personal. There were several references to and stories about some deeply painful and traumatic experiences, and I find that I come out of this video with an even deeper love and admiration for Phil than I’ve ever had before. :prideheart:

This video is packed with stories that pretty directly cut to the point, so I ended up just transcribing most of the video. I’m not sorry. Here are my highlights:
  • Before the video even starts, the first thing I notice is that the thumbnail has a picture of Phil with the word “gay” and an arrow pointing to him. :prideflag:
  • [0:00] Phil starts the video out right by taking a drink from a vase large glass and saying, “Keep it low-key.” :lol:
  • [0:02] Phil says that there’s something quite “big” that he’s been meaning to tell us. He reveals that he’s been dying his hair since he was 15, his hair is actually mousy brown, it goes ginger in the sun, and he prefers it to look dark.
  • [0:17] If the thumbnail wasn’t enough, Phil says the words “I’m gay” right off the bat.
  • [0:24] Phil says that part of him just wanted to make his coming out video five seconds long, and he shows himself pulling open a closet door, saying, “Hi. I’m gay,” and pulling the closet door shut again.
  • [0:35] Phil explains why he’s making this video:
    P: But I thought it’d be nice to talk about it here because some gay people--like, most gay people--have a pretty similar story, which some people might not realize. And even if you don’t totally relate to my story, you might learn something, or change your view, or just feel like you’re not alone with something that you went through.
  • [0:50] Phil talks about how he realized he was gay and how he felt ashamed when he realized:
    P: So I’ve known I was gay since I was about 12-ish, and I think I thirst noticed--Thirst? Thirst. I think I first--Well, it was thirst--when I was on a beach, and I saw a beautiful, hot, shirtless guy walking past me with his stunning girlfriend, and I think most of my guy friends would have been like, Wow. I wanna be him, while I was like, Wow. I wanna kiss him...wait.

    P: Due to the attitudes around me in my young life, in my small, northern town, I felt a bit ashamed when I realized this, and I just thought that I’d been born wrong. And as I was starting a new school at age 12, I thought it’d be best to keep this on the DL. Just be quiet about it for now because, you know, it might be “a phase,” or I might “grow out of it.” Spoiler alert: I did not! I grew into it.
  • [1:45] After a brief rhyming musical interlude, Phil talks about what being gay as a teenager was like for him. Him talking about no one being interested in him romantically literally makes me want to cry.
    P: So fast-forward, like, age 12 to 18. I’d just pretend to like girls when my friends were talking about them. “Wow, yeah, that side-boob. It’s really great. I wish I could see more of that specific boob.”

    P: Me being a mousy brown-haired nerdy teen, no one paid that much attention to me, like, at all at school, so thankfully, my sexuality wasn’t a big issue. This helped me avoid conflict, which I appreciate, but being forced into silence and not being able to have fun or just doing all the things that my straight friends were doing made me really sad. All my friends were having first girlfriends and first kisses, and I just felt really left out and weird.

    P: I even thought if I tried to be straight, it would just magically fix me, and everything would be fine. I even had some girlfriends--some...two--for a while--a while...a week each. I mean, it didn’t last very long ‘cause when it got to the kissin’, it was pretty obvious I wasn’t interested. I think my brain was just drifting toward geography homework I hadn’t done.

    P: I missed out on a lot of life experiences, and I had all this guilt and shame about my big secret. And that made me really anxious and stressed, but it’s crazy because there’s nothing wrong with being gay! Yet you still feel really guilty about this secret that you’re keeping.

    P: I did have a few “life experiences” with some of my straight friends because we were a group of massively hormonal teens, and we would occasionally play spin-the-bottle. So they were like, “Yeah, I’ll kiss a guy to impress the girls. Not in a gay way.” And I was like, “Yeah, totally not in a gay way. Sure.”

    P: I still didn’t tell any of them, though, despite being really close friends for years and them all being super nice people. I just felt like it was such a big deal, and I didn’t know what to tell them or when or how, so I just kind of left it.
  • [3:25] Phil talks about what it was like starting college as a gay man:
    P: So I decided moving to university would be a great time to have a life reset. Totally new town, new friends, new haircuts...most of those were a mistake. And I figured a college campus would be somewhere that would be more accepting with things like LGBT societies where I thought, Ooh. There’s others..

    P: So one night after a lot of drinking, I sat down with my university housemates in the kitchen, and I just said, “I like guys.” And they were thankfully, thankfully totally cool.

    P: Uni then felt like this safe bubble--something more sturdy than a bubble...a shield. And that just gave me the freedom to experiment with this new life away from my old town and everyone I knew.
  • [4:00] Phil talks about being outed to all of his hometown friends. He is very forgiving and understanding when telling this story, but the substance of it fills me with rage and sadness. Phil puts himself out there looking for the dates and boyfriend that he couldn’t have in highschool (and, no, it’s not lame, Phil, that you preferred romance to sex), and he’s immediately punished for it! 😭
    P: I even put myself on a dating website, and, no, I’m not talking about Grindr! I wanted to go on an actual date. Does that make me lame?

    P: Until one fateful day, one of my northern friends found me on the dating site, and then they texted a screenshot of my profile to all of my friends back home. It wasn’t malicious! They didn’t think it through. They thought it’d be something fun or scandalous, but obviously, to me, it was a huge deal. It totally outed me before I was ready, and it made me so scared to go home and see these people.

    P: I thought it’d be best just to explain it all at once, and thankfully, we were in the golden era of MSN, so I just added them all into a group chat and said, “Yes, it’s true. I’m gay.” Some of the guys were saying, “Yeah, as long as you don’t fancy me or anything.” And I was like, “Yeah, you wish.” And after that they were totally cool, and I was lucky to have them as friends.
  • [4:50] Phil talks about coming out to his family:
    P: My parents kind of found out themselves around this time, uh, from the people I was hanging out with and *cough* staying the night a lot. So that saved me having to tell them, I guess, and these days, my family are accepting and generally lovely people.
  • [5:03] Phil talks about who he’s come out to over the years, and he talks about his experiences with homophobia:
    P: And I slowly continued to come out to more people like friends, family, people I randomly work with, people I live near. I wish I could say, “Everyone’s been super accepting and lovely all the time.” But sadly, especially ten years ago, this was just not the case.

    P: What I’d say to someone that encounters this is it’s not always like that forever. In the same way that I was ashamed of being gay as a teen, some people have been taught for various reasons that being gay is bad too. But if these people know you and care about you, they can hopefully change their beliefs. You can try and educate them and explain it because especially old people have some totally misguided views.

    P: But if it’s more than that and it’s emotional to them, I think it can be more about time because the world is gradually becoming a better place, and with that, people are gradually becoming more accepting. So people might react badly at first, but that’s because we’re all victims of this cultural brainwashing that puts these feelings in our heads.

    P: In my experience, they can come around, but if they can’t, unfortunately, there might not be room for them in your life until they can. Because it’s not something you should put up with, and it’s part of who you are. And there’s nothing wrong with it.
  • [6:01] Phil talks about how coming out is a lifelong process and how he’s been pretty open about being gay since he was a student:
    P: It’s funny, though. You never stop coming out to people because it’s not like you do it once and then everyone knows, and it’s no big deal.

    P: Every time I make a connection with someone new, I’ll have to come out at some point. I mean, it’s not always relevant, but sometimes you’ve got to slide it into conversation. “No, I don’t think I’ll settle down with a nice girl one day, lady in the shop.”

    P: It feels weird that I need to keep doing this as someone that’s been pretty open since I was a student, but that’s the world we live in.
  • [6:24] Phil talks about how he’s private and how his content is not going to change going forward:
    P: This channel for me over the last ten years has been about being creative or entertaining people, rather than sharing my personal life. I’m not gonna be a daily vlogger anytime soon and broadcast myself washing my underwear to millions of people.
  • [6:38] Phil again touches on why he’s decided to make a coming out video:
    P: But now I do feel like it’s important to share that I’m gay because hopefully my story will help some of you. And representation is important. I think teen Phil would have liked it if he could see someone on the internet that was just like him.
  • [6:58] After an interlude where Phil acts out telling the postman that he’s gay, Phil concludes with a few scathing and then a few uplifting words:
    P: So there we go! I’m gay. It’s great. I’m happy, and hopefully you’re happy for me too. If not, I hope you have a think about why you want a fellow human to be unhappy and not true to who they are and if that is a healthy mindset to have. *in a stage whisper* It doesn’t make much sense. It’s okay to be gay.

    P: And anyone watching this that is worried about their sexuality or is not out yet or is scared, I would say: Don’t worry. There’s no rush. The world is clearly becoming a much better place very quickly. I mean, there’s still issues, but I think the future is bright. So stay hopeful. There are people out there for you. Even if it doesn’t feel like it now, it will get better.
  • [7:44] There is no end screen.
  • In the video description, there is only a single merch link (to the global AmazingPhil Shop), and it is listed with Phil’s social media links.
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Aaw Martyn <3 And some other replies:
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kavat wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:41 am I keep thinking about that moment in a Chels & Jim liveshow where someone asks (paraphrasing) "What's the deal with Dan and Phil, they gay?" and Chels answers with "We all know the deal with Dan and Phil" while Jimmy just gets up and leaves the frame. I can't find it now, but I think it shows that it was probably pretty known within the (brittish) YT community, some people just had a bit more tact.

Can we also appreciate the continuation of the vase joke. That just set the tone for the whole video, what a legend.
Here's that video, if you were still trying to find it!
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Does anyone else feel like they've stumbled into an alternate timeline or something? I was always one of those people who thought they'd never come out or outright tell us anything about their relationship, and then Dan kicked down the door with BIG and Phil tweeted and I thought, 'OK, That's that, then.' And then I woke up this morning to Phil's video. Life feels strange. It's awesome, don't get me wrong. I am super happy for both of them. I just never expected that we'd be in a position where we actually KNOW stuff.
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ladyknight1512 wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:39 am Does anyone else feel like they've stumbled into an alternate timeline or something?
I'm still in shock tbh. What is this, the post-coming-out universe now? :happytears:

I think a big part of Dan and Phil choosing now to come out to all their fans (and Dan his family) would have been influenced partly from seeing how diverse and queer/queer-friendly their audience was during their tour last year, and how much them coming out would help so many of them. Which is really cool of them.

I wish them both every happiness and success in their future personal and working lives!! :prideheart2: :love1: :love2:
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I haven't posted here in a while as things have been happening soo much over this past month, but

I'm so incredibly proud of both of them. They are out, they are happy, and it's great. :love2:

Over the years, they've amassed such a great, accepting, queer fanbase. While some outsiders looking in have been judging the phandom, interpreting it as us pressuring them, their fans was always a reassurance to them that when the time comes they will be accepted. People bringing pride flags to meet and greets and everything, that must've meant more to them than we know.

I like the differences in their coming out videos, because to me it shows just how well they balance each other out. I don't mean that in real life (since they are people and just as complex as anyone else) as much as I mean it about the way they present themselves online.

I appreciate that Dan took on the harder topics, wanting to educate and share difficult things from his past, and I appreciate that Phil took the edge off by being focusing mainly on being entertaining. They have a shared audience, and for younger lgbt people and allies I think it's incredibly important to show two sides to coming out and being a gay person in general. Two people can have completely different experiences, and they really showed that in their coming out videos. It makes me even more proud of them.

So yes. I'm happy. I'm proud. I've watched these guys since 2014, and I just love them more and more each day. That won't change any time soon.

So, the future is clear, guys. It's pretty queer.
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Catallena wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:58 am
Cricket wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:27 am
eevee wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:05 am
queerofcups wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:50 am I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them? I know there was the Cat thing and possibly Louise saying some questionable things but in comparison to the number of people they interact with, idk man, I'd expect them being queer/together to be way more of an active rumour outside of their fan base than it seemed to be?

Truly I'm wondering if they just had everyone signing NDAs or if they're way less famous than we think of them or what. I have so many questions!
this is a very good point. if he was casually out as gay to everyone around him, how did the phandom not pick up on that? we're the best internet sleuths around. maybe we weren't looking very hard because we all thought he was bi? i think i heard one time that someone was saying phil was gay but i think many people shrugged it off like "he's bi" ???? that is kinda weird. i think phil likely told all his friends that he wasn't out in his career/internet persona but....telling local shopkeepers?? and we didn't hear? what else are we missing??
I said something about this in the, frankly essay, post I made a few up but I think a big part of it is a combination between them not being massively famous outside a particular swathe of the population and it genuinely being pretty difficult to publicly out someone. Phil is smart enough to ascertain if whoever he’s speaking to has any idea who he is so the odds are pretty good that these random folks wouldn’t think to mention it because why go around telling people about random conversations but if they DID or if they realized it later and said something to anyone....why would we believe them? If a shopkeeper is saying ‘oh yeah I’ve met that guy he told me he’s gay’ I think most of us wouldn’t take it seriously AT all. And industry people absolutely have said things alluding to it and the rumors but without something substantial (video or photographic evidence mostly) they’re just going to be seen as trying to cash in on rumors. And if they did have that substantial proof they’d have to know that doing anything with it publicly would be 1) a huge dick move and 2) probably blow up their career and no one who would benefit from the infamy of posting something like that is likely to have gotten close enough to have that evidence imo.
After Dan's video I definitely had a Nobody Knew Shit perspective (aside from Bryony and Wirrow), but I had to throw it out of the window after Phil's video. If Phil was coming out to people in his uni days then he most likely told his internet friends that as well. And then I especially mean the pre-Dan era ones, like John, Cat, PJ, Duncan etc. At first I just thought that they only would have had their suspicions from what they saw on Twitter and Dailybooth and then just rolled with it when D&P stopped being open and flirty in public. But now that I know that they likely Knew about Phil, it's different. They may not have not known specifics about how Dan identified, but if your out gay friend starts spending all his time with this one guy for years... that's kind of just an out relationship isn't it? Even if the other half has his struggles.

I'm not sure when it comes to the friends they met in the years after, like Louise or the rest of the BritTube/US community. But what Cricket says all sounds very plausible. I am still kinda curious about the community gossip around Dan and Phil's relationship, at least until like 2015 or something.

I almost feel like analyzing that one liveshow with Deppy + Jack, Ben, Tom, and Louise again. Or jump in front of a train, that sounds better.
The one i really wonder if they knew about Phil is Shawna because that adds a whole new level of tragic to their collab. But Phil is a sweet guy who probably wouldn't turn down a friend even if they had shitty beliefs.
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So when Dan says 'i never met an out gay person until I was 18'

And Phil says 'ive been pretty out since uni'

And Dan and Phil became friends around about the exact day of Dans 18th birthday.


Was PHIL the first out person Dan met?

Regardless. Baby gay me is so SO happy to see this representation - I didn't think I could love Phil more than I do (esp because when I met him and told him how much he had helped me he was so fucking soft) and honestly I remember why I've stuck around for the last nearly 7 years.

:prideheart2:
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It's been 10 years this year since they met, wtf, that's a DECADE.
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I’m so surprised by him making a video about it but also so so so glad he did. Very proud of him. He kept it light-hearted and funny while also mentioning some pretty serious stuff. I agree with dan, this video had a lot of important points! :prideheart2:

I also noted and liked how their two videos seem to compliment each other very well. As with most things dnp do in the public eye, they really do approach it as a team.
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"One of the other big fears holding me back was honestly that I wouldn't be accepted by the community. I know that it's a big pride flag covering a lot of ground and even the idea of it and certainly most of it is amazing but there is a lot of drama within it right now. Especially on the internet. you got grindr gays arguing about how manly gays should be, bis getting ignored, trans people especially of color not being historically appreciated, acephobia, fuckin' swerfs and terfs, so even though they're my people I know some of them will have problems with something."

I'm not interested in joining a debate about if "TERFs" deserve validation, but I do want to point out that the point of Dan's statement wasn't just "fuck TERFs" it was much, much bigger. Dan was talking about the unrest within the LGBTQ+ community itself, and he named several examples, one being "TERFs and SWERFs" because many of them are lesbians. I think this idea, that the LGBTQ+ community is not super unified right now, especially online, and less unified than it used to be, is really big and important. That's what he's trying to bring awareness to here in this statement - he's sharing with us that it can be hard to come out even to the LGBTQ+ community because there is so much unrest and disagreement within it. Honestly I get where he's coming from, and I'm personally happy he mentioned bisexuals getting ignored, because even though he is not bisexual himself, it is very true that bisexuals are 1. getting erased (it took my gay friends a LOT to believe I was bi, and biphobia in general is very real, from both inside and outside the queer community) and 2. getting appropriated left and right (I'm bi and the amount of people i've met appropriating bisexuality blatantly and to my face is staggering)

So, I think it may be more meaningful for us to have a discussion about this, than go back and forth about fuck TERFs. We're not going to get anywhere with that discussion, if tumblr has taught us anything.

I think Dan brings up a very good point here that the LGBTQ+ community is not as unified as it used to be, or could/should be.

But I guess that's just what happens when a community gets bigger. It's happening within the online vegan community a lot too. Like, why are we infighting when we have this huge thing that unifies us, and we could be channeling our energy toward our opposition rather than each other. I think it's because we're all so passionate within the community about who we are (vegans and LGBTQ+) that we get sensitive about ideas we don't agree with. So it leads to infighting.

autumnhearth wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:49 amDefinitely satire, though I am going to take my own advice and let it go :ribena:
thank god it was just satire :lol: :lol: i got a little worried for a second there.
noodlebum wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:54 am
ladyknight1512 wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:39 am Does anyone else feel like they've stumbled into an alternate timeline or something?
I'm still in shock tbh. What is this, the post-coming-out universe now? :happytears:
absolutely. Is this real life? is this just fanta-sea? i ask myself every day. 2019 truly is Blessed Year.

that being said i stand by my belief that if he identifies as gay we need to respect that.
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liola wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:08 am I mean there's a been a lot of rumours over the years that people who kind-of-knew some youtubers or worker in that industry kind of knew about them dating/being gay, but let's be real, not even us believed those rumours, and the majority of the fandom, or at least the most vocal, always believed they were. If not even fans believe those rumours, why would someone else? It's much easier to pass it as speculation after all.
I'm actually super curious how many of these actually knew and how many made it up for phandom attention because you're right, people saying they knew more than the rest of us used to pop up every few months and we never believed any of them. Especially since there were always people like "I know them and they're broken up" or "I know them and they're not even friends, they hate each other". The, um, good old times?
eevie wrote:I think Dan brings up a very good point here that the LGBTQ+ community is not as unified as it used to be, or could/should be.
It was never really unified though. Biphobia and transphobia were always a giant problem within the community, same with ace erasure. I think the community looks less unified because we're finally starting to address these issues openly so they become more visible. But they've always been a problem and I think spreading more awareness and talking about them instead of just ignoring them is a good development and a sign that things are actually getting better, not worse.
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Katka wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:54 am Can I just say, I'm really, really cringing thinking of that nanalew collab now. What happened there? Why did that happen?
queerofcups wrote:I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them?
Ha, same. I mean, it's actually not that hard to be a decent person and not out someone but I'm still surprised so many Youtube people were apparently decent people, especially way back when a lot of people weren't aware how painful forced outings are. Then again, he didn't say he was out to everyone. Might be he was only out to Youtubers he was a bit closer to (like Cat, Louise maybe, Bryony etc.) and knew he could trust. I actually don't see him telling perfect strangers after what happened with his friend from home, at least not perfect strangers with a big internet presence. His local shopkeeper seems a lot safer because even if they went on the internet like "Phil's gay, lol", who would believe them?
Word, yes, I agree that its not hard to not out someone but I mean the rumour mill is the rumour mill and I...don't know if most straight people even know understand how bad outing is/can be? I can totally see someone talking about them pre-coming out as just gossip and not outing, that's why its so surprising to me. But perhaps the rumour mill was churning the whole time and I just didn't hear about it!
eevee wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:27 pm But I guess that's just what happens when a community gets bigger. It's happening within the online vegan community a lot too. Like, why are we infighting when we have this huge thing that unifies us, and we could be channeling our energy toward our opposition rather than each other. I think it's because we're all so passionate within the community about who we are (vegans and LGBTQ+) that we get sensitive about ideas we don't agree with. So it leads to infighting.
Idk man, my personal "infighting" energy comes from the fact that the life expectancy for trans women is 35 and terfs seem totes cool with perpetuating the ideologies that are directly violent towards trans women and contribute to that life expectancy. I don't really necessarily want to be unified with someone who's totally down with people who are part of the ""community"" offing themselves and/or living in abject poverty and fear/expectation of violence. That's not "disagreement". That's a commitment to solidarity with my trans sisters and siblings to make it culturally and socially uncomfortable and hopefully intolerable for people who are perfectly fine with them dying. And, to bring it back to the topic, its incredibly heartening for me, an NB person who doesn't experience an nth of the oppression trans women do, to hear someone with a platform as huge as Dan's saying, even implicitly, that no, this is a safe space for trans women. Because there are vanishingly few.
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queerofcups wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:46 pm
Katka wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:54 am Can I just say, I'm really, really cringing thinking of that nanalew collab now. What happened there? Why did that happen?
queerofcups wrote:I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them?
Ha, same. I mean, it's actually not that hard to be a decent person and not out someone but I'm still surprised so many Youtube people were apparently decent people, especially way back when a lot of people weren't aware how painful forced outings are. Then again, he didn't say he was out to everyone. Might be he was only out to Youtubers he was a bit closer to (like Cat, Louise maybe, Bryony etc.) and knew he could trust. I actually don't see him telling perfect strangers after what happened with his friend from home, at least not perfect strangers with a big internet presence. His local shopkeeper seems a lot safer because even if they went on the internet like "Phil's gay, lol", who would believe them?
Word, yes, I agree that its not hard to not out someone but I mean the rumour mill is the rumour mill and I...don't know if most straight people even know understand how bad outing is/can be? I can totally see someone talking about them pre-coming out as just gossip and not outing, that's why its so surprising to me. But perhaps the rumour mill was churning the whole time and I just didn't hear about it!
I think in my head it's easier to think that people wouldn't go around spreading rumours and gossips about someone in the same field/industry when it's just as easy to receive the same treatment. Being outed obviously isn't the same as having another personal information disclosed without consent given that it can be much worse and life threatening in the worst circumstances, but I think it's easy for me to see how in the media field, particularly once youtube started becoming big, it's just accepted to not spread rumours around if you care about keeping your own secrets?


On a sidenote, I really can't believe we even hae to discuss whether or not we should make TERFs feel welcomed in a space when their major point is to make transwomen not feel included. I'm sorry but I truly can't believe this is a conversation that is happening in this corner of fandom. I will reinforce my earlier statement, Fuck TERFs. You can hide behind your radfem statements just like neo-fascists hide behind the freedom of speech discourse. I don't see a difference between the two.
Will probably never be over the BONCAS and the beauty of Phil Lester.

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Re: this TERF debate, I think it's important to remember what Dan wrote in BIG's description: "The only thing I don't tolerate is intolerance."

Maybe it's #notallradfems, but TERFs are very much real and intolerant of trans women so, unless you seriously believe that trans women have less value as human beings than cis women, I don't see why anyone should be arguing that TERFs deserve the space they won't allow others.
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"comedy partner" is making me laugh.
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alittledizzy wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:36 pm "comedy partner" is making me laugh.
I read this article and at least 2 others that refer to dan as either his “comedy partner” or “longtime YouTube partner” and I’m wondering if Phil had any say in how these articles were worded. Interestingly they all bring up dan and how he referred to Phil as his soulmate in his video too...
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:prideflag: They did that!!!
I’m thrilled. I love how offhand Phil’s as about it! He truly balances out Dan’s overthinking with his nonchalant acceptance.
It’s so sweet to me that they knew each other’s stories and identities the whole time and trusted each other and were proud of each other <3
I’m interested in whether their specialities also changed & developed while they were together! Especially Dan. I wonder if it made it simpler or more confusing for him to be with a Gay man when he wasn’t sure of his identity.
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I am so proud and happy for Phil. He seems so excited, and the 5 sec clip is just hilarious. I watch it on a loop. I was one of the people who thought that Dan would make a video about sexuality at some point, but now that Phil has also made one, I am really surprised. Glad he did it. The video was so well done and so funny.

On the topic on "how" out Phil was the whole time, I also think that he might have exaggerated the part about being out to strangers. I mean yeah, I guess the topic of sexuality does come up occasionally, but I think Phil doesn't really want to make a big deal out of it, so I can't imagine there were so many situations where he would have felt save coming out, without making Dan uncomfortable. But the fact that he was out to his family and friends and maybe friends of friends is already a very big deal. I could imagine that the people Kath as always over for tea for example knew.
Maybe this also helped in their career, that they could test people if they could trust them, working with them, if they could openly tell them that Phil was gay.

Does anyone believe that Phil has been out to Dan's family as gay this whole time?

With YouTubers, I can't imagine that Phil continued to come out to other Youtubers when Dan did not feel save. Like how would that work? Dan and Phil spent most of their time together, meaning Dan would probably be just standing next to Phil, while Phil corrects someone that he is actually gay, and Dan just looks awkwardly? I also believe that with all the speculations, that new friends/peers would not directly ask them, and therefore there was no need for Phil to say anything.

Anyway, that's just speculation, I am just really happy for them.
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queerofcups wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:46 pmIdk man, my personal "infighting" energy comes from the fact that the life expectancy for trans women is 35 and terfs seem totes cool with perpetuating the ideologies that are directly violent towards trans women and contribute to that life expectancy. I don't really necessarily want to be unified with someone who's totally down with people who are part of the ""community"" offing themselves and/or living in abject poverty and fear/expectation of violence. That's not "disagreement". That's a commitment to solidarity with my trans sisters and siblings to make it culturally and socially uncomfortable and hopefully intolerable for people who are perfectly fine with them dying. And, to bring it back to the topic, its incredibly heartening for me, an NB person who doesn't experience an nth of the oppression trans women do, to hear someone with a platform as huge as Dan's saying, even implicitly, that no, this is a safe space for trans women. Because there are vanishingly few.
I think you missed the point of what I said. I'm pointing out that Dan was speaking about unrest in the community in many forms, not just due to the presence of TERFs. he talked about grindr's toxic culture, he talked about bi erasure, he touched on a lot and TERFs was just one of them. Read the quote I posted, it was directly from his video. There's "infighting" coming from all different kinds of people in the community, for many different reasons. That is what Dan was saying and what I am intending to open a discussion about.

I said that I am not interested in debating about TERFs so please do not take my post and twist it to look like I am in support of transphobia. My post was very clear, so please go back and read it again in full.

Here is a link for your convenience: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1692&p=108592#p108592

edit: you can feel that it's okay to have disagreements and infighting within the community, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I think that as a community we should all be working to be more unified, in many ways, and on many different topics, because - as Dan pointed out - the community is not as welcoming as it could be, and can even be toxic in many ways. You can defend your opinion that it's okay to have divides in the community, but please don't write a response to my post in such an accusatory and aggressive tone.
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I am seeing a lot of people here and on the other site saying that most people saw Dan as gay and Phil as bi and...where did this come from? From what I remember from some years ago, most people were actually convinced Dan was bi and unsure about Phil because of the lack of material regarding who he was attracted to, but a lot of us saw him as gay? :shrug:

if anyone wants to learn more about feminisms and the different theories about it, such as radical and liberal, i'd be glad to help with some material to read and watch. maybe you'll learn about why it's not ok to compare feminists to nazis ;)
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I just rewatched the pregnancy terminology video they did with Louise, and man they're so gay!!!! :wavingflag: (not that I didn't already think they were queer before, it just hits more intensely with their certification)
Also, I'm definitely just projecting, but I can almost see the gay fear and panic on their faces when Louise said "how big are the vaginas you're seeing in your lives" and when she said "I'm so glad I'm not having a baby with either of you" And Phil replied with "thanks". LMFAO I swear he actually meant "yeah ew girls thank god" :rofl:
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