Dan & Phil Part 92: japhan 2.0

[lefthandedism]

Argh, I really hate Dan's ageism. It's really not helpful.

If more men than women voted Conservative (which they probably did, but I haven't checked), would it be okay for him to make a sexist remark about it?

Jeremy Corbin is a boomer.



OK, fine. Since I'm top of the page, have some festive emoji, and shop for IDB merch!!

[Sami]

It's like the universe knew that I needed something to help balance out all the rubbish going on and delivered my glitch hoodie and aquarius candle this afternoon
It doesn't make everything better but it sure does help

[flarequake]

Yeah, the ageism jumped out, he’s done that so often, I don’t suppose he sees me telling him in the replies and I’m not the only one. I know what he means, though, some of my family are beyond reasoning, it’s incredible really. Jazza’s stream was good, I needed that company. Just got the news on tv and London is very Labour, so that’s interesting.

[dontpanic]

I mean, I get where you're coming from, but ageism seems a bit strong? like, obviously not all boombers and all that, but it's definitely the older generation putting us in these situations... i won't get all political here, but when people point out bad things men do we obviously don't mean all men, you know? Dan shouldn't have to say "not all boomers" for people to understand he's talking about

[bevioletsky]

Um, I definitely want to push back against this claim of ageism a little. If I saw someone on Twitter responding to that particular tweet with ‘stop being ageist’ I would honestly just roll my eyes, mentally go ‘ok boomer’ and move on, but I feel like saying something and saying that wouldn’t be very in spirit of the forum, so.

Getting stuck on that use of the word boomer and/or Dan talking about our generation specifically standing for hope is in my opinion, frankly, quite the boomer mentality. And I say this not knowing the ages of anyone in the conversation as it’s really not about that – as you point out, Corbyn for instance is a boomer himself. I’m not sure if there is comprehensive voting data for this election at the moment but generally the suggestion is that young people (under 35s) vote Labour at a rate of 50-60 percent vs Conservative at only about 20. For people aged 65+ this is reversed with the difference perhaps being even more stark. Factually, it is the old people voting at high rates electing the Tories, or at least it’s certainly not the young. Effectively this feels like old people making incredibly important and long-lasting decisions about our future that they will often not even be here to witness (in addition to generally ruining shit for everyone), and it is incredibly saddening and frustrating, so anyone going ‘not all old people’ to that is just... whatever. Tone deaf. Like I said, boomer-ish. It’s not about you. Everyone knows it’s literally not every single person who is not young anymore. Obviously conversely young people can hold really shitty and bigoted views as well. Having to make disclaimers like this for every bloody tweet would just be a nightmare.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, Dan is speaking to his audience here, an audience which consists of mainly young people – not exclusively, but mainly – and is one that probably feels quite shitty about the result atm. A feeling I’m sure Dan shares. The other day I saw he responded to a 17-year old who said they’d been campaigning for weeks, which is incredible. I think these are the people he’s trying to reach (I mean he literally begins the tweet with ‘if you’re a young person that has gotten involved in politics for the first time’) and thank with his tweet, and I appreciate him for trying to do that. Again, if you’re older, it’s not about you.

Look, I know no one was probably trying to really come for Dan and maybe this wall of text is really not warranted but perhaps I myself am slightly frustrated and tired of seeing all kinds of bad takes on Twitter and all over media so. Sorry.

//^ dontpanic was a touch quicker than me, oops. A much more tl;dr version of my rant as well.

[lefthandedism]

I am American and not British, so maybe what I know does not apply across the pond. (I've also spent most of my life in pretty liberal parts of the country, e.g., California.)

I'm not a boomer, but I am Gen-X (and have a lifetime of opportunity to hate the boomers for having always taken up the oxygen on everything and leaving nothing for us who trailed behind). I'm not sure how relevant that is except sure I'm more sensitive to the idea of being called old, and I probably have a bit of a tendency to roll my eyes at people younger than me rolling their eyes at people older than me .

My point is that I know a lot of people who are boomers who used to be hippies and flower children and such and who are super liberal, sometimes even weirdly so. That's what "boomer" means to me--not just a few exceptions, but the generation itself. My view is probably skewed by the people I know, but I guess I feel it's based on knowing people rather than a stereotype. (I don't like Millennial or Gen Z stereotypes either! Are there even Gen-X stereotypes or are we just forgotten? )

[poweroftriangles]

Personally my problem with it is less "not all boomers" and more "not only boomers". I don't know the stats for this UK election but wherever far-right governments are gaining power, it wouldn't be possible without a solid chunk of energetic youths behind them. I mean the Charlottesville marchers weren't exactly dinosaurs. Nor the mobs in my country that go around harassing/lynching Muslims. Yeah that generation didn't stop climate change etc etc but electorally it's not so binary that you can squarely pin the blame on them.

[anna_begins]

The voting demographics for this election overwhelmingly show that the older generations voted conservative & the younger ones labour. Referencing those statistics in a tweet specifically about the election is hardly ageist. On the other hand, pointing out “not all Boomers” reeks of the same sentiments as “not all police”, “not all men”, & “all lives matter” and acts as a distraction in identifying the issues that keep the older generation (as a whole, it’s understood not ALL) from voting in ways that aren’t detrimental to society.

[flarequake]

I don’t think he is leaving nuance or space for not-all-boomers, at least on the face of it. Maybe there’s not enough room in a tweet, but he’s spoken blanketly about boring old people before in a liveshow or two when he was at an event with slightly older industry people (probs not all much older than me) who didn’t really get YouTube. His audience isn’t all young and I remember someone a bit older than me was quite hurt by him, again, dismissing ‘old people’ that time. It was a while before ii when apparently they finally noticed our range of ages.

I’m 39 and my mum’s a boomer over 70, staunchly Tory, old fashioned mostly, I don’t want to go into detail about that in public, she’s not here. There are young people out there who support the conservatives too, for whatever reason they’ve come to that conclusion and it is worth remembering they exist despite how huge the progressive youth movement is. The rise in fascism is here and the alt-right has a fair few disillusioned young men involved, at least (not that I’m knowledgeable about all of this).

I just don’t think it’s great for Dan to say something divisive like that. He wouldn’t say it about any other kind of person. I was at a work dinner and the group was mostly hella older, and they’re offended by the blanket insult, and do realise what’s going on. We’ve already got kids in fandom thinking anyone over some arbitrary age is gross for being here/liking a singer/YouTuber etc or writing fic. I don’t think it helps.

[Catallena]

I think Dan's tweet was nice and uplifting for his audience of mainly young people. I don't think it's ageist and pissing off boomers is funny anyway. But I still had a problem with it.

When you look at it in a broader sense outside of just the UK election, the mindset that the generation of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. will die out one day is just not true. All those things are alive and well under many young people. Young educated rich white cishet males still exist, and they are still a threat. I'm just so afraid that Millenials and Gen Z will be too busy dunking on boomers to notice and fight back against that shit in our own spaces. Which might not be the uplifting message young people needed today and I get that, but 'eventually' is dangerous and implies that no more work needs to be done before we can have that better future of hope and change. It inspires laziness, leaving minorities to clean up the mess again. There's so much work that needs to be done and that young people can get involved with, and I wish Dan would have focused more on that in his post-election tweet.

Anyway, who wants to choke me with a pillow in my sleep before I have to deal with my own country's elections which are sure to be a clusterfuck of fascism? You have until March 2021.

[anna_begins]

The mindset that the generation of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. will die out one day is just not true. All those things are alive and well under many young people. Young educated rich white cishet males still exist, and they are still a threat.

Yes, this is a sad, scary fact. Like @lefthandedism, for the longest time I associated "boomers" as people "who used to be hippies and flower children and such and who are super liberal..." and remember being shocked when I learned that a majority of people from that generation vote republican. You mean to tell me not everyone born in that generation thought the same way? It's important that we see what's going on beyond our own bubbles. I believe Dan's tweet was meant to encourage people to not give up and to still have hope for our future, and I think it was a good message for the time being, but I'd love for him to continue the conversation beyond that with some of the things that have been mentioned here when the hurt from this election results isn't so raw.

[bevioletsky]

^ oh yeah I can definitely agree with your post (Catallena) and a lot of what poweroftriangles was saying as well, my post obviously wasn’t an attempt to absolve young ppl of culpability (here, for example, young men and women are diverging in their views often quite radically and it’s... worrying). I was just not about the ageism argument at all, and like I said I think that the tweet was mostly intended for a certain audience that seemed to appreciate it. So basically I agree.

I’m worried about straying off-topic so here’s Phil’s fursona no I-have-lost-count:
(Also I wouldn’t mind him playing apex in a liveshow again, it’s been my favourite of the games he’s played.)

[parallel]

I don't think that Dan's tweet in particular was a problem for the reasons bevioletsky mentioned. However, I do think that generational analysis is lazy political and class analysis.

Don't forget that boomers were alive during many historical civil rights movements. There were working class boomers, POC boomers, LGBTQ+ boomers, feminist boomers, etc., all of whom fought for our rights today. The term "boomer" and the whole boomer discourse seems to be talking about a specific type of boomer which is given disproportionate visibility: the white, middle-class boomer who votes Tory and holds some borderline (or outright) racist/xenophobic views. Admittedly, these are the types of boomers which are likely to be alive today; the life expectancy for the working class LGBTQ+ POC boomers would have been much lower. However, I still think it is lazy to say "boomers caused this" rather than lay the blame on the many other, far more significant factors leading to the election result.

This tweet seems relevant:

Furthermore, as Catallena said, we can't just rely on fascism dying out with the boomer generation. Notably, fascist youth express their fascism in different ways to older generations. Young white men (mostly white men, at least, with not very many exceptions) who were bullied for being nerds get radicalised into joining a decentralised fascist movement. Being a skinhead is not cool, edgy, or intellectual, but being an internet 'alt-right' type is.

A relevant video:

[nilidh]

I wonder if the influx of traditionally working-class, staunch Labour strongholds that voted Tory this time influenced Dan's tweet wrt the choice of the word boomer. Part of what made this election so shocking was that it wasn't just the privileged, upper-class constituencies that voted Tory. Poor, working-class boomers in England and Wales are voting Tory too - even Bolsover is blue

[flarequake]

Tories are the only one definitely promising Brexit, so that’s clearly popular. Labour had been for It, but then softened up. Still surprised it’s so popular after the mess of no deal really on the table, but the Tories seem to have got everyone to believe their hype. Rise-of-fascism tactics apparently, not to be too simple about it, but that’s what I’ve picked up while wondering ‘how on Earth’.

[dontpanic]

so when will Dan finally tweet about the new Harry Styles album??

[gnostic]

It's not only the middle class, "well off" - (c) that tweet - boomers voting Tory and holding anti minorities view, thougj. Not even primarily.

[flarequake]

That’s true too. I hadn’t realised, but have seen a few people point out that labour doesn’t really represent the working people anymore, apparently have gone too academic/intellectual. I find that a bit of a simplification and maybe insulting to working people, but apparently it does matter. They meant from an economy point of view rather than intolerance and racism, but anti-immigration lies are all entwined in jobs and the economy.

[dogsaremybestfriends]

Does anyone know if Phil is doing a liveshow today?

[lurker]

hey! hope y'all are doing fine, it's been A While since i logged on here and despite my username i haven't really lurked either. i still enjoy deppy content, but i enjoyed reading video discussions the most, so...

apologies in advance if you've been discussing this on and off for 5000 years while i wasn't looking (if so, maybe let me know roughly which thread it was or what to search for?), but does anyone have ideas/opinions on what dan could be posting if he ever posts again that are consistent with which he seems to be aiming for on his channel? the question occured to me because i caught myself thinking "man i wish dan would upload something" and then... i just came up blank with what that could possibly be. how i'm seeing it, there's a huge dissonance between what i enjoy about dan's content, what he seems to expect from himself, and what sort of life he wants to lead. obviously he doesn't want to be a vlogger, he has stepped up a lot with respect to boundaries and privacy (and i think that's good for him and i respect that). however, for me personally, he thrives the most when he's telling stories. i love "i nearly blinded myself" and "our awkward fancy dinner" -- i think he has great talent in setting a tone, in pacing, and in delivering the punch-lines of a story that can be told in 10-20 minutes. however, videos/stories like these obviously also live from an interest in dan as a person and into his life, and while drawing a boundary between professional and private life, it's difficult to imagine he will continue to tell stories like these.

on the other hand, i found that "basically i'm gay" was a great video as well and (disregarding the content for a second) it was stylistically different than previous videos and more video essayist. i think it suited the topic well and again, dan did a really good job imo in adopting the style to his video and giving it his own spin. however, big still is a personal topic, and to me it somehow read like the Ultimate Personal Video, as in, the last one. partially this is due to him setting up boundaries within the context of the video, for example wrt phil: the tone read to me like "this is how much i will share about this topic, right here and now, and then i won't talk about it again". so even if he experiments with this different video style, at the moment sharing further personal stories within this type of video seems out of bounds for me. of course, video essays can be about anything, but in order to write an essay about something you should ideally have some sort of expertise on the topic.

now that i've typed all this, the idea came to mind that i could imagine dan writing a video in an essay style about internet culture / youtube culture and its influences on mental health, in some ways drawing from his own experiences but not making it a storytime. idk

does anyone have any thoughts?

[liola]

Imagine if Phil had a gaming channel, what use he could do of that gaming spon from EA

[kavat]

He looks so good!

I wonder if they're going to the premier this time? All I want for christmas is a red carpet photo.

[flarequake]

Heh, they didn’t show us much of games like that anyway, but it does feel a little teasing now they’re not gaming, other than the liveshows of course, but right now there’s some concern on Twitter that he hasn’t said anything about one tonight yet.

We did discuss that about Dan a while ago. He was posting a few short poems on Instagram stories, I wondered if a book might happen, but it wasn’t a popular choice. I’d be surprised if he returns to YouTube especially as an essayist, though I did think on those lines for a while. It seems more than he’d want to do in a few ways, others had some opinions too, I forget what they all were now. A stand up comedy show was also a theory. He’s called his content comedy a few times this year and he did the storytime about the marathon on stage at Vidcon. He’d worked on that at the writing retreat, I think, though then again maybe that was it, possibly just testing the waters though he’s done similar with Phil onstage in the past at cons and in his previous video format. At this point we don’t know and are perpetually waiting for that ever-fun ‘soon’ for him to tell us. I’m guessing maybe in spring. I’m getting a little tired of waiting tbh, but he’s doing his thing (tbh since we discovered he is working on something and not taking a complete break for reasons, I’d like him to talk to us more again, eg liveshows or something, but wcyd).

[Catallena]

Member post! Last liveshow of the year tonight.

I wonder what the video he'll film tomorrow will be. Am I still allowed to hope for mukbang is that straight up delusion at this point?

[Amiaw]

Hope for mukbang but expect more EA spon