Dan & Phil Part 99: OnlyPhans

[LAshleigh]

whilst very much subverting gender stereotypes there are plenty of wearable items too.

Yeah I felt a little thrown by their repeated conclusion that they would mostly avoid femme fashion because it's not comfortable. While there are certainly features of stereotypically women's wear that are uncomfortable such as heels, a lot of femininity lies in the cut and fit of a clothing item. I mean how many cis women does anyone know who regularly wear dresses or heels? (Unless their job demands it) I feel like most people (at least in the western world) spend 98% of their lives in tshirts or button ups and trousers or jeans. I certainly do, and I enjoy a touch of feminine expression.

This is a good point, half of my button ups are 'women's' and half of them are 'men's' and they're just different enough for me to feel subversive about wearing both.

A lot of the young people I know have been making an effort to shop in both sections and just pick whatever they like regardless of what gendered labels, and I think it's quite powerful even if 90% of the time the differences are fairly subtle.

[inanerat]

Listening back to the stream and cackling at this:

The first bucket of doom situation is Dan falling asleep under the desk at work (aka something he's made a storytime vid about) and the the second was a date attempting to 'slowly feed you wet calamari so you decide to leave' and then the third is sleepwalking and waking up naked in the middle of town. Only after the sleepwalking one does Dan comments 'ok just to be clear this one hasn't happened in my actual life'

???so the calamari feeding has happened??? or what lmao

the following 'if you're gonna be tonguing someone, you wanna be tasting nice' conversation also reminded me of the what dnp text each other vid where Dan's like 'I go all in on the cheese [pasta] when Phil's not home 'cause he's lactose intolerant' and like.. true, he is but he doesn't eat cheese because he doesn't like it... he could just have his own dish you wouldn't have to share but ok I mean maybe he just can't stand just the smell.

[Secretstanner]

and the the second was a date attempting to 'slowly feed you wet calamari so you decide to leave' and then the third is sleepwalking and waking up naked in the middle of town. Only after the sleepwalking one does Dan comments 'ok just to be clear this one hasn't happened in my actual life'

???so the calamari feeding has happened??? or what lmao

I don’t think this actually happened to him. At first I was like ?? Hang on then listened again. I think him saying “this haven’t happened in my real life” was so he could say ‘it’s totally something that would happen to him. Showing up naked in the middle of london) his reaction to this story was not like the first and last job one Phil added in. There was such a stronge reaction and I think Dan would of said Phil was exposing him or he felt called out. But who knows? Maybe he’ll tell us next stereo it did in fact happen

[inanerat]

and the the second was a date attempting to 'slowly feed you wet calamari so you decide to leave' and then the third is sleepwalking and waking up naked in the middle of town. Only after the sleepwalking one does Dan comments 'ok just to be clear this one hasn't happened in my actual life'

???so the calamari feeding has happened??? or what lmao

I don’t think this actually happened to him. At first I was like ?? Hang on then listened again. I think him saying “this haven’t happened in my real life” was so he could say ‘it’s totally something that would happen to him. Showing up naked in the middle of london) his reaction to this story was not like the first and last job one Phil added in. There was such a stronge reaction and I think Dan would of said Phil was exposing him or he felt called out. But who knows? Maybe he’ll tell us next stereo it did in fact happen

I think something like this is likely too, he probably didn't actually mean it how it ended up sounding but I found it entertaining. Made me go back and watch the lessamazingphil art piece 'Dan tries caviar' as well.

[BlueSnoko]

he could just have his own dish you wouldn't have to share but ok

Can you imagine EITHER of them going through the trouble of making a separate dish?

[BlueSnoko]

and the the second was a date attempting to 'slowly feed you wet calamari '
???so the calamari feeding has happened??? or what lmao

I don’t think this actually happened to him. At first I was like ?? Hang on then listened again. I think him saying “this haven’t happened in my real life”

Made me go back and watch the lessamazingphil art piece 'Dan tries caviar' as well.

I thought of the Caviar vid as well. Also, not a date, but I feel like during that tropical Go Pro YouTube work vacation they went on, that older couple they were hanging with made Dan try Calamari. So not a date but... potentially close enough?

Though I could see a young Phil thinking it delightful to feed a date literal tentacles. @_@

[BlueSnoko]

I really love how vocal phil was about this topic. It wasn’t just him going “yeah” to what dan says but he actually said a lot of very insightful things. They both have come a long way but I think phil had a bit more ingrained toxic masculinity because of how he grew up. It was just great to hear

It's interesting to hear he said he never was drawn to any sort of female expression considering the bonnet story his mother told and the "girl's purse" story from the attic vid. Both small incidental things, but the fact they completely didn't register makes me think about how self image is shaped by percieved societal expectations. And while he was drawn to masculine dress, he wasn't 100% happy with gender roles. Some of his early weird videography expressed a discomfort with the confines of gender expectations. I also recall him going on a mini rant in one of his early liveshows about how in the future dying your hair won't be gendered and how (his) "granpa thinks dying your hair is girly." And who could forget the frustration with his father for gifting him first a saw and then the infamous cordless hammer drill.

I wonder how conscious the gender roles in the family were - they seemingly had no problem accepting his sexuality when it became apparent, which is certainly not an attribute of stodgy traditional masculinity.

[Susanisnotafish]

Coincidentally came across this tonight that relates to the latest stereo.





Also, if only they’d name the last stereo show housebound husbands, I would think I was living in a fan fic! That would make a good title for a fic.

[Tornbetweenfandoms]

Coincidentally came across this tonight that relates to the latest stereo.





Also, if only they’d name the last stereo show housebound husbands, I would think I was living in a fan fic! That would make a good title for a fic.

Speaking of husband's...did anyone pick up on them both making it very clear they don't like wearing rings

[glitterintheair]

I just wanna say that I am absolutely living for Phil expressing his opinions on things in a serious and passionate way. Not that I don’t appreciate his entertainer side, but damn I really love when he’s just “Phil” instead of “AmazingPhil” because I realized that I have always related more to Dan, but maybe it was also because I knew less about Phil and now that he’s opening up more, I am finding so many things that I have in common with him. When he was talking about not liking nail polish or jewelry or how he couldn’t wear high heels.. I felt so seen.

Another thing: does Dan know what patriarchy is? I am genuinely wondering because he said that “jeans are oppression of the patriarchy” and I am like?? What?? Jeans are oppression, but like, high heels are not? I remember he said something weird about patriarchy last week too, so now I wonder what exactly does he think patriarchy is about. I have a feeling he’s mixing it up with the concept of toxic masculinity.

[fruitcriminals]

I am wondering if maybe they're not giving themselves enough credit for how they do already wear some femme things and have done over the years?

They're two very tall good looking guys, they will stand out like a sore thumb even in London if they wear anything too wild and whilst that's fine, I can't imagine them wanting to draw even more attention to themselves. I remember Dan saying something similar when he didn't want to wear his hoodie with the horns on out in public because people would stare, and he's right, just on a regular trip to Sainsbury's - they will. There's plenty of outfits I have that I know can only be worn to a club, others only to a bar or fancy hotel or restaurant otherwise people will stare.

In the past there's been Dan in his long grey sweatshirt/dress, his lacy kimono, stereotypically feminine cuts like slashed or boat neck tops, his silky versace pj's, the nail varnish etc. dressing up like Becky and Jessica - which is why the fan art started in the first place I thought?

Phil's got some more tight 'night out' tops with a bit of a shimmer or glitter in them or some colourful feminine patterns, that silky colourful bomber jacket was lovely, he's dyed his hair for years and will wear cat or bunny ears (sure maybe not on the street but in videos for millions of people to see), and they both have worn makeup before.

I think there's definitely ways to branch out and enjoy a more feminine twist of male fashion (different fabrics, colours, cuts) and there's ways to try easy makeup - a sheer eye gloss for example you just swipe on or going for a manicure even if you don't have nail varnish applied - I've dragged plenty of straight male friends to have those if their hands have looked rough. It's just a fun and relaxing hour even if you don't want the nail varnish, a hand massage if you've been typing a lot is just sublime.

Sure fan art drawers draw them in the popular femboy outfit of skirt and fishnets that's all over tiktok, but they probably haven't got subscriptions to vogue and gq magazine and their pinterest boards are more likely to be age appropriate fashions like 'cottage core' rather than actual high fashion designers or menswear for men in their 30's, so you can't really blame em!

[kavat]

The show last night was lovely, I really enjoyed hearing them talk a little more in depth about a topic. I also love how vocally they have shown support towards fanartists lately, both in reposting on IG and now talking about what people like to draw them in. I remember a couple of years ago there was a trend of drawing Dan in dresses, and that had a backlash of people saying you shouldn't do that, it's fetishizing/uncomfortable for him/whatever excuse they used. I was pretty sure dnp were fine with it but it's great hearing it from the horse's mouth.

[inanerat]

Another thing: does Dan know what patriarchy is? I am genuinely wondering because he said that “jeans are oppression of the patriarchy” and I am like?? What?? Jeans are oppression, but like, high heels are not? I remember he said something weird about patriarchy last week too, so now I wonder what exactly does he think patriarchy is about. I have a feeling he’s mixing it up with the concept of toxic masculinity.

(bold by me)

This is something I'm quite passionate about, and I think it fits well into the femboy discussion so I'm going to write a little about it. It's an idea I feel like Dan has been playing with/mulling over for a while but the short ways in which he shows it feel confusing and incomplete.

If you want more info/theory reading on this topic, I suggest looking into things on (cis)heteropatriarchy. I'm just gonna articulate my personal thoughts on the topic.
CW: clear articulation of sexist, homophobic and transphobic views and logic spelled out for the sake of clarity in the argument, which you likely already are aware of and may be difficult to read. Take care of yourself if you need to. None of it is true, but it is strong societal bullshit and can be impactful to read.

In my mind, toxic masculinity is very much a symptom of patriarchy. While perhaps the most common definition of patriarchy is "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it." (Google/Oxford English) and and that is certainly most glaring in the obvious legal and social oppression of women in Western society, the ideologies behind that have wider effects. The idea 'men have power/are superior over women' or taken further 'masculinity is superior/has power over femininity' is a weak one from many different angles, and so the patriarchy must protect itself in ways that extend beyond the obvious oppressions of women that we tend to associate it with.

The rigid ideas of 1. a binary physical sex, 2. a binary social gender and role that is equivalent to physical sex and 3. (although slightly less directly connected, very much prevalent) a sexual relationship between a man and a woman that is regarded as the most important type of relationship and where the man's power/superiority is upheld, are required to keep the patriarchy stable, strong and in place. In this way, physical sex variance (intersex people, to some extent medical transition), gender variance (both cis people breaking gender roles but more intensely trans and nonbinary people existing and expressing themselves) and non-heterosexual sexual orientations (gays, queers, asexuals, etc.) are all threats to the patriarchy, and thus the tactics of oppression used against them all trace back to patriarchy.

In this way toxic masculinity is a key tool of the patriarchy in which men (mostly) punish other men for expression of anything 'feminine' or outside of what is deemed 'proper' masculinity in order to encourage or force them to stay in line, as any crossing or remixing of the 3 ideas above is a threat to the power system of the patriarchy. Queerphobia and transphobia (as well as general oppression for gender variance) are also very much tied together under the umbrella of patriarchy. While not accurate, gender variance is often used as 'evidence' of someone's not-straight sexuality, and homophobic slurs are often used against people expressing visible gender variance.

When it comes to men and homophobia being used as punishment for gender variance (both in expression or in breaking the gender role of being in a sexual/romantic relationship with someone of the 'opposite' gender), I personally think patriarchy has a lot to do with why references 'being gay' or 'being with another man' is viewed and used as a punishment also is directly connected to the patriarchy. When you dig deeper into why being a queer man would be bad or used to insult someone a lot of it comes down to the idea of being in a sexual/romantic relationship to a man being emasculating and weak because under the 3 ideas of patriarchy, the position of being in that relationship with a man is a feminine one, supposed to be taken by a woman, in which the man has power/superiority over them. Now obviously when you have too men (or people of any genders) mutually loving and respecting each other in a relationship the whole idea crumbles very quickly, but at it's base it is this patriarchal idea of heterosexuality that is at the root of homophobia against men. (It is also at the root of homophobia against women, but from the perspective of it being breaking of a woman's role in patriarchy to be solely for a man's pleasure/service in relationships (especially gross)) This is also why gay top/bottom binaries and their association with dominance and masculinity/submissiveness and femininity is also especially problematic and gross. (Not that anyone is problematic or gross for liking what they like, including if it does match up with those stereotypes, but attributing and extrapolating people's qualities or preferences based on those connections of things is big eugh.)

This was really long but I hope interesting for some people? Basically I feel like this idea of oppression based on sex, gender and sexuality all falling under the umbrella of patriarchy is something Dan has danced around a few times and probably thought quite a bit about in his process of unpacking the intensity of his internalized homophobia and experiences with bullying, but never really threaded together when talking to the internet in a way that would make sense if you're not already on his wavelength, so I'm hoping this can add something interesting or a bit of clarity or perspective for some people.

As for the exact comment on jeans, idk exactly where he was coming from. Maybe he finds them somewhat uncomfortable and it's a 'wearing jeans 'cause it's the normal masc thing to do even though you'd rather not' train of thought, but that definitely applies way more to the heels and plenty of 'feminine' clothing under the patriarchal 'women's worth based on being desirable to men and sacrificing comfort, practicality, safety and stability to do so' logic so

[Templeofshame]

Another thing: does Dan know what patriarchy is? I am genuinely wondering because he said that “jeans are oppression of the patriarchy” and I am like?? What?? Jeans are oppression, but like, high heels are not? I remember he said something weird about patriarchy last week too, so now I wonder what exactly does he think patriarchy is about. I have a feeling he’s mixing it up with the concept of toxic masculinity.

I definitely interpreted the jeans comment as a joke just like when Dan says random things are homophobia. There are lots of smart things to be said about the relationship between the patriarchy and toxic masculinity, and I'm glad for people to be talking about it, but I didn't get anything from the context of Dan connecting jeans to toxic masculinity. He's talking pretty straightforwardly about the comfort of clothing at that point. I enjoyed and posted about the "jeans are oppression of the patriarchy" comment because I related to it as just like... jeans are really uncomfortable and terrible, but socially ubiquitous, so, like, lol down with the oppressive society that tries to get me (and most people, regardless of gender) to wear jeans!

[alittledizzy]

A short but very relevant compilation by oqua - all about those little moments mentioned in this thread that I think he himself probably hasn't picked up on nearly as much as us, because honestly... it's not like he sits around playing his old videos from 2013, you know?

[fruitcriminals]

Another thing: does Dan know what patriarchy is? I am genuinely wondering because he said that “jeans are oppression of the patriarchy” and I am like?? What?? Jeans are oppression, but like, high heels are not? I remember he said something weird about patriarchy last week too, so now I wonder what exactly does he think patriarchy is about. I have a feeling he’s mixing it up with the concept of toxic masculinity.

(bold by me)

This is something I'm quite passionate about, and I think it fits well into the femboy discussion so I'm going to write a little about it. It's an idea I feel like Dan has been playing with/mulling over for a while but the short ways in which he shows it feel confusing and incomplete.

If you want more info/theory reading on this topic, I suggest looking into things on (cis)heteropatriarchy. I'm just gonna articulate my personal thoughts on the topic.

Just wanted to say thanks for this post, didn't want to quote the whole thing to save space but I like learning new things so will deffo look into this ( (cis)heteropatriarchy)

[Levitating]

I understand you all are trying to fight toxic masculinity, but... I wonder if we can actually relate these statements/stories in the video to Phil's supposed adherence to socially 'forced' stereotypes?

Anything in our tastes comes from social constructions, literally anything - unless you count biology.

Which means that yeah, we can question our tastes, but there's no need to "force" anything else, if a first question doesn't spark further interest - and as long as we learn to respect others' "unsocial" tastes.

And for him that question has not sparked anything, so maybe that's all that you could say on the matter?

Mostly because we know about his mom's anecdote because he chose to publish it; we have seen him wearing a girly cat-maid costume because he has chosen to. So he's not disgusted by such "slips", he is respectful, has tried, and simply does not like them and there's no need for him to further question it since he's happy for others to try.

Dan would need to study sociology to speak properly, but I for now truly appreciate how much he already knows but mostly how much he wants to know. I've always felt he was scared to express opinions (as said in BIG) because he knows he is not fully educated on a topic and thus people will risk misinterpret his intentions.

[fruitcriminals]

Yeah I deffo think they have come along way and I hope they comment themselves. For going on a sort of 'personal growth journey' literally AT ALL and for caring to share it. The overwhelming majority of people in life have their thing they decide is their thing from quite young, and never care to develop themselves in any way at all for the rest of their life and those that do share it often go so far off the deep end it's not relatable at all (for example going to some wildly expensive mountain retreat, obsessing over yoga and spending an hour a day meditating when other people need to like...still do the ironing and pay the gas bill).

Nobody's perfect but the fact that they gradually try and develop themselves over time or even just to question things in society and share it in a relatable way, I appreciate that.

[alittledizzy]

Rose and Rosie just did a Prime TV UK spon.... which makes me wonder if Phil's video for this weekend is the same thing? I really hadn't expected a video from him before they moved but if a sweet deal landed on his desk that he couldn't pass up, that'd make sense.

I'm also gonna be disappointed now if it doesn't have to do with old pictures.

[BlueSnoko]

This is something I'm quite passionate about,

I agree with everything you wrote in this post, (I too am passionate about the subject) but am still confused as to how jeans are a function of the patriarchy. They seem pretty androgynous as a fashion item to me. Especially skinny jeans.

It's an idea I feel like Dan has been playing with/mulling over for a while but the short ways in which he shows it feel confusing and incomplete.

Absoulutely, I feel like he has been exploring the androcentrism of society and how he fits into it. As you pointed out homophobia is essentially an expression of misogyny, a tool for protecting male power structures, and I think in addressing his internalized homophobia Dan was forced to question these existing power structures, which set him on this thought path. I think his communication of this seems confusing and incomplete because he is still working through it all himself.

I wrote down my thoughts about it over the weekend and was planning to add more after this show, but there's so much to unpack from this stream that I'm just going to share what I have now and explore/share my thoughts on Quarantine Queers later in a seperate post.

Anyhoo

little kid pic, BIG, had me thinking about Dan's relationship with having feminine qualities/mannerisms/etc.
(also low, lowkey and I haven't mentioned it much cause it's just a vibe and I don't wanna start shit or people theorizing or reading into things too much when we really know nothing but I've been getting idk,,, ~~vibes~~ of Dan dealing with some gender feelings™ recently?? from some things he's said and latched onto in conversation. but idk, maybe forget I said this)

Ok, also against starting shit or crazy theorizing but I've been noticing Dan's attitude towards gender since I started following Deppy a few months ago. It's been a repetitive niggle on my brain so when Inanerat made this comment I decide I would just lay out my observations.

I want to be clear that I am making no definitive statements about Dan. As someone who is nonbinary I've firsthand experience people voicing opinions on my gender. The only one who can define a person's experience of gender is the person themself.

So I first noticed the way Dan talked about gender in BIG. It was the first thing I ever saw of either Dan or Phil. I was aware of them peripherally but really had no references for they were. In BIG, Dan overtly stated that he was cisgendered, while pointing out his privileges (respect to that). He followed it up with the statement **"But being a man means nothing to me."** He went on to say that he feels neither particularly attached to masculinity or adverse to femininity. He stated that the ability to not care about gender is a cisgendered privilege and that trans peoples care a lot about gender. This didn't ring quite true to me. Yes, many cis people don't worry about gender, and binary trans people often care a lot about gender and gender presentation. However, there are definitely nb people who do not. I know quite a lot of nonbinary folk, including myself, who mostly disregard gender, aren't particularly bothered by their given pronoun (I use they/them in forums & rl queer social circles but in day to day life I mostly don't bother) and mostly just live their lives. I didn't even realize that there were people who actually *felt* like a gender till I was well into my twenties. I just thought everyone just went along with gender things because society. Anyway, Dan finished explaining his attitude towards gender by saying **"Might as well call me a fucking formless blob that sounds more relatable."**

Shapeless blob is a popular expression of genderless-ness among nonbinary people on the internet. It's part of a larger fad of describing a hard to define object and then comparing that to yourself - amorphous cloud, formless blob swarm if bees, etc. It says through analogy that one's gender is not definable by culture's traditional categories.
So in using this he is subtly connecting himself to the concept of being non binary. Dan did, in BIG, connect the term formless blob to a hesitancy to define oneself by labels, but nonbinary people on the internet will read it as a nod to enby culture and he's absolutely aware of that. In BIG he say, **"Shout out to all my formless blobs out there, rise up. I don’t have to do anything or be anything and I personally wouldn’t feel offended if I wasn’t referred to as a he."**

Dan further displayed his understanding of the common meaning of formles blob in their recent Stereo show, **Bubble Wrap Boys** where they played *Hearthrob*. Phil called out the game's problematic nature in regards to gender roles and suggests they are undermining them by playing the game as **"boys who like boys bitch"** Dan laughs but lauds Phil for **showing it to the 80s board game industry with their gender roles** Then he says **Whether you're a girl who like boys, a boy who likes boys, or a blob who likes nothing and nobody (we can all play this games together today)** He clearly parallels "boy who likes boys" with "blob who likes nothing and nobody," equating formless blobs to nothing aka a lack of gender, which is of course not the only way to be non binary but shows his understanding of the term. Between Big and the last Stereo Show, he has used he has used the term formless blob multiple times, in various social media.

He also participated in a charity livestream for the Trans UK Charity, Mermaids. When introducing himself he said **"Hi I'm Dan, prounons are... he him, I guess, but you can call me whatever you want"** He hesitated before giving his pronouns, and rolled his eyes after saying them.

Dan is very good as using language, and well versed in it's subtleties. He chooses his words carefully. I am always impressed by his handling of language. An example of this is when he used 'they' to refer to Phil in BIG, who to my knowledge defines as cis. I believe he did this in order to drive home the point that their connection was/is about so much more than physical attraction. In a video where is is coming out as attracted to men, describing someone he loves in a genderless way makes a very powerful statement and underlines his point that their shared identities of best friends, soulmates etc. are just as valid and important and not falsehoods covering "what they really are" as has been said about them.

I've noticed that formless blob has begun to outweigh other similar expressions on the internet, and even the formless blob illustration done by Shittywatercolor for BIG had been taken into use by enbies.

I want to once more make it clear that I sm making no defining statements about Dan. It's not my place to decide who or what he is. I'm pointing out that he's been verbally referencing concepts of non binary gender. These things could be voiced for so many reason and from so many places.

[onemoresock]

It's an idea I feel like Dan has been playing with/mulling over for a while but the short ways in which he shows it feel confusing and incomplete.

Absoulutely, I feel like he has been exploring the androcentrism of society and how he fits into it. As you pointed out homophobia is essentially an expression of misogyny, a tool for protecting male power structures, and I think in addressing his internalized homophobia Dan was forced to question these existing power structures, which set him on this thought path. I think his communication of this seems confusing and incomplete because he is still working through it all himself.

i don’t want to quote your entire post for length, but this discussion has been so interesting for me because for me, at least, Dan’s own word choices around his gender actually prompted me to start working through my own relationship with my gender. i related to the phrase “formless blob” a little too hard.

i’ve by no means managed to get further than “give me every pronoun you have going” but (and this is not meant to put anything on dan at all, his gender is his own), it’s just interesting (and so comforting) to read this post and your thoughts about dan’s own communications on his gender when that’s a huge part of what helped me start even considering breaking down my own gender thoughts.

[lefthandedism]

Ok, also against starting shit or crazy theorizing but I've been noticing Dan's attitude towards gender since I started following Deppy a few months ago. It's been a repetitive niggle on my brain so when Inanerat made this comment I decide I would just lay out my observations.

I want to be clear that I am making no definitive statements about Dan. As someone who is nonbinary I've firsthand experience people voicing opinions on my gender. The only one who can define a person's experience of gender is the person themself.

So I first noticed the way Dan talked about gender in BIG. It was the first thing I ever saw of either Dan or Phil. I was aware of them peripherally but really had no references for they were. In BIG, Dan overtly stated that he was cisgendered, while pointing out his privileges (respect to that). He followed it up with the statement **"But being a man means nothing to me."** He went on to say that he feels neither particularly attached to masculinity or adverse to femininity. He stated that the ability to not care about gender is a cisgendered privilege and that trans peoples care a lot about gender. This didn't ring quite true to me. Yes, many cis people don't worry about gender, and binary trans people often care a lot about gender and gender presentation. However, there are definitely nb people who do not. I know quite a lot of nonbinary folk, including myself, who mostly disregard gender, aren't particularly bothered by their given pronoun (I use they/them in forums & rl queer social circles but in day to day life I mostly don't bother) and mostly just live their lives. I didn't even realize that there were people who actually *felt* like a gender till I was well into my twenties. I just thought everyone just went along with gender things because society. Anyway, Dan finished explaining his attitude towards gender by saying **"Might as well call me a fucking formless blob that sounds more relatable."**

Shapeless blob is a popular expression of genderless-ness among nonbinary people on the internet. It's part of a larger fad of describing a hard to define object and then comparing that to yourself - amorphous cloud, formless blob swarm if bees, etc. It says through analogy that one's gender is not definable by culture's traditional categories.
So in using this he is subtly connecting himself to the concept of being non binary. Dan did, in BIG, connect the term formless blob to a hesitancy to define oneself by labels, but nonbinary people on the internet will read it as a nod to enby culture and he's absolutely aware of that. In BIG he say, **"Shout out to all my formless blobs out there, rise up. I don’t have to do anything or be anything and I personally wouldn’t feel offended if I wasn’t referred to as a he."**

Dan further displayed his understanding of the common meaning of formles blob in their recent Stereo show, **Bubble Wrap Boys** where they played *Hearthrob*. Phil called out the game's problematic nature in regards to gender roles and suggests they are undermining them by playing the game as **"boys who like boys bitch"** Dan laughs but lauds Phil for **showing it to the 80s board game industry with their gender roles** Then he says **Whether you're a girl who like boys, a boy who likes boys, or a blob who likes nothing and nobody (we can all play this games together today)** He clearly parallels "boy who likes boys" with "blob who likes nothing and nobody," equating formless blobs to nothing aka a lack of gender, which is of course not the only way to be non binary but shows his understanding of the term. Between Big and the last Stereo Show, he has used he has used the term formless blob multiple times, in various social media.

He also participated in a charity livestream for the Trans UK Charity, Mermaids. When introducing himself he said **"Hi I'm Dan, prounons are... he him, I guess, but you can call me whatever you want"** He hesitated before giving his pronouns, and rolled his eyes after saying them.

Dan is very good as using language, and well versed in it's subtleties. He chooses his words carefully. I am always impressed by his handling of language. An example of this is when he used 'they' to refer to Phil in BIG, who to my knowledge defines as cis. I believe he did this in order to drive home the point that their connection was/is about so much more than physical attraction. In a video where is is coming out as attracted to men, describing someone he loves in a genderless way makes a very powerful statement and underlines his point that their shared identities of best friends, soulmates etc. are just as valid and important and not falsehoods covering "what they really are" as has been said about them.

I've noticed that formless blob has begun to outweigh other similar expressions on the internet, and even the formless blob illustration done by Shittywatercolor for BIG had been taken into use by enbies.

I want to once more make it clear that I sm making no defining statements about Dan. It's not my place to decide who or what he is. I'm pointing out that he's been verbally referencing concepts of non binary gender. These things could be voiced for so many reason and from so many places.

Wow! I live for textual analysis of BIG.

When Basically I'm Gay came out, we were all floored by the headline (I can remember exactly where I was sitting when I saw the tweet). I think in some ways the phandom has never got beyond that headline, except of course the bit about Phil. But Dan spent a year crafting a massive text, and not a word was wasted or out of place. I am delighted that you've done some analysis of the non-binary language in particular, which is a perspective I am less familiar with. It's especially interesting that you bring that perspective to the text about Phil to suggest something new about that well-studied piece.

Dan says so much in BIG and I think a lot of it has gone relatively unexamined. I'm all for more in depth textual analysis!

I know a lot of people are worried that Dan's upcoming book could be harmful to some people's mental health. My concern about the book is that it may be general-audience self-help bland. I'd be much more interested to read more of Dan's original thinking along the lines of BIG.

[casualsun]

So I first noticed the way Dan talked about gender in BIG. It was the first thing I ever saw of either Dan or Phil. I was aware of them peripherally but really had no references for they were. In BIG, Dan overtly stated that he was cisgendered, while pointing out his privileges (respect to that). He followed it up with the statement **"But being a man means nothing to me."** He went on to say that he feels neither particularly attached to masculinity or adverse to femininity. He stated that the ability to not care about gender is a cisgendered privilege and that trans peoples care a lot about gender. This didn't ring quite true to me. Yes, many cis people don't worry about gender, and binary trans people often care a lot about gender and gender presentation. However, there are definitely nb people who do not. I know quite a lot of nonbinary folk, including myself, who mostly disregard gender, aren't particularly bothered by their given pronoun (I use they/them in forums & rl queer social circles but in day to day life I mostly don't bother) and mostly just live their lives. I didn't even realize that there were people who actually *felt* like a gender till I was well into my twenties. I just thought everyone just went along with gender things because society. Anyway, Dan finished explaining his attitude towards gender by saying **"Might as well call me a fucking formless blob that sounds more relatable."**

First of all, I really liked your post and found it both informative an interesting. However, I’m not super informed regarding non-binary rhetoric and there is one thing that confuses me. Feel free to ignore this is you don’t want to explain it to me!

You say that you thought everyone went along with gender because of society, and realized that experience was actually unique to you. But isn’t the experience of gender created by society for everyone? We aren’t born with ideas of masculinity and femininity hardwired into our brains; they are formed throughout years of growing up in a society which clearly defines masculine and feminine behavior and physical appearance. I guess I have the same mentality as Dan in BIG. I just don’t really understand what feelings of gender are based on if it isn’t societal norms and expectations.

[madytastic]

This is something I'm quite passionate about,

I agree with everything you wrote in this post, (I too am passionate about the subject) but am still confused as to how jeans are a function of the patriarchy. They seem pretty androgynous as a fashion item to me. Especially skinny jeans.

It's an idea I feel like Dan has been playing with/mulling over for a while but the short ways in which he shows it feel confusing and incomplete.

Absoulutely, I feel like he has been exploring the androcentrism of society and how he fits into it. As you pointed out homophobia is essentially an expression of misogyny, a tool for protecting male power structures, and I think in addressing his internalized homophobia Dan was forced to question these existing power structures, which set him on this thought path. I think his communication of this seems confusing and incomplete because he is still working through it all himself.

I wrote down my thoughts about it over the weekend and was planning to add more after this show, but there's so much to unpack from this stream that I'm just going to share what I have now and explore/share my thoughts on Quarantine Queers later in a seperate post.

Anyhoo

little kid pic, BIG, had me thinking about Dan's relationship with having feminine qualities/mannerisms/etc.
(also low, lowkey and I haven't mentioned it much cause it's just a vibe and I don't wanna start shit or people theorizing or reading into things too much when we really know nothing but I've been getting idk,,, ~~vibes~~ of Dan dealing with some gender feelings™ recently?? from some things he's said and latched onto in conversation. but idk, maybe forget I said this)

Ok, also against starting shit or crazy theorizing but I've been noticing Dan's attitude towards gender since I started following Deppy a few months ago. It's been a repetitive niggle on my brain so when Inanerat made this comment I decide I would just lay out my observations.

I want to be clear that I am making no definitive statements about Dan. As someone who is nonbinary I've firsthand experience people voicing opinions on my gender. The only one who can define a person's experience of gender is the person themself.

So I first noticed the way Dan talked about gender in BIG. It was the first thing I ever saw of either Dan or Phil. I was aware of them peripherally but really had no references for they were. In BIG, Dan overtly stated that he was cisgendered, while pointing out his privileges (respect to that). He followed it up with the statement **"But being a man means nothing to me."** He went on to say that he feels neither particularly attached to masculinity or adverse to femininity. He stated that the ability to not care about gender is a cisgendered privilege and that trans peoples care a lot about gender. This didn't ring quite true to me. Yes, many cis people don't worry about gender, and binary trans people often care a lot about gender and gender presentation. However, there are definitely nb people who do not. I know quite a lot of nonbinary folk, including myself, who mostly disregard gender, aren't particularly bothered by their given pronoun (I use they/them in forums & rl queer social circles but in day to day life I mostly don't bother) and mostly just live their lives. I didn't even realize that there were people who actually *felt* like a gender till I was well into my twenties. I just thought everyone just went along with gender things because society. Anyway, Dan finished explaining his attitude towards gender by saying **"Might as well call me a fucking formless blob that sounds more relatable."**

Shapeless blob is a popular expression of genderless-ness among nonbinary people on the internet. It's part of a larger fad of describing a hard to define object and then comparing that to yourself - amorphous cloud, formless blob swarm if bees, etc. It says through analogy that one's gender is not definable by culture's traditional categories.
So in using this he is subtly connecting himself to the concept of being non binary. Dan did, in BIG, connect the term formless blob to a hesitancy to define oneself by labels, but nonbinary people on the internet will read it as a nod to enby culture and he's absolutely aware of that. In BIG he say, **"Shout out to all my formless blobs out there, rise up. I don’t have to do anything or be anything and I personally wouldn’t feel offended if I wasn’t referred to as a he."**

Dan further displayed his understanding of the common meaning of formles blob in their recent Stereo show, **Bubble Wrap Boys** where they played *Hearthrob*. Phil called out the game's problematic nature in regards to gender roles and suggests they are undermining them by playing the game as **"boys who like boys bitch"** Dan laughs but lauds Phil for **showing it to the 80s board game industry with their gender roles** Then he says **Whether you're a girl who like boys, a boy who likes boys, or a blob who likes nothing and nobody (we can all play this games together today)** He clearly parallels "boy who likes boys" with "blob who likes nothing and nobody," equating formless blobs to nothing aka a lack of gender, which is of course not the only way to be non binary but shows his understanding of the term. Between Big and the last Stereo Show, he has used he has used the term formless blob multiple times, in various social media.

He also participated in a charity livestream for the Trans UK Charity, Mermaids. When introducing himself he said **"Hi I'm Dan, prounons are... he him, I guess, but you can call me whatever you want"** He hesitated before giving his pronouns, and rolled his eyes after saying them.

Dan is very good as using language, and well versed in it's subtleties. He chooses his words carefully. I am always impressed by his handling of language. An example of this is when he used 'they' to refer to Phil in BIG, who to my knowledge defines as cis. I believe he did this in order to drive home the point that their connection was/is about so much more than physical attraction. In a video where is is coming out as attracted to men, describing someone he loves in a genderless way makes a very powerful statement and underlines his point that their shared identities of best friends, soulmates etc. are just as valid and important and not falsehoods covering "what they really are" as has been said about them.

I've noticed that formless blob has begun to outweigh other similar expressions on the internet, and even the formless blob illustration done by Shittywatercolor for BIG had been taken into use by enbies.

I want to once more make it clear that I sm making no defining statements about Dan. It's not my place to decide who or what he is. I'm pointing out that he's been verbally referencing concepts of non binary gender. These things could be voiced for so many reason and from so many places.

Hidden under spoiler for length, and I don't have much to add, but I just wanted to acknowledge that this was really interesting to read and I'll probably be thinking about it all day.

[inanerat]

This is something I'm quite passionate about,

I agree with everything you wrote in this post, (I too am passionate about the subject) but am still confused as to how jeans are a function of the patriarchy. They seem pretty androgynous as a fashion item to me. Especially skinny jeans.

It's an idea I feel like Dan has been playing with/mulling over for a while but the short ways in which he shows it feel confusing and incomplete.

Absoulutely, I feel like he has been exploring the androcentrism of society and how he fits into it. As you pointed out homophobia is essentially an expression of misogyny, a tool for protecting male power structures, and I think in addressing his internalized homophobia Dan was forced to question these existing power structures, which set him on this thought path. I think his communication of this seems confusing and incomplete because he is still working through it all himself.

I wrote down my thoughts about it over the weekend and was planning to add more after this show, but there's so much to unpack from this stream that I'm just going to share what I have now and explore/share my thoughts on Quarantine Queers later in a seperate post.

Anyhoo

little kid pic, BIG, had me thinking about Dan's relationship with having feminine qualities/mannerisms/etc.
(also low, lowkey and I haven't mentioned it much cause it's just a vibe and I don't wanna start shit or people theorizing or reading into things too much when we really know nothing but I've been getting idk,,, ~~vibes~~ of Dan dealing with some gender feelings™ recently?? from some things he's said and latched onto in conversation. but idk, maybe forget I said this)

Ok, also against starting shit or crazy theorizing but I've been noticing Dan's attitude towards gender since I started following Deppy a few months ago. It's been a repetitive niggle on my brain so when Inanerat made this comment I decide I would just lay out my observations.

I want to be clear that I am making no definitive statements about Dan. As someone who is nonbinary I've firsthand experience people voicing opinions on my gender. The only one who can define a person's experience of gender is the person themself.

So I first noticed the way Dan talked about gender in BIG. It was the first thing I ever saw of either Dan or Phil. I was aware of them peripherally but really had no references for they were. In BIG, Dan overtly stated that he was cisgendered, while pointing out his privileges (respect to that). He followed it up with the statement **"But being a man means nothing to me."** He went on to say that he feels neither particularly attached to masculinity or adverse to femininity. He stated that the ability to not care about gender is a cisgendered privilege and that trans peoples care a lot about gender. This didn't ring quite true to me. Yes, many cis people don't worry about gender, and binary trans people often care a lot about gender and gender presentation. However, there are definitely nb people who do not. I know quite a lot of nonbinary folk, including myself, who mostly disregard gender, aren't particularly bothered by their given pronoun (I use they/them in forums & rl queer social circles but in day to day life I mostly don't bother) and mostly just live their lives. I didn't even realize that there were people who actually *felt* like a gender till I was well into my twenties. I just thought everyone just went along with gender things because society. Anyway, Dan finished explaining his attitude towards gender by saying **"Might as well call me a fucking formless blob that sounds more relatable."**

Shapeless blob is a popular expression of genderless-ness among nonbinary people on the internet. It's part of a larger fad of describing a hard to define object and then comparing that to yourself - amorphous cloud, formless blob swarm if bees, etc. It says through analogy that one's gender is not definable by culture's traditional categories.
So in using this he is subtly connecting himself to the concept of being non binary. Dan did, in BIG, connect the term formless blob to a hesitancy to define oneself by labels, but nonbinary people on the internet will read it as a nod to enby culture and he's absolutely aware of that. In BIG he say, **"Shout out to all my formless blobs out there, rise up. I don’t have to do anything or be anything and I personally wouldn’t feel offended if I wasn’t referred to as a he."**

Dan further displayed his understanding of the common meaning of formles blob in their recent Stereo show, **Bubble Wrap Boys** where they played *Hearthrob*. Phil called out the game's problematic nature in regards to gender roles and suggests they are undermining them by playing the game as **"boys who like boys bitch"** Dan laughs but lauds Phil for **showing it to the 80s board game industry with their gender roles** Then he says **Whether you're a girl who like boys, a boy who likes boys, or a blob who likes nothing and nobody (we can all play this games together today)** He clearly parallels "boy who likes boys" with "blob who likes nothing and nobody," equating formless blobs to nothing aka a lack of gender, which is of course not the only way to be non binary but shows his understanding of the term. Between Big and the last Stereo Show, he has used he has used the term formless blob multiple times, in various social media.

He also participated in a charity livestream for the Trans UK Charity, Mermaids. When introducing himself he said **"Hi I'm Dan, prounons are... he him, I guess, but you can call me whatever you want"** He hesitated before giving his pronouns, and rolled his eyes after saying them.

Dan is very good as using language, and well versed in it's subtleties. He chooses his words carefully. I am always impressed by his handling of language. An example of this is when he used 'they' to refer to Phil in BIG, who to my knowledge defines as cis. I believe he did this in order to drive home the point that their connection was/is about so much more than physical attraction. In a video where is is coming out as attracted to men, describing someone he loves in a genderless way makes a very powerful statement and underlines his point that their shared identities of best friends, soulmates etc. are just as valid and important and not falsehoods covering "what they really are" as has been said about them.

I've noticed that formless blob has begun to outweigh other similar expressions on the internet, and even the formless blob illustration done by Shittywatercolor for BIG had been taken into use by enbies.

I want to once more make it clear that I sm making no defining statements about Dan. It's not my place to decide who or what he is. I'm pointing out that he's been verbally referencing concepts of non binary gender. These things could be voiced for so many reason and from so many places.

All of this post!

While I mentioned it in my previous post, and it's something I definitely relate to as an anxious, avoidant and somewhat insecure person, is the way Dan toys with ideas for soooooo long before really confronting them and hitting them on the head. Honestly I think his sexuality is the clearest example of this, clearly with a lot of emotional and trauma issues attached, as he at times would tease the line of his sexuality but never make any solid statement about it, more and more over time until the point where him coming out as queer/gay in BIG was really not a massive surprise to anyone. I find it a very interesting pattern of his, and something he does with other ideas that he's really mulling over for a while as well (things like depression and mental health, as well as other smaller things). It also serves a very interesting purpose (intentional or not) where he becomes relatable to those who feel similarly without putting a label on himself or boxing himself in. Of course without the directness it also leads to people having varying interpretations and going after each other about it.

Since lefthandedism is here for more BIG analysis, let's have a little more! Maybe it is something people have discussed before but I haven't really ever seen it discussed and it's something that has always stuck with my from BIG.

But one of the other big fears holding me back was honestly, that I wouldn't be accepted by the community. I know that it's a big pride flag covering a lot of ground and even the idea of it and certainly most of it is amazing, but there is a lot of drama within it right now, especially on the internet.

This is something I definitely personally relate to, there's a beauty in community on the internet but also an ugly side, and one that can feel terrifying and petrifying when you've put all this work into coming to terms with yourself, finding an identity that you think is right for you, needing nothing more than for people to say 'I see you, I love you', only to be exposed to all this community turmoil and sometimes really nasty debates over validity. And like he mentions in this part of BIG, straight up homophobia from people is easier to deal with 'cause you just don't agree and can be like 'ok I don't care about your shitty opinion' while when it's people from your own community it feels so, so different. (Which talking about identities and so forth is a good thing imo, but a lot of it doesn't feel productive and just feels like dragging people down.) I would love to know if the positive reaction to Dan and BIG has changed any of his perspective on this, but I think it proves that he is very much aware of the fact that his identity and experiences with any of this stuff can and will be taken up by people, debated and torn to shreds by some, especially if he doesn't come across exactly as he'd like.

Anyway, the two main things that I remember being on my mind when I made that post about Gender Feelings Vibes were: Dan using they/them to refer to his clone in the Phan CAH video, it was something I hadn't heard him do (maybe 'cause we just haven't heard that much since BIG) and it really hit me like 'oh, maybe we do need to be switching it up some more, ok.'. The second was in the Relocating Roommates show, with this little moment:

P: Ooh, what's the agenda, Dan? The Dangenda.
D: The thing that I want to talk about today- are you- stop, we don't need to- I'm Dangender, yeah, that's my- there we go, formless blob, I'm actually Dangender, we did it.

While quite a quick thing it stood out to me that Dan pulled that out and mentioned it, if only quickly. And also that the idea of a 'dangender', which gives the idea of some gender being there, but it being a unique Dan feeling would appeal to him in someway of describing himself or formless blobness is very interesting and for me, very relatable.
(also reminded me of my favourite lines from Dorian Electra's My Agenda: My agenda/a freaky gender/I'm out here flexing in my/rainbow susupenders) A big mood.

idk where all I'm going with this, I figured I'd just share some of my thoughts. I will sit here continuing to observe and notice these things, I guess.
p.s. if anyone ever wants to talk gender feels/just have someone to talk to/process gender thoughts with, my PMs are 100% open. There are many different places to find community, but talking to other people about their experiences was one of the most amazing things for me when I was first exploring and figuring out my gender, and I am totally here if anyone needs any of that.

Also I'm going to miss the stereo today because I have therapy (smh @ timezone changes) so I will have to listen back afterwards. I hope it is a good one and doesn't need to send me back to therapy after I've listened to it