Dan & Phil Part 28: Possibly very gay

[violet-writer]

not to be ~that guy~ but I see the convo about people wondering if there are casual fans and when/why/how people started shipping them i.e. the directory, and I'm old af so I thought i'd give my insight?

I started watching phil in early 2008 waaaaay before dan (my favorite vid is and will always be The Basket and I am STILL upset most people havent watched it because it is 10/10). Anyways, when Dan came on the scene things were really not a big deal? like, phil had been hinting a while that he was lonely and wanted a relationship, and then dan shows up and everyone was just like 'oh, that's phil's new boyfriend, cool'. and it wasn't really a shipping thing, it was just kind of assumed and no one made a thing out of it? deppy didn't correct it and everyone went about their business trying to get to know this new guy phil was so infatuated with (i mean, obvioulsy dan was also hilarious af)

I eventually (2011) left the internet for personal reasons (lol school), and i didnt come back till mid 2013 when shit was hitting the fan. I literally came back and i was like WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE INTERNET'S CHILL?!

But yeah, the whole 'shipping' thing wasnt really picking up steam and going crazy back when they first met, so now im like ??? obviously they're together? they always have been? why do we even need to question this? and then things like the timeline were nice because i could point to it and be like 'im not crazy, i lived through that, it was obvious and we thought it was cute but no one cared or made a huge fuss over it'. so now when people argue over if they're together im just like ??? when will this end? i miss 2009??

In 2009, it was easy to assume they were together, based on.. well, the way they interacted. Now, people question because it is not easy to assume they are together. They consistently tell us, "we are not together" through their actions. So that's where the mystery of it plays in. I started watching around 2011, and assumed they were bros.
When I became a bigger fan, I started watching old videos.. was my general emotion. I can see why one would assume they were dating, basically. (AmazingDan, anyone- one of the most UST videos of theirs)

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[SquishPhan]

not to be ~that guy~ but I see the convo about people wondering if there are casual fans and when/why/how people started shipping them i.e. the directory, and I'm old af so I thought i'd give my insight?

I started watching phil in early 2008 waaaaay before dan (my favorite vid is and will always be The Basket and I am STILL upset most people havent watched it because it is 10/10). Anyways, when Dan came on the scene things were really not a big deal? like, phil had been hinting a while that he was lonely and wanted a relationship, and then dan shows up and everyone was just like 'oh, that's phil's new boyfriend, cool'. and it wasn't really a shipping thing, it was just kind of assumed and no one made a thing out of it? deppy didn't correct it and everyone went about their business trying to get to know this new guy phil was so infatuated with (i mean, obvioulsy dan was also hilarious af)

I eventually (2011) left the internet for personal reasons (lol school), and i didnt come back till mid 2013 when shit was hitting the fan. I literally came back and i was like WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE INTERNET'S CHILL?!

But yeah, the whole 'shipping' thing wasnt really picking up steam and going crazy back when they first met, so now im like ??? obviously they're together? they always have been? why do we even need to question this? and then things like the timeline were nice because i could point to it and be like 'im not crazy, i lived through that, it was obvious and we thought it was cute but no one cared or made a huge fuss over it'. so now when people argue over if they're together im just like ??? when will this end? i miss 2009??

I always find it very interesting to hear from people who were fans back in the day, so this was really nice to read and gave me a few new insights.

[offtopic][/offtopic] but I had a dream that dan was eating phils trash (like leftovers n stuff) and idk what to feel about it.

[papierklemmen]

not to be ~that guy~ but I see the convo about people wondering if there are casual fans and when/why/how people started shipping them i.e. the directory, and I'm old af so I thought i'd give my insight?

I started watching phil in early 2008 waaaaay before dan (my favorite vid is and will always be The Basket and I am STILL upset most people havent watched it because it is 10/10). Anyways, when Dan came on the scene things were really not a big deal? like, phil had been hinting a while that he was lonely and wanted a relationship, and then dan shows up and everyone was just like 'oh, that's phil's new boyfriend, cool'. and it wasn't really a shipping thing, it was just kind of assumed and no one made a thing out of it? deppy didn't correct it and everyone went about their business trying to get to know this new guy phil was so infatuated with (i mean, obvioulsy dan was also hilarious af)

I eventually (2011) left the internet for personal reasons (lol school), and i didnt come back till mid 2013 when shit was hitting the fan. I literally came back and i was like WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THE INTERNET'S CHILL?!

But yeah, the whole 'shipping' thing wasnt really picking up steam and going crazy back when they first met, so now im like ??? obviously they're together? they always have been? why do we even need to question this? and then things like the timeline were nice because i could point to it and be like 'im not crazy, i lived through that, it was obvious and we thought it was cute but no one cared or made a huge fuss over it'. so now when people argue over if they're together im just like ??? when will this end? i miss 2009??

turnip, is that you

i mean, it's hard to just keep assuming when someone straight up tells you "we are NOT dating, how can you be so dense???? sucking phil's dick = licking your grandma's vagina!! ew, that's gross right? that's how i feel when you mention it!" (paraphrase ofc)

[alittledizzy]

btw re: hetenormativity - i would say assuming that two guys are in a relationship just because they do certain things associated with romance (e.g. being touchy-feely, or from their twitter interactions: saying "i love (name)", calling someone "bby/baby", sending each other "hearts", longing after each other) when the same doesn't usually apply to two girls, could fall under being heteronormative because that means we have certain "standarts" on how male friends should behave around each other.

so it's not that easy!

I get the argument you're trying to make but here's where my own bias comes into play because as a girl who likes girls, if I see girls saying they love each other, calling each other "bby" and longing for each other my basic assumption would be that they've got something going on. And the fact that as someone with a majority lgbtq friendbase what I see when I look at same sex interactions that seem romantic is the potential for it to be romantic proves my point the other way around too, that people who are conditioned to expect everything to be straight (not because of a specific person being homophobic; just because we are a product of our environment and upbringing) are going to look at two guys being flirtatious and still just assume it's a friendship.

I hope it's clear here that when I say this I'm not talking about fans invested enough to be on a message board reading other people's opinions. eevee asked:

But are there casual fans who don't google dan and phil? Like, just watch them for the content, and aren't into the relationship? who knows......

So when I answer I'm talking about fans who just watch the videos, the actual casual fans who aren't involved in fandom. Because there are a lot of those people. A hundred thousand engaged fans on twitter vs 2-3 million views on youtube per video? Yeah. A lot of them.

[sinnamonrollphil]

i mean, it's hard to just keep assuming when someone straight up tells you "we are NOT dating, how can you be so dense???? sucking phil's dick = licking your grandma's vagina!! ew, that's gross right? that's how i feel when you mention it!" (paraphrase ofc)

Yeah, that's why when i came back i was like because i was like WHAT HAPPENED? i get why people were so wtf and didnt believe they were together with the 2013 ridiculousness, but idk i never really thought he was telling the truth. it was so melodramatic and i could easily see through his motivation for lying and relate to it, so i just kind of went 'lol why are you doing this' and moved on, but i was never like 'obviously they're just bros' but i understand why that would make sense to a lot of people even if it never made sense to me personally

[violet-writer]

[offtopic]Mods, please help! I have a request for the forum & I'm unsure where to make that request.. is there a 'requests' forum? I scoured the site and didn't see, so I was unsure how to contact a Mod, as it's not a big deal/issue. I think a little side bar poll would be cool to have. Like where you can vote for things related to like 'Which is your favorite channel' or 'Whats your favorite video this month?' Silly things like that! Just think it'd be a fun idea.[/offtopic]

[Winston]

I get the argument you're trying to make but here's where my own bias comes into play because as a girl who likes girls, if I see girls saying they love each other, calling each other "bby" and longing for each other my basic assumption would be that they've got something going on. And the fact that as someone with a majority lgbtq friendbase what I see when I look at same sex interactions that seem romantic is the potential for it to be romantic proves my point the other way around too, that people who are conditioned to expect everything to be straight (not because of a specific person being homophobic; just because we are a product of our environment and upbringing) are going to look at two guys being flirtatious and still just assume it's a friendship.

This.

I have always noticed this kind of thing "but girls do it all the time..." Not all girls do it. yes there is (generally) a certain type of girl who is overly flirtatious with their friends, but the way people talk about it makes it sound like all women talk like that. I am with dizzy and when I see this kind of interaction be it women or men talking I can assume the possibility of a romantic relationship. It is just two people flirting with each other so why would that possibility be off the table?

[trashqueen]

btw re: hetenormativity - i would say assuming that two guys are in a relationship just because they do certain things associated with romance (e.g. being touchy-feely, or from their twitter interactions: saying "i love (name)", calling someone "bby/baby", sending each other "hearts", longing after each other) when the same doesn't usually apply to two girls, could fall under being heteronormative because that means we have certain "standarts" on how male friends should behave around each other.

wat

the fact that gay girls can literally be in a relationship not hiding it at all and society/the media insists on calling them 'close friends' and 'gal pals' (lmao one of the greatest memes of 2014) is also heteronormative, it proves that people don't see female romantic relationships as valid (example: the kristen stewart situation)

dudes not being affectionate with each other has nothing to do with that, that has to do with patriarchy and masculinity bullshit, with affection being perceived as a female thing and therefore it being proof of weakness

even when that is a parallel problem, it is heteronormative to see two people of the same gender behaving 100% like a couple and still think they are obviously just friends, it doesn't matter if you think they also fit the 'close friend' criteria, if you automatically go to friend and dismiss the very valid possibility that they are a couple, that's heteronormative

also, kind of off topic, but i feel like straight girls have a weird perception of normal female friendships as way more romantic than they are that they use to validate themselves as less homophobic than dudes, and honestly from my perspective romantic and platonic girl/girl relationships are really easy to tell apart, yes girls hug and sit on each other laps and so on, but a friend hug is really different from a girlfriend hug

edit: ah fuck, dizzy posted the exact same thing faster, whatever i'm posting this anyway

[SquishPhan]

btw re: hetenormativity - i would say assuming that two guys are in a relationship just because they do certain things associated with romance (e.g. being touchy-feely, or from their twitter interactions: saying "i love (name)", calling someone "bby/baby", sending each other "hearts", longing after each other) when the same doesn't usually apply to two girls, could fall under being heteronormative because that means we have certain "standarts" on how male friends should behave around each other.

so it's not that easy!

I get the argument you're trying to make but here's where my own bias comes into play because as a girl who likes girls, if I see girls saying they love each other, calling each other "bby" and longing for each other my basic assumption would be that they've got something going on. And the fact that as someone with a majority lgbtq friendbase what I see when I look at same sex interactions that seem romantic is the potential for it to be romantic proves my point the other way around too, that people who are conditioned to expect everything to be straight (not because of a specific person being homophobic; just because we are a product of our environment and upbringing) are going to look at two guys being flirtatious and still just assume it's a friendship.

I hope it's clear here that when I say this I'm not talking about fans invested enough to be on a message board reading other people's opinions. eevee asked:

But are there casual fans who don't google dan and phil? Like, just watch them for the content, and aren't into the relationship? who knows......

So when I answer I'm talking about fans who just watch the videos, the actual casual fans who aren't involved in fandom. Because there are a lot of those people. A hundred thousand engaged fans on twitter vs 2-3 million views on youtube per video? Yeah. A lot of them.

Totally agree with you.

i mean, it's hard to just keep assuming when someone straight up tells you "we are NOT dating, how can you be so dense???? sucking phil's dick = licking your grandma's vagina!! ew, that's gross right? that's how i feel when you mention it!" (paraphrase ofc)

Yeah, that's why when i came back i was like because i was like WHAT HAPPENED? i get why people were so wtf and didnt believe they were together with the 2013 ridiculousness, but idk i never really thought he was telling the truth. it was so melodramatic and i could easily see through his motivation for lying and relate to it, so i just kind of went 'lol why are you doing this' and moved on, but i was never like 'obviously they're just bros' but i understand why that would make sense to a lot of people even if it never made sense to me personally

I got into them in 2015, and so found out about 2012 after the fact. But it all sounded so overdramatic and really thought he was having a huge overreaction that it actually made me suspicious. Add to that all that I learned about the previous years, and for me the conclusion was that they are a couple, and he was just desperately trying to hide it.

[eevee]

sucking phil's dick = licking your grandma's vagina!!

I would really like to know why bringing this up is so necessary because i don't care who said it, it's pretty gross and graphic and I don't need that in my life

[melon lord]

I get the argument you're trying to make but here's where my own bias comes into play because as a girl who likes girls, if I see girls saying they love each other, calling each other "bby" and longing for each other my basic assumption would be that they've got something going on. And the fact that as someone with a majority lgbtq friendbase what I see when I look at same sex interactions that seem romantic is the potential for it to be romantic proves my point the other way around too, that people who are conditioned to expect everything to be straight (not because of a specific person being homophobic; just because we are a product of our environment and upbringing) are going to look at two guys being flirtatious and still just assume it's a friendship.

This conundrum actually reminds me of a game I am absolutely trash over, Life is Strange. If you know it, you know what I'm talking about.

If you don't:

The game is a choice based game, but it's not about "winning" or "beating the game", it's about why you choose and how does it matter. It's about friendships, love, loss, trust, making mistakes, fixing mistakes, etc. The protagonist is Max (that's you), and she reunites with her old best friend Chloe. They used to be childhood friends, bffs tied at the hip kind of deal. The game's choices can lead you towards a romantic inclination with Chloe, or a friendship one. Both are equally valid and important, each for their own reasons.

A lot of people playing the game kind of go through a romantic route, either out of excitement like "NOW KISS" style, or they genuinely ship it, or they project what they would want out of a relationship. Despite the rocky parts in their history, Chloe and Max have clear chemistry and a deep affection for each other. It's a companionship I am jealous of, I'll be honest. Same with deppy, I would give so much to have a friend/partner (whichever you prefer) like theirs.

A lot of other people love the friendship route. They absolutely value the idea of a friend so close and so important and the kind of friend you would shift the earth for. They see the friends they have or had, they can only dream for such a level of trust and strength of bond. They want that camaraderie, that closeness.

As you can imagine there is a LOT of fan wars over the friend/girlfriend dilemma. Some people say "yeah but X happened so clearly it's canon and romantic, case closed" and some say "yeah but why is pure friendship always pushed aside for romance? why DOES it have to be romance? why CAN'T you love someone platonically and have it be equal to romantic love? why is sex and romance glorified so much?"

The thing is, it's a videogame about choices. So people making these choices is not always (but not never, either) about the "one" path. When I see fans choose one side, or both (that's me, hello), I see people choosing what they long for. What's important to them. Not that the other choice is unimportant, but it's what they desire more.

Beyond what Dan and Phil really are (which we may never know, tbh), Phan as a separate entity is as ambiguous and fluid as Max and Chloe. Are they platonic friends that have an indestructible bond and trust in each other? Or are they fated lovers that got extremely lucky and have a relationship most of us would kill for? People see in Phan a reflection of what they lack.

Put it this in Harry Potter terms, if you looked into the Mirror of Erised and saw Dan and Phil, almost everyone would see a different dynamic. Some would see friends, some lovers, some both, some neither. That's probably why the pairing is so addictive; it's so "perfect" and cute and admirable that we can't help but see something worth wanting.

Max and Chloe also have ambiguous dialogue and actions. But it's true that two girls being very close and "flirty" is more passable as friendship because girls are socially conditioned to be more physically and emotionally expressive with each other, so when you see two guys act that way you think "that's not normal, they must be together" and that's an important discussion about gender roles and expectations. But it's equally important to say "but why must everything be written off as ~friendship~ and why can't flirting just be, well, flirting?" it's like the tumblr meme "life is hard when u tell a girl she's cute and you intend full homo and she takes no homo", because there is both a need for gender discussion and also a discussion about why flirting is diluted so much to fit a friendship narrative, when it's a same sex couple, almost like avoiding the taboo word.



whoah sorry for the ramble

[jesp]

[offtopic]Mods, please help! I have a request for the forum & I'm unsure where to make that request.. is there a 'requests' forum? I scoured the site and didn't see, so I was unsure how to contact a Mod, as it's not a big deal/issue. I think a little side bar poll would be cool to have. Like where you can vote for things related to like 'Which is your favorite channel' or 'Whats your favorite video this month?' Silly things like that! Just think it'd be a fun idea.[/offtopic]

We have a request thread here, or you can send one of us a PM.

About your suggestion, we can't do it. You can make a thread and use strawpoll to create your own polls, and ask people to vote.

[papierklemmen]

ehh i agree with everything re: assuming that society is heteronormative. i guess i didn't phrase that well enough.
i just think it's a two way street and assuming that someone is NOT straight can be viewed as problematic too - based on their behaviour, mannerisms, looks etc.

not assuming anything is the best way, but it's almost impossible because we live in a society where people are interconnected. and when it comes to deppy, i want to be one of those people who claim they "don't really care" what the relationship is, but here i am being like

edit: i love life is strange, melon lord

[melon lord]

edit: i love life is strange, melon lord

You do? Expect a very gushy PM from me sometime in the near future then

Hey new signature I was watching a PINOF playlist and remembered this gem of slowmo shots and thought, well that's really embarrassing, better gif it

[JoeAverage]

I get the argument you're trying to make but here's where my own bias comes into play because as a girl who likes girls, if I see girls saying they love each other, calling each other "bby" and longing for each other my basic assumption would be that they've got something going on. And the fact that as someone with a majority lgbtq friendbase what I see when I look at same sex interactions that seem romantic is the potential for it to be romantic proves my point the other way around too, that people who are conditioned to expect everything to be straight (not because of a specific person being homophobic; just because we are a product of our environment and upbringing) are going to look at two guys being flirtatious and still just assume it's a friendship.

This.

I have always noticed this kind of thing "but girls do it all the time..." Not all girls do it. yes there is (generally) a certain type of girl who is overly flirtatious with their friends, but the way people talk about it makes it sound like all women talk like that. I am with dizzy and when I see this kind of interaction be it women or men talking I can assume the possibility of a romantic relationship. It is just two people flirting with each other so why would that possibility be off the table?

Same, I think we are living in a society where there are more lgbtqa+ people, most likely because we are given more space to try stuff, "experimenting" (sorry for the term i couldnt think of sth else) is not seen as much as a taboo as before (in some places), and in such, people get to realize that "hey i actually like this better than the hetero way or viceversa" or just read a definition of something and go "hey i could be this!", and with all this how is it possible that we are still seeing everything with hetero googles?? , yes the film industry is helping a tad (thanx netflix) but its 2016 and we still asume everyone is straight until proven wise? people still ask each other if they have a "girlfriend/boyfriend", instead of the perfectly respectable "are you dating anyone?" or a "significant other".
Anyway ik this isnt necessarily deppy related, i just wanted to express my po on this subject.

I love the tweet, "my house" just makes me imagine that they're sitting in front of their laptops looking at property and making ridiculous plans just because they're giddily imagining the future.

If anyone has a good question PM me!

Ask them where's the goose.

please, please ask them where's the goose. Demand it.

Are we still talking about the hashtag or about phils mysterious tweet of "i left the goose on dans room" or sth, a while back?

[eevee]

Beyond what Dan and Phil really are (which we may never know, tbh), Phan as a separate entity is as ambiguous and fluid as Max and Chloe. Are they platonic friends that have an indestructible bond and trust in each other? Or are they fated lovers that got extremely lucky and have a relationship most of us would kill for? People see in Phan a reflection of what they lack.

Okay um, how do people see what they lack in phan? Phan isn't a choose your own adventure game. Phan is a real relationship, whatever the nature, of real human people in the real world right now. There are solid facts. Solid things that happened. Solid things that will happen.

When people look at phan they see what's really there. Or maybe I'm wrong and people look at phan and Dan and Phil's faces contort like a snapchat filter and it becomes your greatest want. Who knows?

I think reducing phan shippers to lonely people who want a SO is kinda........not at all accurate

[melon lord]

Beyond what Dan and Phil really are (which we may never know, tbh), Phan as a separate entity is as ambiguous and fluid as Max and Chloe. Are they platonic friends that have an indestructible bond and trust in each other? Or are they fated lovers that got extremely lucky and have a relationship most of us would kill for? People see in Phan a reflection of what they lack.

Okay um, how do people see what they lack in phan? Phan isn't a choose your own adventure game. Phan is a real relationship, whatever the nature, of real human people in the real world right now. There are solid facts. Solid things that happened. Solid things that will happen.

When people look at phan they see what's really there. Or maybe I'm wrong and people look at phan and Dan and Phil's faces contort like a snapchat filter and it becomes your greatest want. Who knows?

I think reducing phan shippers to lonely people who want a SO is kinda........not at all accurate

I'm not trying to be rude, but I literally said in that post that I'm not talking about Dan and Phil and what they are. I mean "Phan", I mean the fictitious pairing that they present to the world and we consume. There's obviously elements of truth in Phan, but Dan and Phil obviously keep too much private (as is their right) for us to call Phan a completely real thing. Fans have taken it and turned it into some meta-pairing that's its own entity. Hence the 4th wall vibe of the fanfic parts in TATINOF.

[eevee]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I literally said in that post that I'm not talking about Dan and Phil and what they are. I mean "Phan", I mean the fictitious pairing that they present to the world and we consume. There's obviously elements of truth in Phan, but Dan and Phil obviously keep too much private (as is their right) for us to call Phan a completely real thing. Fans have taken it and turned it into some meta-pairing that's its own entity. Hence the 4th wall vibe of the fanfic parts in TATINOF.

That's where we disagree. I see nothing "fictitious" about phan.

[melon lord]

I mean that by now Phan is what Dan and Phil choose to present to us. And it's controlled and measured. We know how obsessive they are with editing and making it right, there are no mistakes in what they leave in their videos. Everything is deliberate. That is manipulation of image. Not necessarily bad. Just means that they are framing Phan in the way they want to, not necessarily the way it is.

Dan and Phil may be very different (or totally similar) to "Phan" but we won't ever know that because they control Phan. And we take it and analyse it and try to find the "real" deppy through the cracks.

[eevee]

I mean that by now Phan is what Dan and Phil choose to present to us. And it's controlled and measured. We know how obsessive they are with editing and making it right, there are no mistakes in what they leave in their videos. Everything is deliberate. That is manipulation of image. Not necessarily bad. Just means that they are framing Phan in the way they want to, not necessarily the way it is.

Dan and Phil may be very different (or totally similar) to "Phan" but we won't ever know that because they control Phan. And we take it and analyse it and try to find the "real" deppy through the cracks.

I'm thinking maybe you're refering to phan as danisnotonfire x amazingphil as characters or personas, when really phan is dan howell and phil lester as people.

Dan and Phil aren't full-time actors. Yes their videos can be persona heavy but I don't think it's logical to assume that everything the put out there is part of a danisnotonfire or amazingphil character. their twitters are "Dan Howell" and "Phil Lester." Gaming channel, dan and phil games. maybe you do think that every single thing they put out there is fake but I just don't see it that way.

[sinnamonrollphil]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I literally said in that post that I'm not talking about Dan and Phil and what they are. I mean "Phan", I mean the fictitious pairing that they present to the world and we consume. There's obviously elements of truth in Phan, but Dan and Phil obviously keep too much private (as is their right) for us to call Phan a completely real thing. Fans have taken it and turned it into some meta-pairing that's its own entity. Hence the 4th wall vibe of the fanfic parts in TATINOF.

That's where we disagree. I see nothing "fictitious" about phan.

I think there's an argument to be made that there are two separate entities when we talk about dan and phil. There is 'Dan Howell' and 'Phil Lester' - The real people who have real lives in the real world. But we also have their personas which they portray online 'danisnotonfire' and 'amazingphil'. While those personas are rooted in their genuine personalities to an extent i think it's fair to say that 'danisnotonfire' and 'amazingphil' as a concept is inherently different from 'dan howell' and 'phil lester'. 'danisnotonfire' and 'amazingphil' do not exist. they arent real people. they are personas put on by the real people 'dan howell' and 'phil lester'. It's complicated because they market themselves as being 'themselves' but they hide so much of their true selves and distance their private lives from their personas to the point that the personas are separate entities.

when you think of it that way, i can imagine that for some people, the pairing and shipping of 'phan' is not about 'dan howell' and 'phil lester' as people, it's about the personas they've created 'danisnotonfire' and 'amazingphil'. so in the sense of this meta world we have created, the phanfiction we write, and the ideas we have about 'phan', i can see how it could become a reflection of a person's own wants and needs

[melon lord]

I mean that by now Phan is what Dan and Phil choose to present to us. And it's controlled and measured. We know how obsessive they are with editing and making it right, there are no mistakes in what they leave in their videos. Everything is deliberate. That is manipulation of image. Not necessarily bad. Just means that they are framing Phan in the way they want to, not necessarily the way it is.

Dan and Phil may be very different (or totally similar) to "Phan" but we won't ever know that because they control Phan. And we take it and analyse it and try to find the "real" deppy through the cracks.

I'm thinking maybe you're refering to phan as danisnotonfire x amazingphil as characters or personas, when really phan is dan howell and phil lester as people.

Dan and Phil aren't full-time actors. Yes their videos can be persona heavy but I don't think it's logical to assume that everything the put out there is part of a danisnotonfire or amazingphil character. their twitters are "Dan Howell" and "Phil Lester." Gaming channel, dan and phil games. maybe you do think that every single thing they put out there is fake but I just don't see it that way.

Yes, that's sort of what I mean, thank you. (I swear I'm not condescending I'm sorry if I sound that way)

The thing is, I don't want to think that way. I want to believe that what I see is what I get. It's the subconscious expectation of vloggers, that you get an honest glimpse into a person's life/mind. I think dan and phil being together is cute af and I internally squee at the thought of it, even if I come off as cynical and blasé. I want to think that during bloopers they cuddle and touch and kiss and their noses get faded in PINOF because they rub noses together.

But I also am aware that they are aware. For my own sanity at least, I keep myself at a distance. Emotionally and rationally. I know they aren't just 100% fooling around unedited and upload it unedited like "oh well that's how it was". I know that they choose what to leave in there and what to take out. So I can't believe something fully when I know deep down that some parts of the truth are omitted. What that truth is? I have no idea. And it's that "no idea" part that keeps me flip flopping around because unless you feed them veritaserum or they come out with a "total truth" video, I interpret anything.

[bluewho]

Put it this in Harry Potter terms, if you looked into the Mirror of Erised and saw Dan and Phil, almost everyone would see a different dynamic. Some would see friends, some lovers, some both, some neither. That's probably why the pairing is so addictive; it's so "perfect" and cute and admirable that we can't help but see something worth wanting.

I think the point that's being made here is that the truth is open to interpretation because we don't know it. Therefore we are all going to interpret what phan is through our own experiences and ideas. Of course this is informed by fact and rationality as well, but to pretend individual experiences and ideas don't play any role in how we interpret truth is not accurate.

Phan is what Dan and Phil choose to present to us. And it's controlled and measured. We know how obsessive they are with editing and making it right, there are no mistakes in what they leave in their videos. Everything is deliberate. That is manipulation of image. Not necessarily bad. Just means that they are framing Phan in the way they want to, not necessarily the way it is.

Dan and Phil may be very different (or totally similar) to "Phan" but we won't ever know that because they control Phan. And we take it and analyse it and try to find the "real" deppy through the cracks.

The second point is that what we are seeing is not the total unedited truth. It's what Dan and Phil choose to disclose. It's the bits that they edit in that we see, not the bits they edit out. Not to say that they don't make mistakes, because they do. Not to say everything we are seeing is fake, because it's not, it's almost always true imo. But it is a version of the truth that is manipulated and controlled by deppy.

And at this point 'phan' has to some extent become a concept, a story told by the phandom. Told through phanfiction, told through art, told through words and inside jokes. This conceptual aspect interacts and overlaps with the reality. But when we look at artwork of Dan and Phil as Pooh and Piglet for example that is us abstracting the truth, adding to it, presenting it in a particular way according to our own interpretation of it - because Dan and Phil have never been in a Pooh and Piglet outfit next to each other quoting lines about being friends forever.

I'm basically just reiterating what you said melon lord I'm sorry

Anyway belated offtopic liveshow review:



That was one of the best I think we've had from Dan in a while. I didn't get bored at all, and I loved The Apprentice rant, concept talk, and just the whole liveshow generally

ps does this count as my homework

[ohgod]

http://www.wetheunicorns.com/youtubers/ ... PAGgFXb.97

WTU: Who is the most eligible bachelor of all time?

Louise: Joe Sugg. Wait, no, Dan Howell. Dan Howell is a sexy man.

So are people going to give Louise shit for this?

[jesuisunèléve]

Beyond what Dan and Phil really are (which we may never know, tbh), Phan as a separate entity is as ambiguous and fluid as Max and Chloe. Are they platonic friends that have an indestructible bond and trust in each other? Or are they fated lovers that got extremely lucky and have a relationship most of us would kill for? People see in Phan a reflection of what they lack.

Okay um, how do people see what they lack in phan? Phan isn't a choose your own adventure game. Phan is a real relationship, whatever the nature, of real human people in the real world right now. There are solid facts. Solid things that happened. Solid things that will happen.



When people look at phan they see what's really there. Or maybe I'm wrong and people look at phan and Dan and Phil's faces contort like a snapchat filter and it becomes your greatest want. Who knows?

I think reducing phan shippers to lonely people who want a SO is kinda........not at all accurate

Phan has turned into a game, unfortunately, and the end game isn't as solid as some people will like. I don't understand why people demand a solid "yes" or "no" because maybe the answer isn't that simple. There's a lot of maybe's to be had in the entire Phan situation: maybe they are shipbaiting all of us, maybe they have opposite sex SO's who they want to keep out of the limelight...
Maybe...try this and take the situation at face value. What do we see? Two guys in a domestic siutation, attatched at the hip, they have seperate channels but they film together and even if they do film apart the other usually isn't far away.
It is what it is.
Is it fun to speculate? Sure is, just like it's fun to speculate which Presidential Candidate might make it to the White House (for those in the US, the majority of us are grateful there's a Congress), who's going to win the World Series...sure, these things have end results but, just like we don't know what happens when we die, we don't know about Deppy.
It might remain one of those great mysteries of the universe, and we leave it at that.
Life is full of non-absolutes, so it's nice to get them where we can, but Phan isn't the place. In the meantime, lets enjoy Dan constantly fangirling all over Phil.
(Now, this is my opinion ONLY. Personally, I think these two dorks are together but are Kristen Stewart-ing their relationship because making a statement about something that is inherently them is just not needed. Maybe they don't want to be pigeonholed as yet another gay YT couple? There's also the understanding that once you are out you immediately have to be an activist, and some don't want to be generalized that way. Also, if Deppy had a BIG problem with all this Phan, they would say something. Fan base or subs or whatever, if it were a huge issue that kept them awake at night then they would screw the numbers and blast everyone for shipping them.)