Dan & Phil Part 42: lying makes you go to hell

[cherrybomb3]

d&p may be of the opinion that, if straight people dont have to formally announce their straightness, why should they?

I know, I don't see why people don't take this into consideration.

wowzeroony at the top of the page id like to thank audible.com

I agree with this when it's about their sexuality, but it isn't right now. It's about whether or not they can be considered "out" as a couple. I think, they can not, since there is no confirmation whatsoever. It would be the exact same with a straight couple.

hmmmm depends on how far back in time you want to go and whether or not youre comfortable with inferring from context

not saying that youre wrong just pondering


wowzeroony at the top of the page id like to thank audible.com

[QuiteFriendly]

I legit don't get how and why my post prompted a convo on how being "closeted" (forbidden word ?) makes one a liar and also how a few pics of them visiting an aquarium confirms their relationship.
But, okay.

First of all, I don't think "closeted" is a horrible word that should be forbidden. I just don't think it's neutral. One reason why it's not neutral is that often people make a connection that is: closeted = hiding your sexuality = lying about your sexuality, when in reality people are just assuming everybody is straight until there is an annoucement or something. I'm not saying that anybody here, including you, is making that connection, but it is quite common in media in general and in the phandom. I'm sorry if I came across a bit rude, I'm really very friendly (and also modest).

Basically I agree with this:

without starting any drama (hopefully), i think that a possibility regarding dropping hints about sexuality without explicitly stating anything is that it may be a rejection of the rather heteronormative concept of 'coming out'. im sure this has already been brought up here, but d&p may be of the opinion that, if straight people dont have to formally announce their straightness, why should they announce their sexuality?

And for the record, I don't think anything about this trip confirms a relationship.

[AmazingOCD]

A relationship is secret until the people believed to be in it confirm it. With words. Whether or not you believe they’re a couple doesn’t really matter here. We do not know. No matter what we might think they have done to show us they’re in a relationship, it’s all interpretation at this point. We don’t know and we won’t know until they tell us, no matter what we think we might know. How do a few nice pictures from Singapore make them out? I literally don’t understand your reasoning here.

Everyone can believe whatever they want of course but they’re not out until they say they’re out. Actions do matter, yes, but actions are not a coming out. This is not about assuming or whatever, everyone can assume what they please for themselves, but acting like they’re out like they’ve confirmed it is kind of… not cool. We’re apparently all about not forcing labels on Dan and Phil but isn’t this the exact same thing? They haven’t said they’re together but everyone is acting like they have.

That said, Danny and Philly are literally just nicknames. It’s cute they call each other that but what is it supposed to mean really? Why does every discussion about stuff like this have to end in a discussion about whether or not they’re together? I'm sorry I sound this cranky, but this makes me really tired lately.

I know that what I said might not make sense to you (and that's ok! This is a discussion forum), but I've watched Deppy since 2013-2014 and come back to them in the latter half of 2016. For me personally, there is (from what I can see) a massive change regarding their interactions with each other in liveshows, in videos, how their lives and careers are so interlinked and how they present themselves on social media.

Plus I have gone down the rabbit hole in Tumblr, GG and on here. And yes, I saw v-day and reported it a few months ago.

Everyone has a different idea/image of what a relationship is or looks like. Comparing Deppy's interactions to actual couples, it's strikingly similar.

without starting any drama (hopefully), i think that a possibility regarding dropping hints about sexuality without explicitly stating anything is that it may be a rejection of the rather heteronormative concept of 'coming out'. im sure this has already been brought up here, but d&p may be of the opinion that, if straight people dont have to formally announce their straightness, why should they announce their sexuality?

This states my idea of 'actions speak louder than words' a lot more articulate than I can ever hope to communicate!

The biggest example here is Dan's sexuality. From the diss-track last year and from everything from Phan 2017, I think that he's made it pretty clear that he isn't 100% straight (without explicitly stating it)

IMO, I am 99% sure that they are together. I have this opinion from looking at everything since 2009. Regarding Singapore, I just got a real coupley-vibe off those pictures (I know I'm being presumptious but hey..)

What I mean about Danny and Philly: It's just that when they call each other those names, you can hear the endearment/fondness behind them. It's especially noticeable in their gaming videos when they tease each other.

Everything that I said in my post is in my own opinion and it's just what I see!

[lurker]

i hope i'm not misreading the tone when i continue with the discussion because i found fancybum's post and some of the replies really interesting. not to pick on the post that sparked it, but i'm kind of a nitpicker when it comes to the term "closeted" too, because to me, it always carries the notion of, on one hand, that it is an involuntary and temporary state from which, on the other hand, you can only escape by a formal announcement. a coming out, on the other hand, puts imo the whole responsibility of explaining, educating, and enduring all possible outcomes to the person coming out. to me, what dan has been doing lately with terms of mentioning attraction to men is really inspiring, because it kind of destroys these notions by skipping the whole coming out step, which, as trivial as it may sound, i never before fully realised a person could just do. therefore, it rubs me the wrong way when people still consider dan "closeted", because it often gives me the impression that whatever he says is brushed aside as long as he doesn't make a formal coming out video, tattoes "i'm not straight" on his forehead, or something similar.

i'd also say that for this reason, if dan and phil are in a relationship, it's not a closeted one, but simply a secret one. with terms to that, however, i'd see it the other way round: it really is undetermined as long as they don't choose to tell us, and nothing they do is "proof" for anything. but i also feel that it's important to recognize that what they share about them is their choice, like fancybum said. they could make an official announcement. they could have also chosen to share less than they do.

edit: while i was typing, other people already said most of what i said, sorry.

[cherrybomb3]

i hope i'm not misreading the tone when i continue with the discussion because i found fancybum's post and some of the replies really interesting. not to pick on the post that sparked it, but i'm kind of a nitpicker when it comes to the term "closeted" too, because to me, it always carries the notion of, on one hand, that it is an involuntary and temporary state from which, on the other hand, you can only escape by a formal announcement. a coming out, on the other hand, puts imo the whole responsibility of explaining, educating, and enduring all possible outcomes to the person coming out. to me, what dan has been doing lately with terms of mentioning attraction to men is really inspiring, because it kind of destroys these notions by skipping the whole coming out step, which, as trivial as it may sound, i never before fully realised a person could just do. therefore, it rubs me the wrong way when people still consider dan "closeted", because it often gives me the impression that whatever he says is brushed aside as long as he doesn't make a formal coming out video, tattoes "i'm not straight" on his forehead, or something similar.

i'd also say that for this reason, if dan and phil are in a relationship, it's not a closeted one, but simply a secret one. with terms to that, however, i'd see it the other way round: it really is undetermined as long as they don't choose to tell us, and nothing they do is "proof" for anything. but i also feel that it's important to recognize that what they share about them is their choice, like fancybum said. they could make an official announcement. they could have also chosen to share less than they do.

sorry forehead space is reserved for 'phil and i'

it sounds a bit silly when i type it out loud, but i think that the way dan has been dealing with his sexuality is rather inspiring, in a non-corny-actually-affirming way. before he acted like this i was rather unsure about how to discuss my bisexuality, and so i started to just approach it with self deprecating nonchalance and offhanded comments. seeing dan do the same sort of helped me come to terms with the fact that the way i was dealing with my sexuality was (to use the current fave word) valid and not deficient or unworthy

dan howell, lgbt activist since 2015ish

[notworthreading]

I legit don't get how and why my post prompted a convo on how being "closeted" (forbidden word ?) makes one a liar and also how a few pics of them visiting an aquarium confirms their relationship.
But, okay.

First of all, I don't think "closeted" is a horrible word that should be forbidden. I just don't think it's neutral. One reason why it's not neutral is that often people make a connection that is: closeted = hiding your sexuality = lying about your sexuality, when in reality people are just assuming everybody is straight until there is an annoucement or something. I'm not saying that anybody here, including you, is making that connection, but it is quite common in media in general and in the phandom. I'm sorry if I came across a bit rude, I'm really very friendly (and also modest).

Nah you didn't come across at rude at all, don't worry. I just completely disagree with everything that's being said here regarding the whole closet thing. But it's fine, just different opinions.Thanks for explaining.

[Susanisnotafish]

Sorry to butt into a very good discussion with something pretty trivial, but I just want to say dan using the term "make love" is so hawt! Wish I knew what sea creature he was referring to! Still hopin for a full vid.

[starry nightworld]

My thoughts exactly. I've always had a theory that Dan and Phil get lot of views for more than their videos or personalities. Don't get me wrong, I think they'd still be successful if they were open about these things, but not as much. People want to look for hints about their sexuality/relationship status. There's a sense of ambiguity and mystery. Without that, I'm not sure how well their channels would hold up.

Side note: I know that we don't really know about their relationship status, this is just my opinion.

I just want to say that I think people overestimate the power of shipping with Dan and Phil. I watched them both loyally for years and years, bought the books, went to Tatinof and the whole serious shipping aspect of their personalities honestly never occurred to me until I decided to look them up on Tumblr.

So Dan and Phil most likely have an enormous section of their fanbase who just watch their content and don't really think any deeper other wondering as a passing thought what their personal lives are like.

[lurker]

same, cherrybomb3, same
or more like
bi-five

[cherrybomb3]

same, cherrybomb3, same
or more like
bi-five

delet this nephew

[jesp]

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[Birdie]

I know that what I said might not make sense to you (and that's ok! This is a discussion forum), but I've watched Deppy since 2013-2014 and come back to them in the latter half of 2016. For me personally, there is (from what I can see) a massive change regarding their interactions with each other in liveshows, in videos, how their lives and careers are so interlinked and how they present themselves on social media.

I agree with you actually, I just don’t really make the connection between different behaviour towards each other and them being in a relationship. My personal interpretation is that their behaviour changed because they could be more open about their friendship/relationship again (more publicly close) after the great 2012 fiasco but it's no confirmation of anything. I’m not saying I’m right though. My opinion is that the only thing I can know for sure is that I know nothing for sure.

i'd also say that for this reason, if dan and phil are in a relationship, it's not a closeted one, but simply a secret one. with terms to that, however, i'd see it the other way round: it really is undetermined as long as they don't choose to tell us, and nothing they do is "proof" for anything. but i also feel that it's important to recognize that what they share about them is their choice, like fancybum said. they could make an official announcement. they could have also chosen to share less than they do.

Like, I'm not saying they're not trying to show us they're in a relationship. I can't know what exactly is going through their heads and why they do some of the things they do. But unless they decide to explain it to us, I will never know. But I'm okay with this, it's their choice.

[SexyTrashCan]

Yikes, I don't really feel like touching the current conversation with a 30 foot pole


Thanks for the new timestamp forum

[onetruetrash]

My thoughts exactly. I've always had a theory that Dan and Phil get lot of views for more than their videos or personalities. Don't get me wrong, I think they'd still be successful if they were open about these things, but not as much. People want to look for hints about their sexuality/relationship status. There's a sense of ambiguity and mystery. Without that, I'm not sure how well their channels would hold up.

Side note: I know that we don't really know about their relationship status, this is just my opinion.

I just want to say that I think people overestimate the power of shipping with Dan and Phil. I watched them both loyally for years and years, bought the books, went to Tatinof and the whole serious shipping aspect of their personalities honestly never occurred to me until I decided to look them up on Tumblr.

So Dan and Phil most likely have an enormous section of their fanbase who just watch their content and don't really think any deeper other wondering as a passing thought what their personal lives are like.

I probably am overestimating it, but it's just a theory that I've always had.

[sugar]

I just want to say that I think people overestimate the power of shipping with Dan and Phil. I watched them both loyally for years and years, bought the books, went to Tatinof and the whole serious shipping aspect of their personalities honestly never occurred to me until I decided to look them up on Tumblr.

So Dan and Phil most likely have an enormous section of their fanbase who just watch their content and don't really think any deeper other wondering as a passing thought what their personal lives are like.

i think this is why they're both starting to make more comments about being attracted to guys, so that if/when it becomes more obvious that they're in a relationship (like moving or getting a dog together) that their casual audience isn't caught totally off guard.

not to really get into the closeted/not closeted disucssion, but regardless of where a person stands in regards to if they're in a relationship or not i don't see how anyone now could think that dan is straight. being bi myself that thought actually offends me that people would disregard everything he's said that proves otherwise.

[SexyTrashCan]

not to really get into the closeted/not closeted disucssion, but regardless of where a person stands in regards to if they're in a relationship or not i don't see how anyone now could think that dan is straight. being bi myself that thought actually offends me that people would disregard everything he's said that proves otherwise.

I know I just said I didn't want to get involved but really
Exactly for that last sentence, being bi myself it really does annoy me when people seem to erase his sexuality and somehow ignore all indicators he is not straight. He's made it pretty damn clear he isn't straight . I have a friend in real life who completely disregards that fact, and it really does get on my nerves and she knows it.

[captainspacecoat]

I feel like this conversation is about two different things tbh, and people are taking certain comments out of context. I thought it was pretty obvious that the initial "closeted" comment was not at all about dnp's sexualities, it was about their relationship status. Just objectively, Dan and Phil are not in a confirmed relationship. Based on the way they behave/other circumstantial 'clues' I believe that they are together, and I believe it is reasonable to think so, but until they explicitly confirm it or do something that has no possible explanation other than 'they did that because they are in a relationship', then it is not official that they are together. I assume they are, but that is not objective fact, it is an opinion based on things that I believe suggest they are in a relationship. That's all that first person was implying I think, and it's unfair to suggest that their comment was casting shame upon dnp for remaining closeted, or was implying that Dan and/or Phil are straight.

I understand where everyone's coming from - I hate the concept of non-straight/cis people having to 'remain in the closet' until they openly confirm their sexuality/gender, while cishet people get to just live their lives as the 'default' sexuality/gender. I say that as a closeted person, who has only told one person irl that I'm not straight. But I think in this instance it's fair to suggest that certain behaviours (i.e. calling each other Danny and Philly) may be a way for them to show affection that doesn't explicitly implicate them as being in a relationship if they are not ready/willing/able to disclose that information to us without doubt. "Closeted" functions as a concise word to describe dnp's current status of (potentially) keeping their relationship private, and I think it's unfair to suggest that the original poster meant anything harmful by using that word.

Basically, what katka said

[cherrybomb3]

oh dear i hope ive not caused any unnecessary drama sorry if ive misconstrued anything any of you have said

[secretagentphan]

i hope i'm not misreading the tone when i continue with the discussion because i found fancybum's post and some of the replies really interesting. not to pick on the post that sparked it, but i'm kind of a nitpicker when it comes to the term "closeted" too, because to me, it always carries the notion of, on one hand, that it is an involuntary and temporary state from which, on the other hand, you can only escape by a formal announcement. a coming out, on the other hand, puts imo the whole responsibility of explaining, educating, and enduring all possible outcomes to the person coming out. to me, what dan has been doing lately with terms of mentioning attraction to men is really inspiring, because it kind of destroys these notions by skipping the whole coming out step, which, as trivial as it may sound, i never before fully realised a person could just do. therefore, it rubs me the wrong way when people still consider dan "closeted", because it often gives me the impression that whatever he says is brushed aside as long as he doesn't make a formal coming out video, tattoes "i'm not straight" on his forehead, or something similar.

i'd also say that for this reason, if dan and phil are in a relationship, it's not a closeted one, but simply a secret one. with terms to that, however, i'd see it the other way round: it really is undetermined as long as they don't choose to tell us, and nothing they do is "proof" for anything. but i also feel that it's important to recognize that what they share about them is their choice, like fancybum said. they could make an official announcement. they could have also chosen to share less than they do.

sorry forehead space is reserved for 'phil and i'

it sounds a bit silly when i type it out loud, but i think that the way dan has been dealing with his sexuality is rather inspiring, in a non-corny-actually-affirming way. before he acted like this i was rather unsure about how to discuss my bisexuality, and so i started to just approach it with self deprecating nonchalance and offhanded comments. seeing dan do the same sort of helped me come to terms with the fact that the way i was dealing with my sexuality was (to use the current fave word) valid and not deficient or unworthy

dan howell, lgbt activist since 2015ish

Sorry I'm about to rant.
This really got me. I didn't come to peace with myself and my sexuality until I was 17 and it was really hard for me. Finding people like Lou Reed made me realize it was totally okay and cool to be shamelessly bisexual and be unapologetically yourself. Dan was comforting in a different way in that he showed me that you can be out without ever coming out and you don't need to label yourself. I struggled with self hatred and denial for so long that I kind of understand why Dan acted the way he did in 2012 and it makes me upset that the phandom gives him hell for it. We don't even know if he was out to his entire family. People calling you gay when you're not is REALLY awful as a bi person, especially if you're still trying to accept yourself as bi. The bi erasure I see on tumblr makes me sick.

[cherrybomb3]

i hope i'm not misreading the tone when i continue with the discussion because i found fancybum's post and some of the replies really interesting. not to pick on the post that sparked it, but i'm kind of a nitpicker when it comes to the term "closeted" too, because to me, it always carries the notion of, on one hand, that it is an involuntary and temporary state from which, on the other hand, you can only escape by a formal announcement. a coming out, on the other hand, puts imo the whole responsibility of explaining, educating, and enduring all possible outcomes to the person coming out. to me, what dan has been doing lately with terms of mentioning attraction to men is really inspiring, because it kind of destroys these notions by skipping the whole coming out step, which, as trivial as it may sound, i never before fully realised a person could just do. therefore, it rubs me the wrong way when people still consider dan "closeted", because it often gives me the impression that whatever he says is brushed aside as long as he doesn't make a formal coming out video, tattoes "i'm not straight" on his forehead, or something similar.

i'd also say that for this reason, if dan and phil are in a relationship, it's not a closeted one, but simply a secret one. with terms to that, however, i'd see it the other way round: it really is undetermined as long as they don't choose to tell us, and nothing they do is "proof" for anything. but i also feel that it's important to recognize that what they share about them is their choice, like fancybum said. they could make an official announcement. they could have also chosen to share less than they do.

sorry forehead space is reserved for 'phil and i'

it sounds a bit silly when i type it out loud, but i think that the way dan has been dealing with his sexuality is rather inspiring, in a non-corny-actually-affirming way. before he acted like this i was rather unsure about how to discuss my bisexuality, and so i started to just approach it with self deprecating nonchalance and offhanded comments. seeing dan do the same sort of helped me come to terms with the fact that the way i was dealing with my sexuality was (to use the current fave word) valid and not deficient or unworthy

dan howell, lgbt activist since 2015ish

Sorry I'm about to rant.
This really got me. I didn't come to peace with myself and my sexuality until I was 17 and it was really hard for me. Finding people like Lou Reed made me realize it was totally okay and cool to be shamelessly bisexual and be unapologetically yourself. Dan was comforting in a different way in that he showed me that you can be out without ever coming out and you don't need to label yourself. I struggled with self hatred and denial for so long that I kind of understand why Dan acted the way he did in 2012 and it makes me upset that the phandom gives him hell for it. We don't even know if he was out to his entire family. People calling you gay when you're not is REALLY awful as a bi person, especially if you're still trying to accept yourself as bi. The bi erasure I see on tumblr makes me sick.

ayy we out here

seriously though at the risk of sounding ridiculous if you ever need to talk about self hatred or anything i am (and im assuming we are) here

sounds weird but i feel duty-bound to at lesst offer help after watching 13 reasons why ;____;

[SexyTrashCan]

This really got me. I didn't come to peace with myself and my sexuality until I was 17 and it was really hard for me. Finding people like Lou Reed made me realize it was totally okay and cool to be shamelessly bisexual and be unapologetically yourself. Dan was comforting in a different way in that he showed me that you can be out without ever coming out and you don't need to label yourself. I struggled with self hatred and denial for so long that I kind of understand why Dan acted the way he did in 2012 and it makes me upset that the phandom gives him hell for it. We don't even know if he was out to his entire family. People calling you gay when you're not is REALLY awful as a bi person, especially if you're still trying to accept yourself as bi. The bi erasure I see on tumblr makes me sick.

Another thing that irritates me is always that if a person dates someone of the opposite gender they're automatically straight, if they date someone of the same gender they're automatically gay, and it doesn't matter who they've dated before . (Ok I'll stop before I go offtopic completely and rant about the disgusting biphobia I've seen on Tumblr)

[sugar]

I feel like this conversation is about two different things tbh, and people are taking certain comments out of context. I thought it was pretty obvious that the initial "closeted" comment was not at all about dnp's sexualities, it was about their relationship status. Just objectively, Dan and Phil are not in a confirmed relationship. Based on the way they behave/other circumstantial 'clues' I believe that they are together, and I believe it is reasonable to think so, but until they explicitly confirm it or do something that has no possible explanation other than 'they did that because they are in a relationship', then it is not official that they are together. I assume they are, but that is not objective fact, it is an opinion based on things that I believe suggest they are in a relationship. That's all that first person was implying I think, and it's unfair to suggest that their comment was casting shame upon dnp for remaining closeted, or was implying that Dan and/or Phil are straight.

I understand where everyone's coming from - I hate the concept of non-straight/cis people having to 'remain in the closet' until they openly confirm their sexuality/gender, while cishet people get to just live their lives as the 'default' sexuality/gender. I say that as a closeted person, who has only told one person irl that I'm not straight. But I think in this instance it's fair to suggest that certain behaviours (i.e. calling each other Danny and Philly) may be a way for them to show affection that doesn't explicitly implicate them as being in a relationship if they are not ready/willing/able to disclose that information to us without doubt. "Closeted" functions as a concise word to describe dnp's current status of (potentially) keeping their relationship private, and I think it's unfair to suggest that the original poster meant anything harmful by using that word.

Basically, what katka said

i can't speak for anyone else but my comment about being offended by people who think dan is straight wasn't aimed at anyone in this conversation. it was more of a general statement about what i've seen online but seemed related to the current discussion.

[cherrybomb3]

sort of related to the discussion (or at least one of the 15 that are currently occuring), but i sort of hope that phil feels comfortable enough with his own sexuality to casually bant about it more like dan does. i know he does make mention of male crushes and pulls off some top notch innuendos, but it doesnt seem like hes at the same level as dan just yet - just look at his reaction to dans innuendo in awsugar's signature thingy


or im just being presumptuous and forcing my opinions and expectations on phil

[jesp]

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[cherrybomb3]

all of the mod posts seem a bit like the famous awkward stop talking oscar speech music trying to usher out the numerous sexuality and relationship discussions in the nicest way possible