Dan & Phil Part 57: Pinky and the Brain

[obvsly]

Glad to see so many different opinions here about Felix thing and frankly you all made valid points. I'm actually surprised I haven't changed my views yet, coz normally I'm quite impressionable.

I feel like it's 'damn if you do, damn if you don't' situation for dnp here. If they publicly call out Felix and cut ties. they're bad friends who only look out for their own public image. If they stay friends with him, they're encouraging bad behaviors.

As an Asian woman with a white male significant other who's from a country with apartheid past, I've been subject to racism so many times I lost count, and in various degrees. Felix did bad things and he's stupid and I'd probably never want to be friends with him (I don't even watch him), but I'd understand why people who already are friends with him hesitate to abandon him completely. I'm probably ignorant and naive too by your standards but if Felix's friends believe in him, there might be a chance he could become a better role model yet.

But this is not about Felix so sorry if I'm taking this way off topic now. I'm just an optimistic fool and probably will never change but I hope I can still stay here.

[grenadine]

I've personally been a little surprised that Felix (who I agree is abhorrent) wants to be around Deppy at all, as it is highly unlikely that they are heterosexual, and are most likely in a loving committed relationship, which runs counter to the beliefs he seems to support. Honestly, the whole thing puzzles me. I don't keep up with Felix, nor will I ever watch anything he makes, so I won't know if he seems to show any "character development" unless I read about it here, but it doesn't sound like any progress has been made on that front.

I also think they (at least Dan) is self-aware enough and consciously-evolved enough to have given the topic some thought. I'd love for him/them to address the topic. (not holding my breath though; blue is not my color )

On a personal level, my heart goes out to you. The rhetoric I hear in the news daily terrifies me, (and I'm of the plain vanilla privileged class, just female, but still . . .). I'm very fortunate to live in one of the most diverse cities in the US, and I don't know where you live, but if your ever in a position to relocate, I believe you'd find it to be a place where you'd be welcomed with open arms!

I will probably regret this post but i don't believe Felix is homophobic or racist. He is blunt, stuborn and potentialy dangerous because his slips or offensive/disgusting jokes, jokes are easily taken out of context and he should know that. But saying that what he done and what he did is past forgivable and because of it dnp should not even be in the same room with him is not so obvious. This thing is blown out of proportion here.

[riperoni]

I've personally been a little surprised that Felix (who I agree is abhorrent) wants to be around Deppy at all, as it is highly unlikely that they are heterosexual, and are most likely in a loving committed relationship, which runs counter to the beliefs he seems to support. Honestly, the whole thing puzzles me. I don't keep up with Felix, nor will I ever watch anything he makes, so I won't know if he seems to show any "character development" unless I read about it here, but it doesn't sound like any progress has been made on that front.

I also think they (at least Dan) is self-aware enough and consciously-evolved enough to have given the topic some thought. I'd love for him/them to address the topic. (not holding my breath though; blue is not my color )

On a personal level, my heart goes out to you. The rhetoric I hear in the news daily terrifies me, (and I'm of the plain vanilla privileged class, just female, but still . . .). I'm very fortunate to live in one of the most diverse cities in the US, and I don't know where you live, but if your ever in a position to relocate, I believe you'd find it to be a place where you'd be welcomed with open arms!

I will probably regret this post but i don't believe Felix is homophobic or racist. He is blunt, stuborn and potentialy dangerous because his slips or offensive/disgusting jokes, jokes are easily taken out of context and he should know that. But saying that what he done and what he did is past forgivable and because of it dnp should not even be in the same room with him is not so obvious. This thing is blown out of proportion here.

I 100% agree with you but havent posted because of how many people seem to be incredibly aggresive about the entire issue?

If youd watched any of felix's content youd see he isnt actually racist/homophobic (Im not a fan but i can see this). So many people making assumptions that just because you use a slur, automatically you hold a variety of different beliefs even if your actions say different.

Has anyone ever found an example of him saying that he genuinely believes people are inferior to him based on sexuality or race? Maybe id side with the rest of idb then.

[autumnhearth]

gosh i'm so embarrassing but i actually went through all the pictures on the site to figure out every room and this is what i gathered (it's under a spoiler because i'm disgusting):

room #1

room #2:

room #3:

and room #4? maybe this is the one with the two beds?:

the order is completely arbitrary btw

i'm now 80% positive they slept in room #3. i wonder what couple sacrificed their space and comfort for dan and phil? unless dan was too scared of catching phil cooties that he actually slept somewhere else. which i suppose is more likely.

i can't wait for dan and phil to debunk this on the tuesday liveshow so i can die of embarrassment

I was all on board as your “bedroom #3” is the only one shown to have the clip on lamps. The other two double rooms have bedside tables with lamps on them and the one trundle bed we see has a self behind it with a lamp, not in reach of the pillow, though the one we don’t see could easily have a clip on lamp on it. Still, why try to argue against the simplest answer?

Though it did strike me as odd that D&P would be given the nicest and most spacious bedroom, with what looks like the biggest bed, over say the birthday girl and her partner, but maybe that’s just how they like to treat guests? (But they certainly didn’t give it to just Phil Lester when there were other couples that needed sleeping space).

But then I checked out Marzia’s blog... her second photo is of that upside down triangular shaped window (it’s between two gables and its the only one like that in the house, the other bedrooms all have rectangular windows), which appears to be the master bedroom based on the Airbnb website’s description:

“The home offers exceptional space with a large open plan living, dining and kitchen area. A double sided wood burner in the centre of the living area is fully functional and guests are welcome to enjoy this feature. Also on the ground floor is a shower room and one double bedroom.

As you continue upstairs you arrive at the second double bedroom and the main bathroom. Just past these is a twin room with single beds that can both be pulled out in to doubles.

The master bedroom located at the far end of the property features an en-suite shower, super king sized bed and a picturesque view over part of Rye.”

Let’s see: Upstairs, room with a view, biggest bed, en-suite shower (just behind the wall that the headboard is against). Yep that’s the master. And it seems based on the picture she took with a purse, make-up mirror and various grooming items on the table in front of that window, that she and Felix claimed that bedroom on the first night. (Friday, before the guests arrived on Saturday, she writes).

So unless the master was offered/given up to D&P through some game that they won, I’m going to venture a guess that our boys took the room with the single beds and slept Bert and Ernie style (and that the unpictured single had a lamp clipped to the top). Sorry guys. Not that sleeping arrangements at a weekend getaway with friends means anything.

Still Rye looks beautiful.

Sorry I just can’t with the other discussion right now, I feel ill if I think about it too much. No wait, I’ll add one thing: verbally expressing the belief that you think another group is inferior to you is *not* the only standard by which we measure racism, homophobia, etc.

[Phantasy]

gosh i'm so embarrassing but i actually went through all the pictures on the site to figure out every room and this is what i gathered (it's under a spoiler because i'm disgusting):

room #1

room #2:

room #3:

and room #4? maybe this is the one with the two beds?:

the order is completely arbitrary btw

i'm now 80% positive they slept in room #3. i wonder what couple sacrificed their space and comfort for dan and phil? unless dan was too scared of catching phil cooties that he actually slept somewhere else. which i suppose is more likely.

i can't wait for dan and phil to debunk this on the tuesday liveshow so i can die of embarrassment

I was all on board as your “bedroom #3” is the only one shown to have the clip on lamps. The other two double rooms have bedside tables with lamps on them and the one trundle bed we see has a self behind it with a lamp, not in reach of the pillow, though the one we don’t see could easily have a clip on lamp on it. Still, why try to argue against the simplest answer?

Though it did strike me as odd that D&P would be given the nicest and most spacious bedroom, with what looks like the biggest bed, over say the birthday girl and her partner, but maybe that’s just how they like to treat guests? (But they certainly didn’t give it to just Phil Lester when there were other couples that needed sleeping space).

But then I checked out Marzia’s blog... her second photo is of that upside down triangular shaped window (it’s between two gables and its the only one like that in the house, the other bedrooms all have rectangular windows), which appears to be the master bedroom based on the Airbnb website’s description:

“The home offers exceptional space with a large open plan living, dining and kitchen area. A double sided wood burner in the centre of the living area is fully functional and guests are welcome to enjoy this feature. Also on the ground floor is a shower room and one double bedroom.

As you continue upstairs you arrive at the second double bedroom and the main bathroom. Just past these is a twin room with single beds that can both be pulled out in to doubles.

The master bedroom located at the far end of the property features an en-suite shower, super king sized bed and a picturesque view over part of Rye.”

Let’s see: Upstairs, room with a view, biggest bed, en-suite shower (just behind the wall that the headboard is against). Yep that’s the master. And it seems based on the picture she took with a purse, make-up mirror and various grooming items on the table in front of that window, that she and Felix claimed that bedroom on the first night. (Friday, before the guests arrived on Saturday, she writes).

So unless the master was offered/given up to D&P through some game that they won, I’m going to venture a guess that our boys took the room with the single beds and slept Bert and Ernie style (and that the unpictured single had a lamp clipped to the top). Sorry guys. Not that sleeping arrangements at a weekend getaway with friends means anything.

Still Rye looks beautiful.

Sorry I just can’t with the other discussion right now, I feel ill if I think about it too much. No wait, I’ll add one thing: verbally expressing the belief that you think another group is inferior to you is *not* the only standard by which we measure racism, homophobia, etc.

I think only the purse is Marzia’s, the rest is just part of the decor; she might have just set it down to take the photo. Also here’s a photo of the other side of the room with the twin beds. There’s a lamp on the shelf, but it’s not attached to the bed like the bigger room—I don’t see how Phil’s pillow would even touch it (or the switch). Also, let’s be real... D&P, aren’t going to fit in those dinky beds. I absolutely think Marzia would play gracious host and offer up the bigger bed (and additional privacy) to D&P.

More views of the master...


Other side of the room with the twin beds...


And floor plans (cause why not)...

[Ablissa]

I'm loving the bed theories (as usual) and I'm impressed with how quick and efficient you all are (as usual)
Overall, I'm on board with the theory that they shared the bed. The twin beds look so tiny for deppy.
The only thing I don't agree about, and feel it goes against the theory, is Emma. While I do believe they may be out to some of their friends, I don't think Emma falls under that category, so I wonder if they would truly make it that obvious with her around.
On the other hand, I don't see where else they could have slept if not in that bedroom, I really don't think those twin beds are big enough for them.

[lemon something]

The problem I have with them still being friendly with Felix is that it's not the same as you or I hanging out with someone with offensive views out of convenience. Felix has a massive public platform which he wilfully uses to be racist. D&P also have a massive public platform. Their relationship is public as well as private and that's a fact they can't ignore when it suits them. Having photographs taken together and posted on the internet is an endorsement of him whether they're prepared to admit it or not.

It makes me very sad that they apparently take it so lightly and don't feel a duty to protect their audience. It's easy for them, as white men, to dismiss Felix as problematic, but not so easy for members of their audience who face racism in their lives. The kindest thing I could possibly say about it is that it's tone deaf and careless in the extreme of people's feelings. They've only got themselves to blame if people have much harsher judgements than that though. Personally, their actions are not good enough. It leaves a very nasty taste and I am judging them. I can't put my fingers in my ears and distract myself with cuteness and I desperately hope they address it properly this week.

[dontpanic]

dan's legs strike again
how is he comfortable??

I often sit like that and it's quite comfortable actually! He must be sitting in a chair or so.
Also, random comment, but they really need to cut Maya's claws (nails?). They're too long based on this pic. She's an adorable dog though, I do hope they take care of them, or that at least Marzia does, I think so little of Felix these days that I don't expect anything good from him anymore.

This is an old comment, sorry, and I’m not even directly responding to you this is just what reminded me of something.

I’ve seen a lot of throw away comments in the past few months suggesting pdp doesn’t take care of his dogs and distinctly remember one (which I can’t find now) suggesting that he abuses his dogs, and that rubs me the wrong way. I used to watch him before I realized… everything… and he’s done nothing to indicate that he does anything but love his dogs. One of the few things I still admire about him is that they decided to adopt a disabled dog. Just judging from the way he plays with them on camera and even gave Edgar a public persona shows they spend time with the dogs, which is the most important part of being a pet owner.

And there’s not much need to worry, Maya’s nails just look like she’s due for a grooming soon.

I’m very passionate about doggos, sorry. In HS I worked at an animal shelter and I saw too many abused pups, seeing pets in happy homes makes me happy.

Still ain’t defending that jerk, just saying being a bad person doesn’t suggest being a bad dog owner.

Hi guys,

I really hesitate getting into the Felix conversation, not just because it makes me anxious and I hate confrontation but also because I agree with everyone. I think it is one of those things that really makes it clear how much varied reactions can be based on different life experiences and beliefs and how valid they all are. I genuinely find myself getting where everyone is coming from, even those that disagree with each other. I just thought I would respectfully offer my opinion so I can be done with my own reaction to this being an, understandably, on going conversation. Maybe even to give myself a bit of closure, all though I think I will stay up to date to ensure that new information can continue to add to my own perspective.

I think Felix has proven that despite apologies, scandals, and "mistakes" he has not grown. I think he may have said something similar to this in his very short apology video. The newest one. I have unsubscribed because I do not have room for his negative antics in my mind space. That said the current political discourse and chaos where I live, in the US, has really shaped my perspective. I am mixed race hispanic and Syrian bisexual person, and all except my immediate family support policies that genuinely frighten and insult me on a very personal level. My instinct is to be angry, to delete Facebook friends, ignore certain family members, ect. And to some degree I do. However, something that I have more recently grown to believe is that by doing that I only cut off people who might need exposure to people who thing differently to grow and change. I could be wrong. I might change my mind. I don't know if there are any clear right answers. But right now I just think D+P and others who disagree with Felix cutting off contact means that Felix is only/mostly surrounded by people who agree with his attitude. He will not really be confronted with different perspectives.I think if anything it is important for people who disagree on things like his recent behavior to stay in contact to have respectful but challenging dialogue. I guess I just want to think that some people can change and grow and learn and if we want people to stop acting horribly they have to be given the chance to. I think Felix has said and done horrible things and profited from it. He uses his large platform in a way I find abhorrent. I do not meant to in anyway excuse his behavior or suggest you give him more chances or anything. I don't like his content. I also think you vote with your dollar, so I won't give him my views or attention. In terms of D+P we don't know, and we can assume and a lot of the assumptions are probably right, but we don't KNOW that they haven't had that conversation with him, we don't know if they have texted or called or confronted him and if so to what degree. We don't what he may or may not have done to reach out. We assume often that they filter information before we receive it, so we don't know if that has happened here. I don't mind assuming or trying to figure out, or processing or anything like that. Just food for thought. I personally need more direct information before my feelings about D+P change. I will probably me more cautious and aware of their actions. But I don't blame them for going to the party or staying in contact.

I do hope this made some sense and I really understand why people may disagree with me. These are just my ramblings to offer a perspective. No disrespect intended.

Thanks

I need to say thank you for sharing this perspective.



Just jumping right into it, I don't envy deppy for being in the position they're in. but first, re: pdp. I’ve been called the N-word and each time I can see the pure, unadulterated hate in their eyes, and I don’t see that hate in pdp, I just see an idiot trying to be an edgelord. Doesn’t mean he’s not racist, he could be, there are many forms of racism, but I can’t be sure--what I can say is he’s done some racist acts that I’m scared he’ll never realize aren’t funny or harmless. imo, anyone who hasn’t reached that hate level of racism are always redeemable.

Yes, I know I’m an idealist.

Spending time in social settings that discourage racist etc. behavior is so important and can do so much good

lame example, but my father is almost 70 and his opinions on same sex couples turned a 180 simply because his favorite show is Modern Family… just, low income US black culture is pretty homophobic in my experience, so a man in his 60s verbally defending same sex marriage thanks to the whitest show on television is just…so hilarious. I still don’t know how to react.

COMPLETELY MY OPINION, but my biggest beef with the stereotypical “white ally”tm is how common it is to cry “problematic” without trying to help someone change their behavior. All that does is make the uninformed person feel attacked and cement their obsession with all-lives-matter and shiz like that. Said white ally gets to feel all woke and stuff, but really they’re hurting are people like me.

We only know the public actions of these people, I’m more hopeful about their interactions behind the scenes. Little things are more important than big public call outs. If pdp and deppy are playing video games and pdp says a slur again, Dan (it would be dan, lbr) might say “yo, that ain’t cool brah” etc. If pdp says something like “just a joke, bro” someone could explain how it’s not a joke, how there are some words have such hateful roots they shouldn’t be used by most people. Like I said, I’m optimistic.

I need to reiterate because someone is going to take this the wrong way--I’m obviously not defending that jerk, I’m just saying the whole torch and pitchfork attitude really rustles my jimmies. I kinda like that this man is socializing with relatively socially aware people. I ain’t saying he’s going to be redeemed, but with a following like his, any good is good.

but tbh I think I’m just tired and I can’t bring myself to shame deppo for being at a group event with him.

Oh my god, I'm watching Emma's livestream and she just mentioned how there was no awkwardness and how everyone gets along. I don't know why but I found that hilarious.

She said that she brought up to put some rumors to rest haha I guess I stand corrected about her checking her indirects here

Missed the editing window by a few seconds on my last post oops

But anyway, when they were playing Truth Bombs, the question was "if emma was a dessert, what would she be" and the winning answer was a bowl of salt and Emma thought Dan gave that answer (I would think that to)

It'd be funnier if it was Phil tbh He definitely invented this game to be the shady bastard he is deep inside.

It turned out to be PJ who wrote that answer.
Now I want to know what they wrote on PDP's sheet.

I swear, it’s even funnier knowing it was PJ. I want to know more about emma and PJ’s relationship now…

I've personally been a little surprised that Felix (who I agree is abhorrent) wants to be around Deppy at all, as it is highly unlikely that they are heterosexual, and are most likely in a loving committed relationship, which runs counter to the beliefs he seems to support. Honestly, the whole thing puzzles me. I don't keep up with Felix, nor will I ever watch anything he makes, so I won't know if he seems to show any "character development" unless I read about it here, but it doesn't sound like any progress has been made on that front.

I also think they (at least Dan) is self-aware enough and consciously-evolved enough to have given the topic some thought. I'd love for him/them to address the topic. (not holding my breath though; blue is not my color )

On a personal level, my heart goes out to you. The rhetoric I hear in the news daily terrifies me, (and I'm of the plain vanilla privileged class, just female, but still . . .). I'm very fortunate to live in one of the most diverse cities in the US, and I don't know where you live, but if your ever in a position to relocate, I believe you'd find it to be a place where you'd be welcomed with open arms!

I will probably regret this post but i don't believe Felix is homophobic or racist. He is blunt, stuborn and potentialy dangerous because his slips or offensive/disgusting jokes, jokes are easily taken out of context and he should know that. But saying that what he done and what he did is past forgivable and because of it dnp should not even be in the same room with him is not so obvious. This thing is blown out of proportion here.

Yeah, felix has said a lot of really harmful and offensive shit to a lot of minorities, but he’s never done anything to suggest he’s homophobic. Tbh (still not defending pdp btw), his reaction to being kicked out of his old apt. for potentially homophobic reasons indicate the opposite. He’s done a lot of bad things, those are what we should focus on (not a call out to the original poster, just a general response to the comments suggesting this, along with those referencing rape jokes…he ditched those around the same time as dan I believe, we should stay on topical matters).

Also, like, Phil has been actual irl friends with PJ since at least 2009, so we shouldn't underestimate the power of not-wanting-to-isolate-yourself-from-a-friendship-due-to-one-asshole.

tl;dr: pdp sucks. Also let's all watch this video together I rediscovered this gem it'll cheer us up

[katemko]

I've spent more than a couple hours thinking about this.
I am an asian-american/native hawaiian female, in a very non-trump friendly state. a coworker i worked closely with in my previous job agreed with a lot of trump's policies and voted for him. my grandfather was born in a japanese american internment camp. my family has looked racism in the face. but i didn't ever bring up politics or anything remotely confrontational with him. the one time we discussed the election one-on-one, he brought it up.

the last thing i needed at work was conflict of any kind. my goal (along w doing my work of course) was to get along with everybody and i did. sometimes the best thing you can do, everyone's comfort and boundaries considered, is to just get along with everyone. i have faith in them, and i think that's simply what they're trying to do. get along with everybody. and if i faulted them for that, i'd be a hypocrite.

i do want one of them to talk about this in a liveshow please and thank you

[mathsniel]

I've personally been a little surprised that Felix (who I agree is abhorrent) wants to be around Deppy at all, as it is highly unlikely that they are heterosexual, and are most likely in a loving committed relationship, which runs counter to the beliefs he seems to support. Honestly, the whole thing puzzles me. I don't keep up with Felix, nor will I ever watch anything he makes, so I won't know if he seems to show any "character development" unless I read about it here, but it doesn't sound like any progress has been made on that front.

I also think they (at least Dan) is self-aware enough and consciously-evolved enough to have given the topic some thought. I'd love for him/them to address the topic. (not holding my breath though; blue is not my color )

On a personal level, my heart goes out to you. The rhetoric I hear in the news daily terrifies me, (and I'm of the plain vanilla privileged class, just female, but still . . .). I'm very fortunate to live in one of the most diverse cities in the US, and I don't know where you live, but if your ever in a position to relocate, I believe you'd find it to be a place where you'd be welcomed with open arms!

I will probably regret this post but i don't believe Felix is homophobic or racist. He is blunt, stuborn and potentialy dangerous because his slips or offensive/disgusting jokes, jokes are easily taken out of context and he should know that. But saying that what he done and what he did is past forgivable and because of it dnp should not even be in the same room with him is not so obvious. This thing is blown out of proportion here.

I 100% agree with you but havent posted because of how many people seem to be incredibly aggresive about the entire issue?

If youd watched any of felix's content youd see he isnt actually racist/homophobic (Im not a fan but i can see this). So many people making assumptions that just because you use a slur, automatically you hold a variety of different beliefs even if your actions say different.

Has anyone ever found an example of him saying that he genuinely believes people are inferior to him based on sexuality or race? Maybe id side with the rest of idb then.

This right here. Pewdiepie doesn't actually believe BAME people are beneath him. He doesn't think of women as inferior, and he doesn't think the LGB community are wrong/shouldn't be allowed (I'm not including trans or queer people in that, because honestly, the likelihood is he doesn't support enby/gq and trans folks, but a lot of that comes down to education and so as a trans* person I'm going to gloss over it, it's different to him using racist language in my personal books). And that's the actual definition of racist/misogynistic/homophobic/etc. "A person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.". He isn't a racist.

Pewdiepie is a very #edgy man, who plays up to his audience, as some people have already talked about. He is embedded in a culture of internet gaming and internet trolling in which many, many people swear and use horrific things for fun. This is the culture that made "triggered", an actual term, into first a meme, and then a general day to day word to use. This is the culture that made the idea of drinking bleach or hanging yourself a ""humorous"" thing to say. This is the culture that shared the hell out of leaked nude photos of celebrities, that mock SJWs and that, yes, use racist terms, and some homophobic terms, out of context without caring about the histories behind the words, because they are that self absorbed.

Does the fact he's in this culture as deep as he is make it right? Hell no. I wish he would listen and I wish he would understand and try and improve. He does deserve to be spoken to by his friends about what he's done and what he's said. He does need to listen to the complaints in full, rather than just the bits about where he went wrong. And people do need to stop forgiving him and other creators like him for these sort of actions, actions that reek of immaturity and a lack of awareness of other people and other views.

As with Dan and Phil - they likely don't see that side of Felix. He almost definitely doesn't use that sort of racist/xenophobic language outside of on the web, and I can't see Dan and Phil gaming with Felix like I can see them gaming with PJ. They've probably heard him made #triggered comments, but that's it. They will see Felix as a very, very different person than us - as a person without the internet persona, and I doubt they watch most of his videos. It's got to be hard connecting the person you see online, and the person you talk to about video games and memes. Also, Phil stays out of social justice stuff for a reason - it's a lot of work and it's a very tiring subject, it doesn't fit the view of him he's willing to share, and it's something he is never going to be able to do right. Dan is involved, but again, it's a minimum. He joked about why in his diss track - "can’t make toast without Tumblr saying you’re problematic". He will literally never make all of us happy, which is why he doesn't bring it up that much. They both mean well, they both do try, and as we see at most 4 hours of their life in a week we have no idea if they act upon these issues normally.

Long ramble is long and probably not as coherent as I would like, but I have a lecture to get ready for and I wanted to bash this out quickly.

[dontpanic]

sorry for the double post I justtt missed the editing window.

The problem I have with them still being friendly with Felix is that it's not the same as you or I hanging out with someone with offensive views out of convenience. Felix has a massive public platform which he wilfully uses to be racist. D&P also have a massive public platform. Their relationship is public as well as private and that's a fact they can't ignore when it suits them. Having photographs taken together and posted on the internet is an endorsement of him whether they're prepared to admit it or not.

It makes me very sad that they apparently take it so lightly and don't feel a duty to protect their audience. It's easy for them, as white men, to dismiss Felix as problematic, but not so easy for members of their audience who face racism in their lives. The kindest thing I could possibly say about it is that it's tone deaf and careless in the extreme of people's feelings. They've only got themselves to blame if people have much harsher judgements than that though. Personally, their actions are not good enough. It leaves a very nasty taste and I am judging them. I can't put my fingers in my ears and distract myself with cuteness and I desperately hope they address it properly this week.

I really like your point here, it's a very concise and outlines probably the strongest argument against D&P associating with pdp.

I've come to realize that, due to the environment I grew up in, things like this don't bother me all that much. I would turn my back on deppy in an instant if they acted anywhere close to how felix does, but I don't feel betrayed just by their association with him. They have not publicly endorsed pdp since before the WSJ thing, and still haven't in my book.

Dan only mentioned felix once, and in a negative light, which honestly I'm glad he did because I'd rather know in advance than be blindsided by Marzia's insta pic. Neither Phil nor Dan have mentioned felix on social media or posted any pictures with him. They only way you would see a picture of them with felix would be if you follow someone else at the party. Deppy are not directly supplying their audience with any felix media, which indicates an understanding that most of their audience would not want to consume any form of media involving felix. To do so they would have to go to some other source. And really, that's all I ask for.... they can associate with him as long as they know I don't condone it or want to support felix in any way, even if it's just looking at a picture of him and that ugly beard of his.

But like you said, people have different experiences and some people might even feel betrayed by d&p's association with him.

The question (imo) is, how far do dan and phil have the responsibility to go in altering their personal lives in order to increase their fans' comfort? D&P are obviously aware how controversial it is to be seen with pdp, so it looks like they value going to this event highly. It's an opportunity cost question I guess, and it seems like they're willing to sacrifice some of their followers' comforts--attending this party must have been important to them.

edit: I think I need to make it clear I am quite black, some of this post might come across weird otherwise lol.

all his talk on representation and #blacklivesmatter but i guess he can't seem to put his money where his mouth is.

What else is new? He preaches all day about issues he thinks are important, but when it comes down to actually doing something, suddenly he's radio silent.

I don't understand, just because dan let us down on this issue doesn't mean he's suddenly "radio silent" on everything. He's far more involved in social events and topical issues than most other YouTubers I know of, I don't think that's fair to say of him?

[Ewok]

Excuse me while I tighten the strap on my phan goggles here for a minute:

I'm loving the bed theories (as usual) and I'm impressed with how quick and efficient you all are (as usual)
Overall, I'm on board with the theory that they shared the bed. The twin beds look so tiny for deppy.
The only thing I don't agree about, and feel it goes against the theory, is Emma. While I do believe they may be out to some of their friends, I don't think Emma falls under that category, so I wonder if they would truly make it that obvious with her around.
On the other hand, I don't see where else they could have slept if not in that bedroom, I really don't think those twin beds are big enough for them.

I'm a pretty firm believer that they are together (aka you can pry my beliefs from my cold dead hands), but this idea seriously. plagues. me. So 'if' they are together... who's in the know? Have they had all their friends swear under oath on their first born child and sign a NDA with their blood? Do they deny it to their peers? Do they have to tiptoe around those that don't know? Or are they so just used to having to cover everything up that this is second nature to them?
I think what baffles me the most is, 'if' they are together, how is it that no other YTers have ever slipped up (aside from that one teensy time Jack Howard did in Louise's vlog) or worse, purposely outed them...? Fear of fandom/community backlash? It just makes me wonder because I know that if anyone did ever make any sort of phan exposé, it would get an absolute shit ton of views (and potentially kill that person's YouTube career at the same time, but hey). There are a LOT of fame-hungry assholes with zero integrity on YouTube, I feel like this is a very plausible fear
Anyway, it makes me wonder if the additional pressure of having to hide a relationship is another contributing factor as to why they really stay so low key. I know they're self-proclaimed homebodies who never go outside and all that, but just thinking about having to hide a long-term relationship from millions of people sounds so damn exhausting

Dan hinted at mental health before making his video (its fucking haunting me, I cant stop thinking about it - still!) and in that video he hinted at identity issues. And its not the first time at all; I'm not going to be surprised if an identity video is coming because I honestly feel like it would fit in post-depression video.

Which makes me think of this - I really do also feel like this will be something he addresses in the future. When he made the comment in his liveshow about feeling like he was able to open up and share more, this is immediately where my mind went. I don't think that I could ever expect a 'proper' coming out video, or a phan confirmation or wtfever, and I'm not at all sure what a video discussing his struggles with his identity would pertain... But something?
I just have this stupid gut feeling (as if I can read or predict anything that mysterious little shit does). I don't know. I did have a dream last night of a collab featuring Dan playing the piano and Dodie singing in a similar style to her coming out video, so...? Dan if you're reading this, take notes bud.

I feel like my brain is going to burst thinking about this too hard and I'm not sure it really made sense?? But I needed to get it all out before I go to sleep, lmao

[kuensukki]

Im pretty sure my eyes hurt from rolling so much. All I'm seeing are excuses. Oh he is not racist, oh he is edgy, oh he takes care of his fucking dog. Using a racial slur MORE THAN ONCE in stream where NOTHING IS EDITED indicates that that kind of language is a part of your vocabulary. That you believe in that derogatory term. Building a culture on a shock factor, making ISIS references, promoting an open space for Nazis to choose you as their leader. All this shit tells me a)felix holds racist ideals/internalizes them b)felix provides a safe space for others with preconceptions/stereotypes and overall anti-equality to thrive. Has he ever spoken about any issues in politics that tell me he's isnt racist, no. He chose OUT OF ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD to have someone hold a "death to all jews" poster because why not??! He's never once shown any indication that he's NOT racist yet we MUST assume that he's just edgy because of course why not give someone who already has so much evidence against him the benefit of the doubt. (*directs people who says hes not racist to pdp thread*

Im honestly triggered by how many excuses I see from individuals in the fandom and how many people are trying to pretend like DP and Felix are actually fucking coworkers in the same company or something that have to hang out together. Newsflash: YouTube is independent, people only choose to hang out with people they want to. DP literally never interact with other ytbers and instead choose to stay with their small and predominately white group of YT friends. DP are probably attracted to what Felix and Marzia have, the fame, the money etc. They're human, and they also would likely do whats best for them above whats right. This been said a million times already so Im not wasting my breath. I just want people to stop relating the situation to themselves. When you're a fucking multi-millionaire ytber with a platform which includes poc individuals who look up to you, then tell me how you still maintained a relationship with someone like Felix. Till then, THE SITUATION DOES NOT APPLY.

Another rant thats been bothering me about the phandom in general is how egocentric it is with SJA issues and issues in general. Bring a topic like DP queerbaiting, mental health, or anything LGBTQ related and everyone will acknowledge it. That isnt the case for racial issues. From my experience in both the twitter and tumblr phandoms, poc individuals are very few and so they're the most vocal (there are some non-poc individuals that are amazingly vocal like alittledizzyand catallena) but sometimes it feels like we are the only ones who care. Big twitters chose to ignore felixs problematic behavior or DP'S very obvious cultural appropriation. There is not the same passion, nor the same reaction with things like that and its honestly so disheartening. Every issue should be regarded with the same amount of passion not only those that apply to them.

[LtrllySusan]

Re: Beds
I am not sure how many of you are discussing this out of curiosity and how many want actually phan proof - the latter group should remember that it's party sleepover arrangements and it's completely normal to share with a friend.

Re: Felix
I haven't joined this discussion thusfar because I brought up a PDP video some time ago and got one or two comments about how he shouldn't be watched. I indeed stopped watching him, but that's due to his content that's boring me at the moment.

I agree with whoever said that he's not actually racist and anti-Semitic. It's pretty unfair to say "he's using his platform to be racist" when he said the n-word once during a stream and apologised. Or has he said any other racist things recently?

As I've written a couple of times before, I come more from the livestreaming side of the internet. There's a lot of - very popular - livestreamers that make pretty racists, ableist and sexist jokes, and they are perceived well by the chat (twitch chat is quite something). I personally find those jokes stupid and also wouldn't hesitate to tell people I know not to use them. But no one in the scene stops being friends with someone because of their persona, or if they've had a slipup and said something bad. I don't believe it if anyone claims that they've never said anything offensive. Just that we are not viewed by millions of eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the PDP stream slur. But I think often things are blown out of proportion - for example, the reason he is called anti-Semitic is because of the fivrr video where he paid someone to call Keemstar anti-Semitic as a joke ("Death to all Jews - subscribe to Keemstar" but everyone is leaving out that second part).

While PDP is also frustrating me, he's also just a human with a crazy amount of pressure to perform. And suddenly a lot more eyes than his subscribers (who like his humour) are on him; him not performing cost him his deal with Maker, Revelmode, his YT Red series and (for reasons I don't know) he stopped working with his editors. Call me naive and a privileged white girl but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

As for Deppy, I agree that they are probably out to Melix (there's a PDP video where he's roasting a lot of Youtubers (badly) and about Dan and Phil he only says something like "Are they dating? Well we won't tell ya!").

I hope I won't be torn into shreds because I don't judge Deppy for hanging out with Felix. They are grown up men who can make their own decisions that they base on things they know, and we don't even know half of these things to begin with.

[SquishPhan]

I’m a bit disappointed in Deppy for hanging out with Felix, but as long as they are not promoting him (and they haven’t) I’m not going to really judge them for it.

[missemma]

After seeing the luxury air b&b they stayed in, I guess I am side eyeing Dan and Phil even more. Dan said in his liveshow ‘we are going to see PJ and Sophie this weekend’ as an opening statement to what they were up to at the weekend and whilst he then went on to say that they were also spending it with PDP and Marzia I took this to mean that D&P were going to PJs and then going to spend an evening with Marzia and the others for her birthday but what he actually meant was they had a weekend booked in a luxury apartment with these people. This wasn’t just something that was drawn up in a day or two, it was pre-planned and probably booked for some time. Enough time for them to use an excuse not to go in my opinion.

And also, whilst Dan may have been more vocal about going I am waiting to see if Phil says anything about going there because for some reason, his silence about the whole thing annoys me more than Dan over sharing about it.

[dontpanic]

Im pretty sure my eyes hurt from rolling so much. All I'm seeing are excuses. Oh he is not racist, oh he is edgy, oh he takes care of his fucking dog. Using a racial slur MORE THAN ONCE in stream where NOTHING IS EDITED indicates that that kind of language is a part of your vocabulary. That you believe in that derogatory term. Building a culture on a shock factor, making ISIS references, promoting an open space for Nazis to choose you as their leader. All this shit tells me a)felix holds racist ideals/internalizes them b)felix provides a safe space for others with preconceptions/stereotypes and overall anti-equality to thrive. Has he ever spoken about any issues in politics that tell me he's isnt racist, no. He chose OUT OF ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD to have someone hold a "death to all jews" poster because why not??! He's never once shown any indication that he's NOT racist yet we MUST assume that he's just edgy because of course why not give someone who already has so much evidence against him the benefit of the doubt. (*directs people who says hes not racist to pdp thread*

Im honestly triggered by how many excuses I see from individuals in the fandom and how many people are trying to pretend like DP and Felix are actually fucking coworkers in the same company or something that have to hang out together. Newsflash: YouTube is independent, people only choose to hang out with people they want to. DP literally never interact with other ytbers and instead choose to stay with their small and predominately white group of YT friends. DP are probably attracted to what Felix and Marzia have, the fame, the money etc. They're human, and they also would likely do whats best for them above whats right. This been said a million times already so Im not wasting my breath. I just want people to stop relating the situation to themselves. When you're a fucking multi-millionaire ytber with a platform which includes poc individuals who look up to you, then tell me how you still maintained a relationship with someone like Felix. Till then, THE SITUATION DOES NOT APPLY.

Another rant thats been bothering me about the phandom in general is how egocentric it is with SJA issues and issues in general. Bring a topic like DP queerbaiting, mental health, or anything LGBTQ related and everyone will acknowledge it. That isnt the case for racial issues. From my experience in both the twitter and tumblr phandoms, poc individuals are very few and so they're the most vocal (there are some non-poc individuals that are amazingly vocal like alittledizzyand catallena) but sometimes it feels like we are the only ones who care. Big twitters chose to ignore felixs problematic behavior or DP'S very obvious cultural appropriation. There is not the same passion, nor the same reaction with things like that and its honestly so disheartening. Every issue should be regarded with the same amount of passion not only those that apply to them.

(aww, come on dude, I was just saying I hate people shouting animal abuse, it's silly to say that's me excusing his blatant racist behavior.)


To start off, not that I think you'd take it this way but I'm not attacking you or anything. I love a lot of what you say you're bringing up an important topic.

re: your second point. I disagree, but I'm predominantly part of the idb part of deppy discussion so i'm not an expert on twitter/tumblr stuff. The thing is, we're a Dan and Phil fandom, we care Dan and Phil related topics in this sphere (it's kinda our thing). Queerbaiting, mental health, and LBGTQ topics apply to D&P way more often than race topics, but that doesn't mean the fandom disregards race topics altogether. Look at the huge HUGE discussion on the potential cultural appropriation of their merch... From what I remember this was a huge discussion outside idb as well.

I agree with you in that it's not logical to consider Deppy and felix coworkers in this situation. The fact that they have very different viewerships alone shows this. Pdp is one of the most influential YouTubers, but his influence means nothing to D&P or their audience, heck, Dan and Phil are risking A LOT associating themselves with felix, it would be a lot easier career-wise to distance themselves. It's people like Jack who fit that "coworker" narrative, not D&P.

However, I don't quite understand where you get "DP are probably attracted to what Felix and Marzia have, the fame, the money etc". Phil and Dan already have fame, money, etc. Felix has the most influence over the gaming and drama-y side of YouTube, but aside from maybe Zoe, D&P hold the same type of influence over the vlogger side of YouTube. Felix offers nothing to D&P's career, nor does he have anything D&P could potentially covet. Felix has more money, yeah, but they're prob both in similar tax brackets, there's nothing for them to covet.

Are you suggesting they want to hang out with more rich people? Because that doesn't really fit with what we all know about them (and either way, they don't have a shortage of rich contacts, they could easily hang out with less controversial people).

I think I understand what you're trying to convey; they get something out of their relationship with Felix that they value more than the emotional hurt felix's racist actions inflicts upon a part of their audience, and they should choose their audience over their relationship with felix, and that D&P are on the wrong side of this moral issue. I can only talk about my experience, but to me, considering the context of felix's offensive actions, I do not feel betrayed by D&P associating themselves with him as long as they make it clear they don't approve of his actions (still side-eyeing them tho). However, I understand completely how others can feel more hurt than I, and I really feel for everyone who is effected by this.

I don't have a resolution to this problem, though--D&P are in a lose-lose situation. If they refuse to engage in any social setting where Felix is present they risk losing their 8+ year friendship with PJ (the link they have to felix/marzia in the first place and probably the reason they associate with him at all). If they do what they're doing now they're breaking the trust of some individuals in their fanbase, and they're suggesting they don't take felix's extremely offensive verbage seriously.

They no doubt will see the negative reactions here and elsewhere, so honestly there's not much we can do except make sure Dan addresses this issue (obviously Phil isn't going to say shit. I stopped ultra-stanning phil because of things like this, tbh. Dan tries; phil buries his head in the sand, and I lose too much respect in people who do that.)

[malday]

Re: Felix
I haven't joined this discussion thusfar because I brought up a PDP video some time ago and got one or two comments about how he shouldn't be watched. I indeed stopped watching him, but that's due to his content that's boring me at the moment.

I agree with whoever said that he's not actually racist and anti-Semitic. It's pretty unfair to say "he's using his platform to be racist" when he said the n-word once during a stream and apologised. Or has he said any other racist things recently?

As I've written a couple of times before, I come more from the livestreaming side of the internet. There's a lot of - very popular - livestreamers that make pretty racists, ableist and sexist jokes, and they are perceived well by the chat (twitch chat is quite something). I personally find those jokes stupid and also wouldn't hesitate to tell people I know not to use them. But no one in the scene stops being friends with someone because of their persona, or if they've had a slipup and said something bad. I don't believe it if anyone claims that they've never said anything offensive. Just that we are not viewed by millions of eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the PDP stream slur. But I think often things are blown out of proportion - for example, the reason he is called anti-Semitic is because of the fivrr video where he paid someone to call Keemstar anti-Semitic as a joke ("Death to all Jews - subscribe to Keemstar" but everyone is leaving out that second part).

While PDP is also frustrating me, he's also just a human with a crazy amount of pressure to perform. And suddenly a lot more eyes than his subscribers (who like his humour) are on him; him not performing cost him his deal with Maker, Revelmode, his YT Red series and (for reasons I don't know) he stopped working with his editors. Call me naive and a privileged white girl but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He said the n-word, apologized, and the next day he almost said it again on stream, shows how honest his apology is.
Poor guy, he has so much pressure to perform that he decided to turn into an asshole (or did he just show his true self, since you say otherwise it was just "performance"), it's so hard not being an asshole on youtube. It's not like he could've taken his content in any other direction but chose this one and became a "red pill" alt-right posterboy. Good for you if you have become desensitized to misogynism and racist slurs, it's not like that's exactly the problem with someone with a big platform catering to and encouraging that behavior.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people gave him the benefit of the doubt when the fiverr thing happened, and were even sympathetic when the WSJ did that out of context article, but they were eventually turned off because of his repeat offenses, and not for a one time thing.(When he first said the n-word in a video, people let it slide because of the context he used it, but he didn't stop there did he).
Don't think that everyone here is basing their opinion about Felix on things taken out of context, i'm surely not.

[blackdenim]

Im pretty sure my eyes hurt from rolling so much. All I'm seeing are excuses. Oh he is not racist, oh he is edgy, oh he takes care of his fucking dog. Using a racial slur MORE THAN ONCE in stream where NOTHING IS EDITED indicates that that kind of language is a part of your vocabulary. That you believe in that derogatory term. Building a culture on a shock factor, making ISIS references, promoting an open space for Nazis to choose you as their leader. All this shit tells me a)felix holds racist ideals/internalizes them b)felix provides a safe space for others with preconceptions/stereotypes and overall anti-equality to thrive. Has he ever spoken about any issues in politics that tell me he's isnt racist, no. He chose OUT OF ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD to have someone hold a "death to all jews" poster because why not??! He's never once shown any indication that he's NOT racist yet we MUST assume that he's just edgy because of course why not give someone who already has so much evidence against him the benefit of the doubt. (*directs people who says hes not racist to pdp thread*

Im honestly triggered by how many excuses I see from individuals in the fandom and how many people are trying to pretend like DP and Felix are actually fucking coworkers in the same company or something that have to hang out together. Newsflash: YouTube is independent, people only choose to hang out with people they want to. DP literally never interact with other ytbers and instead choose to stay with their small and predominately white group of YT friends. DP are probably attracted to what Felix and Marzia have, the fame, the money etc. They're human, and they also would likely do whats best for them above whats right. This been said a million times already so Im not wasting my breath. I just want people to stop relating the situation to themselves. When you're a fucking multi-millionaire ytber with a platform which includes poc individuals who look up to you, then tell me how you still maintained a relationship with someone like Felix. Till then, THE SITUATION DOES NOT APPLY.

Another rant thats been bothering me about the phandom in general is how egocentric it is with SJA issues and issues in general. Bring a topic like DP queerbaiting, mental health, or anything LGBTQ related and everyone will acknowledge it. That isnt the case for racial issues. From my experience in both the twitter and tumblr phandoms, poc individuals are very few and so they're the most vocal (there are some non-poc individuals that are amazingly vocal like alittledizzyand catallena) but sometimes it feels like we are the only ones who care. Big twitters chose to ignore felixs problematic behavior or DP'S very obvious cultural appropriation. There is not the same passion, nor the same reaction with things like that and its honestly so disheartening. Every issue should be regarded with the same amount of passion not only those that apply to them.

I just wanted to cosign everything you've said above. The vast majority of users on this site/the Phandom in general are not POC in my experience (I am not a POC myself), and therefore cannot - or will not - relate to racism in the same way that they relate to people being homophobic, discussing mental health, etc. so the issue gets brushed to the side.

I am fortunate to be in a position of relative privilege as a white, straight woman in a first world country so it would be easy for me to let a lot slide because it 'doesn't affect me'. But my policy is that if a person's actions weren't directly offensive to me (e.g. PDP using the N-word, although it offends me deeply, it isn't a slur about me), it isn't my place to forgive them. To my mind, if POC find Felix's actions, and D&Ps continued association to him, unforgivable, then so do I. I don't know if this is the right way to go about it, but it's the way I've always done it, and I feel really sad that others in the Phandom are so blinded by their love for D&P that they can't acknowledge that this is bad behaviour on their part - or even are able to defend PDP.

I also think that people are removing autonomy from D&P's actions by saying 'Felix has a lot of YT influence' 'it's a work thing' etc. No one is forcing them to go to that party or be friends with Felix and Marzia. It's not like a Christmas party where you sometimes have to grit your teeth and listen to your boss talk about how the country is going to be better after Brexit because there'll be less immigration. As @kuensukki says, YT is a freelance job. They're all working for themselves, on their own brand, independently of one another. Yes it's useful to have connections, but D&P aren't really part of any YouTube 'community' so they clearly don't think it has that much value. Felix might still have the most subs on YT, but he certainly doesn't have the most influence anymore: I would imagine almost all of his videos are demonetized, and they aren't trying desperately to suck up to other big creators on the platform in the same way. To my mind, Dan and Phil have far more influence than PDP - a far more loyal fanbase, they still get lucrative brand deals, run merch for a lot of other Creators, are able to partner with external companies to tour and produce games, etc.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that they genuinely enjoy his company and his racist behaviour - which isn't accidental, as someone else noted he actively moved away from the D&P style 'fangirl' audience and towards the edgy/alt-right audience he has now a couple of years ago: Felix is clever and it's worth remembering that no one just 'falls into' that level of YouTube success - isn't enough to stop them from wanting to associate with him. To my mind, that's extremely disappointing: I expect more from Dan and Phil.

I'm not saying un-stan, it's not that simple - we're all flawed human beings, but I think it's important to recognise flaws in D&P and call them out on it instead of brushing it under the carpet. If they choose to continue the same behaviour that's their decision and at that point, if they continue to be this friendly with Felix, I think I personally would decide to stop consuming their content.

[plath]

I do think it's interesting (and perhaps a little unfair) that the main criticism seems to be leveled at Dan, while Phil is also there. Dan is at least trying(YMMV on how performative that is) whereas Phil never sticks his head above the parapets. It kind of reminds me of the way that as soon as a female celebrity identifies as a feminist, she's often torn to shreds in social justice circles - whatever she's doing, she's doing wrong, or she's not doing enough, or she's doing too much. SJ discourse often seems to spend more time criticizing actual feminists and allies than people who are flagrantly and blatantly misogynistic or directly opposed to social justice concepts. It's crazy! Are we trying to effect change here, or just score points on doing things "correctly"? Basically, I think it's unfair to castigate Dan for this while letting Phil off the hook. Dan at least has acknowledged that there is a problem. Phil's silence is deafening.

*inserts WHO SAID THAT??? gif*

I think everyone has acknowledged that it's Dp as a unit that made this decision to remain close to Felix so both obviously have equal blame. People might have mentioned dan more because he's the one that communicated to us that he would "have a chat with Felix" therefore giving himself the responsibility to educate someone who will never be educated. He might have been chosen out of the two to try to save their asses when the pics came out. Also he's revered as being very woke and aware. In a sense he is more open, more open than phil, but still pretty subtle about certain political views but he's so idolized and praised for every small statement he makes that the same should be true when his actions don't reflect this image that people try to make of him.


No one thinks phil is woke, he's the whitest man I know and lives in blissful ignorance but no one is out there making a long tumblr post about his political views. He gets less of the direct heat because he's never really given the impression that he's interested in politics and people know that off the bat hence less expectation and less disappointment. Dan has more of an open communication thing where he sometimes subtly shares his passion for SJA issues therefore it seems more hypocritical to stand by a man like Felix when youve taken the opposite stance.

Anyway I've done all my therapeutic rambling on this topic. I'm obviously having some time trying to wrap my head around it. Yay beds and bad gifts

Yes, I get that point - I just fundamentally disagree with it. What I was trying to express with my initial post is that I don't think that just because Dan shows an interest in social justice, he should be held to a higher standard than people who don't. I definitely can see where you guys are coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I think people who show an interest in social justice are at least trying (whether or not it's sincere is ofc up to the individual to judge) and personally I prefer that to those who maintain a strategic silence and don't engage with any controversial topics at all to save their own asses. Dan's hypocrisy is a valid point but Phil's silence seems to me like cowardice. Like I said - Dan has at least acknowledged there is a problem with Felix. I don't think it's fair to drag Dan more because he pretends to be woke - that's a major problem I have with online social justice discourse in general, where showing an interest in social justice automatically means that you are held to a much higher standard than regular folks who are left in peace to live in happy ignorance/engage freely in the exploitation of toxic power structures.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point, but hopefully this is legible. Both Dan and Phil are equally culpable, and I hope the fandom narratives of Dan as problematic and Phil as innocent smol bean don't overshadow this very unpleasant decision that they've both made in being associating with the poster child of the alt-reich.

plath and Katka, because of your avatars, I find it hilarious when you both post at the same time, it happened now twice in the last couple of days, it's perfect

I've noticed that too! It's funny, isn't it? Maybe Katka is my secret twin....let's see if our posts align again.

My original icon had artistic nudity in it, which I didn't realise it was against the rules, so I had to find a different one and I thought I'd stick with the artistic theme.

[malday]

If youd watched any of felix's content youd see he isnt actually racist/homophobic (Im not a fan but i can see this). So many people making assumptions that just because you use a slur, automatically you hold a variety of different beliefs even if your actions say different.

Yeah man how dare people even assume you might be racist if your go to insult in moments of anger is a racial slur, instead of just saying asshole, or motherfucker. People are wild and reaching out of thin air.

</sarcasm>

[Philena]

I just wanted to cosign everything you've said above. The vast majority of users on this site/the Phandom in general are not POC in my experience (I am not a POC myself), and therefore cannot - or will not - relate to racism in the same way that they relate to people being homophobic, discussing mental health, etc. so the issue gets brushed to the side.

I am fortunate to be in a position of relative privilege as a white, straight woman in a first world country so it would be easy for me to let a lot slide because it 'doesn't affect me'. But my policy is that if a person's actions weren't directly offensive to me (e.g. PDP using the N-word, although it offends me deeply, it isn't a slur about me), it isn't my place to forgive them. To my mind, if POC find Felix's actions, and D&Ps continued association to him, unforgivable, then so do I. I don't know if this is the right way to go about it, but it's the way I've always done it, and I feel really sad that others in the Phandom are so blinded by their love for D&P that they can't acknowledge that this is bad behaviour on their part - or even are able to defend PDP.

I also think that people are removing autonomy from D&P's actions by saying 'Felix has a lot of YT influence' 'it's a work thing' etc. No one is forcing them to go to that party or be friends with Felix and Marzia. It's not like a Christmas party where you sometimes have to grit your teeth and listen to your boss talk about how the country is going to be better after Brexit because there'll be less immigration. As @kuensukki says, YT is a freelance job. They're all working for themselves, on their own brand, independently of one another. Yes it's useful to have connections, but D&P aren't really part of any YouTube 'community' so they clearly don't think it has that much value. Felix might still have the most subs on YT, but he certainly doesn't have the most influence anymore: I would imagine almost all of his videos are demonetized, and they aren't trying desperately to suck up to other big creators on the platform in the same way. To my mind, Dan and Phil have far more influence than PDP - a far more loyal fanbase, they still get lucrative brand deals, run merch for a lot of other Creators, are able to partner with external companies to tour and produce games, etc.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that they genuinely enjoy his company and his racist behaviour - which isn't accidental, as someone else noted he actively moved away from the D&P style 'fangirl' audience and towards the edgy/alt-right audience he has now a couple of years ago: Felix is clever and it's worth remembering that no one just 'falls into' that level of YouTube success - isn't enough to stop them from wanting to associate with him. To my mind, that's extremely disappointing: I expect more from Dan and Phil.

I'm not saying un-stan, it's not that simple - we're all flawed human beings, but I think it's important to recognise flaws in D&P and call them out on it instead of brushing it under the carpet. If they choose to continue the same behaviour that's their decision and at that point, if they continue to be this friendly with Felix, I think I personally would decide to stop consuming their content.

I absolutely stand behind this sentiment. Deppy doesn't need our defense, and pewds sure as fuck doesn't need any defense at all. Shout out to everyone else who has spoken out much more eloquently than I ever could.

[captainspacecoat]

Somehow I managed to write a whole 2500 word essay about youtube culture and feign enthusiasm about it today for my uni degree, and I have no idea how I did it because it's such a sore topic for me right now. But that's over, thank god.

I have a question for people like me, who are supremely put off by Dan and Phil hanging out with Felix. What next? Because I'm feeling really torn and upset right now. I don't think it's realistic at this point to ever expect Dan and Phil to drop Felix, which had been my hope prior to Dan's last liveshow. Yet, Dan and Phil and their content provide a form of escapism to me that has been absolutely essential to getting through the past few years. And I know that's probably not healthy, but it's just how it is. The people I've met, and the discussions on here, etc etc have become really important to me and I don't want to lose that. I don't want to stop watching Dan and Phil, but I'm finding it so difficult to reconcile this.

Am I being overdramatic? Will I laugh at myself in a few days time? Maybe I need to just readjust the way I had previously conceived of Dan and Phil and their morals, and move forward with lower expectations and a heightened wariness for their potential bullshit. I feel like it's important to stick around and hold them accountable, and I honestly hope they've read the discussion on here and on tumblr, and that they sincerely consider what we have to say. I feel like they probably won't address it, but I think the only thing that would make me feel better about this whole thing is to have an extensive conversation with them about it. Which will probably never conceivably happen, but I just want them to know how much this has affected so many people, and at the very least for them to say something to condemn him. Which will probably come across as shallow anyway given that they just spent the weekend with him seemingly quite happily. Ughhhhh this is honestly so shitty, and I can only imagine how much more shitty it must be for people who have been directly affected by Felix's actions.

I guess I'm just basically wondering how best to move forward from this.

[VengefulBlue]

man, i'm not even gonna weigh in on the felix thing bc honestly i see both sides. but i have to ask, if you guys think our boys are trash/immoral/etc, why are you still here? i've seen a lot of folks saying dnp have selfish motives or don't care or should do better, that not doing the right thing at the right time for the right reasons is inexcusable. but if you have such a low opinion of someone, why not walk away? that's not rhetorical, i'm genuinely interested in the reasoning.

(i was loving the question thing and then the momentary distraction of the sleeping arrangements, but now we're back at the emotionally charged negative shit. hopefully they'll give us something new to discuss today or tomorrow)

[moaninglisa]

I was all on board as your “bedroom #3” is the only one shown to have the clip on lamps. The other two double rooms have bedside tables with lamps on them and the one trundle bed we see has a self behind it with a lamp, not in reach of the pillow, though the one we don’t see could easily have a clip on lamp on it. Still, why try to argue against the simplest answer?

Though it did strike me as odd that D&P would be given the nicest and most spacious bedroom, with what looks like the biggest bed, over say the birthday girl and her partner, but maybe that’s just how they like to treat guests? (But they certainly didn’t give it to just Phil Lester when there were other couples that needed sleeping space).

But then I checked out Marzia’s blog... her second photo is of that upside down triangular shaped window (it’s between two gables and its the only one like that in the house, the other bedrooms all have rectangular windows), which appears to be the master bedroom based on the Airbnb website’s description:

“The home offers exceptional space with a large open plan living, dining and kitchen area. A double sided wood burner in the centre of the living area is fully functional and guests are welcome to enjoy this feature. Also on the ground floor is a shower room and one double bedroom.

As you continue upstairs you arrive at the second double bedroom and the main bathroom. Just past these is a twin room with single beds that can both be pulled out in to doubles.

The master bedroom located at the far end of the property features an en-suite shower, super king sized bed and a picturesque view over part of Rye.”

Let’s see: Upstairs, room with a view, biggest bed, en-suite shower (just behind the wall that the headboard is against). Yep that’s the master. And it seems based on the picture she took with a purse, make-up mirror and various grooming items on the table in front of that window, that she and Felix claimed that bedroom on the first night. (Friday, before the guests arrived on Saturday, she writes).

So unless the master was offered/given up to D&P through some game that they won, I’m going to venture a guess that our boys took the room with the single beds and slept Bert and Ernie style (and that the unpictured single had a lamp clipped to the top). Sorry guys. Not that sleeping arrangements at a weekend getaway with friends means anything.

Still Rye looks beautiful.

under a spoiler once again because there's a more important discussion going on.

I think you're right... It is more likely that they shared what I call room #4 anyway, considering the other people are in confirmed, public relationships while dan and phil are in the maybe-they-are-maybe-they-are-not zone.