Dan & Phil Part 57: Pinky and the Brain

[blackdenim]

man, i'm not even gonna weigh in on the felix thing bc honestly i see both sides. but i have to ask, if you guys think our boys are trash/immoral/etc, why are you still here? i've seen a lot of folks saying dnp have selfish motives or don't care or should do better, that not doing the right thing at the right time for the right reasons is inexcusable. but if you have such a low opinion of someone, why not walk away? that's not rhetorical, i'm genuinely interested in the reasoning.

(i was loving the question thing and then the momentary distraction of the sleeping arrangements, but now we're back at the emotionally charged negative shit. hopefully they'll give us something new to discuss today or tomorrow)

I don't think they're trash or immoral, we don't know what goes on in other people's heads, and I believe that everyone's decisions and actions are more nuanced than we can understand. But I still do think they could do better/be better, and I'm still disappointed in their actions which feel to me like they are tacitly condoning Felix's racism.

In answer to your question, I am still here because as @captainspacecoat said, D&P are a source of joy and escapism for me and selfishly, I don't want to give that up. I've also been watching Phil for like 10 years now, and Dan for about 7, and the completist in me likes the idea of sticking with them until the bitter end.

Obviously it's early days as the LS comment was only on Tuesday and the picture only came out over the weekend, but if I continue to feel this uncomfortable about it all and/or they continue to flaunt their relationship to Felix, I would probably consider leaving the Phandom (that sounds so dramatic!) or at least going back to being a casual fan - not posting/lurking here so much probably and definitely not buying any merch etc to actively support them.

I would also be interested to hear from other people who feel strongly about this and how they are reconciling that with being fans of D&P because it's difficult from my point of view. You can always make the 'separate the art from the artist!' argument, but personally I think people do that to make themselves feel better about liking problematic things/people and anyway, the lines on YT are so blurred that it's very difficult to do that.

[alittledizzy]

On the topic of hoping they know how upset the fandom is/people holding them accountable, just out of curiosity I looked at what people have been tweeting them and the only tweets it seems like they're getting about Felix are people asking them to play Truth Bombs. So if Dan and Phil's main indicator of how their audience feels is what their audience says to them directly - I actually think they're gonna stay clueless. This seems to be something being played out more within closed off fandom circles and not being addressed to them head on. I guess it depends on how much you think they lurk, though.

[thewaytobehappy]

*Long time lurker, hi. Also probably unpopular opinions incoming*

To start then.

I would be more receptive to accusations of Felix being racist/nazi if the term wasn't thrown around like candy these days. Mark my words, at this rate, in a few years the term will have lost all meaning and real racism will go unchecked because noone will take it seriously anymore.

It's honestly the reason why I personally distanced myself from the left, while still upholding liberal values.

I'd also be more receptive to it if the "Phandom" didn't have a real and serious problem with wanting to police and judge who the guys hang out with. It seems they can't spend time/collab with anyone with complaints these days. Even previous Golden Boy Anthony has seemingly fallen from grace these days.

If you really think Felix is the "poster child of the alt reich", then please. PLEASE. Step away from the keyboard. Go outside, take a walk. Call mum or dad so they can give you a reality check. Just STOP and think for a moment.

*I do think the [censored by moderator] comment was wrong, but calling hima racist for a comment amidst gamer rage is ridicilous. I also think Felix is 100% done with the sjw movement after the wsj article.*

[Birdie]

I'm a pretty firm believer that they are together (aka you can pry my beliefs from my cold dead hands), but this idea seriously. plagues. me. So 'if' they are together... who's in the know? Have they had all their friends swear under oath on their first born child and sign a NDA with their blood? Do they deny it to their peers? Do they have to tiptoe around those that don't know? Or are they so just used to having to cover everything up that this is second nature to them?

I think those who know won't go around telling everyone because everyone with closeted LGBTQ friends knows it's an unforgivable offense to out someone. And even people who'd do it with malicious intents won't get very far. Shane Dawson kind of tried with the psychic twins that one time and nobody believed him. I think if Emma B. for example tried to tell people they were together nobody would believe her (not that I think she would do such a thing, just using her as an example). Deppy are pretty powerful in the Youtube world and the phandom turns on everyone who dares to cross them. So someone outing them against their will would be over so fast... Like, there's no gain in it. It's not going to further your career, it's not going to get you positive attention and it's seriously wrong so I don't see this happening even if deppy are actually together.

Felix: Look, he might not think he's racist. He might not be your picture book racist who's actively hating minorities and telling everyone about it. He might even think he's not racist. But his casual racism is still racism. Using racist language, making "edgy" racist jokes is still racism and I wish people would just accept that. Maybe Felix doesn't see himself as a racist. I actually don't think he does. But he's still racist. He's absolutely internalised that shit and even if he thinks of himself as "not a racist", his behaviour is still racist and you can't apologise that away. I actually think this kind of subtle internalised racism is a lot more dangerous than the aggressive outright kind because it's so much easier to excuse as demonstrated right here on IDB. But it does loads of damage.

Maybe Katka is my secret twin....let's see if our posts align again.

They nearly did but then I had to leave the house before I could hit "submit", I'm not even kidding. My avatar is a portrait from the 18th or 19th century or something. I picked it because she looks a bit like me and with older artworks you never have to worry about copyright infringement because it's all public domain by now.

[plath]

Somehow I managed to write a whole 2500 word essay about youtube culture and feign enthusiasm about it today for my uni degree, and I have no idea how I did it because it's such a sore topic for me right now. But that's over, thank god.

I have a question for people like me, who are supremely put off by Dan and Phil hanging out with Felix. What next? Because I'm feeling really torn and upset right now. I don't think it's realistic at this point to ever expect Dan and Phil to drop Felix, which had been my hope prior to Dan's last liveshow. Yet, Dan and Phil and their content provide a form of escapism to me that has been absolutely essential to getting through the past few years. And I know that's probably not healthy, but it's just how it is. The people I've met, and the discussions on here, etc etc have become really important to me and I don't want to lose that. I don't want to stop watching Dan and Phil, but I'm finding it so difficult to reconcile this.

Am I being overdramatic? Will I laugh at myself in a few days time? Maybe I need to just readjust the way I had previously conceived of Dan and Phil and their morals, and move forward with lower expectations and a heightened wariness for their potential bullshit. I feel like it's important to stick around and hold them accountable, and I honestly hope they've read the discussion on here and on tumblr, and that they sincerely consider what we have to say. I feel like they probably won't address it, but I think the only thing that would make me feel better about this whole thing is to have an extensive conversation with them about it. Which will probably never conceivably happen, but I just want them to know how much this has affected so many people, and at the very least for them to say something to condemn him. Which will probably come across as shallow anyway given that they just spent the weekend with him seemingly quite happily. Ughhhhh this is honestly so shitty, and I can only imagine how much more shitty it must be for people who have been directly affected by Felix's actions.

I guess I'm just basically wondering how best to move forward from this.

It's difficult, isn't it? I can relate to a lot of this. I'm going through a really tough time at the minute and Dan's most recent video encouraged me to at least try to look after myself again (ymmv on how much that's working out) so he's recently been a really positive and uplifting influence in my life. And now it's like.......here's a bunch of shit sandwich, guys. I guess we all just struggle with nuance - it's difficult to reconcile a positive influence with a guy who hangs out with the poster child for the alt-reich.

Everyone needs to decide for themselves where they draw the line, and it will be different for everyone. I think everyone needs to make their own decisions on what they're comfortable with. If it's best for people to withdraw, then that's fine - if people want to continue engaging, then that's also fine. Honestly I'd just say you have to decide what's right and necessary for you. I'm not that connected to the phandom (IDB is the only place I really engage, and here only sporadically) but I imagine it'd be even harder to also lose a community and a bunch of friends.

I'm a bit older than some folks in fandom and I remember being heartbroken ten years ago when Gerard Way did something I considered 'problematic' (before there was even a widespread word for that). That felt like a genuine betrayal. I was hurt, confused, shocked. My icon had let me down. I learned a lot from that experience. I think it's worth remembering the old saying that there are two ways to dehumanise people - by dismissing them, and by idolizing them.

"Problematic" call-out culture demands simplicity; it's binary. People are either perfect or they're scum. There's not much room for complexity. Life isn't binary. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't expect the best from Dan and Phil, or criticise them when they let us and themselves down. But these people that we look up to are just people.

Katka we did it again! Your icon is lovely

[thewaytobehappy]

Well plath, I'm sorry if I came of as rude. I'll admit to being a rather blunt person.

I just find the reaction to a picture with a rude gametuber very...worrying I guess?

It also leads me to another serious question. I have plenty of idols, most have been around for a while, but all have then stupid, rude, cringey stuff and sometimes still do. Or sometimes they just do things I don't like personally. How do you guys deal with that in regards to other eople you're a fan off?

[citizen_erased]

man, i'm not even gonna weigh in on the felix thing bc honestly i see both sides. but i have to ask, if you guys think our boys are trash/immoral/etc, why are you still here? i've seen a lot of folks saying dnp have selfish motives or don't care or should do better, that not doing the right thing at the right time for the right reasons is inexcusable. but if you have such a low opinion of someone, why not walk away? that's not rhetorical, i'm genuinely interested in the reasoning.

(i was loving the question thing and then the momentary distraction of the sleeping arrangements, but now we're back at the emotionally charged negative shit. hopefully they'll give us something new to discuss today or tomorrow)

I've been wondering the same thing. Isn't it a bit strange to hold Dan & Phil accountable to such a degree, while simultaneously saying "I'm not unstanning, but"? To me, it's so weird to see people say they should drop Felix for being problematic, that D&P themselves are problematic, yet you're all staying here. Wouldn't the most logical thing, according to your own reasoning, be you drop D&P?

Also out of curiosity: how many of you have actually tweeted/messaged/left a comment somewhere to Dan & Phil about this? I'm not in the phandom anywhere else but here so I haven't seen anything around and I was wondering about it.

[alittledizzy]

I just find the reaction to a picture with a rude gametuber very...worrying I guess?

It may help to not think of this as a reaction to one picture, but as the picture being one more occurrence in a line of events that people are always heated when discussing. The distaste for Dan and Phil associating with Felix is not new; it's brought up with the same regularity that Dan himself mentions Felix, which is every few months - and also generally when Felix has another big fuck up. It definitely isn't that this one picture showed up and out of the blue everyone decided to be mad when before they didn't care.

man, i'm not even gonna weigh in on the felix thing bc honestly i see both sides. but i have to ask, if you guys think our boys are trash/immoral/etc, why are you still here? i've seen a lot of folks saying dnp have selfish motives or don't care or should do better, that not doing the right thing at the right time for the right reasons is inexcusable. but if you have such a low opinion of someone, why not walk away? that's not rhetorical, i'm genuinely interested in the reasoning.

I've been wondering the same thing. Isn't it a bit strange to hold Dan & Phil accountable to such a degree, while simultaneously saying "I'm not unstanning, but"? To me, it's so weird to see people say they should drop Felix for being problematic, that D&P themselves are problematic, yet you're all staying here. Wouldn't the most logical thing, according to your own reasoning, be you drop D&P?

I think there are differing degrees of judgement to people between "said/did thing with directly racist impact" and "friends with someone who said/did thing with directly racist impact" and that seems reasonable to me. People draw their personal lines different places; I'm absolutely not a fan of the idea that if you're upset with someone you should un-stan, because I enjoy a critical fandom and existing in a sphere of fandom that isn't afraid to stick around and discuss when Dan and Phil do something they don't like.

[thewaytobehappy]

@alittledizzy

I guess my concern also in part comes from the, often unreasonable, critisism people that hang with DnP get in general. With their recent collabs I saw so much complaining beforehand about Louise and Hazel and Tom. I don't condone Felix recent comments, but it is a trend I've noticed in the Phandom. It sometimes feels like it's just waiting for something to take offence to.

Or maybe it really is just me. I maintain a very strong "people are gonna be people, and people are gonna be offensive" policy. I like South Park and been working in customer service for years.

[VengefulBlue]

first off, thanks to blackdenim and captainspacecoat for answering my question (even tho captainspacecoat actually answered before i asked). it makes sense to want to keep your entertainment sources (???words) despite them maybe not being great. i hope more people answer, it's interesting and also maybe important.
also thanks to alittledizzy: i definitely don't think people should unstan just because they're upset. i'm more wondering where people draw that line and why. at what point is your fave too problematic?

Life isn't binary. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't expect the best from Dan and Phil, or criticise them when they let us and themselves down. But these people that we look up to are just people.

yes this! i wasn't sure how too articulate my mixed feelings about it, but this is what i'm thinking. i think they can do better, but i personally understand why they wouldn't want to make a big public scene about it. dan tried (poorly) to express that he doesn't approve, and maybe he really did plan on having a talk with felix. or maybe he doesn't feel like fighting over something that seems common sense. or maybe a million other things, we don't know bc we aren't dan. but expecting him to do differently/better than normal people isn't fair, and expecting is different than wanting.

i don't know what the solution is, and i don't know if dnp are doing the best they can, bc i'm not them and i don't know felix or marzia or any of their friends. but they do know their friends, and i think dnp are basically good guys, so i'm leaning towards believing that they're making the choices that make the most sense for them in their specific situation. i think it's definitely fair to tell them that we're unhappy/concerned with their decisions, but ultimately, i'm not gonna tell someone (who i don't know) how they should interact with their friends (who i don't know).

[blackdenim]

I think there are differing degrees of judgement to people between "said/did thing with directly racist impact" and "friends with someone who said/did thing with directly racist impact" and that seems reasonable to me. People draw their personal lines different places; I'm absolutely not a fan of the idea that if you're upset with someone you should un-stan, because I enjoy a critical fandom and existing in a sphere of fandom that isn't afraid to stick around and discuss when Dan and Phil do something they don't like.

Yeah I agree with all of this. I like the fact there are people here who will defend the boys to the death and there are also people who aren't afraid to say when they do things that upset them. I think the fact we have a lot of differing viewpoints and don't shout each other down is what makes this forum a nice place to be and not just a hivemind. It would be dull if everyone who didn't agree with them being friends with Felix just straight up left this forum and stopped interacting with the Phandom in any way, shape or form.

If Dan or Phil had used the same racist language Felix did themselves I would have just stopped being a fan right away to be honest. I like the people I'm a fan of to feel like someone I can relate to and someone I can hold to a high standard and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with anyone I knew was capable of saying such awful things. That they continue to be friends with him is not what I would have wanted from them but they are their own people with their own motives and it makes the whole issue a lot more nuanced.

What does annoy me is the way in which Dan addressed Felix's behaviour: he (and Phil too, I am assuming) clearly knows it's 'wrong' and they 'shouldn't' be friends with him, but don't care. And that's a bit sad really.

@thewaytobehappy I do also agree with your comment above too though, people seem to like to complain about whoever D&P choose to be friends with - unless it's PJ and Sophie or Bryony and Wirrow it feels like, but I think that's a fairly small subset of the Phandom that likes D&P to be really insular (and if we're being honest, codependent) because it's more 'romantic' (in the sense of the 'idealised view of reality' definition more than the lovey-dovey definition). However I think there's a big difference between saying 'I don't like Louise/Anthony/Casper/Tom/Hazel, Dan and Phil shouldn't be collabing with them' and saying 'Felix has displayed racist behaviour, I'm disappointed Dan and Phil are still friends with him'.

[captainspacecoat]

I've been wondering the same thing. Isn't it a bit strange to hold Dan & Phil accountable to such a degree, while simultaneously saying "I'm not unstanning, but"? To me, it's so weird to see people say they should drop Felix for being problematic, that D&P themselves are problematic, yet you're all staying here. Wouldn't the most logical thing, according to your own reasoning, be you drop D&P?

Also out of curiosity: how many of you have actually tweeted/messaged/left a comment somewhere to Dan & Phil about this? I'm not in the phandom anywhere else but here so I haven't seen anything around and I was wondering about it.

I think it's a lot more complicated than that. For me personally, I've been invested in Dan and Phil in varying degrees for almost five years. I've done a lot of growing up in those years, and my interest in them has ebbed and flowed throughout, but since March 2016 I've been consistently invested in them and their content. Dan and Phil - the videos they make, their live shows and tweets, the growth they've demonstrated, the other people in the phandom who I've met and who make content of their own inspired by their interest in Dan and Phil - have been such a bright spot in my life when things have been difficult. As cheesy as it may sound, Dan seemingly becoming more comfortable and open about his sexuality helped me to become more comfortable and open about mine. None of that just goes away in an instant.

So while them hanging out with Felix has genuinely devastated me beyond belief, because it goes against all the values I hold so dear and brought home to me the particular kind of privilege the two of them exist in that allows them to brush off what Felix has done and prioritise his company over the feelings of poc, it's not as easy as it may sound to just wash my hands of them and move on.

And also, I agree with dizzy, I think it's so important as fans of Dan and Phil to remain critical of them, and not to let them get away with this without any consequences. It's disheartening that they don't seem to be getting much backlash on twitter, as I imagine that's where they pay the most attention to what's happening in the phandom, but I don't have a fandom twitter or anything so there's not much I can do about that. I've spoken about it on tumblr and on here as those are the only two places I interact with the phandom.

Also thank you @plath for your reassuring words in response to my last post

[bluntedclaws]

I'm genuinely surprised that people are so mad at Deppy for going to Marzia's party. They were invited, by Marzia, to HER birthday party. They like her. So they went. Yes, obviously they knew Felix was going to be there but they have said and done nothing to indicate that they are still friends with him. Dan said he was going to see his friends PJ, Sophie and Marzia and did NOT include Felix in that list of friends.
What are they supposed to do? Tell Marzia "We really like you but we can't be friends any more because your boyfriend is an asshole."?
It's not fair to expect them so drop friends just because the friends associate with problematic people.

[thewaytobehappy]

I think that's another thing overlooked with the focus on Felix. The guys LIKE Marzia, and have said so several times. They're also close with PJ and Sophie, and have been for years.
Whatever their opinion on Felix is (if they have strong opinion at all),that definitely plays a huge role in that.

Dan and Phil are also two adults who will see much more dimension to Felix then we ever will. That too plays a part. There is much more to him then edge lord Pewdiepie.

Lastly, as someone who has cut a person out of her life last year (not for political reasons), I can tell you it's hard. I cried, I felt awful for the other people involved. I don't regret it, but damn, it was one of the hardest decisions I ever made.

[malday]

*Long time lurker, hi. Also probably unpopular opinions incoming*

To start then.

I would be more receptive to accusations of Felix being racist/nazi if the term wasn't thrown around like candy these days. Mark my words, at this rate, in a few years the term will have lost all meaning and real racism will go unchecked because noone will take it seriously anymore.

It's honestly the reason why I personally distanced myself from the left, while still upholding liberal values.

I'd also be more receptive to it if the "Phandom" didn't have a real and serious problem with wanting to police and judge who the guys hang out with. It seems they can't spend time/collab with anyone with complaints these days. Even previous Golden Boy Anthony has seemingly fallen from grace these days.

If you really think Felix is the "poster child of the alt reich", then please. PLEASE. Step away from the keyboard. Go outside, take a walk. Call mum or dad so they can give you a reality check. Just STOP and think for a moment.

*I do think the [censored by moderator] comment was wrong, but calling hima racist for a comment amidst gamer rage is ridicilous. I also think Felix is 100% done with the sjw movement after the wsj article.*

^Textbook example of desensitization.

But phew! Good thing a 28 year old man with a 12 year old's gamer rage is done with the evil "sjw movement", he's an intellectual with such a complex knowledge and understanding of society he didn't even think there are "serious nazis" anymore, until Charlottesville happened. Too bad he didn't call his mum and dad to give him a reality check and tell him to grow up.
What movement did he embrace when he was done with the sjw boogeyman?

On the topic of hoping they know how upset the fandom is/people holding them accountable, just out of curiosity I looked at what people have been tweeting them and the only tweets it seems like they're getting about Felix are people asking them to play Truth Bombs. So if Dan and Phil's main indicator of how their audience feels is what their audience says to them directly - I actually think they're gonna stay clueless. This seems to be something being played out more within closed off fandom circles and not being addressed to them head on. I guess it depends on how much you think they lurk, though.

I agree, I only saw youtube comments asking them to collab and very few comments reacting negatively to the mention of Felix.
That's why i understand when Dan used "problematic dad" to describe him, at that time that's how it looked like the phandom was treating pewdiepie.
I think they would have gotten more direct responses if they were the ones who posted that picture or if they uploaded a video with him.

[allsaintshowell]

Im pretty sure my eyes hurt from rolling so much. All I'm seeing are excuses. Oh he is not racist, oh he is edgy, oh he takes care of his fucking dog. Using a racial slur MORE THAN ONCE in stream where NOTHING IS EDITED indicates that that kind of language is a part of your vocabulary. That you believe in that derogatory term. Building a culture on a shock factor, making ISIS references, promoting an open space for Nazis to choose you as their leader. All this shit tells me a)felix holds racist ideals/internalizes them b)felix provides a safe space for others with preconceptions/stereotypes and overall anti-equality to thrive. Has he ever spoken about any issues in politics that tell me he's isnt racist, no. He chose OUT OF ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD to have someone hold a "death to all jews" poster because why not??! He's never once shown any indication that he's NOT racist yet we MUST assume that he's just edgy because of course why not give someone who already has so much evidence against him the benefit of the doubt. (*directs people who says hes not racist to pdp thread*

Im honestly triggered by how many excuses I see from individuals in the fandom and how many people are trying to pretend like DP and Felix are actually fucking coworkers in the same company or something that have to hang out together. Newsflash: YouTube is independent, people only choose to hang out with people they want to. DP literally never interact with other ytbers and instead choose to stay with their small and predominately white group of YT friends. DP are probably attracted to what Felix and Marzia have, the fame, the money etc. They're human, and they also would likely do whats best for them above whats right. This been said a million times already so Im not wasting my breath. I just want people to stop relating the situation to themselves. When you're a fucking multi-millionaire ytber with a platform which includes poc individuals who look up to you, then tell me how you still maintained a relationship with someone like Felix. Till then, THE SITUATION DOES NOT APPLY.

Another rant thats been bothering me about the phandom in general is how egocentric it is with SJA issues and issues in general. Bring a topic like DP queerbaiting, mental health, or anything LGBTQ related and everyone will acknowledge it. That isnt the case for racial issues. From my experience in both the twitter and tumblr phandoms, poc individuals are very few and so they're the most vocal (there are some non-poc individuals that are amazingly vocal like alittledizzyand catallena) but sometimes it feels like we are the only ones who care. Big twitters chose to ignore felixs problematic behavior or DP'S very obvious cultural appropriation. There is not the same passion, nor the same reaction with things like that and its honestly so disheartening. Every issue should be regarded with the same amount of passion not only those that apply to them.

honestly, i was going to type out a whole essay about how racism show itself in things like casually using racial slurs when you're very aware of what said slur means and why you shouldn't use it, but i realized i don't owe this forum my energy or time. i do realize that f*lix has a ridiculous amount of power over dnp and they were at marzia's birthday, not his, but sometimes you have to have those uncomfortable confrontations at inopportune moments or nothing is going to happen.

[thewaytobehappy]

I'm sorry if you perceive as desentisized, malday. Because that's actually a state I actively try to avoid.
I very much care about social issues. I just think the way the left as a whole currenlty goes about this will ultimately only undermine this.

I do however, also make an active attempt to explore both the left and the right, because I was taught from an early age that there is always more then one truth and pov. I personally feel this has helped me tremendously to become a balanced individual. Left of center, so to speak. And occasionally both sides and funny, or vexing and downright infuriating. Think of me what you want for that *shrug*

As far as what "movement" Felix subsribes to, if any, thank God he was smart enough to take the alt-rights bait. Whatever hole the hole the left and right wanted him in, he hasn't done it.

[LtrllySusan]

Re: Felix
I haven't joined this discussion thusfar because I brought up a PDP video some time ago and got one or two comments about how he shouldn't be watched. I indeed stopped watching him, but that's due to his content that's boring me at the moment.

I agree with whoever said that he's not actually racist and anti-Semitic. It's pretty unfair to say "he's using his platform to be racist" when he said the n-word once during a stream and apologised. Or has he said any other racist things recently?

As I've written a couple of times before, I come more from the livestreaming side of the internet. There's a lot of - very popular - livestreamers that make pretty racists, ableist and sexist jokes, and they are perceived well by the chat (twitch chat is quite something). I personally find those jokes stupid and also wouldn't hesitate to tell people I know not to use them. But no one in the scene stops being friends with someone because of their persona, or if they've had a slipup and said something bad. I don't believe it if anyone claims that they've never said anything offensive. Just that we are not viewed by millions of eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the PDP stream slur. But I think often things are blown out of proportion - for example, the reason he is called anti-Semitic is because of the fivrr video where he paid someone to call Keemstar anti-Semitic as a joke ("Death to all Jews - subscribe to Keemstar" but everyone is leaving out that second part).

While PDP is also frustrating me, he's also just a human with a crazy amount of pressure to perform. And suddenly a lot more eyes than his subscribers (who like his humour) are on him; him not performing cost him his deal with Maker, Revelmode, his YT Red series and (for reasons I don't know) he stopped working with his editors. Call me naive and a privileged white girl but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[...]
Good for you if you have become desensitized to misogynism and racist slurs, it's not like that's exactly the problem with someone with a big platform catering to and encouraging that behavior.
[...]

*Long time lurker, hi. Also probably unpopular opinions incoming*

To start then.

I would be more receptive to accusations of Felix being racist/nazi if the term wasn't thrown around like candy these days. Mark my words, at this rate, in a few years the term will have lost all meaning and real racism will go unchecked because noone will take it seriously anymore.

It's honestly the reason why I personally distanced myself from the left, while still upholding liberal values.

I'd also be more receptive to it if the "Phandom" didn't have a real and serious problem with wanting to police and judge who the guys hang out with. It seems they can't spend time/collab with anyone with complaints these days. Even previous Golden Boy Anthony has seemingly fallen from grace these days.

If you really think Felix is the "poster child of the alt reich", then please. PLEASE. Step away from the keyboard. Go outside, take a walk. Call mum or dad so they can give you a reality check. Just STOP and think for a moment.

*I do think the [censored by moderator] comment was wrong, but calling hima racist for a comment amidst gamer rage is ridicilous. I also think Felix is 100% done with the sjw movement after the wsj article.*

^Textbook example of desensitization.

You've made it quite clear that you think we are bad people for having our opinion and for not being upset about the issue.
The issue being - people we don't know hanging out with people we don't know. You might call it desensitised, I call it a healthy distance.
That is why some people on here are having issues with cognitive dissonance (I like Dan and Phil - I don't like PDP - But Dan and Phil like PDP) and are personally struggling. You know what? I am perfectly fine that they are hanging out with him. We don't know how many times they go and hang out with friends and how open they can be during those meetings, so I am pretty sure they had a great time.

If I had to sit down and think about how I can live with having knowledge of someone saying a bad word everytime that happened, I would do a lot of sitting down and a very little bit of living and actively being a better person. Telling people they are desensitised and then moving on to discussing with people you rather like isn't gonna help, for example.

The thing is, we're not gonna get a solution here. It's not like Dan's gonna reopen his tumblr and write us a novel about why they went to that birthday party. So I'm sorry for moving on with my live. I rather have a positive influence on the people around me because that might actually lead to change, instead of discussing people I don't know meeting people I don't know, in a forum with people I don't know.

[blackdenim]

I'm genuinely surprised that people are so mad at Deppy for going to Marzia's party. They were invited, by Marzia, to HER birthday party. They like her. So they went. Yes, obviously they knew Felix was going to be there but they have said and done nothing to indicate that they are still friends with him. Dan said he was going to see his friends PJ, Sophie and Marzia and did NOT include Felix in that list of friends.
What are they supposed to do? Tell Marzia "We really like you but we can't be friends any more because your boyfriend is an asshole."?
It's not fair to expect them so drop friends just because the friends associate with problematic people.

Yes you're right. However, from my POV (I don't want to speak for anyone else), the picture with Dan right next to Felix and posing blowing the candles out playfully like that doesn't indicate 'I am here to celebrate Marzia's birthday and I am going to have an awkward conversation with Felix about his behaviour and hope it will be better in the future'. It indicates that they are still the best of friends and no conversation has taken place at all.

Of course it's stupid to infer something from a picture like that but I dunno... this is an issue I feel strongly about. I wish Dan just hadn't said anything in his LS to be honest, the fact that he knows that Felix is a problem but doesn't care honestly bothers me more than if he just... didn't think it was a problem.

[dancy]

I'm curious if Dan will bring up Felix at all during tomorrow's liveshow or whether he'll avoid that topic altogether. Surely he knows that being photographed and publicly associating with Felix makes him and Phil look bad (regardless of people not tweeting them about it), so I wonder if he has prepared any kind of excuse/defense. Though to be honest I do think it's more likely he'll say something like "Oh yeah, Marzia's birthday party, that was fun, we watched a horror movie and played Truth Bombs" and then move on to another subject.

I agree that they probably are out to Melix and I don't know whether Felix has made any homophobic comments in the past (wouldn't surprise me) but I did notice that he left a comment on one of Marzia's instagram posts yesterday that simply said "lol gay" which kinda rubbed me the wrong way and is yet another example of his "edgy" humor (and completely unrelated to the picture which was just one of her and their dog on a couch) . I know plenty of straight people like that who use the word "gay" as a joke and generally don't take homosexuality seriously and as someone who is a part of the LGBT+ community, I don't like being around those kind of people, so it makes me wonder how D&P deal with that.

[thewaytobehappy]

I think what LtrllySusan says about distance might very will be it. I see so many people getting so invested in the personal lives of people they're a fan of, not just DnP, but in general. It always confuses me, maybe because I never felt that. I'm 29 now, but even as a teenager at the height of my Rammstein stanning all I wanted to know was their names and when I'd get to see them play live.
I'm sometimes quite shocked at how invasive and bold fandom is in this age of social media.

As a result I also had no strong feelings towards the pic, beyond hoping Marzia had a fun birthday. We don't even really know how close they actually are anyway.

[lishachi]

I'm genuinely surprised that people are so mad at Deppy for going to Marzia's party. They were invited, by Marzia, to HER birthday party. They like her. So they went. Yes, obviously they knew Felix was going to be there but they have said and done nothing to indicate that they are still friends with him. Dan said he was going to see his friends PJ, Sophie and Marzia and did NOT include Felix in that list of friends.
What are they supposed to do? Tell Marzia "We really like you but we can't be friends any more because your boyfriend is an asshole."?
It's not fair to expect them so drop friends just because the friends associate with problematic people.

I think the thing is that people who are fans of deppy (us lot) respect them, some of us have grown with them, they've had positive influences on our lives, etc. we like them, as people, we want good things for them, we want them to do good in whatever they do. So when they associate themselves with people (or in this case, a person with a reputation on youtube, who has been racist aswell as many other things) it's disheartening to some, I think. I'm not sure if that's the right word. It's kind of like, you see someone who you respect, who you like, who then goes and hangs out with someone (even if just in the same room) who you don't respect/like/care for, for whatever reason. And that, for me, does feel a little like 'oh'. Kind of disappointed, kind of confused, questioning why they're doing it, why they're around that person. Does that make sense??

I respect them a lot and I trust them. I like them as people. I think they're genuinely nice people. And the association with someone who hasn't been nice (understatement) personally just makes the whole thing seem kinda weird and off. We don't know their relationship with Felix as it's not been talked about much as far as I'm aware (if it has let me know) Hopefully we'll get some clarity in a liveshow.

I don't think they should drop friends by any means, especially with people who are genuinely nice, such as Marzia, PJ etc. It will be interesting to see if Felix is brought up again, especially by Dan. I'm not sure how he is going to talk about it, considering many people are no longer fans of Felix, and from what I've read here and heard, for good reason.

Questions! Do you guys think it was a good idea for Dan to mention Felix in his liveshow? Do you think he should of kept quiet? Do you think that the reaction would be the same if just the picture was uploaded and no mention of Felix was made prior?

(Also sorry if this didn't make much sense, I'm still sick and my head is woozy, I hope this doesn't come across as rude or uneducated. Feel free to agree/disagree!)

[alittledizzy]

I think what LtrllySusan says about distance might very will be it. I see so many people getting so invested in the personal lives of people they're a fan of, not just DnP, but in general. It always confuses me, maybe because I never felt that. I'm 29 now, but even as a teenager at the height of my Rammstein stanning all I wanted to know was their names and when I'd get to see them play live.
I'm sometimes quite shocked at how invasive and bold fandom is in this age of social media

To me, it makes perfect sense that this issue is something people view personally; the conflict isn't in trying to control Dan and Phil's actions so much as expressing the type of person they, as fans, want to invest their time and energy into. Some people don't care about the morality and ethics of the people/groups/etc that they're a fan of; some do. Some people want their escapist past times to be something they non-critically enjoy, some people want to approach fandom with the same standards they'd have for people in their own life. There's no correct or incorrect way to be a fan and no point in trying to police how someone else 'does' fandom. It's just as okay to be invested as it is to not be invested.

(I would also argue that coming to the defense of Dan and Phil or Felix, and passionately stating why you don't think people should be upset is just as invested as making the opposite argument, though. Also, I'm not accusing you or anyone of trying to police things, I think IDB is one of the places that happens least, but I still feel like it's a good time to reiterate that point.)

[JLynne]

Shifting gears a little.... Marzia write on her blog marziaslife.com that they had played the "OG version" of Truth Bombs at PJ and Sophie's place "years ago." I didn't realize that this game had been floating around Phil's head for that long. I wonder what that OG version looked like?

[onetruetrash]

I'm a pretty firm believer that they are together (aka you can pry my beliefs from my cold dead hands), but this idea seriously. plagues. me. So 'if' they are together... who's in the know? Have they had all their friends swear under oath on their first born child and sign a NDA with their blood? Do they deny it to their peers? Do they have to tiptoe around those that don't know? Or are they so just used to having to cover everything up that this is second nature to them?

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks about this. I know sometime in 2015, someone asked Louis if was phan was real and she said "honestly no one knows". Also someone who is friends a certain someone who used to be friends with Dan and Phil said they were together, but they were mentally ill and believed things about Dan and Phil that weren't true. Honestly, I'd believe it if Dan and Phil were the only ones who knew about their relationship and I'd believe it if a bunch of YouTubers were in on it. I feel like it could go either way.