Dan & Phil Part 63: hitting you with our gay agenda

Our two favourite full time internet nerds who never go outside!
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hello9217
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I'll preface this with I fully believe that they are together just so everyone knows my bias:
I'm not going to say this is 100% phan proof but I think it's also wrong to dismiss it as nothing. This year has brought both dan and phil opening up a bit more to us, the audience. From sharing a bit more of the personal stuff to shedding off brandings that just can't hold anymore to make way for showing a little more of themselves on camera.

Growing up I never thought to bring my friends with me to christmas but obviously I know some people do do this. But does a 30 year old man bring his 26 year old friend, who he has lived with for the past almost 6 years and just moved into their third home together, home for Christmas where they will be surrounded by family? Do they fly there together to see one of their families? Like Phil always brings up how large his family is and so it's not just Kath and Nigel, it's the entire Lester clan, along with Dan and Cornelia. Dan honestly has no reason to be there other than he likes Phil and his family and they wanted to spend the festive season together.

To dismiss this whole thing as a casual hangout between two bros is honestly underestimating this whole thing. It means something that they used to stray so far from any plausibility of phan being a thing to now not really caring what we see and how we interpret things. They know how we are and yet for the first time they are okay with the implications of their actions and that makes me extremely happy to know that they are more comfortable within themselves.
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blackdenim
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I'm enjoying this discussion and I think it can be seen both ways: whether or not you see Dan going up to IOM as 'proof' (or part of proof) they're in a relationship depends on how you see their relationship as a whole: like it'll just support your existing bias?

I personally am torn. On one hand, I don't think it's an exclusively coupley thing to spend this time together. Anecdotally, I'm just back from a week with my best friend and her family, who live 2 and a half hours away from me, as I like to spend some time around Christmas with them (I've even spent Christmas Day with them before, in years when my own family has been fragmented and I've felt there was nowhere I wanted to go`), and that's because she and I and her family are all extremely close - I see them as an extension of my own family and it's nice to spend the holidays with them, particularly since my parents are seperated and I'm not very close to my own mum so it's nice to spend time in a family unit with a maternal presence.

So if you're an 'anti', you could easily argue that Dan sees the Lesters as part of his own family, he's not particularly close to his 'real' family (or at least he doesn't seem to like spending extended periods of time with them) and he didn't want to be in the flat for a few days at Christmas by himself. More definitive 'proof' would be if he stayed for Christmas Day, or if Phil now goes down with him to (wherever Dan's family live, I can't remember).

On the other hand, most people don't have the incredibly complex family situation I do, and would just go and spend time with their boyfriend or girlfriend right before Christmas because... why not!? And my heart is so full and happy at the thought of them having a lovely time coupled up in the IOM pre-Christmas, and it's so sweet to think of them there together having family time with the Lesters.

I mean, actually whether they're together or not the sentiment still stands. It's incredibly lovely that the Lesters have clearly taken Dan into their family and that he sees himself as one of them. I hope they're all having a great time and are really happy <3

(Clearly I shouldn't go on IDB after a bottle of wine I'm extremely emotional and happy for Dan and Phil right now)
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KatjaZoe
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blackdenim wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:49 am I'm enjoying this discussion and I think it can be seen both ways: whether or not you see Dan going up to IOM as 'proof' (or part of proof) they're in a relationship depends on how you see their relationship as a whole: like it'll just support your existing bias?

I personally am torn. On one hand, I don't think it's an exclusively coupley thing to spend this time together. Anecdotally, I'm just back from a week with my best friend and her family, who live 2 and a half hours away from me, as I like to spend some time around Christmas with them (I've even spent Christmas Day with them before, in years when my own family has been fragmented and I've felt there was nowhere I wanted to go`), and that's because she and I and her family are all extremely close - I see them as an extension of my own family and it's nice to spend the holidays with them, particularly since my parents are seperated and I'm not very close to my own mum so it's nice to spend time in a family unit with a maternal presence.

So if you're an 'anti', you could easily argue that Dan sees the Lesters as part of his own family, he's not particularly close to his 'real' family (or at least he doesn't seem to like spending extended periods of time with them) and he didn't want to be in the flat for a few days at Christmas by himself. More definitive 'proof' would be if he stayed for Christmas Day, or if Phil now goes down with him to (wherever Dan's family live, I can't remember).

On the other hand, most people don't have the incredibly complex family situation I do, and would just go and spend time with their boyfriend or girlfriend right before Christmas because... why not!? And my heart is so full and happy at the thought of them having a lovely time coupled up in the IOM pre-Christmas, and it's so sweet to think of them there together having family time with the Lesters.

I mean, actually whether they're together or not the sentiment still stands. It's incredibly lovely that the Lesters have clearly taken Dan into their family and that he sees himself as one of them. I hope they're all having a great time and are really happy <3

(Clearly I shouldn't go on IDB after a bottle of wine I'm extremely emotional and happy for Dan and Phil right now)
Thank you for putting what I was trying to say in my original post into much better words! :ribena: I'm not always the best at translating my thoughts into words lol.

Also I completely agree with what you said about how different people see it in different ways to support their own bias. I think this is not only true for this situation, but for a lot of things that happen within the phandom.

I've seen some people replying to my earlier post bringing this up, so I would also like to clarify that I agree with everyone saying that the reason they're so excited about this because it's an example of how much more open they've been this year. That's why I said it's still cute either way, meaning whether they're being more open in terms of a relationship or just how they naturally act around each other as best friends. Def not "just bros" -- whether or not they are boyfriends, they are clearly both the most important people in each other's lives -- there's no doubting that. So I'm definitely in support of them feeling they can share more of their real interactions with us.
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malday
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alittledizzy wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:18 am I think another thing to keep in mind is that people who think Dan and Phil are together aren't hinging every move on something being proof or not proof; their relationship is a given to me, I do not question it, I don't need reassurances of something that I have no reason to doubt to begin with... therefore I do not view things like this as something that needs to fall into a category of what it proves or how deeply it proves something. Instead I just appreciate it for what it is (progress in terms of how they address the audience and how comfortable they seem to feel, as secretstanner said and get excited based on that. :)

also, what captainspacecoat said.
I was just about to write something similar. I think the only people who are taking this as proof, out of all the things Dan and Phil have done throughout the years, are the people who are unsure or need constant reassurance. But this is two adults in a long term relationship not a soap opera where they break up and make up every week.
To me their relationship is a constant, their relationship with the audience is what is changing.

And at this point arguments that involve comparing Dan and Phil's life to one's own life experience seem so repetitive and redundant to me because no one has lived Dan and Phil's unique life. Not to mention that one's experience is affected by your sexuality and how open you could live your life.
onetruetrash
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Oh no I'm back. I only returned because people on the other forum were talking about the discussion on here so I figured I'd put my two cents in.

Honestly I don't see why Dan being on holiday with Phil's family is really significant. I mean, he went on vacation with them earlier this year multiple times. Is it because it's during the holiday season? Even then, that's not really a big deal. Holidays aren't very huge deals, at least to me. And it's not like they've been vague about Dan being on holiday with the Lester's. Again, he did that earlier this year. Can someone please explain why this is important?
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malday wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:17 am
alittledizzy wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:18 am I think another thing to keep in mind is that people who think Dan and Phil are together aren't hinging every move on something being proof or not proof; their relationship is a given to me, I do not question it, I don't need reassurances of something that I have no reason to doubt to begin with... therefore I do not view things like this as something that needs to fall into a category of what it proves or how deeply it proves something. Instead I just appreciate it for what it is (progress in terms of how they address the audience and how comfortable they seem to feel, as secretstanner said and get excited based on that. :)
I was just about to write something similar. I think the only people who are taking this as proof, out of all the things Dan and Phil have done throughout the years, are the people who are unsure or need constant reassurance. But this is two adults in a long term relationship not a soap opera where they break up and make up every week.
To me their relationship is a constant, their relationship with the audience is what is changing.
Definitely agree with both of these posts especially the part I bolded, but from a slightly different perspective and what exactly the nature of the relationship is (as both posters are people who think dan and phil are in a relationship). I, on the other hand, don't really have an opinion either way. Well, I have opinions obviously, but I am neither in the 100% they-are-in-a-relationship boat, nor am I an "anti" (I use the anti definition as someone who is opposed to the idea they are in a relationship, doesn't like the idea they could be in a relationship, tries to discourage other's opinions that they are in a relationship, etc.)

As mentioned in the posts above, I do not take any one thing as proof that they are together - I think overall context is important, and a trip to see Phil's family over the christmas holidays isn't "proof" of anything (not hating on anyone who thinks it is! I was also very happy to see that Dan is with the Lesters, and if this is what convinced anyone that they are dating then that's cool with me!). In the same way that alittledizzy and malday mention how they don't need constant reassurances that they are a couple, I don't need constant reassurances that they are or aren't a couple. I would be really happy for them if they are a couple, and really happy for them if they are really good friends that love each other but only in a platonic way.

I hope this doesn't come across as me arguing against the people who are 100% sure they are dating. I can completely understand why people hold this view, it's just not me personally. Basically, I would be 0% surprised if they admitted they were together, and also not very surprised if there was ever proof they are only friends. I am just so happy for them (and for us...) that they are willing to show us so much more and not hide. It's so much healthier for them I think, and has made them so much happy (at least based on what we've seen on camera this year in particular, they are both so much freer and happier).

Question for those that are certain they are dating - Would you be upset if it turned out they weren't dating? Not upset in an ugh my fav ship isn't together whoa is me type of way, but have they acted in a way that you wouldn't like them as people if they weren't together? I'm genuinely curious, because I'd like to be aware if they've done anything dodgy. Sorry if this has already been discussed a million times - I don't want to start a whole queerbaiting discussion, was just wondering if there was one certain deal-breaker for anyone?
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alittledizzy
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This is really cute, I like watching Phil's hand kind of hover about.
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alittledizzy wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:00 am This is really cute, I like watching Phil's hand kind of hover about.
I just posted but since I haven't actually said anything about today's video, just gonna add on here that I loved this part. Also Phil putting his other hand up to his face and giggling.

And the end during the endscreen where Phil was like something along the lines of "Here's our other channels. We make videos without each other.. sometimes". Lmao so self-aware. He knows they basically have 3 joint channels now, and doesn't give a shit
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whatdoiknow wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:58 am Question for those that are certain they are dating - Would you be upset if it turned out they weren't dating? Not upset in an ugh my fav ship isn't together whoa is me type of way, but have they acted in a way that you wouldn't like them as people if they weren't together? I'm genuinely curious, because I'd like to be aware if they've done anything dodgy. Sorry if this has already been discussed a million times - I don't want to start a whole queerbaiting discussion, was just wondering if there was one certain deal-breaker for anyone?
If it turned out that they were never dating then I would be upset that the v-day video was in fact a prank because that IS queerbait and saying that two people in a same sex relationship can be used as a punchline to some twisted prank. You can factor that down to them being young and stupid but that would still hurt.
IK dan and phil don't do that now btw.

I got into dan and phil because I was interested in their relationship. I was intrigued because after watching 1 video I thought they were a couple and was surprised to find out they weren't, or at least not out. If they came out as not a couple I would still watch them but become a more casual viewer.

Also ik you said you don't want to start a queerbait discussion but it is very prevalent when discussing a topic like this.
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whatdoiknow wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:58 am Question for those that are certain they are dating - Would you be upset if it turned out they weren't dating? Not upset in an ugh my fav ship isn't together whoa is me type of way, but have they acted in a way that you wouldn't like them as people if they weren't together? I'm genuinely curious, because I'd like to be aware if they've done anything dodgy. Sorry if this has already been discussed a million times - I don't want to start a whole queerbaiting discussion, was just wondering if there was one certain deal-breaker for anyone?
Quick response. Queer baiting topic hate it! Not someone who thinks their dating but here’s my two cents.
How I view it nothing about how they interact on camera makes me see their relationship more than friends. When I was a causal viewer nothing spoke to me that they were anything more. What made me question what they were was the things I later found out myself, they didn’t make me set out to find evidence of a relationship. If they are nothing more than friends which is what they said on camera for a long time and if I believe different that’s on me for choosing to believe that. I see a lot of people say If they arnt more than friends the way they act is queer baiting but I don’t see how? Girls could have the same relationship with their friend and no one bats a eyelid! Why is it different for them? Coz their males?.

I think people really confuse queer baiting with fan service or ship baiting.

If they weren’t in a relationship I would not feel mislead by the way they are in their videos. They don’t makes thumb nails of them almost kissing, or titles like are we dating? I would continue to watch them and accept that I deluded my self.
Now if they both more importantly dan! We’re to be straight I would 100% feel queer baited. And would stop watching because it’s disgusting. I don’t believe them to be straight so I’m not worried about that. But this is my opinion some people may think completely different :shrug:
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Since Dan is practically an adopted northerner at this point, feels like a good time to observe the one year anniversary of one of this forums greatest achievements... the transcription cracking of #cardgate.
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From Part 35. Classic.
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onetruetrash wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:47 am Oh no I'm back. I only returned because people on the other forum were talking about the discussion on here so I figured I'd put my two cents in.

Honestly I don't see why Dan being on holiday with Phil's family is really significant. I mean, he went on vacation with them earlier this year multiple times. Is it because it's during the holiday season? Even then, that's not really a big deal. Holidays aren't very huge deals, at least to me. And it's not like they've been vague about Dan being on holiday with the Lester's. Again, he did that earlier this year. Can someone please explain why this is important?
I mean, saying "holidays aren't very huge deals, at least to me" is hardly an argument at all. To many people, holidays are important - I would argue Christmas is definitely an important holiday to Phil, who has talked multiple times about his love for the season. And I think it's obvious that family is very important to him as well, so having Dan with him and his family in the lead-up seems significant to me. The two of them travelled together to an island on the other side of the country to spend a few days of the Christmas period together, when usually that is not something they do (or at least, it's not something we're aware of them doing). As far as we know, they never visit each other's families around Christmas (aside from 2009), so it literally is significant that this year Dan is visiting the Lesters.

And just because Dan has holidayed with the Lesters twice already this year, how does that diminish this particular trip? If anything, it makes it more significant as it becomes obvious that spending long periods of time with the Lesters is a regular thing that Dan does. So far this year he has spent Phil's birthday on the IoM for the first time as far as we know, spent weeks in Florida with the Lesters for the first time as far as we know (aside from last year, but that could be excused as convenient given that they were going to America anyway for tatinof, and they didn't stay on for weeks), and now Dan's spending some time with the Lesters on the IoM during Christmas for the first time as far as we know. And they're sharing that with those most dedicated of fans in their own very subtle way.

This is not something they've ever done before, so understandably people are viewing it as significant? It's literally not a reach to think that Dan is spending time with the Lesters at Christmas because he and Phil are boyfriends, given that it is perfectly plausible (and common) for people in relationships to spend time with one another's family at Christmas. And it is perfectly understandable that people are excited about it, as a) the world is shite but this is a lovely, wholesome thing and the image of Dan and Phil spending part of Christmas together with Phil's family is just overwhelmingly Good, and b) this has never happened before, so we're excited about it.
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onetruetrash wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:47 am Oh no I'm back. I only returned because people on the other forum were talking about the discussion on here so I figured I'd put my two cents in.

Honestly I don't see why Dan being on holiday with Phil's family is really significant. I mean, he went on vacation with them earlier this year multiple times. Is it because it's during the holiday season? Even then, that's not really a big deal. Holidays aren't very huge deals, at least to me. And it's not like they've been vague about Dan being on holiday with the Lester's. Again, he did that earlier this year. Can someone please explain why this is important?
I would say, based on the general unified sentiment behind most of the explanations already posted answering this topic, the significance of this trip comes from the significance behind the level of comfort and commitment that goes into attending family gatherings to begin with- especially of being someone who isn't part of the immediate family being readily invited to spend time with them and freely accepting that invitation in a reciprocal gesture of willingness to want to be there. Family dynamics differ between individuals and they're not always pleasant to engage with in situations where even attending your own family function might be a matter of uneasy obligation. The recent posts including Dan however suggest more than an obligation towards business or propriety, as per usual when it comes to Dan’s own commentary and posts regarding time spent with the Lester’s. It’s a connection where the line of business partners is noticeably blurred and diminished in favor of being seen as a member of the family himself. There’s that old saying about how you can choose your friends but not your family, but it’s moments like these where it’s become obvious Dan has clearly chosen the Lester’s as part of his and the Lester’s have done the same. It's also a continued demonstration of their (his and Phil's) regard and trust in one another which I think has always been a given, but it's one that has now become more visible to the audience in ways that used to be noticeably more discreet. They still obviously value and prioritize their privacy, but it seems as if they're becoming increasingly relaxed in sharing subtle glimpses of their lives together when not on camera in a manner easier to control and more natural to engage with than say a ditl where they might feel pressured to frame each part of the day through the strict filter of entertainment while having to be ever mindful of what they do and do not want to include for general viewing. There’s something simultaneously exhausting and intimidating about the thought of filming a vlog where increased scrutiny and the pressure to be even mildly interesting can be too much to tackle with any confidence. Instead, here, you have small tidbits of moments and comments that together create a telling narrative that no matter the interpretation or perspective it's viewed through suggests an open, natural, genial familiarity and mutual comfort which to me seems much more evocative than any ditl.

It’s not that the holidays make a difference in something that has clearly always been there, it’s that the vibe of such a family oriented season Phil has exclusively spent with his own family (to our knowledge anyway) coupled with the blasé attitude to allow what might otherwise be private to be shared with others, albeit on their own terms, amplifies its impact. Factor in the affection and compassion many people have towards Dan and Phil as individuals and as a duo- people who also find inspiration and encouragement in witnessing the trajectory of an alliance which has survived through whatever testing challenges arise between sharing living quarters and careers through bouts of differing opinions, opposing work ethics, bad days, etc.- and you have an understandable outpouring of enthusiastic sentiment whenever the strength of that bond is once again demonstrated, be it a moment of playful banter in a video or in a tweet showing Dan in the background of a looping clip where he’s clearly, willingly offering his time and presence at another Lester family holiday. Sentiments that are, again, maybe amplified by the season and the projected feelings of those looking for something similar to what Dan and Phil appear to have in terms of affection, chosen family and unwavering mutual trust. It’s demonstrative of something profound and enduring whether you want to call it platonic or not and these small subtle moments serve as refreshing and powerful reminders of it.

Well, my own two cents anyway.
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I've been very busy with work and life but finally got a chance to check in here today and I just have to say my heart is so SO full seeing confirmation Dan is with the Lesters in IOM! :love1:

Very interesting discussion around "proof" vs non-proof... I agree with those who've said it's about their relationship with their audience changing, they feel more ok letting us more dedicated fans in on more (because I do also see it as intentional), and with those saying this event just adds to the whole context of their relationship to one another. At this point, no one is able to argue that they are just business partners, this pre-xmas trip demonstrates how much they GENUINELY enjoy each other's company. Whether you think that's as best friends or as a couple, I guess that's up to each person to decide for themselves as long as no blatant confirmations are made, but this absolutely highlights how much they actually enjoy being together and that is undeniable regardless of which side of the fence you fall on and gosh darnit that just warms the cold lonely recesses of my heart. What a lovely christmas gift. I'm so freaking happy they are relaxing a bit with us, their audience, both in and now outside of videos. Talk about some fucking character development! :stan:

Personally, I add this alongside everything else we know about them, their interactions and their history together and I'd say it's more likely an indication of a romantic relationship than a platonic one; but hey, that's just my own bias based on my perspective and worldviews.

As to the question of if I'd feel intentionally mislead if it turns out they aren't a couple - no. I don't see anything in their videos that to me, looks like them leading their audience to that conclusion. As someone brought up already, I would also be pissed about the v-day vid. Sure, they never posted it and were young and dumb but if you've seen it, it's clear that at least a little effort went into making it all for intentionally queer-baiting. In other words, it's not like one stupid joke they made one time, it was thought out and that's what would hurt for me if it came out they really never were a couple. However, if one of them came out as straight then yes, I'd feel very intentionally mislead after the year we've had because both of them (Dan in particular) have really upped their queer mentions and all the innuendos, it would feel very gross and wrong if that were the case. Luckily, I seriously doubt it is! :prideflag:

Oh, and I thought the video was good. Not a fav but I enjoyed it all the same. Yesterday's golf was top-notch for me though!

On one last note, thank you for those of you who brought up Phil's hitler hair. I wasn't able to put my finger on what exactly I hated so much or why it made me uncomfortable on an almost visceral level but I read that part of the thread here and now, all I can think is "Yep... That's it. That's definitely why." I really hope Phil or someone close to him can have the same epiphany... because, dear god, now I can't see anything else and it needs to change.
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If they are spending Christmas holidays together, except for the Christmas Eve itself, how many days did they spend apart this year? What is the longest period this particular year?
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sparkle wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:37 am also because I cant rejoin IDB without some form of conspiracy theory here we go :tinfoil:
SOOOO based on the flintiness of the last few months, plus just half of gamingmas that has changed my life and them saving 'the best for last'. I am predicting hoping praying that the video they put up on christmas eve has an undeniable #PhanConfirmed. Nothing major just one comment, because I seriously need a pay off :lol: (I just thought maybe they could do a couples Truth Bombs featuring Martyn and Cornelia and I'd honestly die) but in all seriousness. If they're saving the best to last I could see that because it would mean that they could side step any questions for a while because of it being christmas. And then they can control their responses?

or am I just over excited
I don't think there will be any definitely phan proof this Christmas, or before the tour. After all, they'll be travelling to places that aren't so keen on homosexuality. That thought makes me feel pretty relaxed right now and I can just take in whatever they decide to share.
At the same time, I'm pretty terrified for what's happening after the tour - which seems like a last, big effort to meet fans everywhere, to give everyone a chance to see them, before... yeah, before what? I think they won't be travelling as much anymore after the tour. Is it because there will be a dog, #phandivorce, they stop with YT all together, I don't know. But for now, I'd say let's be happy with what the year has been giving us, cause if you don't expect, you don't get disappointed :thumb:

And we haven't gotten a festive Sims video, so that might come today or tomorrow.
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LtrllySusan wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 am At the same time, I'm pretty terrified for what's happening after the tour - which seems like a last, big effort to meet fans everywhere, to give everyone a chance to see them, before... yeah, before what? I think they won't be travelling as much anymore after the tour. Is it because there will be a dog, #phandivorce, they stop with YT all together, I don't know. But for now, I'd say let's be happy with what the year has been giving us, cause if you don't expect, you don't get disappointed :thumb
I’ve had the same thoughts, especially as Dan said in a live show (I think the one before last) something along the lines of this would be the last chance to see them on tour or it’s something they wouldn’t do again? Why would that be? Maybe they’re getting older and they’re thinking of quitting while they’re ahead? Maybe they’re doing a last tour to set themselves up comfortably financially so that if YT continues to decline they don’t need to worry about money? Maybe they don’t want to live their lives looking over their shoulders while in public any more?

Re: Proof - would it be so sad if we never know one way or the other? I kind of like not knowing for sure (although I do believe they are together. I think it’s unlikely an agoraphobe like Dan would schlep his ass over to the IOM for a platonic bro-mate)
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Stakhanov
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Interesting discussion.
I agree with about everything in your post @blackdenim.
Basically all we know by that picture is that Dan is spending time with Phil and his family, in a holiday period. I don't think you can arrive at the conclusion that they are likely a romantic couple from that. It fits both the narrative of them being together or them being good friends. It's highly ambigious and if feel this is the sort of "event" where everybody is prone to fall victim to their own confirmation bias. You will interpret this situation very differently when you think they are friends compared to when you think they are a romantic couple, and in both cases you can bring up some reasonable assumptions and involve all the things they've said and done before to argue your view. But nothing that comes close to proof of any kind, imo. We're still in the dark.
Not that It really matters much to me what the true nature of their relationship is to enjoy Cornelia's instagram story. She literally saved 2017 :lol: :love2: ;) Whatever it signifies, a lot of us seem to like it a lot and it inspires a lot of conversation about them. I agree with @hello9217 in that's it's on the whole an unusual thing to do, but their whole life, shared history and friendship is extra-ordinary. I've had a friend spend the hollidays with me too, and just this year a friend invited me to celebrate christmas with the family of a friend of his which i hardly know, in Finland. I declined, but just want to point out that it's not like it doesn't at all happen that you end up celebrating with people that aren't your family or your husband. How (and if) people celebrate christmas varies a lot to start with and I do feel that we are projecting a very traditional blanket on how we assume the Lesters and Howells celibrate, that may or may not be accurate.
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AroboticPhil
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LadyLackless wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:46 am
LtrllySusan wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:12 am At the same time, I'm pretty terrified for what's happening after the tour - which seems like a last, big effort to meet fans everywhere, to give everyone a chance to see them, before... yeah, before what? I think they won't be travelling as much anymore after the tour. Is it because there will be a dog, #phandivorce, they stop with YT all together, I don't know. But for now, I'd say let's be happy with what the year has been giving us, cause if you don't expect, you don't get disappointed :thumb
I’ve had the same thoughts, especially as Dan said in a live show (I think the one before last) something along the lines of this would be the last chance to see them on tour or it’s something they wouldn’t do again? Why would that be? Maybe they’re getting older and they’re thinking of quitting while they’re ahead? Maybe they’re doing a last tour to set themselves up comfortably financially so that if YT continues to decline they don’t need to worry about money? Maybe they don’t want to live their lives looking over their shoulders while in public any more?

Re: Proof - would it be so sad if we never know one way or the other? I kind of like not knowing for sure (although I do believe they are together. I think it’s unlikely an agoraphobe like Dan would schlep his ass over to the IOM for a platonic bro-mate)
Tbh I'm not worrying a lot about what happens next. A tour like TIIIT is a huge event and definitely not something you do very often so If I were them and doing this tour in 2018, I probably wouldn't think I'd be doing something as big again for at least a few years (Dan even said that after tatinof he already thought 'that was it'). And I don't think they already have plans to retire from youtube next year or any time soon, but I do find it plausible that atm Dan doesn't really project himself doing another worldwide tour in 3 or 4 years and many reasons could contribute to that (but like not necessarily a definite one) : it's too far ahead to know where they'll be at, they might not be as popular, they might not want to do this kind of live event anymore, they might not want to travel so much, they might start to settle down, etc ... But it doesn't mean they already have a definite plan like "let's stop youtube on january first 2019", "we'll have 2 kids by 2020" or "we're splitting up after TIIT".
I see it more as a "we have a general feeling that a tour like that won't happen again because of where we think our life is headed and where we're at right now (but you never know)".

Plus, like with most things they do, I think wherever they take their careers next, it's gonna be very slow and progressive. Maybe they'll stay on youtube but with time it'll become more of a casual-twice-a-month thing and not their primary source of income (expand that IRL store brand guys) , maybe they'll stay in the public eye but go back to being presenters instead (yes I still want the radioshow back), maybe they'll turn to managing and behind the scenes stuff, maybe they'll build a board games empire ... Who knows. I just believe that whatever they do, they won't disappear from social media overnight or start a completely new career because that wouldn't really make sense to me. Entertainment, in whatever form, is what they've always done and probably want to keep doing.
Tl,dr; I'm loving them in 2017 and really excited for 2018! deppy :love2:

edit : also I forgot to add this but I'm on team they're never gonna really come out, (whatever career choices they make) their glass closet is just gonna become more and more transparent, like it's happening now.
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@Elemancy Very insightful I think that explains a lot of why we collectively like these holiday pics so much.

@OhItsElliott HI! Well met, it's nice to see a guy on the forum, we sort of are rare pepe's on here ;) I think we are less than 10% of the fandom.
OhItsElliott wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:33 am
As to the question of if I'd feel intentionally mislead if it turns out they aren't a couple - no. I don't see anything in their videos that to me, looks like them leading their audience to that conclusion. As someone brought up already, I would also be pissed about the v-day vid. Sure, they never posted it and were young and dumb but if you've seen it, it's clear that at least a little effort went into making it all for intentionally queer-baiting. In other words, it's not like one stupid joke they made one time, it was thought out and that's what would hurt for me if it came out they really never were a couple. However, if one of them came out as straight then yes, I'd feel very intentionally mislead after the year we've had because both of them (Dan in particular) have really upped their queer mentions and all the innuendos, it would feel very gross and wrong if that were the case. Luckily, I seriously doubt it is! :prideflag:
Hm, i've given this some thought before and while I wouldn't hold it against them in any significant way it would be harder for me to put trust into their words if they turned out to be a couple. I can understand they might feel that they have good reasons to lie, but they would have lied. Explicitly. Multiple times throughout years. Dedicated a blog on denying that they are a together. That coupled with the fact that they don't shy away from indulging their audience with some homo-erotic content would hurt their credibility with me (making a lot of sexual innuendo, do some things like feeling eachothers heart or play feeding eachother, making a scene in their show that's literaly them acting out fanfic ,...).

I personally don't mind if the V-day prank or anything else because how I see it, it's made at least partly in response and in interaction with people starting to assume they were a couple and shipping them. And i don't think it's inherently wrong to make a thought out joke or sarcastic video about it, even while it can hurt the feelings of people that assume they are together. They don't have a responsibility to take into consideration the thoughts their audience might have about them that aren't reflective of the way they view their relationship. On the other hand everybody can and will probably hold a personal view on whether they think they were intentionally mislead or whether they consider Dan and Phil to be engaged in queerbaiting or shipbaiting. I don't like to use those words because i feel they are ill-defined, usually interpreted differently by different people and there no agreement either on how bad a thing it even is.
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Stakhanov wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:19 pm Hm, i've given this some thought before and while I wouldn't hold it against them in any significant way it would be harder for me to put trust into their words if they turned out to be a couple. I can understand they might feel that they have good reasons to lie, but they would have lied. Explicitly. Multiple times throughout years. Dedicated a blog on denying that they are a together.
That's interesting, I thought there'd be people who would be upset with them if they weren't a couple, but not if they were. You're entitled to your opinion obviously, but I personally have no problem with them lying. If they are in a closeted relationship, they have every right to have lied about it. It's a scary thing to come out, and people have already listed the reasons why many times so I won't get into it. Also, most of the lies were many years ago; but even if they said today that they were not in a relationship, and then it came out in a few years that they actually are, I would not be the least bit mad. Hell, even zalfie outright lied about their relationship and they're a het couple. I just don't have any problem with people in a public setting lying about aspects of their private life. Like, I've even lied about things to my irl friends/family, and I bet most people have.
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malday wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:17 am And at this point arguments that involve comparing Dan and Phil's life to one's own life experience seem so repetitive and redundant to me because no one has lived Dan and Phil's unique life. Not to mention that one's experience is affected by your sexuality and how open you could live your life.
This is a great point and I agree, and I wasn't trying to use my own life to make an argument for D&P not being together, I was just providing an example/context to my point about confirmation bias.

However I think it's interesting that (not just on here, in the Phandom as a whole) if someone says (for example) 'well me and my platonic best friend spend Christmas together and we're not a couple', people will rush over to say that D&P are totally individual and unique, and we shouldn't compare our own, real life relationships with them. But on the other hand, someone can say 'me and my partner have been together for 10 years and have never spent a Christmas together', and often the same people will use that as a way to point out that loads of couples don't spend Christmas together, so the fact that D&P don't, doesn't mean they're not in a relationship.

I'm not really trying to make a point for or against Phan (I'm really on the fence about it, and honestly I don't mind if they're together or not!) I just think that the confirmation bias on both sides of the argument is interesting and leads us to read a lot into what are probably fairly normal/ambiguous events from an outside POV!

PS I'm really impressed my last post was so coherent and spelt correctly I was not expecting that when I read it back this morning :lol:
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Stakhanov wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:19 pmHm, i've given this some thought before and while I wouldn't hold it against them in any significant way it would be harder for me to put trust into their words if they turned out to be a couple. I can understand they might feel that they have good reasons to lie, but they would have lied. Explicitly. Multiple times throughout years. Dedicated a blog on denying that they are a together. That coupled with the fact that they don't shy away from indulging their audience with some homo-erotic content would hurt their credibility with me (making a lot of sexual innuendo, do some things like feeling eachothers heart or play feeding eachother, making a scene in their show that's literaly them acting out fanfic ,...).
I've lied before in due to people outing/attempting to out me, or hinting that I'm not cis/straight. And that was in a much more personal, non-public situation. I definitely don't blame them one bit for making customerservicedepartment. Though I don't think Dan should've been that rude, I can completely sympathise and don't hold it against him.

I don't know how I'd feel if they turned out to not be a couple. If they weren't together at the time of voldy, I'd want a public apology about that because that would be really shitty of them and would definitely be my biggest issue if they weren't a couple. I'm not sure how I'd feel if one of them was straight (or both). While I agree they've said a lot of stuff that could be interpreted as queer, they're not fictional characters. There's no writer hovering above them making them say this stuff to intentionally lead on their audience, and perhaps some of it could be brushed off if they promised to not do it again. But yeah, there would need to be apologies and changes in behaviour if they weren't a couple, and especially if one/both of them were straight.
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Last week I saw lots of tumblr phan blogs getting questions like “why would Dan and Phil spend the holidays apart if they were really a couple?” Now it’s all “just because they’re spending the holidays together doesn’t mean they’re a couple!!” Sooooo yeah. P self explanatory.

I think so many people (including me) are happy about Dan spending part of the holidays with the Lesters is because it was kinda sad thinking about them being apart for the holidays for another year, especially after this particular year where they’ve come across so committed to each other. Given their super decorated flat and how into the festivities they get, I would bet that they would prefer to spend Christmas Day together, but having to visit their respective families isn’t like a huge hardship so it’s ok. (I thought about this so much I somehow ended up writing a fic about it to get it out of my system and I’m not even a writer for gods sake)

About this as proof -it’s just one more piece of the puzzle imo. To me, trying to argue against this being proof would be like holding a piece of a puzzle and being like “look, it’s blue! It could be the sky, or water, or a piece of clothing, or a wall, or so many things!” which of course is true. But in this case most of the other puzzle pieces have fish on them. So it makes the most sense for the blue piece to be water, right? A lot of the arguments against phan I’ve read sound like “I put together a puzzle with a blue piece like this and it was a baby’s bedroom, so that’s what I think this must be! All the fish must be a painting on the wall or something, silly!” Or “I see the fish but I think we should wait until the puzzle is finished to see what the picture is, I think is still could be the sky.”

Ok I’m done with my analogy, but you get the point. Honestly there’s enough facts to speculate about without bringing in hypothetical situations.
I’m still a giddy little puddle of goo thinking about Dan spending the holidays with the Lester’s. OH one more point I wanted to make - no, they haven’t exactly done the best job of hiding it, but they sure haven’t yelled it from the rooftops that Dan is with Phil up north. I think that’s because this is considered private family time, not something they want associated with “work” (aka what they make public). It’s not “Dan my best buddy bro pal came to visit so he wasn’t bored at home!” which I think they would’ve shared, like Phil is sharing that he’s home. Its not top secret, but it’s still private.
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